Genset For The Rainy Season Fy Dops

[bankruatsteve]

Just thought I would pass on my experience installing a genset in case anyone else finds it useful…

We live in a somewhat remote village that, especially during the rainy season, can have power outages for over 12 hours like 1-2 times per week. So, after several unscheduled parties to consume seafood that thawed out during those “fy dops”, I decided to prepare for the coming season now. All I really care about is to keep the fridge, water pump, Truevision, a fan or two, and maybe a few lights running during those extended outages. So, I decided on a Kwai Thong EP2500 which I got at a local shop for B8300. (It was tagged at B8600, the box said B8500, but the gf said she needed a discount.) BTW: the Global in Udon Thani sells the same unit for B9700. Anway, this “EP2500” has a maximum output of 2200W and nominal 2000W. Go figure. I chose the Kwai Thong mostly because of the price and it’s Thai made (gulp).

Just to keep the hookup cheap and simple, I got a 30a blade switch (Chang) to serve as isolator and which is similar to the 60a isolator I have in front of the CU’s (split service one up one down). BTW: I have 15/45 service. The blade switches are fused but there is zero possibility for the fuses to blow from overload so they are just acting as isolators.

Anyway, I ran 2.5mm2 from the genset switch to the out of the PEA switch and then dropped a cable to a weather proof box at ground level with an extension to plug into the genset. (all 2.5mm2 just because). Then I put a big sign in the service box (English and Thai) to say that, when using the genset, the PEA switch has to be OPEN, and when the PEA switch is closed the genset switch has to be open. I know there are automatic (?) switchover devices available but I imagine pricey. In any case, the gf understands this concept so I’m pretty sure there won’t be problems. I also marked the plugs with L and N as well as the genset (which isn’t grounded and doesn’t appear to have any connection if you did want to ground it. Hmm.)

The TEST: I ran through the procedures with the gf and then said “OK. We just had a fy dop. Start up the gen set.” She looks at me like I’m nuts and says “But, we didn’t have a fy dop”. So, I had to give her the wilted look and “samut wah!” to get her back on track. She went up, opened the PEA switch, closed the genset switch, came down, plugged in the extension, turned the genset on, started the motor, and flipped on the genset breaker. WALAH! We turned on a couple fans, lights, and ran water to operate the pump, the fridge and water cooler running fine and the voltage remained steady. I suppose the real test will be when the outage lasts over a few hours but here’s hoping Kwai Thong has a reliable unit for that.

So, there might be more to this tale when the rainy season begins, but I am now comforted to know that I won’t miss more than a few minutes of Pierce Morgan Tonight when the lines go down.

Cheers.

[Crossy]

Get a proper transfer switch, please.

Without a POSITIVE INTERLOCK that system is dangerous to both your genset and any poor PEA employee trying to fix your supply. At least it's marginally better than the Thai method of a lead with a plug on each end that you plug in to an outlet

One of these http://www.ebay.co.u...h-/110724134022 of if you're feeling a little handy one of these 3-phase reversing switches is easily modified with only a screwdriver http://www.ebay.co.u...h-/120770207278

I have examples of both, not expensive even when shipped from China.

If you're on a budget, since you have two knife switches you could possibly make a plywood cover that only allows one to be 'on' at once, that would do the trick.

Whatever you do, please make sure that there is zero possibility that the genset and the mains supply can be connected at the same time.

EDIT On a brighter note we have a Kwai Thong 6500 rated at 5kVA, we never load it over 60-70% (we killed a Honda 2kVA with only a slight overload), it's proven reliable and stable. Do remember to change the oil every 100 hours or so, there's no filter so it gets crappy very quickly.

[bankruatsteve]

Can't argue your point except to say that IF the PEA switch was closed AND the genset operating, it wouldn't be for more than the time it takes to trip the internal (to the genset) breaker. I know you go pretty far to the left on safety and won't dispute. I'm just saying that the concept is simple and I don't see any real danger even when there might be a mistake. The blade switches are 85 baht. I didn't look it up, but the ones you talk about have got to be a LOT more, yah? Anyway, that's what I did, and I'm happy with it.

[Crossy]

The switches I referenced are about $20 each including shipping

There is always the possibility of human error, we all make mistakes.

Please consider the following:-

If the generator and PEA switches are closed together when the mains is on I suspect that the AVR in your genset will fry long before the breaker has chance to open, exit one genset.

If the generator and PEA switches are closed together when the mains is off then the genset will try and feed Thailand, it will likely open the genset breaker. But, if the HV breaker of your local Tx has opened then there is a distinct possibility that it won't trip the genset. This will result in the local Tx back feeding the 25kV as far as the HV breaker. If there happens to be a PEA engineer working on it at the time, exit one PEA employee! (he should have an earthing stick on the HV, but I've never seen one in use here).

Also, if your knife switches leave the blades exposed when in the off position then those blades may be live and lethal even if the switch is 'off', this is not a situation to have in your home.

It is the last situation which I would consider the most worrying, please check if your switches have the blades exposed when in the off position. The genset switch is the one to worry about as it will be 'off' most of the time.

If you do nothing else, at least have the switches next to one another (it's unclear if you do already).

You may get away with what you have for years, forever even. But you will also regret it forever should someone die as a result of a simple and preventable human error.

[Tywais]

Get a proper transfer switch, please.

Fully agree, got a chill down my spine when I read the OPs setup.

[Bpraim1]

Great try at your genny, I think you did awesome with the materials at hand. Yes there is room for improvement. But there always is.

Thanks for share'n!

Bring lots of salt if you want to share on here.!!!

Edited February 15, 2012 by Bpraim1

[bankruatsteve]

FWI: The blade switches are right next to eachother. They are the "Chang" which have protective covers. Everything is inside a "box" and high enough that kids could not open and play. The instructions are there in English and Thai and very simple. I'm pretty dam_n sure nobody will ever die from my installation. OK, maybe the genset could fry, but I doubt it.

In any case... I hope this is helpful to anybody interested - even if it's Crossy do - Steve don't. Cheers.

[haveaniceday]

Thanks for the report and ideas and starting the thread, I don't have a switch either, but I have a isolated circuit.

Sure you and your wife might understand it, but in my opinion, well I think you may have over estimated how much Thais read signs to be politically correct. Or ..... I really have to wonder that for 20 bucks, you can almost eliminate the "politically incorrect", which I doubt I can mention on this site, but I once saw something to do with excess stupidity & helpful friends ..........

For what it is worth, what I did, which is kind of temporary for a few months until "extensions" are done, (phase two with a new builder). Then out the back a 4 X 5m storage room will be built that will house a UPS to run the essentials in the home and about 15 security lights out side and the slidding gate for the front.

But for now,

The little gen set (2000)W is in a well ventilated brick hut about 40 feet from the house, petrol / binzeen 91 / gas for the Americans , is also stored in the hut, if it burns, well it burns. I don't want petrol near the house, even 40 feet is not ideal. There is a 2.5mm X 2 / 1.5mm cable from there to a weather proof box on the back of the house.

In this box is a safety switch, it takes up all the box, 220V from the Gen set will kill you nice and quick and should be protected I feel, as well, chances are you will use it in wet conditions with extension leads, nice and ripe circumstances to get zapped to death. Next to that I have another weather proof box, inside a total of 4 earthed/grounded outlets. Two at the top are connected to the safety switch fed from the little gen set, these are painted red, and labeled in Thai and English. This then goes though the wall into the house, happens to be a kids bedroom, where there are two more red outlets for two 20m extension cords to be manually plugged into when needed.

I have a box of trailing boards, those stupid little round extension leads, delibratly bought some small study lights with bright compact florescent bulbs and a bunch of 40b LED lights. It would be a messy temp set up, but better than nothing. Also the fridge, TV, satilite stuff, run off 3 small 400w UPS and have 2 more for the computer, basically I feel the gen set would basically plug into some of them. I also put in some of the really FUGLY emergency lights that come on for a few hours in the even of a failure. One inside, one out the front & one out the back to light up the genset area so I have a bit of light when it is pis-sing down rain & pitch black.

For the water pump, well remember back to the second weather prof box above, I have two 220V outlets in this box as well, the water pump is on a 3 prong plug, into one outlet, I also have a out let to use tools or whatever. So I have to change the water pump from the 220V to a red Genny outlet within the same weather proof box when the PEA supply dies every few days. The pump is earthed a second time from a bolt on the motor with 2.5mm to a separate earth stake. The Gen set also shares this earth.

In the event of a power failure, I have to :

1. Get wet

2. Swear a bit at the PEA, (will be lots of swearing in wet season around here)

3. Start the genny (possibly refuel it prior) I have a 10 liter plastic gerry can I use also for the scooter, I refill it always at half used, this keeps always some fresh fuel for the genny.

4. Physically change the water pump to another outlet in the box.

5. Inside the house connect two 20m cables to the two inside red gen set outlets, plug in fridge and what ever lights into these.

6. Try to get some sympathy from wifie.

I am the first to admit it is a bit clumsy, plan is by May to have a permanent 4000W UPS in to run the essentials full time.

Maybe I have given someone some ideas. Cheers.

Edited February 15, 2012 by haveaniceday

[Crossy]

FWI: The blade switches are right next to each other.

At least consider knocking up a simple wooden interlock that will stop both switches being closed at once. It will at least serve as a reminder to the operator.

[haveaniceday]

I have the same size gen set, 2Kw (2000w) that can take some more for peak it claims.

I had a quick look around the house and thought I could easily accidently blow out the 2000W and the gen set would be offline. I thought, to easy for a air con, hot water, kettle and many other things to already be online at the time of failure and trip the gen set when I set it to go online, and to easy for ONE of these to go on and knock the genny offline.

This is why I went with a completely isolated circuit, be it a little bit clumsy for now.

Edited February 16, 2012 by haveaniceday

[bankruatsteve]

FWI: The blade switches are right next to each other.

At least consider knocking up a simple wooden interlock that will stop both switches being closed at once. It will at least serve as a reminder to the operator.

Maybe also help to explain that I do not have the genset at the ready. When not in use, I will have it in storage room nearby the outside box. A 3m cable with plug at both ends is stowed with the genset. So, even if the isolator is closed, there is nothing but an outside receptable that's hooked up.

I'm not sure what a "simple" wooden inerlock looks like but perhaps there is something more obvious than a big sign over the switches that would help the situation. Thanks.

[necronx99]

FWI: The blade switches are right next to each other.

At least consider knocking up a simple wooden interlock that will stop both switches being closed at once. It will at least serve as a reminder to the operator.

Maybe also help to explain that I do not have the genset at the ready. When not in use, I will have it in storage room nearby the outside box. A 3m cable with plug at both ends is stowed with the genset. So, even if the isolator is closed, there is nothing but an outside receptable that's hooked up.

I'm not sure what a "simple" wooden inerlock looks like but perhaps there is something more obvious than a big sign over the switches that would help the situation. Thanks.

Think a swiveling stick positioned above your blades like a clock hand or pie section with a cutout pointing down. Bang in two stops so the hand can only travel from 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock.

In either of it's two positions it prevents the blade above it from closing and cant be moved if the adjacent blade is already closed.

Make it wide enough and thick enough so that it it is moved to allow one blade to close it stops the other

[haveaniceday]

Some of the suggestions have been good, very creative and practical.

But.... Why don't you just "pretent" the 8300 baht generator cost $20 more and buy a switch?

My Neighbor has a huge 50 Inch flat screen TV, but no CB's at all in the house and no safety switch, same same but different.... .........

[bankruatsteve]

Some of the suggestions have been good, very creative and practical.

But.... Why don't you just "pretent" the 8300 baht generator cost $20 more and buy a switch?

My Neighbor has a huge 50 Inch flat screen TV, but no CB's at all in the house and no safety switch, same same but different.... .........

B/C it doesn't NEED a crossover switch. Crossy's solution is better. I don't know even that could fail I suppose. The thing is, I totally dissagree that my solution is unsafe even if a mistake is made. The basic premise is that you don't start flipping switches inside an electric box unless you DO know what you're doing and what I have is simple, it works, and it's safe. End.

[electau]

The generator MUST NOT be connected in such a way so as generator output can be fed back into the PEA distribution network.

You will require a manual change over switch preferably with an OFF position. 1-0-2.

As a matter of interest is the main neutral of your electrical installation earthed to an electrode or is there no earthing and electrode?

[haveaniceday]

"and it's safe. End."

I call absolute Bum-kins. Yes, it is up to you how you wire your house, but to call it safe is, well........BS

I really don't like saying such things, but in the interest of basic safety for anyone researching using this forum in the future, I suggest you take note of Crossies post, particularly Post #2 http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__5058361 & electau coments.

I really like some of the suggestions from other posters as well, I got a really good brain wave for the door for my dog kennel actually !!!! (I mean that seriously with a locking gizmo)

Edited February 20, 2012 by haveaniceday

[bankruatsteve]

The generator MUST NOT be connected in such a way so as generator output can be fed back into the PEA distribution network.

You will require a manual change over switch preferably with an OFF position. 1-0-2.

As a matter of interest is the main neutral of your electrical installation earthed to an electrode or is there no earthing and electrode?

Yup.

My "CU" has no connection between neutral and earth but with earthing system connected to ground electrode.

[haveaniceday]

Steve, apart from the wiring...., you may want to grab some old warn out Honda Wave tires to mount it on if on concrete or tiles. Even though it should be on rubber mounts, this has cut down a lot of vibration for me. Also think about, well at least consider a little shelter for it away form the house, as it is amazing how wind can reverse it self around buildings etc and the exhaust annoy you. Many power failures seem to go on for hours while not raining.

Also every gen set I have had, if stored in a small enclosed room with fuel in it, well, you can smell it after a while.

Also be careful sharing a lead to neighbors, mine had a tendicy to load it up and pop the breaker. I don't bother now.

[electau]

The generator MUST NOT be connected in such a way so as generator output can be fed back into the PEA distribution network.

You will require a manual change over switch preferably with an OFF position. 1-0-2.

As a matter of interest is the main neutral of your electrical installation earthed to an electrode or is there no earthing and electrode?

Yup.

My "CU" has no connection between neutral and earth but with earthing system connected to ground electrode.

Thanks for that bit of information.

[genset]

Hi Crossy,

Hope all's well, been a while since I pitched in on the forum, but as the subject of generators has been raised I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring.

It's been a while since I posted a link to this thread, but for anybody who has an interest in generators in general and more to the point, safe installation (manual or automatic switching) for domestic use, it may be worth a read. Hope you find it to be of some interest and possibly some use, for anybody considering the installation of a standby power solution. The information regarding Kipor generators is a couple of years out of date, things have moved on since then but unfortunately I can no longer edit that post.

Happy to answer any questions either here in the forum or by PM.

Kind regards,

Genset.

[David006]

FWI: The blade switches are right next to each other.

At least consider knocking up a simple wooden interlock that will stop both switches being closed at once. It will at least serve as a reminder to the operator.

what is really needed here is a high amp rated double ( four poles six terminals) gang switch/breaker if available

Or one could probably knock one together with two ganged breakers, one reversed....?

Or even maybe just put terminal posts on the base of the knife of a knife switch. ( cut the base to isolate the arms and replace rivets with a nuts and bolts...not sure if arms may also linked inside the handle though?) ?

or maybe or...................ah bugger it..just buy the fricking proper relay device!!.lol

Hey and what's wrong with a double ended plug? Used that on my boat and only fried my fricking expensive battery charger...lol

[leogerritsen]

Just my 2 cents, living in Thailand for 5 years now. I experienced that whatever can go wrong goes wrong.

Technology in Thailand is not well understood, add to that the schooling system, add to that that the knowledgable

people want to keep their secrets (555), add to that . . . . the list goes on and on

I would plan for all the possible safety. I am going to buy the switch that was proposed by Crossy. I am learning.

[Crossy]

I would plan for all the possible safety. I am going to buy the switch that was proposed by Crossy. I am learning.

If you get the green switch drop me a PM and I'll tell you how to modify it to use as a transfer switch. NOTE only the 60A version can be modified.

[electau]

If you are using a lead and plug to connect the genset to the transfer switch a reverse pin inlet socket should be used and then you can use a standard M/F extension lead.

[Gary A]

I too have a 2,500 watt emergency generator. By having that I can normally make the main power come back on. By the time I get the cords run and the generator started, the power comes back on.

I don't use a disconnect mainly because the generator is not big enough to run everything. I use extension cords to power only the things I want or need. The main items are a couple lamps, my computer and a couple of fans. I use a six outlet surge protector on the power cable from the generator. The surge protector gets powered from two UPS units. They will keep things going long enough to get the generator started.

If I used a main disconnect, someone will invariably turn on things that would overload the little generator. When the main power comes back on everything starts normally and I unplug the UPS units from the generator and back into the main. Simple, safe and it works for me.

[necronx99]

^^ This is a question for me, I know nothing about gensets, from what your are saying, if you draw more power than the genset can provide you blow up the genset?

How do you avoid this at a practical level?

[Crossy]

^^ This is a question for me, I know nothing about gensets, from what your are saying, if you draw more power than the genset can provide you blow up the genset?

How do you avoid this at a practical level?

The small units have little in the way of protection from overload, we fried our original Honda 2kVA unit with what should have been a tiny overload (easily fixed by the shop and under warranty). The new and bigger (5kVA) unit has been protected by a 20A breaker, we don't go over about 3.5kVA loading.

[necronx99]

^^ This is a question for me, I know nothing about gensets, from what your are saying, if you draw more power than the genset can provide you blow up the genset?

How do you avoid this at a practical level?

The small units have little in the way of protection from overload, we fried our original Honda 2kVA unit with what should have been a tiny overload (easily fixed by the shop and under warranty). The new and bigger (5kVA) unit has been protected by a 20A breaker, we don't go over about 3.5kVA loading.

Ok, I'm only planning on a small genset connected by lead to 3 or 4 independantly wired powerpoints.

Extension lead to connect the genset to a 3 pin male outdoor socket, socket wired to the powerpoints.

Do I need to or should I add anything to the socket to protect it?

[electau]

Use a 10amp 3 core extension lead with a couple of power boards with over current protection with 3 pin plug top and socket outlets. You then do not have to install anything, Plug the extension lead into the 3 pin outlet on your generator. You will only have to use it if the power is lost for a considerable period.

And it is far safer for all concerned.

Edited March 21, 2012 by electau

[muratremix]

My village home in Ban Kruat, Buri Ram is getting consistent and long electric disruptions due to rains. I want to buy a gasoline generator and I was interested in kipor ig2000. When I search on google, I found hardwaremart.net which has many models (some chinese models aswell). I dont need anything portable and I prefer bigger gasoline tank over portability so I decided on Kiport KGE2500x, however I can't find price anywhere except tarads.com and 12k baht. I believe it should be more expensive than 12k baht.

Then, I noticed hardwaremart has berala and bento brands 2kw generators for 8-9k baht. Compared to 20k+ price of ig2000 this price seems to be a bargain. Can anybody recommend me a budget friendly generator? I will visit bangkok in a few days so I can buy and bring back here in trunk of car. I will not run all house appliances during electric disruptions so I believe 2kw is enough for me, however I can go for 3 or even 5kw as long as price is good.

Anybody have experiences with these so called budget generator brands (berala and bento)