Victims Of Atm Fraud

[Jessy]

My Thai wife and I have been the victims of ATM fraud and savings of 120,000 baht have been stolen from our Kasikorn account – in fact, 100,000 was taken in one day via six ATM withdrawals late at night in Chiang Mai on 19^th January. (Actually our card limit is 50,000 baht? So I wonder if the bank day goes from midnight to midnight?)

We can both prove that we were in Pattaya at the time. And when we opened the account at the Kasikorn bank, the bank issued us with only one ATM card that we still have.

The police have informed us that this type of thing is rife. There have been (and possibly still are) several organised criminal groups that use sophisticated 'skimmer' devices and wireless laptops that can cleverly copy the details on the magnetic strip of an ATM card. The groups have been operating in Pattaya, Phuket, Bangkok and Chiang Mai.

We deposited the money at the bank to keep it safe, and it has been stolen - not from us directly, but via the bank’s ATM, so the ATMs are obviously not completely secure from ‘skimmer’ methods. It is very frustrating and disappointing. The Kasikorn bank have told us they are instructing the Chiang Mai bank to look at the photo images, though I doubt they will show much as I imagine the criminals will have covered their faces. The bank seems reluctant to say anything else of the process, or take any responsibility. Anyway, be warned!

I notice that there was an article in the Phuket Gazette about a couple of similar cases. If anyone has had a similar experience, please make contact.

[4evermaat]

The consumer protection laws are not as strong as in some western ccountries, particularly USA-issued debit/credit cards. Dont be surprised if it takes [never] to get your money back from thai bank. In usa, just write the words 'fraud' or 'stolen' on the claim form, and you'll get a provisional credit within 48 hours if it was a purchase. Pin-based transactions are handled differently, but the benefit of the doubt is given to the consumer.

With thai atm card, you are responsible for your atm card usage. I had situation where a legitimate void was made by merchant. I ended up having to file a claim. Even with proof of the voided slip AND acknoledgement of the void, it took a week from the claim date to get funds back 12 days total from original void date.

Even if someone somehow manages to skim your card, they need your pin #. This is where the end user must be diligent. thanks in part to posts like these, i actually make a consciencious effort to cover my hand using my other hand and body such that even i can barely see my own typing. everyone should be doing this anyway.

In the future. Treat your thai debit card like cash. Or dont use debit card at all on I had situation where a legitimate void was made by merchant. I ended up having to file a claim. Even with proof of the voided slip AND acknoledgement of the void, it took a week from the claim date to get funds back. Better yet, dont issue/safe/cut up the debit card of the account you want to secure.

"2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from ThaiVisa app.

Edited February 8, 2012 by 4evermaat

[Jimi007]

I have been reading a lot about this skimming of ATM cards here in Thailand. I personally haven't fallen victim to it yet. But I also have been taking precautions. I have two accounts with Bangkok Bank. One receives my money transfers, then I transfer a small amount, as needed to my second account online. I use the ATM card from the second account only now. I also put my hand over the ATM keyboard to shield it as well as wipe it with my hand so there is no trace of the keys I entered. You can also change you PIN number at any ATM machine. Since the banks here seem only interested in collecting fees, one needs to take extra care in protecting yourself. Sorry to hear of your loss. There is a recent thread on this forum about this issue. See link: http://www.thaivisa....a/page__hl__atm

Edited February 8, 2012 by Jimi007

[LivinginKata]

Yes, i feel your pain, at least they only took me for the 50,000 baht daily limit (and I thought the daily limit on my card was 20,000 baht). Maybe I lucked out as I stopped the card early the next day. Kasicorn bank not the least bit help, police accepted the report but did nothing.

[stevenl]

At the OP, how did they get your PIN number, was there someone helping you with/after a transaction?

[necronx99]

At the OP, how did they get your PIN number, was there someone helping you with/after a transaction?

Someone helping or looking over your shoulder is the simplistic method.

They also have been known to install cameras or fake overlays on the keypad that record your pin.

Jimi007 has the right idea above to limit your losses.

Also;

Only use ATM's installed in banks if possible.

Never use standalone ATM's. (some of these are entirely fake and just behave like an out of order ATM while collecting your details...)

Give the card acceptor a good rattle to see if it can be loosened.

Always cover your hand when entering your PIN

And of course beware of helpful strangers

If your bank offers additional security like SMS alerts then take it.

If you use an ATM and leave with a nagging feeling, go to another or your bank and change your PIN asap.

[4evermaat]

To thwart the recording of pin, you can touch many numbers on keypad, but only press down on keys of the pin.

"2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from ThaiVisa app.

[NamKangMan]

To thwart the recording of pin, you can touch many numbers on keypad, but only press down on keys of the pin.

"2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from ThaiVisa app.

After my ATM transaction, I press every number on the key pad. Members should also do this with the little room safes in their hotel room. Set you pin and lock it, then press every number on the key pad.

[NamKangMan]

I have been reading a lot about this skimming of ATM cards here in Thailand. I personally haven't fallen victim to it yet. But I also have been taking precautions. I have two accounts with Bangkok Bank. One receives my money transfers, then I transfer a small amount, as needed to my second account online. I use the ATM card from the second account only now. I also put my hand over the ATM keyboard to shield it as well as wipe it with my hand so there is no trace of the keys I entered. You can also change you PIN number at any ATM machine. Since the banks here seem only interested in collecting fees, one needs to take extra care in protecting yourself. Sorry to hear of your loss. There is a recent thread on this forum about this issue. See link: http://www.thaivisa....a/page__hl__atm

I've been doing a similar thing for years. No wonder the banks don't seem to care too much about skimming, because one day everyone will have two accounts to minimise their exposure to loss that the extra account keeping fees, from pretty much everyone, will more than cover any loses paid out for skimming.

[MisterMan]

To thwart the recording of pin, you can touch many numbers on keypad, but only press down on keys of the pin.

"2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from ThaiVisa app.

After my ATM transaction, I press every number on the key pad. Members should also do this with the little room safes in their hotel room. Set you pin and lock it, then press every number on the key pad.

I always press extra keys, but what can they put on the keys to see what you press and how long will it take to figure out the order. What about the sound, if they record the sound then can they determine the number? I always wonder but never heard it mentioned.

Yes I am more cautious now too with which ATM I use. I think the bank should be responsible. I have a nice Bangkok Bank ATM with a chip in it, can only be read at BB atms. and not skimmed.

[NamKangMan]

To thwart the recording of pin, you can touch many numbers on keypad, but only press down on keys of the pin.

"2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from ThaiVisa app.

After my ATM transaction, I press every number on the key pad. Members should also do this with the little room safes in their hotel room. Set you pin and lock it, then press every number on the key pad.

I always press extra keys, but what can they put on the keys to see what you press and how long will it take to figure out the order. What about the sound, if they record the sound then can they determine the number? I always wonder but never heard it mentioned.

Yes I am more cautious now too with which ATM I use. I think the bank should be responsible. I have a nice Bangkok Bank ATM with a chip in it, can only be read at BB atms. and not skimmed.

The "chip" cards are not 100% secure. They can be "scanned" at close range, with the right equipment. A distance of around half a metre, but that is not hard in a crowd or in a que. In most cases, the card is in someone's wallet, in their back pocket, and is scanned from behind. Still, they are safer than the magnetic strip because you have to be "scanned and skimmed" for them to rob your account. However, scanning the chip is handy to the criminal who wants to steal your identity. A lot of scanning happens at airports with the new passports with the chip inside. Everyone has their passport in hand, so, easier for the air waves.

No need to worry too much out scanning over here. It's more sophisticated and requires more technology. With Phuket having so many different nationalities here, identity theft is not a big target.

[katabeachbum]

I have been reading a lot about this skimming of ATM cards here in Thailand. I personally haven't fallen victim to it yet. But I also have been taking precautions. I have two accounts with Bangkok Bank. One receives my money transfers, then I transfer a small amount, as needed to my second account online. I use the ATM card from the second account only now. I also put my hand over the ATM keyboard to shield it as well as wipe it with my hand so there is no trace of the keys I entered. You can also change you PIN number at any ATM machine. Since the banks here seem only interested in collecting fees, one needs to take extra care in protecting yourself. Sorry to hear of your loss. There is a recent thread on this forum about this issue. See link: http://www.thaivisa....a/page__hl__atm

I've been doing a similar thing for years. No wonder the banks don't seem to care too much about skimming, because one day everyone will have two accounts to minimise their exposure to loss that the extra account keeping fees, from pretty much everyone, will more than cover any loses paid out for skimming.

I am not charged any account keeping fees in TH, neither on savings, currency or checking accounts, they must be scamming you iceman

[Jimi007]

I have been reading a lot about this skimming of ATM cards here in Thailand. I personally haven't fallen victim to it yet. But I also have been taking precautions. I have two accounts with Bangkok Bank. One receives my money transfers, then I transfer a small amount, as needed to my second account online. I use the ATM card from the second account only now. I also put my hand over the ATM keyboard to shield it as well as wipe it with my hand so there is no trace of the keys I entered. You can also change you PIN number at any ATM machine. Since the banks here seem only interested in collecting fees, one needs to take extra care in protecting yourself. Sorry to hear of your loss. There is a recent thread on this forum about this issue. See link: http://www.thaivisa....a/page__hl__atm

I've been doing a similar thing for years. No wonder the banks don't seem to care too much about skimming, because one day everyone will have two accounts to minimise their exposure to loss that the extra account keeping fees, from pretty much everyone, will more than cover any loses paid out for skimming.

I am not charged any account keeping fees in TH, neither on savings, currency or checking accounts, they must be scamming you iceman

You aren't charged a yearly fee for you ATM service? I am on all three of my accounts here. I suppose if I didn't want an ATM card, there would be no annual fee. That would just leave the fees for transferring money between different banks and the fees to deposit my money from BKK Bank New York, which charges a fee to accept my money from Bank of America, then another fee from BKK Bank, Bangkok to put it into my Phuket account. Thankfully they are waving the fee to transfer online between my two Phuket Bangkok Bank accounts...

[NamKangMan]

I've been doing a similar thing for years. No wonder the banks don't seem to care too much about skimming, because one day everyone will have two accounts to minimise their exposure to loss that the extra account keeping fees, from pretty much everyone, will more than cover any loses paid out for skimming.

I am not charged any account keeping fees in TH, neither on savings, currency or checking accounts, they must be scamming you iceman

I don't pay any fees on my Thai bank account either, but I was talking about western countries. In my home country, the banks charge like wonded bulls. So, to set up the same safety net, in my home country, is costly, because you have to pay the account keeping fees for two bank accounts, per month.

Having said that, the banks here do have some charges for transfering and using another banks ATM or one of their own ATM's in a different province in Thailand (which is strange) but only a few baht here and there.

[barka]

I personallly have stoppped using atm machines,i only use exchanges or cash from banks,if i wAnt a larger advance,

say via my bank abroad i use my debit card and passport I D.

I am still only charged 150 bht for this..

[katabeachbum]

I am not charged any account keeping fees in TH, neither on savings, currency or checking accounts, they must be scamming you iceman

You aren't charged a yearly fee for you ATM service? I am on all three of my accounts here. I suppose if I didn't want an ATM card, there would be no annual fee. That would just leave the fees for transferring money between different banks and the fees to deposit my money from BKK Bank New York, which charges a fee to accept my money from Bank of America, then another fee from BKK Bank, Bangkok to put it into my Phuket account. Thankfully they are waving the fee to transfer online between my two Phuket Bangkok Bank accounts...

Nope, no annual or monthly fees on any of my ATM accounts or Th CC, actually no fees on any account at all, except ATM fees out of Province withdrawel or ATM transfer to another bank.

[Valentine]

Do not expect quick or any help from the banks. I used a debit or credit card from SCB several years ago at Tesco Lotus & the cashier charged up the wrong amount which she voided & then issued another chit. However, it took nearly two months to get the money credited back to my account. BTW I think there are no interbank ATM fees anymore. I have noticed this a couple of times lately.

The big problem with ATM fraud is that you may not know you have been scammed until the next time you go to use your card or update your book by which time they have already cleaned out your account & it seems like the banks will not take any responsibility.

[riley76]

Yes, i feel your pain, at least they only took me for the 50,000 baht daily limit (and I thought the daily limit on my card was 20,000 baht). Maybe I lucked out as I stopped the card early the next day. Kasicorn bank not the least bit help, police accepted the report but did nothing.

living inkata post 5040723 on the same subject i always transfer monthly money from UK card at lotus BKB always the same, never use the UK card anywhere else, some time ago, i was sent a letter from UK bank, saying i had over drawn . the reason was 3000 pounds spent in drinking dens in China, shock shock i managed to convince them i had never been to china, and it was proved that when they swipe ones card, it can be intercepted on the 'phone' line. i am happy to say i was cleared, and suffered no loss, when you sign on passport and card copy;s always write your signature over the atm card copy I still worry every time it takes ages to check my uk ATM card. i feel that skimming and all the other scams to cheat us, are despicable, keep a sharp eye out when using Thai atm cards, as advised on forum,please report any suspect activity riley 76

[glassdude007]

I travel all over the world and have always used one account as my nest egg account that i just transfer funds in and out of with no internet purchases or ATM use with that account, I change the pin on a regular basis and never log onto it from public computer...

then i use my atm public account with small deposits as needed so if i get burned it will be just a little bit...I hope..so far i been lucky..

works good for secret bell ringing rounds at the titty bars too..

some good advise here good posts..

[petercallen]

The only fee the bank charges me is annual fee for my ATM card

At the beginning of the month i estimate the amount of money

i will need for the month and go into the bank and draw it out

Rarely use a ATM and always cautious when i do

[woodyleonhard]

Article about the two-account approach, and a mention on getting SMSs enabled, in the Phuket Gazette. Bottom line is that the banks here won't do much, although a few individuals have had some luck getting banks to refund their money.

Phuket Gazette Live Wire: Protect yourself from ATM skimming http://phuketgazette.net/archives/computers/2012/article12177.html