A "Real" Degree In Education In Just 15 Days....

[sirchai]

Hi,

A friend of mine was asking me to take a look at his "dodgy" degree. Trying to get some information about this "institution", I've made an almost complete registration. Please be aware that these "degrees" are not accredited by any countries.

This even tops the Thai educational system and I'm wondering how many people in this country are holding such degrees.

If there's really a Seth Harding outside, please be aware that it was just a fictive name.

Here's the conversation to verify that I'm qualified for a Master degree in education. names in this "conversation" are fictional. The lie that the institution would be in the U.S.A and that Hillary Clinton will sign documents is indeed hilarious. I'd prefer Monica Lewinski's signature.....

You are now chatting with 'M.............

M............:Hello there

M.............:thanks for coming on chat Sir

Seth Harding:Hi..

M...............:How are you doing today ?

Seth Harding:I'm okay...just wondering if I could make a degree in education at your institution.

M.....................:yes, sure !

M.......................:Would you like to tell me, if you've been referred by any of our graduate ?

M........................OR

M........................:Did you just find us online ?

Seth Harding:I'm in Bangkok/Thailand, working there for three years as an English teacher and need a degree in education soon..

Seth Harding:I found you online..

M....................:ok, that's perfect !

M.....................:So, let me give you a brief idea of what we do basically..

Seth Harding:But I do not have another degree, just finished high school..

Seth Harding:ok

M......................:i see that's not a problem

M......................:See Seth, we're one of the fully accredited university over here in U.S.A., having over 79,000 graduates worldwide

Seth Harding:Great....

Seth Harding:What do I have to do and how long will it take?

M................:What we do basically, we offer "Prior Learning Assessment" program.. In which, we evaluate you on the basis of your professional work & life experience.

M..........................:and we convert your previous & existing work hours into credits, on the basis of which the degree will be awarded to you within just a matter of 15 days time only !

Seth Harding:I need a "real" degree, as Thai authorities will check on it. In this case the Ministry of education in Bangkok...

M......................:Therefore, you'll not be obligated to take any kind of courses, classes, exams or studies

M.........................:Since, the degree qualification which we award you basically, they are just the normal, standard & traditional documents which you receive from any other university after studying for a particular period of time !

Seth Harding:But how can I receive a degree then?

M.................:so, it's 100% "real degree"

M..................:So, could you please confirm me.. How many years of work experience do you have in total ?

Seth Harding:Three years teaching in Thailand, high school and primary level..

M..................:very good

M...................:And what national are you sir ?

Seth Harding:I'm English.....

Seth Harding:They always change the laws according teaching here..

M.................:Right !

Seth Harding:Where's your institution?

M..................:We're an American University, having offices around the globe

Seth Harding:Could it be proofed by the Ministry of education here?

M.................But our Head Office is in "Colbert, GA, U.S.A"

M..................:Yes

M....................:Let me guide you sir

Seth Harding:Ok..

M...................:Since, we're are Fully Accredited and Internationally Accepted university

M........................So, for our Graduates who are living in Thailand..

Seth Harding:Ok...

M.....................:We provide an Additional Facility which is known as the Thai Embassy Legalization

Seth Harding:Where? In the States?

M....................:In which, we basically get your professional degree qualification attested and validated through the following departments :-

M.....................:* District of Columbia.

M......................* Notary Public.

M.......................:* Federal State Board of Maryland.

M........................:* Secretary of State "Mrs. Hillary Clinton"

M.......................:* U.S. State Department.

Seth Harding:Could my friend who's from Germany also get a degree to teach English in Thailand? His English is excellent..and he's got a degree, but a German one...

M............................:* Department of Foreign Affairs ( what you guys call 'Ministry of Foreign Affairs' )

Seth Harding:Hilary Clinton will sign it?

M..............................* Thai Embassy.

M..............................yes

Seth Harding:What about my German friend?

M...................... Once your degree documents will be signed and stamped through the above 7 departments

M............................:You'll be able to use it any part of the world

Seth Harding:He'll be in Thailand tomorrow...

M........................:Whether you talk about Europe, Asia, Middle East, North America or even Africa

M...........................very good

Seth Harding:So does that mean that I cold teach English also in for example Germany?

M............................So, we can proceed with your application right now

M..........................;yes

M...........................:any where around the globe

M.............................:because no matter wherever you go

Seth Harding:How long will it take to receive my degree?

M............................:to give you the exact information about the degree, legalizations and the cost involved

Seth Harding:And who can they call to check on this degree? Sorry I'm a little bit confused..

M..........................:Could you please confirm me the following details so that i can give you the accurate information :-

M..........................:1. Full Name.

M.............................:2. Date of Birth. ( month / date / year )

M.............................:3. Contact Number.

M..............................:4. Alternative Number.

M..................................:5. Email address.

M................................6. Desired Package. (degree) in (major).

M................................7. Nationality.

M.................................:8. Complete Shipping Address (Physical Address).

Seth Harding:Where the document will go to?

Seth Harding:Could I also apply for a Master's?

M.................................:sure, let me answer your questions one by one please

M.................................:Since, we award degrees based on your work experience

M.................................. So, every degree requires a certain amount of work experience

Seth Harding:Sorry, res...

M..................................:such as :-

M...............................:Associate Degree requires 2 Years.

M.................................:Bachelor's Degree requires 4 Years.

M..................................:Master's Degree requires 6 years.

M...................................Doctorate Degree requires 10 Years

M..................................and PhD Degree requires at least 12 years of work experience.

M...................................:and please note

M......................................:it's not the total years of experiencM......................................<span class="operatorname" style="background-color: white; "><b>

[tombkk]

US Department of Foreign Affairs -beautiful!

Doctorate degree 10 years, PhD 12 years - beautiful!

[Ijustwannateach]

Probably also runs a Nigerian scam on the side. Caveat emptor, and please remember while it is not a crime NOT to have a degree (and still not impossible to teach legally without one depending on the circumstances) it is definitely a crime (fraud) to pretend to have a degree and not really have one.

[bangkokburning]

Did this person state they were "American University? OR

AN American university ???

Your post does mention Washington DC.

Please reply, thanks

[sirchai]

Did this person state they were "American University? OR

AN American university ???

Your post does mention Washington DC.

Please reply, thanks

M..................:We're an American University, having offices around the globe.

(Copied and pasted)

Office might be in UAE, Nigeria, or in the Sahara......

Where does it say something about Washington D.C.? Monica Lewinsky might still be there, I guess.

Why don't you just read it again, without being rude......

[bangkokburning]

M.....................:* District of Columbia.

FURTHER, you have University capitalized - which makes it a pronoun.

American University

an American university

Guess that degree is working well for you.

[sirchai]

M.....................:* District of Columbia.

FURTHER, you have University capitalized - which makes it a pronoun.

American University

an American university

Guess that degree is working well for you.

Excuse me, please! Read it again and you'll find out that it wasn't me who wrote that.

[Scott]

Please be civil. Grammar Nazi's not welcomed.

Thank you.

[onthemoon]

Please be civil. Grammar Nazi's not welcomed.

Thank you.

Well, the representative of the higher learning institution apparently used the capital U. That is the same person who says there is a US Department of Foreign Affairs... I think this adds to level of credibility of that U/u-niversity, don't you think?

[Scott]

I believe the credibility, such as it is, of school has been established.

[nellyp]

Is this like the cheapestdegree.com thing? Loads of people have these, and they claim to have a verification process. They say the verification is done by post, as is done by all universities.

[Loaded]

Probably also runs a Nigerian scam on the side. Caveat emptor, and please remember while it is not a crime NOT to have a degree (and still not impossible to teach legally without one depending on the circumstances) it is definitely a crime (fraud) to pretend to have a degree and not really have one.

Using a fake degree from Khao San Road to obtain a visa, visa extension, work permit or TL is fraud. IE a criminal offence.

Using a 'life experience' degree from an 'accredited' institution is not fraud in Thailand as the degree isn't fake. It's no more fake than an honorary degree imo.

http://en.wikipedia....Honorary_degree

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_experience_degree

It's up to the school to check it's veracity and also whether they accept. The ministries of Labour, Immigration and Education will accept the school's decision unless they have information that suggests the degree is fake.

Quite a few schools and agencies advise teachers to obtain one if the teacher doesn't have a degree. I know many teachers working here with wp and TL gained from having a life-experience degree.

[nellyp]

Probably also runs a Nigerian scam on the side. Caveat emptor, and please remember while it is not a crime NOT to have a degree (and still not impossible to teach legally without one depending on the circumstances) it is definitely a crime (fraud) to pretend to have a degree and not really have one.

Using a fake degree from Khao San Road to obtain a visa, visa extension, work permit or TL is fraud. IE a criminal offence.

Using a 'life experience' degree from an 'accredited' institution is not fraud in Thailand as the degree isn't fake. It's no more fake than an honorary degree imo.

http://en.wikipedia....Honorary_degree

http://en.wikipedia....perience_degree

It's up to the school to check it's veracity and also whether they accept. The ministries of Labour, Immigration and Education will accept the school's decision unless they have information that suggests the degree is fake.

Quite a few schools and agencies advise teachers to obtain one if the teacher doesn't have a degree. I know many teachers working here with wp and TL gained from having a life-experience degree.

Is it true that it is up to the school? I thought that the government departments were responsible for this. I want to take a degree to keep me legal in Thailand, but this would be a tidy stopgap until I can find somewhere cheap enough for me to enrol.

As an aside, if I did this would the teachers council notice that I had an application for a licence refused until I showed some further education was being undertaken?

[Scott]

I have to verify the degrees of all new employees. The various Ministries may or may not accept the degree or verification. Usually they do, however, there are a few officers who are quite adept at spotting dodgy degrees.

The Ministry of Education nearly always asks us for the transcript. What type of transcript do you get with a 'Life Experience Degree'?

When a potential applicant submits a 'Life Experience Degree', I check the institution issuing it on the internet. If it is an unaccredited school, the application stops there. I know that alarm bells will go off at the Ministry of Education office we use, for sure.

In the US there are a number of schools that are not accredited, including some of the religious universities.

I wouldn't consider a degree from any unaccredited school to be a fake or be fraudulent, but if you plan on using one, exercise extreme care and be aware that it might be rejected. In some of the more pliable Ministry offices, they might be happy with a piece of paper and happily send it through.

I think the Teacher's Council would be a harder sell.

[Yooyung]

When I first went to Thailand back in 2001 I started working at a pretty bottom end language school. The name sounded a bit like a tabacco company....

I was very naive and was told to get myself some 'paperwork' that would be required for a workpermit. It seemed standard practice back then and I didnt really even think about it. I was young..ish and Thailand seemed to be a place where rules were designed to be bent. Fast forward a few years and I went from being a young f***knut to being someone that actually enjoyed teaching and became increasingly uneasy about the whole thing. I began to feel like the cheat that I was. I cancelled the whole deal and decided it better to find other ways to go about teaching and extending my stay.

There must still be many out there that are doing the same. Many I would guess dont give a shit. I wouldnt want to be in that position now. The risk of getting caught may not be great but it is definitely there. If you have decided to stay there for an extended period or even have a family there then start making moves to get legitimate...legitimately!

As far as the life experience thing goes. It sounds like a croc of Sh*te to me. I mean, if you want to get legit & get the teachers licence/work permit these days you have to go through the TCT tests anyway right? I wouldnt fancy handing in any dodgey paperwork to those guys. An 'honorary degree' Give me a break. I cant see the average TEFL Joe Bloggs from Scunthorpe being a real candidate for one. Paul McCartney got one, but he changed Rock n Roll history! If t hey can kid themeselves then they might just be able to kid others I suppose. Then again a lot of them do have a lot of 'life experience'

Which leads me to a ponder what all those that are working with dodgey quals are doing when/if they are being asked to sit the TCT tests? That situation sounds like a ticking time bomb to me.

[richard10365]

Thailand is raising their education standards to be in accordance with the AEC requirements. At my university, we are already going to switch our semester from a Thai academic calender to a western academic calender. Also, labor is addressed in the new AEC treaty. Labor will be able to move freely across borders with an ASEAN or AEC ID card. If you're not careful, you will be replaced with a Chinese speaking English teacher who can teach English and Chinese and who has a real degree.

If you have money to go to school you should do it now before you have a family and get caught with a worthless lifetime experience degree. It's only a matter of time before they start to look closer at teaching credentials. There are many international programs in universities all over Thailand. If you have any questions about studying in Thailand, please ask. I work in admissions in my university.

[Yooyung]

Interesting to get your perspective Richard.

[Scott]

When I first went to Thailand back in 2001 I started working at a pretty bottom end language school.

*Snip*

I was very naive and was told to get myself some 'paperwork' that would be required for a workpermit. It seemed standard practice back then and I didnt really even think about it.

*Snip*

As far as the life experience thing goes. It sounds like a croc of Sh*te to me. I mean, if you want to get legit & get the teachers licence/work permit these days you have to go through the TCT tests anyway right? I wouldnt fancy handing in any dodgey paperwork to those guys.

*Snip*

Which leads me to a ponder what all those that are working with dodgey quals are doing when/if they are being asked to sit the TCT tests? That situation sounds like a ticking time bomb to me.

Sorry for snipping parts of your post, but I will try to reply to a few points you've made. I wouldn't call it 'standard practice' to get a fake degree, but it certainly was not uncommon. Enforcement was lax and there is anecdotal reports of schools and immigration officers telling people where to get a degree--and more than a few schools actually paying for it.

I am sure some of the old timers with the dodgy degrees are still teaching. Those who had a TL in 2003 (?) were grandfathered through and don't need any waivers or exams. I am sure those old degrees are buried and it's doubtful there will be a concerted effort to find them. However, if you change schools....

If you have a degree in education then you do not have to take the exams. You are eligible for a TL.

[Yooyung]

Fair point, saying it was standard practice isnt true. I suppose I should say that it was reasonably common practice though, at least in the circles I was in back in those days.....

[Yooyung]

...wobbly circles that they were.

[Yooyung]

I would like to think that after coming back to Aus to get a degree that I could find at least some schools/language institutes or whatever that will take into account my quals and the fact that they are REAL!

[tombkk]

I would like to think that after coming back to Aus to get a degree that I could find at least some schools/language institutes or whatever that will take into account my quals and the fact that they are REAL!

It certainly depends who issues the degree, as has been pointed out already.

[Diverse]

By any chance is this Belford university in Colbert, GA, U.S.A?

If so then look at this: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_Belford_University_a_recognized_accredited_university

This is not an accredited university

[sirchai]

By any chance is this Belford university in Colbert, GA, U.S.A?

If so then look at this: http://wiki.answers....ited_university

This is not an accredited university

Yep! Please start your registration. Even your Kindergarten time, the time shitting your pants will be accountable for your "life experience" , They''ll call you, but not from the States.They're somewhere in the United Arabic Emirates.It's better to spend $ 600 for horse beer......

[chops]

I used to sell these things. Great for fooling employers - I think.

[tombkk]

I used to sell these things. Great for fooling employers - I think.

Are today's employers still that easily fooled? I check not only the references given but I also check the applicant's Facebook account, usually a wealth of information.

I haven't come across an applicant who graduated from a university I don't know, but would consider it due diligence to check. An HR manager who doesn't check this should be fired.

By the way, having a degree printed on Khao Sarn Road is even cheaper, so if the employer doesn't even check...

[Ijustwannateach]

I would strongly doubt that native Chinese will be replacing native speaking English teachers en masse anytime soon- or even replacing Filipinos.

[wolf5370]

I know that the MoE has a list of well known "universities" that issue life experience degrees and self accridit (i.e. they have sister companies set up as accreditors and accredit their "degrees") - these are the onles that come up on the first 20 odd pages of Google if you type in "lifetime degree", "online degree", "quick degree" etc. Many different websites all listing the same "universities". These degrees are routines turned down - or so I have heard. Also heard they can be suspicious of American degrees given to non-Americans, and degrees from tiny states like Seychells for example (where there is apparantly a 'Cambridge University' that produces LE degrees).

Having said that, certain Thai politicians here with American post grad degrees taught in English when they seem to neither speak nor understand it hardly at all - makes me wonder if LE Degrees and attendence degrees from some of these American universities are all that different!

Sometimes LE Degrees are valid IMO - I have a real masters in IT, but I also worked for more than twenty years for very large international companies doing some very techie stuff - I sure as h3ll learned more from 6 years (usinmg the Op's list) on the job than I did 2 years doing the MSc (building on 4 years BSc in maths). However, teaching should require some teachin experience - I think a teaching degree is overboard, but a teaching course (say 6-10 weeks long with real monitored/assessed classroom experience).

In the UK where I went to school all those years ago, several of my teachers came from industry with degrees (sometime not - like photography, metal and wood work, carreers, etc) not always in their given field (my history teacher one year had a degree in English) that they used or aquired before coming to education. Then the law changed and teacher were required to also have teaching degrees. So, what happened? Now, although wages are much better than they once were, there is a shortage of teachers - and now we have maths teachers teaching chemistry, biology teachers teaching maths, and so on, to fill the gaps. That really helped!

[puchooay]

Is it possible to request a copy of the list that the many departments use to check a degree.

As an example I know of a few teachers that have used degrees from a Uni in America, that when checked out on the internet seems to be, and this sounds strange, an accredited university even though the website states that it issues life experience degrees.

I also know a guy, on another forum, who has a MA Tesol from a university that is well and truly accredited, although from an island state in the South Pacific. This particular uni does insist on all students enrolling and taking all of the courses online. No mention whatsoever of any life experience being taken into account. The guy I know took the course there, was also accepted at a British uni, based on cost alone. The fee he paid was just over 3000pounds. In Britain it would have been between 5 and 7000. Obviously there is an element of paying for the university name too.

So to conclude he has taken and passed an MA from an accredited university by doing all of the work. Is he going to get penalised because the place may not be ranked high enough on "the list".

[Loaded]

As I mentioned before, it's the school that validates the certificate. The MoE will accept the school's validation and only investigate if they have information that the degree is fake/false. That's certainly the case in Chiang Mai.