Smoke, Smog, Dust 2012 Chiang Mai

[millwall_fan]

Mrs. Millwall_fan and I along with Junior MF, have just spent a week pootling through what remains of the Thai countryside, which looked similar to Bosnia during the war of the early 90's. As has been stated above, there is evidence of burning everywhere. The sorriest location for a fire was inside a government compound in Phrae!!! If officialdom cant make linkage between lighting fires and chronic air pollution, how can one expect the peasantry to be able to? The inclination is to blame everyone else. Urban residents blame slash and burn agriculture, country folk blame emissions pollution from the cities and if the truth gets uncomfortably close to home, everyone blames the Burmese.

Finding a solution seems to be beyond everyone. The only possible way of balancing the needs of the various parties involved that I can see, seems to be to have a very short burning season of say one or two weeks duration, in late Feb or early March, the exact dates to be decided by the Thai Met Office. and then come down like a ton of bricks on any fires lit outside this period. Coupled to this must be strict emissions testing in Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai and other provincial capitals, (This is in itself problematic, of course, as the last time they tried this in Chiang Mai there was rigorous testing of newish looking vehicles who might be a few microns over the emissions limit, but who would be able to afford a fine, and almost zero testing of ancient pick ups and most especially Songthaews, who either couldn't pay or would riot if stopped)

In any event, something needs to be done unless my son is to spend the rest of his summer holiday, cooped up in our flat with the air con on full blast.

[chiang mai]

I like the idea of a short officially sanctioned buring season that is signalled in adavnce.

[Thailand]

[WinnieTheKhwai]

In any event, something needs to be done unless my son is to spend the rest of his summer holiday, cooped up in our flat with the air con on full blast.

As soon as my son gets out of the hospital I'm shipping him and his mom over to somewhere seaside-ish. I may not be able to be there myself there for the duration due to work obligations (also it doesn't affect me really), but the family will enjoy some time near the sea. And healthy air.

[Mapguy]

Let's think positive.

Millwall_fan's suggestion should certainly be put on the table. Some similar ideas are apparently coming up in governmental discussions.

Forrest management has often included "controlled burns"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_burn

There are many other sites covering this. Just put Google to work. I understand that this technique is still debated, but heck out what's going on.

What about other things just plain people can do?

I have always wondered about the worth of "protest marches," but they have been effective in many situations. Leave the idea on the table. One need not have to marshall massive crowds to make the point, but I have a vague memory of some Thai groups doing this before in various Chiang Mai parades. Why not join in? Chiang Mai certainly has a full season of parades. Such participation can be educational and keep the issue out front. There are, of course, other educational approaches.

Local personal interaction can be useful if not done in an "in your face" manner. I posted a brief informational leaflet (developed by a TV Chiang Mai poster a few years back) for neighbors that can be easily duplicated that promotes alternatives to local burning.

There are governmental public informational programs to encourage alternatives. Just from occasional viewing, it seems that media news are also covering "the story," and take a public health view. Not always neutral, certainly. I recall one news feature in which Channel 7 broadcast an aerial report capturing on video the deliberate ignition of very sizable rice fields, not little farming plots!

And so on... The useful thing is to keep up the drumbeat of concern. The motivation of the Chinese government's very recent policy declaration and changes regarding air pollution was apparently largely the level of concern the public expressed! The problem there has certainly been extensive industrial pollution rather than agricultural burning, but speaking up has had results.

Any other suggestions?

[harrry]

In any event, something needs to be done unless my son is to spend the rest of his summer holiday, cooped up in our flat with the air con on full blast.

As soon as my son gets out of the hospital I'm shipping him and his mom over to somewhere seaside-ish. I may not be able to be there myself there for the duration due to work obligations (also it doesn't affect me really), but the family will enjoy some time near the sea. And healthy air.

I have lung problems and the only way I have been able to survive it is to use a HJatari Air Filter which I has big replaceable filters...it works well as I can stay in my room without any problem but if I have to go outside for even a few minutes I end up back in the room coughing and spluttering for some time. Do not get an ionising one as they can actually increase asthma.

[chiang mai]

Some excellent pictures in posts 20 and 25 of this thread that demonstrate the scale of the problems in the mountains to the North.

[chiangmaicharlies]

Just in case anyone wants a comparison picture. I'm off to Hua Hin next week, don't wanna go, but have to get out of this.

[chiang mai]

There, I've slept on the idea and I like it, an offcial burning season that starts 10 February each year and runs for twenty one days each year, during that time people can burn what they want when they want. But, if you're caught burning oustide that window then it's 100k fines and 90 days in jail, rewards of 50k to anyone who snitches on a burner. Would that work or not?

[MESmith]

There, I've slept on the idea and I like it, an offcial burning season that starts 10 February each year and runs for twenty one days each year, during that time people can burn what they want when they want. But, if you're caught burning oustide that window then it's 100k fines and 90 days in jail, rewards of 50k to anyone who snitches on a burner. Would that work or not?

That's pretty much what we've just had, but more concentrated

[CMX]

Well, not that they will, but if the government imposes a burning season in this country I would prefer it be in March. All this smoke seems to hold back the high temperatures that we suffer in this month. Positively cool this morning with visabilities in Sansai perhaps the worst yet (northern flow of air).

As have many others, I observed dozens of fires during the weekend, in my case between Chiang Rai and Chiang Mai - most set in the gullies, drainage ditches, along the highways (I saw one fellow spraying, and it was not weed killer that I smelled).

Generally, to change things one must demonstrate the need - in this case harm to all of us - in convincing ways.

[ogb]

Anyone who thinks nothing can be done about the burning (or any other illegal acts) forgets that this is a country where people routinely get lengthy jail sentences (and are held without bail for years) for questioning the dominant narrative.

Moral of the story: Where there is a will, there is a way.

(I also posted this in the Chiang Rai forum on the same topic)

[chiang mai]

Anyone who thinks nothing can be done about the burning (or any other illegal acts) forgets that this is a country where people routinely get lengthy jail sentences (and are held without bail for years) for questioning the dominant narrative.

Moral of the story: Where there is a will, there is a way.

(I also posted this in the Chiang Rai forum on the same topic)

Yea cute, but what's your contribution or suggestion as to the way?

BTW: the suggestion for a short but approved burning season originates from Millwall Fan.

Edited March 7, 2012 by chiang mai

[villagefarang]

Anyone who thinks nothing can be done about the burning (or any other illegal acts) forgets that this is a country where people routinely get lengthy jail sentences (and are held without bail for years) for questioning the dominant narrative.

Moral of the story: Where there is a will, there is a way.

(I also posted this in the Chiang Rai forum on the same topic)

Anyone who thinks something can be done about the burning (or any other illegal acts) forgets that this is a country where people routinely get away with almost anything and everything, and that is the dominant narrative.

Moral of the story: Where there is no will, there is no way.

(I also posted this in the Chiang Rai forum on the same topic)

Edited March 7, 2012 by villagefarang

[ogb]

Anyone who thinks nothing can be done about the burning (or any other illegal acts) forgets that this is a country where people routinely get lengthy jail sentences (and are held without bail for years) for questioning the dominant narrative.

Moral of the story: Where there is a will, there is a way.

(I also posted this in the Chiang Rai forum on the same topic)

Yea cute, but what's your contribution or suggestion as to the way?

BTW: the suggestion for a short but approved burning season originates from Millwall Fan.

My point is it will take decades for the perpetrators to change their mindset. (Might be a little less if burning can be seen as unacceptable behavior my the majority of the populace)

That leaves stick, carrot or a combination of both, but that will not work unless the authorities take it seriously.

(and I merely pointed out that the authorities are capable of taking matters very seriously when they want to)

or in other words, I think more lives would be saved, and the quality of life improved, if the fear of speaking about the unmentionable was translated to a fear of burning

Edited March 7, 2012 by ogb

[heybruce]

I just checked the air quality index at http://www.aqmthai.com/. I can't read Thai but the red hi-lite can't be a good sign.

Of course you just have to look out the window, or go outside if you're brave, to know today is really bad.

[chiang mai]

Anyone who thinks nothing can be done about the burning (or any other illegal acts) forgets that this is a country where people routinely get lengthy jail sentences (and are held without bail for years) for questioning the dominant narrative.

Moral of the story: Where there is a will, there is a way.

(I also posted this in the Chiang Rai forum on the same topic)

Yea cute, but what's your contribution or suggestion as to the way?

BTW: the suggestion for a short but approved burning season originates from Millwall Fan.

My point is it will take decades for the perpetrators to change their mindset. (Might be a little less if burning can be seen as unacceptable behavior my the majority of the populace)

That leaves stick, carrot or a combination of both, but that will not work unless the authorities take it seriously.

(and I merely pointed out that the authorities are capable of taking matters very seriously when they want to)

or in other words, I think more lives would be saved, and the quality of life improved, if the fear of speaking about the unmentionable was translated to a fear of burning

Your vagueness is getting worse! Cite one example in fairly recent Thai history (say last twenty years) where the government has wanted to change something (taken seriously) that required the cooperation of the people in order to make that change and look at the outcome, show us where they achieved the outcome they wanted. I used the example earlier of motorcycle helmets, that took nine years and lots of fines and lots of deaths and we're still only 40% ish complete - lowering drink driving deaths at Son Kran, well at least these days we're out of four figures so some might say that's a sucess! You mention fear of the unspeakable, death, jail, fines, what? The fact is that the stick doesn't work because the police force doesn't represent a credible threat.

[TheScribe]

Is the AQMTHAI.com website down? I haven't been able to access it at all today.

[ogb]

Anyone who thinks nothing can be done about the burning (or any other illegal acts) forgets that this is a country where people routinely get lengthy jail sentences (and are held without bail for years) for questioning the dominant narrative.

Moral of the story: Where there is a will, there is a way.

(I also posted this in the Chiang Rai forum on the same topic)

Yea cute, but what's your contribution or suggestion as to the way?

BTW: the suggestion for a short but approved burning season originates from Millwall Fan.

My point is it will take decades for the perpetrators to change their mindset. (Might be a little less if burning can be seen as unacceptable behavior my the majority of the populace)

That leaves stick, carrot or a combination of both, but that will not work unless the authorities take it seriously.

(and I merely pointed out that the authorities are capable of taking matters very seriously when they want to)

or in other words, I think more lives would be saved, and the quality of life improved, if the fear of speaking about the unmentionable was translated to a fear of burning

Your vagueness is getting worse! Cite one example in fairly recent Thai history (say last twenty years) where the government has wanted to change something (taken seriously) that required the cooperation of the people in order to make that change and look at the outcome, show us where they achieved the outcome they wanted. I used the example earlier of motorcycle helmets, that took nine years and lots of fines and lots of deaths and we're still only 40% ish complete - lowering drink driving deaths at Son Kran, well at least these days we're out of four figures so some might say that's a sucess! You mention fear of the unspeakable, death, jail, fines, what? The fact is that the stick doesn't work because the police force doesn't represent a credible threat.

You prove my point.

The authorities are not serious about solving those problems, but they are capable of using a big stick in relation to one particular issue, and that big stick keeps a lid on that particular 'problem' (even though some still think that problem is out of control:)

[chiang mai]

Moving right along!!!

The current proposal is for a limited burning season of around three weeks with heavy fines and jail time for offending outside the offical dates, big rewards also for snitching on offending neighbours, workable or not?

Also, whoever mentioned having a march earlier: driving over Narwate Bridge this morning there was all manner of folks preparing to hold some kind of demo/march, a dozen tuk-tuk's with banners on the sides stating, "ban the burining", anyone know more?

[tropico]

I only have few words to say.............Law enforcement, prompt action

I heard that even the road department employee would burn road sides just to clear up dry leaves and grasses

[Tywais]

Is the AQMTHAI.com website down? I haven't been able to access it at all today.

I had to reload the page but finally came up. Yeah, today is BAD.

[cmsally]

Ozone is up to around 100 ppb that's around 160 AQI - recognised as serious for those with respiratory complaints and decreased lung function for everybody. The NO2 of course is up there too.

[Dellboy218]

Just driven back from Ubon. Its clear down there. A light haze by Khon Kaen but a noticeable increase in haze from Uttaradit towards CNX.

[T_Dog]

Is the AQMTHAI.com website down? I haven't been able to access it at all today.

I had to reload the page but finally came up. Yeah, today is BAD.

Thanks for putting that up Tywais. Wow......

[chiang mai]

Is the AQMTHAI.com website down? I haven't been able to access it at all today.

I had to reload the page but finally came up. Yeah, today is BAD.

Any idea what time of day the low point occurs, I would imagine it's 05:00 ish?

[Tywais]

I decided to do a bit of my own graphing focusing only in February as some mention it's normal for February to have high readings. As I have mentioned, this February is the worse I've seen in 20 years here and don't feel it is my imagination and these plots seem to verify that.

The first graph is from 1998 to 2010 showing only PM10 > 120. The red blocks are marking February of each year only that exceeded 120. The 2nd graph is of February 2010 and February 2011. The 3rd graph is of February 2012. Let the debate begin.

[T_Dog]

An interesting graph would be the number of days over the 120 ppm limit. That would give an idea of the length of suffering in a given year. In past years, we have been able to leave Chiang Mai for a week and come back to clean skies. This year, the smoke just keeps going and going on so a single week could not cut it.

[Thailand]

I decided to do a bit of my own graphing focusing only in February as some mention it's normal for February to have high readings. As I have mentioned, this February is the worse I've seen in 20 years here and don't feel it is my imagination and these plots seem to verify that.

The first graph is from 1998 to 2010 showing only PM10 > 120. The red blocks are marking February of each year only that exceeded 120. The 2nd graph is of February 2010 and February 2011. The 3rd graph is of February 2012. Let the debate begin.

Who needs a graph?

If you have lived here for a few years you know it's as bad as it has ever been!

[MESmith]

Asked my wife why the govt hasn't sorted this sh1t out yet. Her reply was that it's the Burmese. After I'd finished choking on the beer I shouldn't be drinking as it's a "dry" day, I asked her why she thought this? "They say so on tv...." By tv, she meant television, not this forum. So there you have it. Nothing will be done here in Thailand, 'cos it's not their fault.