Demented Englishman Update

[frankpelagic]

This is an update about the English man with dementia in Pattaya. The UK Embassy called his wife over a week ago, and said that they had passed the information on to the UK Consul in Jomtien. However, no contact so far from the consul and the embassy are aware that the wife's spoken English skills are not good enough for her to make contact with them. She has 100 baht to her name, and can't even get a taxi to Jomtien. She was assaulted again today, he cracked her hand with his walking stick, not sure if he has broken her finger, but it is certainly damaged. She is once again talking about taking him to the Embassy and leaving him there, as she is rapidly running out of options. As regards the British Legion suggestions, it is very unlikely that he has ever served in the armed forces. Moreover, from what I have read, the RBL, well meaning as it is, is a one man show in Thailand, and I doubt very much he has the capability of repatriating the old man. As I have said before, this man is not a friend of mine, and I am only trying to advocate for his wife, as she is a friend of my wife. I can see this all ending badly without outside intervention.

[Mobi]

May I suggest that you go to the British consulate in Pattaya and pass on the details (address, phone no. etc) to the consular officer there.

They are both Thais so they will be able to communicate with the Thai wife.

If it is correct that the Bangkok embassy has referred the matter to the Pattaya consulate, then they should take some action - at the very least, jump in a taxi and go and see the man and his wife at their home.

Sorry, I cant' think what else to suggest - it is one of the pitfalls of farangs growing old and infirm so far from home.

Keep us posted as maybe someone out there has a better idea.

[frankpelagic]

Is the UK consul in Pattaya a Thai or a Brit? Anyone know?

[sbk]

As Mobi just stated, they are Thai

[frankpelagic]

Pardon me, I am sure sbk, he actually said "consular officer" , which could mean a clerk, a cleaner or the actual consul.

[Mobi]

I was there a couple of weeks ago. There is a senior, (presumably the consul), and a junior and they are both Thai ladies who speak perfect English - of course.

I found them very friendly and efficient, give them a try.

[CMSteve]

Call the police. Demented or not, no one should be beating their partner. And I am sure a call from the police to the consulate will get him off his ass.

[NancyL]

Actually the "call the police" option isn't a bad option. Just be sure to personally call the British embassy/consulate with the details of where the police take the man, etc. Frankly, the embassy/consulate have limited ability to help someone who isn't asking for help. But, once that person is arrested and unwanted in Thailand, then there is more they can do to get them back to the U.K.

I can assure you the Royal Briitsh Legion is not a one-man show in Thailand. They are definitely worth contacting before you go to "Plan B" of calling in the police, however.

And very special thanks to the OP for caring about this man and for keeping us informed!

Edited February 17, 2012 by NancyL

[cmsally]

Surely the police should be the last option. He's an old man and his mind not in its normal working state. The last thing that should happen to him is to put him in a police cell. Does he not have any next of kin in UK who could organise putting him onto a flight home and sorting it out from there.

[CMSteve]

Op - you should be commended on doing your best to help this man, but please do not forget about this woman. in your own words "She was assaulted again today, he cracked her hand with his walking stick, not sure if he has broken her finger, but it is certainly damaged" - sounds like she needs somebody looking out for her...

[frankpelagic]

No, I am not going to call the police. Despite this mans appalling behaviour, I don't want to see him eating fish head soup in the monkey house. He has what is essentially a medical condition. I agree with MOBI that it is indeed one of the pitfalls of growing old so far from home. But isn't this one of the things that separates us from lower life forms - that we take care of members of our society who cannot take care of themselves? Surely one of the reasons that Brits pay so much tax is to provide safety nets for people?

CMSALLY - no, I wish it were that easy. From the feedback I have had, his 'children' reckon he was an uninterested parent, and they don't want to have much to do with him. They won't help.

CMSteve, yes, the whole driving force behind my threads and my contacting the embassy is to 'look out' for his wife. As I have said previously, he is not a friend of mine, just a neighbour, and like most farangs here, I avoid him when I can. His wife is a friend of my wife, hence the request for me to advocate.

NancyL, "Plan B" of calling the police is not my plan, and it will not be done by me. I have read the RBL website with regard to helping ex servicemen (which he isn't), living overseas, and what they offer doesn't gel with your hopes and expectations.

MY PLAN. Well, it's the weekend now, so nothing will happen. I emailed the embassy again on Friday (no reply). I will do so again on Monday. If no reply again, then the next email I send to them will be cc'd to The Sun, Daily Mail, Daily Mirror, The Times, The Guardian, The Bangkok Post etc etc. Get my drift??

Edited February 18, 2012 by frankpelagic

[NancyL]

Frank, you're extremely kind and well-intentioned. Yes, it would seem that as a society, we can't just "let" someone exist in that state without "someone" helping. However, he hasn't been declared incompetent or broken any laws (at least to the point that the police have intervened). He isn't coming forward asking for help. People have the right to tell others to "get lost" and they have the right to "be lost". Unfortunately, there's very little well-meaning people can do in these type of situations. (I've been involved in other similar situations in Chiang Mai.)

If it appears that the best thing would be for him to get repatriated to the U.K., then one way to do this (if he isn't cooperating) is for him to be arrested. If the proper British authorities are given a "heads up", he won't be thrown in a cell, eating fish head soup if he clearly needs medical attention. At least it wouldn't happen that way in Chiang Mai. Here, he would be taken either to Suan Dok medical hospital or to Suan Prung mental hospital. The trick is in making sure that the proper people know he's been arrested and where he's been taken. The RBL would have the contacts to help with this, especially if the consulate seems to be less than responsive. Have you actually talked with any of the welfare officers of the RBL, Frank?

Are there tourist police in Pattaya? If so, they would be the appropriate police force to get involved.

Edited February 18, 2012 by NancyL

[frankpelagic]

NancyL. At the risk of repeating myself, I will not inform the police.

He is, in my opinion (30 years in the medical industry as a Nurse Pracitioner) unable to make an informed decision as to his future care.

He is not in Chiang Mai, he is in Pattaya.

As regards telling the 'right people', the embassy, who you would expect to be those 'right people', so far have done little to help.

He does not have a 'mental illness' dementia is not that, (Read DSMV IV) and I would not consign my worst enemy to a Thai mental hospital.

Tourist police?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Mario2008]

1 post flaming another member deleted.

[Mobi]

I think it is deplorable that anyone would criticise someone who is trying to help and do the right thing. Misguided, possibly, (although I personally have my doubts), but 'deplorable' is simply completely beyond the pail and very unfair to the OP who is a clearly well meaning individual.

It is very easy to sit behind a computer and spew out epithets like 'deplorable' but if you feel so strongly about this tragic situation, why don't you get off your arse and do something about it yourself?

Yes, I know, never in a million years, just throw insults at those who are trying to do something.

I have much sympathy with the OP's reluctance to involve Pattaya police. There may be some good ones in Chiang Mai but I'm afraid they are few and far between in 'sin city'.

I actually doubt whether the cops would even want to get involved as there is clearly no money to be made from a penniless farang suffering from dementia. There have been a number of instances of mentally-challenged farangs being left to rot in Pattaya jails.

I still firmly believe that a first stop should be the consulate in Pattaya.

I suggest the OP goes there first thing on Monday morning and explains the problem to them and see what they have to say. They may be very helpful and agree to go and visist the man - or they may tell him to get lost.

Until he tries, we simply don't know; but if they do agree to help, then they would be able to use their own contacts (which may include liaising with the police) to try and deal with the problem.

Once we know for sure whether or not the consulate is willing to help, we can think about the next step.

In the meantime it will do no harm to try and alert the British press on the plight of this man. It may produce some action, you never know.

As for hurling insults at the 'demented' man, well if it is correct that he is suffering from some form of clinical dementia, then he has no more control over his violent actions than a person with a colostomy bag has over his bowel movements. He is sick and needs help, as does his wife.

[CMSteve]

Why is it that we are only looking out for the Demented, Farang, Male? At what point do we see the plight of the wife who is being abused? Is it simply because she is Thai or female that we choose not to feel for her? Ok, the man has been declared demented by his neighbor. I choose to believe that the OP knows what he's talking about in this case because of his background. That being said, does that mean that he should be treated with deference when he takes it a step further. What if the update tomorrow is that he has killed his wife?

Do the right thing. Protect the person being abused. Call the police.

[CMSteve]

I would be happy to run with this. OP - Please PM me with any info as to Name, address, phone number. I would be happy to call the police on her behalf.

I think it is deplorable that anyone would criticise someone who is trying to help and do the right thing. Misguided, possibly, (although I personally have my doubts), but 'deplorable' is simply completely beyond the pail and very unfair to the OP who is a clearly well meaning individual.

It is very easy to sit behind a computer and spew out epithets like 'deplorable' but if you feel so strongly about this tragic situation, why don't you get off your arse and do something about it yourself?

Yes, I know, never in a million years, just throw insults at those who are trying to do something.

I have much sympathy with the OP's reluctance to involve Pattaya police. There may be some good ones in Chiang Mai but I'm afraid they are few and far between in 'sin city'.

I actually doubt whether the cops would even want to get involved as there is clearly no money to be made from a penniless farang suffering from dementia. There have been a number of instances of mentally-challenged farangs being left to rot in Pattaya jails.

I still firmly believe that a first stop should be the consulate in Pattaya.

I suggest the OP goes there first thing on Monday morning and explains the problem to them and see what they have to say. They may be very helpful and agree to go and visist the man - or they may tell him to get lost.

Until he tries, we simply don't know; but if they do agree to help, then they would be able to use their own contacts (which may include liaising with the police) to try and deal with the problem.

Once we know for sure whether or not the consulate is willing to help, we can think about the next step.

In the meantime it will do no harm to try and alert the British press on the plight of this man. It may produce some action, you never know.

As for hurling insults at the 'demented' man, well if it is correct that he is suffering from some form of clinical dementia, then he has no more control over his violent actions than a person with a colostomy bag has over his bowel movements. He is sick and needs help, as does his wife.

[NancyL]

NancyL. At the risk of repeating myself, I will not inform the police.

He is, in my opinion (30 years in the medical industry as a Nurse Pracitioner) unable to make an informed decision as to his future care.

He is not in Chiang Mai, he is in Pattaya.

As regards telling the 'right people', the embassy, who you would expect to be those 'right people', so far have done little to help.

He does not have a 'mental illness' dementia is not that, (Read DSMV IV) and I would not consign my worst enemy to a Thai mental hospital.

Tourist police?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Frank, I'm very glad you're receiving some good suggestions from other forum members and have at least one who has offered to do something more concrete and get involved.

Since you're a Nurse Practitioner, I'm curious about what would be done about someone in a similar situation in your home country, especially if the demented person is declining help and endangering family members? I'm not trying to be inflamatory here -- I'm genuinely curious, because I encountered this hesitation to involve the police with other westerners who are observing similar situations here in Chiang Mai.

Edited February 18, 2012 by NancyL

[chrisinth]

NancyL. At the risk of repeating myself, I will not inform the police.

He is, in my opinion (30 years in the medical industry as a Nurse Pracitioner) unable to make an informed decision as to his future care.

He is not in Chiang Mai, he is in Pattaya.

As regards telling the 'right people', the embassy, who you would expect to be those 'right people', so far have done little to help.

He does not have a 'mental illness' dementia is not that, (Read DSMV IV) and I would not consign my worst enemy to a Thai mental hospital.

Tourist police?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Frank, hats off to you mate for what you are doing. If I could make one suggestion? If you have the address of the British Consul in Pattaya, would it be possible for you to visit (if possible with either the wife or demented husband) and have a face-to-face with these people. I have found that this approach works (although not in the same situation) 100% better than any email or phonecall for that matter.

The reason I suggest this action is that you have obviously put so much time and effort into looking out for these people, that a trip to the consulate, hassle as it may be, might bring a conclusion to this prediciment.

Just a thought

[frankpelagic]

Chrisinth, thanks for your comment and support. You are probably right, and I should approach the consul myself. Will do late on Monday if there is still no response from the embassy.

[frankpelagic]

NancyL, in Australia, in the absense of a legal entity who could take resposibility for someone like this, a GP could shake the right tree so a "Legal Guardian" , such as the Public Trusteee, could be appointed to serve his best interests. He would probably receive a referral to a Nursing Home, of which there are many, where he could live out his days in a supported environment. There are various funding sources to support this.

It is extremely unlikely that the police would become involved, unless a serious crime took place. Also, he would not be sent to a mental or forensic hospital, because, as I said, he has dementia, a clinical degenerative condition, not a mental illness which can be regarded as transient and treatable (in varying degrees).

I remember a similar case back in Australia where the police became involved. I think their attitude is that there is no crime without intent, so they simply took the person to the A & E at the local hospital. This is not a good way to enter the health system.

Thanks everyone for some good suggesations and suppport, I didn't see the negative comments, they had been deleted before I got to see them.

My plan remains much the same, if I don't hear anything from the UK Embassy by mid afternoon Monday, I will contact the Jomtien office and try to establish if they are willing to help or not.

[NancyL]

Thank you for clarification, Frank.

May I suggest that when you contact the consulate, you and the wife are "on the same page" when it comes to what you'd like for the consulate to do. Those options could involve everything from repatriatian to his home country, where (presumably) publically-funded assistance is available to him or to determining if he is entitled to more funds than his daughter is sending and that if he received those funds, his wife would be able to fund his care here in Thailand.

Incidentally, the Thai police would take him to a mental or forensic hospital only as an interim measure until the counsulate sorted out what was to happen. However, (that being said), I understand there are some western dementia sufferers in Suan Prung, the psychiatric hospital in Chiang Mai. There are also western dementia residents at Dok Kaew gardens, a nursing home next to McKean hospital. They are very caring and kind and have appropriate facilities to accomodate dementia residents while permitting them to retain their dignity.

[cmsally]

NancyL, in Australia, in the absense of a legal entity who could take resposibility for someone like this, a GP could shake the right tree so a "Legal Guardian" , such as the Public Trusteee, could be appointed to serve his best interests. He would probably receive a referral to a Nursing Home, of which there are many, where he could live out his days in a supported environment. There are various funding sources to support this.

It is extremely unlikely that the police would become involved, unless a serious crime took place. Also, he would not be sent to a mental or forensic hospital, because, as I said, he has dementia, a clinical degenerative condition, not a mental illness which can be regarded as transient and treatable (in varying degrees).

I remember a similar case back in Australia where the police became involved. I think their attitude is that there is no crime without intent, so they simply took the person to the A & E at the local hospital. This is not a good way to enter the health system.

Thanks everyone for some good suggesations and suppport, I didn't see the negative comments, they had been deleted before I got to see them.

My plan remains much the same, if I don't hear anything from the UK Embassy by mid afternoon Monday, I will contact the Jomtien office and try to establish if they are willing to help or not.

From what I know the UK would be the same. However with time spent in Thailand, I'm wondering if he has a residential address in UK. This is a big thing now for many aspects of the "system". If you do manage to proceed further, this is one thing you might want to enquire about.

[Mobi]

Frank, the consulate is only open for couple of hours in the morning. 9 - 11.30 I think. So you will waste your time going in the afternoon.

They are also usually very busy dealing with income letters etc. which is why I suggested going first thing.

Just thought you should know.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[beano2274]

If he was an ex serviceman, then the RBL is not the place to go, you should use SSAFA, who have a representative at the British Embassy in Bangkok, I know as I asked them to help my friend, who was an ex serviceman, but in the end his family got him the money to travel back to the UK.

Hats off to the OP for trying to help, maybe the guys wife needs to speak up more and get help for him as well.

[Soutpeel]

Incidentally, the Thai police would take him to a mental or forensic hospital only as an interim measure until the counsulate sorted out what was to happen.

Or of course they could just chain him up in a cell, as they did with the other British guy who was by all accounts mentally ill as well.....My advice the further you keep this guy from Thailands finest the better, certainly the Pattaya variety of BiB

[cmsally]

Incidentally, the Thai police would take him to a mental or forensic hospital only as an interim measure until the counsulate sorted out what was to happen.

Or of course they could just chain him up in a cell, as they did with the other British guy who was by all accounts mentally ill as well.....My advice the further you keep this guy from Thailands finest the better, certainly the Pattaya variety of BiB

My thoughts exactly, wasn't there an ex member of some British rock band who ended up in a police cell. He was mentally ill.

I found the link:

http://www.andrew-drummond.com/view-story-other.php?sid=177

[harrry]

Wasn't the BC who got him out either....it was some lady.

[NancyL]

I'm aware of the reputation of Thai jails in general and those in Pattaya in particular. That's why in my earlier postings, I stressed the need for an arrest to be "orchestrated", i.e. have family and friends nearby who can see the process and determine immediately where they intend to take the poor man. Then get on the phone to the emergency hotline with the Embassy and go to the jail. The idea isn't to have the guy hauled away into a black hole, never to be seen again, but rather to get him into a place where he can't harm anyone and has to abide by a judge's order.

The poor people who are documented in those news stories had been "forgotten" by their family and friends. I'm not suggesting that anyone do that with this poor man. It's just a way to get him into a situation where the British Embassy can act in his best interests. Now, they can't unless he submits voluntarily.

[Soutpeel]

I stressed the need for an arrest to be "orchestrated", i.e. have family and friends nearby who can see the process and determine immediately where they intend to take the poor man. Then get on the phone to the emergency hotline with the Embassy and go to the jail. The idea isn't to have the guy hauled away into a black hole, never to be seen again, but rather to get him into a place where he can't harm anyone and has to abide by a judge's order.

The poor people who are documented in those news stories had been "forgotten" by their family and friends. I'm not suggesting that anyone do that with this poor man. It's just a way to get him into a situation where the British Embassy can act in his best interests. Now, they can't unless he submits voluntarily.

"Orchestrated arrest"....you do which country we are in Nancy ?....The BiB make the keystone cops look like a compentant police force....

As to the British Embassy "acting his best interests"......the only interests the BE looks after are its own..

I dont were people get the the idea that embassies are there to help their citizens, they are not.....the less interaction the BE has with its own citizens the happier they are as they dont want to deal with their own peasants, this is why visa's have been outsourced, PP renewal/issue have been moved to centralised locations etc...

The only time you will see the BE do anything quickly is when the Pims, the scottish smoked salmon or the Champagne cocktails run out