Thai Govt Put On The Ropes As Court Deliberates On Decrees' Legality

[CalgaryII]

And this is why the constition needs revamping.

In its current form, it is an existential threat to the Govt.

The chickenshit way the opposition tries to get at the Government via Judges, instead of electorally via the people shows their ......whatever.

Using Judges instead of parliamentary systems to debate the Govt. is seen for what it is.....just shows their weakness.

That was the point, to prevent ANY government from running rough shod over the checks and balances.

To do so again is the reason to change the constitution, all the other reasons are simply window dressing.

Had this been done by a non-military, coup Govt., I might buy your point.

They incorporated mechanisms for coups in a formal way.

That is why this Constitution is an existential threat to a Democratically elected Govt.

[CalgaryII]

And this is why the constition needs revamping.

In its current form, it is an existential threat to the Govt.

The chickenshit way the opposition tries to get at the Government via Judges, instead of electorally via the people shows their ......whatever.

Using Judges instead of parliamentary systems to debate the Govt. is seen for what it is.....just shows their weakness.

So the law needs changing so the government doesn't break the law?

Why doesn't the government just do things within the confines of the law?

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

I wonder.

Wonder no more.

Just because the Opposition scurries to the judges, doesn't imply unlawfullness of Ms. Y. and Co.

They are just being the opposition, in a chickenshit, cowardly manner.

Try mano-mano in parliament.

[Moruya]

This Opposition runs to the courts everytime they don't like something. Trying to show their oppositional positions are unlawful on the Govts. side is hogwash. But I suppose if I was saddled with their electoral weakness, i would resort to Judges also. No point in going to the people. They lose everytime. With respect to Govtl. actions, that is the beauty of this system, as opposed to the USA system. Here, armed with an electoral mandate, the Govt. can take actions to be judged at the next election. With their electorally granted Oppositional weakness, the only way of combatting this electoral majority is via the courts. The voters are taking notice however, and will render their verdict next time around.

This opposition runs to the courts every time this government does something that could be illegal. This government (and some of it's supporters) seem to think that having a majority in parliament means that it can ignore the law.

Indeed, it is pretty standard behaviour for the opposition in Thailand to use the law. The opposition has done this in all Governments of whatever colour. In this case, the ruling party has obviously overstepped the mark again and the law needs to be used by the opposition because it has identified a clear breach. It has nothing to do with electoral success or failure, the opposition is clearly behaving in the way any opposition would work in any democracy. Calgaryll's post follows a pattern of his previous posts in that he does not appear to understand Thai politics.

"..... the law needs to be used by the opposition because it has identified a clear breach."

No it hasn't.

It has become their norm, substituting it for Parliamentary Debate.

The frequency with which they do it alone attests to that.

They must feel they will get a better shake with judges then in Parliament.

That begs some questions.

It is the PTP party that has substitued the use of emergency decree for standard parliamentary process and debate is it not?

[Moruya]

And this is why the constition needs revamping.

In its current form, it is an existential threat to the Govt.

The chickenshit way the opposition tries to get at the Government via Judges, instead of electorally via the people shows their ......whatever.

Using Judges instead of parliamentary systems to debate the Govt. is seen for what it is.....just shows their weakness.

So the law needs changing so the government doesn't break the law?

Why doesn't the government just do things within the confines of the law?

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

I wonder.

Wonder no more.

Just because the Opposition scurries to the judges, doesn't imply unlawfullness of Ms. Y. and Co.

They are just being the opposition, in a chickenshit, cowardly manner.

Try mano-mano in parliament.

The government won't turn up to debate - they know they will lose

[CalgaryII]

And this is why the constition needs revamping. In its current form, it is an existential threat to the Govt. The chickenshit way the opposition tries to get at the Government via Judges, instead of electorally via the people shows their ......whatever. Using Judges instead of parliamentary systems to debate the Govt. is seen for what it is.....just shows their weakness.

That makes me wrong, I always though getting the advice from Learned judges was always better than farmers in the North who understand very little about law, who just sell their votes

Farmers in the South, West and East don't do that?

Getting advice from judges is different than political attacks.

That is what Parliament is for.

[CalgaryII]

And this is why the constition needs revamping.

In its current form, it is an existential threat to the Govt.

The chickenshit way the opposition tries to get at the Government via Judges, instead of electorally via the people shows their ......whatever.

Using Judges instead of parliamentary systems to debate the Govt. is seen for what it is.....just shows their weakness.

You prefer an outright dictatorship where the government can do just what it likes without question?

A parliamentary majority is a form of dictatorship, to be judged at the next election.

The ruling party can act, and be judged accordingly at an appropriate time.

Beats the hell out of that USA system of endless bickering, with no-one able to do anything.

Canada, Australia and other Commonwealth nations function just fine with this type of 'dictatorial' system, as you characterize it.

[Moruya]

And this is why the constition needs revamping.

In its current form, it is an existential threat to the Govt.

The chickenshit way the opposition tries to get at the Government via Judges, instead of electorally via the people shows their ......whatever.

Using Judges instead of parliamentary systems to debate the Govt. is seen for what it is.....just shows their weakness.

You prefer an outright dictatorship where the government can do just what it likes without question?

A parliamentary majority is a form of dictatorship, to be judged at the next election.

The ruling party can act, and be judged accordingly at an appropriate time.

Beats the hell out of that USA system of endless bickering, with no-one able to do anything.

Canada, Australia and other Commonwealth nations function just fine with this type of 'dictatorial' system, as you characterize it.

And if the ruling party decides to break the law by bypassing due process the oppostion should sit there munching cucumber sandwiches? I think not!

[AleG]

It is the PTP party that has substitued the use of emergency decree for standard parliamentary process and debate is it not?

It's really schizoid, isn't it? Calgaryll grills the Dems for not engaging the PTP in a parliamentary debate when their (Dems) complain is that the PTP, illegally, bypassed the parliamentary debate on the bills.

One would expect Calgaryll to grill the PTP for unnecessarily using an emergency decree to avoid a debate, but no-ooo, it's the darn Dems that don't want to debate.

It's completely through the looking glass into Bizarro World.

[Prichard]

Sounds like CalgaryII is with the supports for Thailand to be governed similar to Cambodia which was governed by the same prime minister for more than 26 years. Look at Cambodia now and please tell me what has Cambodia done for its citizens and its own country the past 26+ years?

I hope and pray that Thailand will not see the same fate as Cambodia.

[AleG]

Sounds like CalgaryII is with the supports for Thailand to be governed similar to Cambodia which was governed by the same prime minister for more than 26 years. Look at Cambodia now and please tell me what has Cambodia done for its citizens and its own country the past 26+ years?

I hope and pray that Thailand will not see the same fate as Cambodia.

As you probably have noticed, Thaksin and his band of merry Red Shirts, the bastions of Thai democracy, are big Hun Sen fans. Its another of those "through the looking glass into Bizarro World" things.

[Pib]

This govt is decree happy!!! Why try to pass a law in Parliament when a decree is so much easier and faster...and usually generates less public scrutiny and feedback...except maybe in this case. Maybe the PM's policy for health of the country is: a decree a day keeps the doctor away.

[CalgaryII]

The opposition has tried on several times to engage in debate with the PTP. Unfortunately the PTP can't find anyone in its ranks with the required skills and undemocratically hijacks the debate instead.

It is not the PTP running to the judges, but the Opposition.

Who exactly is avoiding debates here with a skill-deficit.

[whybother]

The opposition has tried on several times to engage in debate with the PTP. Unfortunately the PTP can't find anyone in its ranks with the required skills and undemocratically hijacks the debate instead.

It is not the PTP running to the judges, but the Opposition.

Who exactly is avoiding debates here with a skill-deficit.

PTP are avoiding debate by issuing emergency decrees.

[hellodolly]

And this is why the constition needs revamping.

In its current form, it is an existential threat to the Govt.

The chickenshit way the opposition tries to get at the Government via Judges, instead of electorally via the people shows their ......whatever.

Using Judges instead of parliamentary systems to debate the Govt. is seen for what it is.....just shows their weakness.

And they don't do that in Canada or the United States with there Supreme Courts.

Not sure about Australia but some how I don't think they can allow things to be done just because the party in power stands to gain from it. I am sure they want it to be legal there also.

Where are you from some African third world country where law means nothing?

[hellodolly]

Panic time for the Dems, desperate tactics........the government is moving on financing solutions the Dems did not provide......the Dems are looking at a following 4 year term in the wilderness

No alternative for the Dems but to try and put the brakes on the financing, to slow, if not halt the delivery of solutions by PTP

Not in the interest Thailand or "checks and balances", more a check attempt on funding, in order to avoid the Dems suffering yet another mauling at the next election

Sorry you lost me in your bias towards the Dems.

Did you have some thing to say other than try to put the Dems down if so let us in.

If the Government owes 10 trillion dollars and transfers 2 trillion dollars of that dept to another department they still owe 10 trillion dollars. It seems pretty straight forward to me.

Maybe the PT should have looked at the expense before promising every school kid would have a tablet and every one would have 300 baht a day with no increase in the cost of living. Not that that would matter as their leader said they would all be rich in 6 months.

And the great starting salaries for collage grads no matter how munch they don't know.

And the free credit cards to taxi drivers and farmers. The list goes on now that they are expected to do some thing they cry we can't afford it but if you will let us increase are debt load we can start to fill are pockets raise the standards of living for the Thais.

[hellodolly]

Panic time for the Dems, desperate tactics........the government is moving on financing solutions the Dems did not provide......the Dems are looking at a following 4 year term in the wilderness

No alternative for the Dems but to try and put the brakes on the financing, to slow, if not halt the delivery of solutions by PTP

Not in the interest Thailand or "checks and balances", more a check attempt on funding, in order to avoid the Dems suffering yet another mauling at the next election

The new government is moving to innovative and daring new financing solutions. they have learned from the 2008 global financial crisis that the sky is the limit.

With emergency degrees pushed through without proper, completed debates in parliament, the opposition has no choice but to ask the judiciary to rule on the legality of these decrees.

no alternative for the opposition but to question all actions of this government otherwise there may be no demoracy left to have another election in.

Two views on the same subject. Legally so

If there has always been enough in the budgets to resolve the flooding, why was this solution not posted and completed under the Dems tenure. This action would have saved all the extraordinary spending curently required to compensate, and now also provide a solution. Costs rise year on year as a norm.

The Dems ignored the people of Bangkok......sad but true......now they are trying to stop PTP providing a solution, by attempts to delay funding, and applying financial constraint......I hope this action is remembered by the Thai voters for the negative results it could faciitate, in terms of future flood control, education, infastructure and the general furtherment, development, and improvement of Thailand

Legally is 'emergency' funding required......well it would appear the Dems got their sums wrong as they obviously did not spend enough to prevent the subdistricts of Bangkok disappearing under a meter of water............

Checks and balances........don't make me laugh......driven by fear of disappearing up their own voicebox

I thought the sub districts of Bangkok disappeared under a meter of water because the PT put up dykes to keep it there. Had nothing to do with the Dems or there predecessors who for the most part were PT under different names they all had and still have the same boss.

[473geo]

Bias does not necessarily apply when forwarding alternative reasoning, the accusation usually stems from a body containing an alternative usually opposite view, which in itself can prompt the alternative reasoning

The movement of the debt is to facilitate borrowing to stimulate the economy, while hopefully also financing an effort to make sure the Bankokonians in the subdistricts are not claiming a fortune in compensation next year for growing webbed feet, which it would appear was their future under the Dems.

In simple terms the PTP have produced a method to finanace their public spending, take Thailand further into debt it surely will, but if they deliver on their promises could well close the door on the Dems for quite a few years. Now do you think the Dems are most concerned about the country sliding into debt, or the fact that the borrowing may allow PTP to provide solutions and possibly have the Dems consigned to being unelectable for the forseeable future.

You will note the calculations are being questioned by the departed PTP finance minister, a bit of a concern, unless he is only trying to vindicate his reticence.

[rubl]

Bias does not necessarily apply when forwarding alternative reasoning, the accusation usually stems from a body containing an alternative usually opposite view, which in itself can prompt the alternative reasoning

The movement of the debt is to facilitate borrowing to stimulate the economy, while hopefully also financing an effort to make sure the Bankokonians in the subdistricts are not claiming a fortune in compensation next year for growing webbed feet, which it would appear was their future under the Dems.

In simple terms the PTP have produced a method to finanace their public spending, take Thailand further into debt it surely will, but if they deliver on their promises could well close the door on the Dems for quite a few years. Now do you think the Dems are most concerned about the country sliding into debt, or the fact that the borrowing may allow PTP to provide solutions and possibly have the Dems consigned to being unelectable for the forseeable future.

You will note the calculations are being questioned by the departed PTP finance minister, a bit of a concern, unless he is only trying to vindicate his reticence.

Well founded in a lot of assumptions which may or may not be true depending on what you want or not want to believe. Almost as good as moving 1.4 trillion Baht around to facilitate further borrowing. Bravo!

[rubl]

The opposition has tried on several times to engage in debate with the PTP. Unfortunately the PTP can't find anyone in its ranks with the required skills and undemocratically hijacks the debate instead.

It is not the PTP running to the judges, but the Opposition.

Who exactly is avoiding debates here with a skill-deficit.

Some logical errors here. The bold text doesn't mention going to court, but the reply suggest that someone did and erroneously mentioned PTP running to judges. Pheu Thai did that a lot when in the opposition, but much less now. With a majority coalition they can cut debats short, rule certain subjects as 'not to be discussed' and call for end of sssions, let's vote now.

The two emergency decrees were still being discussed when PT called /enforced an end of debate.

Saturday night, just trolling along

Edited February 4, 2012 by rubl

[GazR]

This is what the whole difference is between the Shinawatra style of govt and the Democrats style. The Shinawatra parties favour a big win at the polls give you a blank cheque to spend (and win votes) without full transparency or ability of the opposition to ask 'why', or 'where's your budget', rather like the Army getting masses of money but not having to divulge what it's for. That is why they want to change the constitution, to eliminate agencies that keep an eye on them. We all know where this leads.

Whereas the Democrats aren't really too bothered at winning at the polls, because they expect sooner or later to assume power assisted by the Army.

Just thought i would finish the comparison

...whenever Thailand's semi-democratic political system gets too out of wack because the Democrats can be relied on not to screw things up too much.

Ditto - Just thought I would 'finish' the comparison :-)>

[Crushdepth]

And this is why the constition needs revamping.

In its current form, it is an existential threat to the Govt.

The chickenshit way the opposition tries to get at the Government via Judges, instead of electorally via the people shows their ......whatever.

Using Judges instead of parliamentary systems to debate the Govt. is seen for what it is.....just shows their weakness.

I'm entirely happy to see governments hauled before the courts when they exceed their authority. It's called "rule of law" and you can't have democracy without it.

[wxyz]

thugocracy

noun. Rule of a country or state by a group of thugs.

Edited February 5, 2012 by wxyz

[phiphidon]

Panic time for the Dems, desperate tactics........the government is moving on financing solutions the Dems did not provide......the Dems are looking at a following 4 year term in the wilderness

No alternative for the Dems but to try and put the brakes on the financing, to slow, if not halt the delivery of solutions by PTP

Not in the interest Thailand or "checks and balances", more a check attempt on funding, in order to avoid the Dems suffering yet another mauling at the next election

The new government is moving to innovative and daring new financing solutions. they have learned from the 2008 global financial crisis that the sky is the limit.

With emergency degrees pushed through without proper, completed debates in parliament, the opposition has no choice but to ask the judiciary to rule on the legality of these decrees.

no alternative for the opposition but to question all actions of this government otherwise there may be no demoracy left to have another election in.

Two views on the same subject. Legally so

If there has always been enough in the budgets to resolve the flooding, why was this solution not posted and completed under the Dems tenure. This action would have saved all the extraordinary spending curently required to compensate, and now also provide a solution. Costs rise year on year as a norm.

The Dems ignored the people of Bangkok......sad but true......now they are trying to stop PTP providing a solution, by attempts to delay funding, and applying financial constraint......I hope this action is remembered by the Thai voters for the negative results it could faciitate, in terms of future flood control, education, infastructure and the general furtherment, development, and improvement of Thailand

Legally is 'emergency' funding required......well it would appear the Dems got their sums wrong as they obviously did not spend enough to prevent the subdistricts of Bangkok disappearing under a meter of water............

Checks and balances........don't make me laugh......driven by fear of disappearing up their own voicebox

I thought the sub districts of Bangkok disappeared under a meter of water because the PT put up dykes to keep it there. Had nothing to do with the Dems or there predecessors who for the most part were PT under different names they all had and still have the same boss.

The dykes were already there and are part of the flood draining apparatus. It doesn't help when the democrat governer of Bangkok ignores orders to open/close said dykes because of his own agenda. Basically a combination of tit for tat politics, overlapping duties and decades of non investment in Thailands flood drainage control combined with the highest ever amount of rainfall for decades caused the problem; or as you and others on this forum more simplistically and erroneously state -

it was all Yinglucks fault.

[Orac]

Bias does not necessarily apply when forwarding alternative reasoning, the accusation usually stems from a body containing an alternative usually opposite view, which in itself can prompt the alternative reasoning

The movement of the debt is to facilitate borrowing to stimulate the economy, while hopefully also financing an effort to make sure the Bankokonians in the subdistricts are not claiming a fortune in compensation next year for growing webbed feet, which it would appear was their future under the Dems.

In simple terms the PTP have produced a method to finanace their public spending, take Thailand further into debt it surely will, but if they deliver on their promises could well close the door on the Dems for quite a few years. Now do you think the Dems are most concerned about the country sliding into debt, or the fact that the borrowing may allow PTP to provide solutions and possibly have the Dems consigned to being unelectable for the forseeable future.

You will note the calculations are being questioned by the departed PTP finance minister, a bit of a concern, unless he is only trying to vindicate his reticence.

Well founded in a lot of assumptions which may or may not be true depending on what you want or not want to believe. Almost as good as moving 1.4 trillion Baht around to facilitate further borrowing. Bravo!

Seems to be the standard amount required by a government to spread its largesse similar to Korn's Strong Thailand stimulus package which, lest we forget, was targetted at education but couldn't stretch to getting electricity to 2000 schools apparently, public health which led to the resignation and removal of the minister and deputy responsible due to corruption and irrigation prior to the worst floods in decades.

Since it doesn't appear to be the amount that is the problem but rather the method of raising it why not just let them have it and judge them on how they spend it for the good of the country at the next election.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Orac

[whybother]

The dykes were already there and are part of the flood draining apparatus. It doesn't help when the democrat governer of Bangkok ignores orders to open/close said dykes because of his own agenda. Basically a combination of tit for tat politics, overlapping duties and decades of non investment in Thailands flood drainage control combined with the highest ever amount of rainfall for decades caused the problem; or as you and others on this forum more simplistically and erroneously state -

it was all Yinglucks fault.

The "big bags" were put in place to stop water that had got through existing Bangkok flood protection.

The Bangkok Governor's agenda was to stop Bangkok being flooded, an agenda that Yingluck continued after she enacted laws to take over the flood control of Bangkok.

But ... "Basically a combination of tit for tat politics, overlapping duties and decades of non investment in Thailands flood drainage control combined with the highest ever amount of rainfall for decades".

[wxyz]

The dykes were already there and are part of the flood draining apparatus. It doesn't help when the democrat governer of Bangkok ignores orders to open/close said dykes because of his own agenda. Basically a combination of tit for tat politics, overlapping duties and decades of non investment in Thailands flood drainage control combined with the highest ever amount of rainfall for decades caused the problem; or as you and others on this forum more simplistically and erroneously state -

it was all Yinglucks fault.

The "big bags" were put in place to stop water that had got through existing Bangkok flood protection.

The Bangkok Governor's agenda was to stop Bangkok being flooded, an agenda that Yingluck continued after she enacted laws to take over the flood control of Bangkok.

But ... "Basically a combination of tit for tat politics, overlapping duties and decades of non investment in Thailands flood drainage control combined with the highest ever amount of rainfall for decades".

Interesting how the 'red shirts' and their supporters want everybody flooded if anybody is flooded.

I wonder if they will blow up the 3 dams next.

Misery loves company.

Edited February 5, 2012 by wxyz

[animatic]

But in the global picture that DEBT is still there and affects the rating...

So, the Constitution court will rule on this blatant banana republic accounting scheme.

Be careful with that "banana republic" label - Thailand's actual debt/spending profile has been *much* more responsible than the US and many EU members, so they aren't so close to the wall on that issue, have lots more wiggle room than many of our home countries.

If the government were to increase its levels of debt for money to actually be spent effectively on (for example) flood-prevention measures and improving the public education system, I'd be all for it. However since we know that public spending here is much less effective in actually solving such problems. . .

At least increased bank charges will be paid for a big more progressively than regular taxes - but not by much I imagine.

The point is UP TILL NOW.

This move they are trying throws that premise into the weeds.

[Orac]

Looks like a change of mind from the Dems according to this tweet from Korns PR machine

RT: Abhisit: Democrat will withdraw case questioning executive decrees on debts submitted to court if govt shows plan to use money

Edited February 5, 2012 by Orac

[Moruya]

Looks like a change of mind from the Dems according to this tweet from Korns PR machine

RT: Abhisit: Democrat will withdraw case questioning executive decrees on debts submitted to court if govt shows plan to use money

Actually a very shrewd move.

[Orac]

Looks like a change of mind from the Dems according to this tweet from Korns PR machine

RT: Abhisit: Democrat will withdraw case questioning executive decrees on debts submitted to court if govt shows plan to use money

Actually a very shrewd move.

Not sure about shrewd - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to ask the question what the money is for and of course the government should be held to account on how it is spent. As I said earlier, let them have the money and judge them on what they do with it rather than snarl up the process in political bickering which will give the current government the excuse to pass the buck because the Dems stopped them getting the money they needed in time.