Morning On The Bts

[Lakegeneve]

What is your point? Who denied there was a plan to expand (as the sentence and link indicate) but as I stated before, there were unforeseen issues with adding cars to the trains which they are working on and studying. It has nothing to do with money/budget because it would be cheaper to run longer trains than running extra ones .... but they don't because there are issues to be dealt with before adding cars to the existing trains.

And more cars are set to be delivered in 2015 ... again it is not a budget issue. Regardless if they lose money or not, they are well funded when it comes to meeting the public demands for transportation.

Exactly what unforeseen issues do you refer too?? Can you be specific this time and not yet again express yourself in a vague and unclear manner? (are you using the Silom line signalling issue or making something up here?) "but as I stated before, there were unforeseen issues with adding cars to the trains which they are working on and studying." What exactly did you state before? Do you mean your previous post (#24) when you referred to the MRT? I responded too that pointing out that your, "but if I recall it was an unexpected or ill planning issue", was incorrect and gave you facts. This discussion is about the BTS. Can you try to be consistent and specific pls otherwise you just come across as confused. You didn't even respond to my previous queries asking you to specify which expansions you referred too. "Just look at the ongoing expansions. " Did you mean new lines or rolling stock here, it was very unclear.

The point which you are ignoring - and obviously you haven't taken the time to read the other thread which explained the history of why - is that the BTSC didn't have sufficient funds to purchase extra rolling stock as planned. The plans for extra stock were a number of times due to a lack of funds. ie. the BTSC didn't have enough money due to debts and thus had to wait until better cash flow. Then, with both orders, the CNR 12 4 cars sets and the current Siemens 35 extra cars, delivery dates were also delayed.

Given you can't seem to be bothered with specifics nor reading previously posted info, here is the the pertinent info from that linked post (#121):

The original plan circa 99 called for extra rolling stock by 03/04 when it was originally thought the WWY ext would opne and works would commence on the Chongsi to Rama III ext and the Mo Chit to Kaset ext.

However, BTSC didn't have the funds due to a singificant amount of debt and of course due to a combination of Thaksin wanting to nationalise the BTSC and the WWY ext being delayed, no exts were completed for a few years. BTSC thought they could purchase new rolling stock in 05 but they had to complete a debt restructuring which took some time so it was not until 07 that the 12 CNR sets were ordered.

Delivery was meant to be Jan 09 which was delayed until Oct 09 which was delayed further until June 10 and finally they eventually went into service at the end of 2010.

Thus, plain and simple, the extra rolling stock which should have been purchased for 03/04 was not, due to a lack of funds. Thereafter, the planned purchase in 05 was delayed until 07 due to debt restructuring and no avail funds (some politics involved as well - Taksins nationalisation plan of the BTS in 06). Then, that order in late 07 (cost US$70m) was further delayed due to late payments by BTSC and then CNR not delivering on time. So rolling stock was nearly 2 years late being Dec 2010 instead of early 09. So in total that is 6 years delay due to a lack of funds. And that was only for a quarter of the needed rolling stock.

The current order for 35 1 car sets from Siemans (US$50-) for all of the current 3 car sets on the Suk line was also a few years later than planned due to a lack of funds. The recently placed order for 5 more CNR 4 car sets for the WWY ext was also placed late which means they won't be delivered on time prior to the ext opening in Dec 2012. Add in the current order to reach the full 47 sets of 4 cars and that is 9 years delay due to a lack of funds.

I can post numerous articles from the last 7 years where the BTSC states they have had to delay purchases due to a lack of funds. Would that help?

Regardless if they lose money or not, they are well funded when it comes to meeting the public demands for transportation.

This is blatantly incorrect. THE BTSC is finally making healthy profits but they still have large debt repayments which affects limits some of their operations. To say that they are "well funded when it comes to meeting the public demands for transportation" is not supported by the facts. Try to run that sentence by most BTS commuters and they will laugh at you. Overcrowding is so bad in the evening peak that it is significantly increasing wait times on the Suk line (I myself experienced it twice this week). Sometimes by 3 mins at a station at really bad times. Overcrowding adds to operational costs given delays and rolling stock requiring extra maintenance.

The current daily pax on the BTS ave is 700K. We should have been at 4 car sets not later than 07/08. We should be expanding to 5 car sets around now given the number of daily pax and headway (which was reduced in early 2011 on the Silom line given the lack of rolling stock). Instead, we won't reach 4 car operation until the end of 2013!

All of this was foreseeable and preventable and in essence highlights why a private concessionaire model has potential major problems.

So go ahead, make unspecific & vague statements. Post nonfactual assertions, not supported by the facts. Link a wiki page which in respect of the rolling stock issue is 2 years outdated and thus incorrect. Post confusing speculation.

However, you may wish to research the issue a little so that we can all have an informed discussion.If there is anything incorrect on my part then do pls correct it with FACTUAL, SOURCED INFO. Everyone has info and experiences to contribute and we can all use our collective skills to answers each others queries. Better that public transport users understand what is going on and why than to engage in ignorant, confused vague statements, is it not? One could just become a govt spokesman with those skills....

[Nisa]

บริษัท ระบบขนส่งมวลชนกรุงเทพ จำกัด (มหาชน)

Bangkok Mass Transit System Public Co., Ltd.

บมจ./Registration No.0107539000243

September 8th 2011

Dear Mr. Sherman,

In response to your article entitled ‘Longer BTS Trains Desperately Needed’, published in the Nation on Monday September 5th 2011.

Firstly, thank you for taking time to convey your concerns regarding BTS SkyTrain operations. We would like to take this opportunity to update you regarding measures currently being undertaken to reduce passenger crowding on the Sukhumvit line Extension.

In accordance with standard operational planning considerations, following the introduction of the 12 new 4-car trains into service on the Silom Line, an additional 12 sets of 3-car trains were then added to the 23 trains in operation on the Sukhumvit line, to meet the predicted ridership demands arising from the extension to Bearing. According to the original plan, a total of 29 trains were required, however we have added an additional 4 trains to make a total of 33, with 2 extra standby trains, to cope with the steadily increasing ridership. Currently, due to the characteristics of the new signaling system in combination with different travelling patterns of new passengers from the extension, train headways are not optimal, which can occasionally lead to crowded trains. However we are currently improving the system performance to overcome those problems. We have also made further service adjustments, in response to passenger travel behavior on the new extension. For instance we have added more platform supervisors at various locations to provide assistance and more effectively direct passengers to board trains. During normal rush hours, we have observed that passengers are now able to board trains.

To serve the projected demands in the long term, as announced in the press sometime ago, BTS has indeed ordered an additional 35 trailer cars from Siemens AG and production is now well in progress. The new cars will be used to extend the existing fleet of 35 sets of 3-car trains to 4-car configuration. These new cars are expected to be delivered next year and after testing and commissioning, will be put into service on the Sukhumvit Line, further increasing capacity by 33%. For the future, with the addition of more trains of 6-car configuration, system capacity can be more than doubled.

The Company takes great care to ensure that international best practice standards and safety levels are continually maintained and under professional management, is confident that planned investment in new facilities and trains will keep pace with growth to meet passenger expectations. We are certainly sensitive to all our passenger’s concerns and request their kind patience while we endeavor to expedite planned improvements.

Yours sincerely,

Surapong Laoha-Unya

Director & Chief Operating Officer

Edited February 25, 2012 by Nisa

[CaptHaddock]

They have signs on seats saying please give your seat up for the Monks who rarely take them anyways. That is nice but should also have one for the elderly. I would always give up a seat to the elderly but never to a kid.

That same sign includes giving up your seat to "those in need"

Why does the monk need a seat?

[lovelaos]

They have signs on seats saying please give your seat up for the Monks who rarely take them anyways. That is nice but should also have one for the elderly. I would always give up a seat to the elderly but never to a kid.

That same sign includes giving up your seat to "those in need"

Why does the monk need a seat?

Have you seen how far they walk?

[brewsterbudgen]

They have signs on seats saying please give your seat up for the Monks who rarely take them anyways. That is nice but should also have one for the elderly. I would always give up a seat to the elderly but never to a kid.

That same sign includes giving up your seat to "those in need"

Why does the monk need a seat?

In order that they can be seated away from females and because they are monks and have a higher status.

[Nisa]

They have signs on seats saying please give your seat up for the Monks who rarely take them anyways. That is nice but should also have one for the elderly. I would always give up a seat to the elderly but never to a kid.

That same sign includes giving up your seat to "those in need"

Why does the monk need a seat?

In order that they can be seated away from females and because they are monks and have a higher status.

I think he was asking the question based on the word "need" but it should be pointed out that the Thai wording says something more to the effect of being "considerate or generous" to these types of people.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Nisa

[lomatopo]

I could have sworn I read somewhere, (skyscrapercity, 2bangkok) that some of the additional 35 trailer cars, ordered back in Nov. 2010

http://www.siemens.c...mo201011005.htm

to expand the Sukhumvit Line sets from 3 cars to 4 cars

are actually in Chon Buri undergoing final assembly and test. But I can't find that reference, or maybe I'm mistaken.

I guess I'm kind of hoping the expansion to 4 cars might start before the end of this year?

I have ridden on a CNR/Silom Line 4-car train, on the Sukhumvit Line, a few weeks ago, on a Saturday, from Asoke to Udom Suk, so was hoping this was some sort of testing to identify any issues on that related to the additional car.

Edited February 26, 2012 by lomatopo

[cattoc]

Not sure what the point of this thread is. If it's to highlight rude behaviour on a city's subway system, how is it any different in Bangkok than in pretty much every city in the world.

Has anybody ridden on the London Underground lately, with it graffiti and gratuitous violence, particularly in the evenings. Or the mass drunkeness and football hooligans at the weekend?

Or Paris with its beggars?

The BTS and MRT are a joy compared to those experiences.

Having recently lived in Shanghai for 2 years and travelling on their Metro - the BTS is wonderful. The bit that I find incredible in China is the frantic crowding at the doors to rush in the second the doors open. with such short stops and overcrowding it is essential things move fast - but the jostling to get in at the expense delaying those trying to get out is extcrutiating.The Thais - have beautiful manners on the queuing it and am sure offering seats to kids is cultural (quirky but not unbearable)- in China where there is a one child policy you dont see kids being given seats ... Nice to see the 4 carriage trains on the Bearing Line now.

[TexasRanger]

I give up my seat to the elderly and women, it may not fit in with modern PC ways but that was how I was brought up, I wouldn't give my seat to a kid though. When I was young and on public transport I was always told to get up by my Mum if an elder needed a seat. I always used to get on at Mo Chit so usually got a seat and I regularly got up a few stops later to give my seat to an older person while Thai teenagers remained seated, it is a common thing but as many have pointed out it is still much better than other cities in the world.

[Nisa]

I give up my seat to the elderly and women, it may not fit in with modern PC ways but that was how I was brought up, I wouldn't give my seat to a kid though. When I was young and on public transport I was always told to get up by my Mum if an elder needed a seat. I always used to get on at Mo Chit so usually got a seat and I regularly got up a few stops later to give my seat to an older person while Thai teenagers remained seated, it is a common thing but as many have pointed out it is still much better than other cities in the world.

Agree with this attitude but I still am of the belief that the kids thing is really meant at kids who may otherwise not be safe if not seated. At least this is also what I have observed. I've never seen anyone give up their seat to any child except for the very small accompanied by an adult. Nobody bats an eye to all the young school kids standing, it is just the preschool type ones where people offer their seats through the parent.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Nisa

[jayceenik]

BTS packed. I'm sitting next to a young Thai girl (14?) student (in school uniform).

A farang couple (25?) squeezes in in front of us. Thai girl offers her seat to the farang girl who seems surprised by the offer but accepts it.

A couple stops farther down it's my stop. I tap on the student shoulder to indicate to her that she is to take my now vacant seat and not somebody else like the farang woman's mate, for instance. In turn she seemed surprised but sat down.

I thought the Thai girl had been overpolite but politeness to elders or just olders must be strongly instllled in Thai youngsters.

[Lakegeneve]

I could have sworn I read somewhere, (skyscrapercity, 2bangkok) that some of the additional 35 trailer cars, ordered back in Nov. 2010

http://www.siemens.c...mo201011005.htm

to expand the Sukhumvit Line sets from 3 cars to 4 cars

are actually in Chon Buri undergoing final assembly and test. But I can't find that reference, or maybe I'm mistaken.

I guess I'm kind of hoping the expansion to 4 cars might start before the end of this year?

I have ridden on a CNR/Silom Line 4-car train, on the Sukhumvit Line, a few weeks ago, on a Saturday, from Asoke to Udom Suk, so was hoping this was some sort of testing to identify any issues on that related to the additional car.

Not sure if any have been delivered yet as though the first batch were arriving aftyer mid year? When the extra 35 cars were originally ordered the delivery period was going to be spread from Feb 2012 until the end of 2013. Obviously, that was then delayed so we more recent announcements that first shipments will arrive towards the end of 2012 with 4 cars sets operating soon there after. They shouldn't need much testing being Siemens stock.

[Lakegeneve]

บริษัท ระบบขนส่งมวลชนกรุงเทพ จำกัด (มหาชน)

Bangkok Mass Transit System Public Co., Ltd.

บมจ./Registration No.0107539000243

September 8th 2011

Dear Mr. Sherman,

To serve the projected demands in the long term, as announced in the press sometime ago, BTS has indeed ordered an additional 35 trailer cars from Siemens AG and production is now well in progress. The new cars will be used to extend the existing fleet of 35 sets of 3-car trains to 4-car configuration. These new cars are expected to be delivered next year and after testing and commissioning, will be put into service on the Sukhumvit Line, further increasing capacity by 33%.For the future, with the addition of more trains of 6-car configuration, system capacity can be more than doubled.

Well congrats, you proved that you can take the time to find some actual factual info. That is a good start.

However, all this letter does is back up all the info I have already furnished to you whilst it also ignores a number of substantive issues as any good PR letter should? Do you really want to post a letter from a PR person of a Thai company without any comment? IS that really indicative of your standard of discussion? Is there any substantive info in this letter you find compelling to your original assertion which I showed to be incorrect?

I still don't understand why you still didn't respond to my queries Thus, what was your point in posting this? You seem to be very good at ignoring queries & responses and disregarding specific info so if you do reply pls try to be clear and specific.

[gregb]

I read that the reason for giving young children the seat is "protecting their investment'. The seats are deemed safer than standing. Most Thais sees children as the investment for their future (to look after the old ones in their golden years.)

It is usually the older Thais that do this - the younger ones do not give a monkeys (unless they have been tought manners).

I don't see how giving a kid a seat is good manners. I'll give a seat to the mum and she can put the kid in her lap, but no way will I surrender a seat to a kid unless he/she is disabled in some way.

Spoken like someone who has never tried to raise children. Believe me, if anyone has the courtesy to give up their seat when I am on the skytrain with my 2 year old twins, the kids get the seats and I stand. Why? Because the kids don't want to sit on mom and dad's lap. They want to be big like everyone else. After about 30 seconds they will turn around and stand on the seats so they can see out the window.

Oh, I can force them to sit on my lap, sure. I have no problem disciplining my children and teaching them manners. How do you feel about listening the subsequent temper tantrum that they will throw while I am disciplining them in your presence and teaching them sit on my lap so you can uphold some ridiculous ideology which makes no sense at all to anyone who is a parent?

Forget it. You give up your seat, my kid gets it. End of story. I can stand just fine. He can't. He is not old enough to understand about sacrifice. And a crowded skytrain is not the right place to be teaching a 2 year old how to behave. Whatever keeps him quiet is the optimal strategy. You can ask your perfect child to sit on your lap and ride quietly. I will do what is in the greater good of everyone on that train, and if you are smart you will continue giving up your seats. Even the best behaved children scream very loud when they are upset, and their mood swings are anything but predictable.

Let mom decide for herself which of the two of them need that seat more. She knows more about the personality of her kid than you do, but as for myself I don't know any children who don't prefer the seat all to themselves.

[Bakeman]

WOW GREGB she told you. LOL

[Bakeman]

Its just a seat. LOL Make your own judgement calls.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Bakeman

[tw25rw]

Forget it. You give up your seat, my kid gets it. End of story. I can stand just fine. He can't. He is not old enough to understand about sacrifice. And a crowded skytrain is not the right place to be teaching a 2 year old how to behave. Whatever keeps him quiet is the optimal strategy. You can ask your perfect child to sit on your lap and ride quietly. I will do what is in the greater good of everyone on that train, and if you are smart you will continue giving up your seats. Even the best behaved children scream very loud when they are upset, and their mood swings are anything but predictable.

Let mom decide for herself which of the two of them need that seat more. She knows more about the personality of her kid than you do, but as for myself I don't know any children who don't prefer the seat all to themselves.

Keeping your kids quiet/happy is your problem. I won't give up a seat for them. And having kids stand on the seats to look out is an another annoyance.

And if they start crying, you smack the crap out of them until they stop. I'll help.

[Troyron]

No bloody way Im giving my seat to a kid. They need to develope strenght, so standing for a few stops is good for them. Im all for adopting the way things are done in the country you visit, but we need to draw the line somewhere. Then again im pretty quick to get up for older people. But what is old enough?

[richard_smith237]

OK, I haven't read through all the comments...

12 year olds don't need a seat. They don't fall into the 'those in need' category.

IMO: Neither do 6 year olds and I too am surprised at how the seats are so readily given up for a young child before an elderly person is considered.

That said... Why am I always the one who when absolutely shattered gets up and gives my seat up to a 60 year old who's just stepped on and looks like they might need the seat only for me to receive a look that tells me "Hey boy, don't you know I nail 20 year olds in my evenings? !!!... I don't need that seat, she might though" !!!!... Woops, sorry to all of those fit healthy, older 'young-uns' who don't need the 'seat giverupers'...

Sorry, its sometimes hard to decide when... I've been royally bollocked in london for attempting to help an independent disabled person in a wheelchair climb a curb after watching her struggle for a for a minute as I approached. She told me to f£$k off !!!, I'm ashamed to say my reply wasn't so polite, she wanted equality and she received it. Disappointingly she skillfully steered back out of the traffic.... (Ok... I didn't push her into the traffic, that was just what I wanted to do... 'Silly Cow', wheels or not)...

Back to the sky train... I don't even bother getting a seat now. I don't want to give it up for a kid, but also don't want to offend the pride of those to in a few years might need it.

What I do like is that those who truly are are in need nearly always get a seat immediately - long may this continue as part of the 'Thai sky train culture'... IMO, kids will have to wait 60 or 70 years for that privilege... If they are too large for some-ones lap, they can stand (a mother carrying her 2 year old needs a seat BTW !!)

And as for the selfish sleepers who pretend to ignore.. step on their toes !!!

[meand]

This is one of those counter-intuitive things. I take my seats in the middle of the row, that way somebody else is inevitably compelled to give it up before me. I gave my seat up once, and somebody else other than who I was giving it to took it, that was enough for me. I'm one of the bad guys.

[Troyron]

Got in a situation the other day, where I was sitting on the second seat and a mum and kid on 11-12 years old came in. I did not get up, as the mum was just in her early 40s. The thai guy next to me got up and gave his seat to the kid. Then the kid sits down, and in comes the mum too. So now they are 2 people on one seat, and half way taking my seat. fuc_k it, there is no way Im getting up for this crap. Yes I would have got up, if it was an old person, a person with a young kid on their arms, or someone carrying something heavy. Basically someone that needs it. Now I just felt like I was bullied out of my seat, and im not giving it up without a fight...

Maybe I would have reacted differently, had it not been for that Siam Ocean World wanted 900 baht for admission from me, and only 400 for thai people just before.

[hotandhumid]

Old woman don't use the BTS.

What an awfully sad thread anyway.

[Nisa]

Siam Ocean World wanted 900 baht for admission from me, and only 400 for thai people just before.

If you live here, next time buy the combo tickets. You'll get the same price as locals and you can see more for less. (http://www.siamoceanworld.co.th/combiticket.php)

[Troyron]

Siam Ocean World wanted 900 baht for admission from me, and only 400 for thai people just before.

If you live here, next time buy the combo tickets. You'll get the same price as locals and you can see more for less. (http://www.siamocean...combiticket.php)

Cheers. I might give that a go.

[Razzler1973]

Has anybody ridden on the London Underground lately, with it graffiti and gratuitous violence, particularly in the evenings. Or the mass drunkeness and football hooligans at the weekend?

I spend a goodf 6 or 7 weeks a year back in London where I am from and I don't experience any of those things and didn't when I lived there either.

I find it all so compicated I just stand up and be done with it all!

[Lakegeneve]

I could have sworn I read somewhere, (skyscrapercity, 2bangkok) that some of the additional 35 trailer cars, ordered back in Nov. 2010

http://www.siemens.c...mo201011005.htm

to expand the Sukhumvit Line sets from 3 cars to 4 cars

are actually in Chon Buri undergoing final assembly and test. But I can't find that reference, or maybe I'm mistaken.

I guess I'm kind of hoping the expansion to 4 cars might start before the end of this year?

I have ridden on a CNR/Silom Line 4-car train, on the Sukhumvit Line, a few weeks ago, on a Saturday, from Asoke to Udom Suk, so was hoping this was some sort of testing to identify any issues on that related to the additional car.

Not sure if any have been delivered yet as though the first batch were arriving aftyer mid year? When the extra 35 cars were originally ordered the delivery period was going to be spread from Feb 2012 until the end of 2013. Obviously, that was then delayed so we more recent announcements that first shipments will arrive towards the end of 2012 with 4 cars sets operating soon there after. They shouldn't need much testing being Siemens stock.

Good news lomatopo.

Finally, finally! News that will bring audible relief to one and all. The 35 Siemens extra 1 cars will finally arrive in Thailand on 20 August. To expand all current 3 rolling stock on the Sukhumvit line to 4 car trains.

(peruse post #29 if you want a history of why extra rolling stick has been delayed)

I'd guess. after a testing period, to start expecting to see 4 car trains on the Sukhumvit line from Oct/Nov?

http://www.manager.co.th/Business/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9550000087725

[aneliane]

I agree that giving your seat to kids is pretty useless.

I've been working with young ones for a while, and one thing they don't seem to care about is being seated.

Of course, there are exceptions where they happen to be exhausted because they walked too much, but how many times does this happen? Thai parents don't like to walk at all anyway.

But thai people love kids. Western parents are sometimes being blamed for being overprotective, my impression is that here is worse.

The campaign on the BTS (posters/videos) teach them to give seat to a cute mum with an adorable younger

Thai like cute

Old ladies are neither cute (for them ) nor modern (they take the BTS they are now modern)

[aneliane]

Then on the other hand we have the fat 12 year old boy arriving and 2 or 3 people jump up to give him their seat. He plops down without even a hint of thanks. I can slightly understand giving up a seat to a very small child but............. In other countries children are encouraged to give their seat to their elders.

As this post seems to have turned into a rant I'll pose a last question- Why can Mothers not put toddlers on their laps instead of taking up 2 seats?

Well, this is the "new generation of Thais", sad really. Guess that the best thing to do is just ignore it.

And why oh why does every 3 to 7 years old get approbation from his Mum to put his foot on the chair ?

[eeeya]

quick story.

saw 30 something thai woman offer her seat for elderly lady. just as elde was positioning herself to sit down, fat ass sweaty thai man swooped in for the victory!

younger lady turned to him and let it rip.

offender stands and plays with phone.

any notion of loss of face from the guy was non existant. he did not give a f...

awesomely entertaining riding the bts sometimes

[2008bangkok]

When my wife was 8 months pregnant with both our kids we would often have to go on the BTS to visit the hospital as when it was late in pregnancy we had to change from local GP to our hospital where she was giving birth and i can tell you most of the time(not all) nobody would give up there seat and she ended up having to stand up, so now unless the person is either pregnant, has very young babies or is very very old then I wont give up my seat anymore