whybother Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 AFAIK, they did not. On April 10th, the first dispersal effort (and botched, at that) the military used live fire, and if I remember, there were 25 deaths that day. Again, even if a protest is violent, I do not believe that a govt should use lethal force against its own citizens. This is a personal belief. I also believe, and even people who don't agree with me about lethal force can at least see this much, that the government - with a very very large number of security forces - had many other options and tactics at its disposal. Those other options were not used, and in the case of the time-line of events, April 10th was the start of the killing which can be attributed to a poorly planned dispersal (begun shortly before nightfall, for example) and the use of live fire. Do you think the army should have gone in with riot shields against the people shooting at them and throwing grenades? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phiphidon Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 What that video does show is why "unarmed" red shirts were being shot by the army. No, it doesn't! It shows a black shirt carrying a gun and presumably firing it at the army. In which case he is probably lucky he was able to run back. My video shows unarmed red shirts being shot at by the army - there is no excuse for that. Yes it does. A "black shirt" runs around the corner and shoots at the army. The army shoots back at the red shirts. Red shirts get shot. Your video shows unarmed red shirts being shot at by the army. There is an excuse if the army have just been shot at by people in the group. What videos are you watching ? First video - where is it shown that the army shoots back at the red shirts hanging around on the corner? Where is it shown they are shot? My video - thats the point, the red shirts are unarmed - nothing to shoot at the army with therefore no excuse for the army to be firing. No amount of twist is going to help you with your "argument". I'm really not going to waste any more of my time on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 begin removed ... One day there will be justice. Now if only we could have, I would applaud it. Still sifting through all 'evidence' and only extracting the truth rather than hearsay or opinions ... Whenever someone comes with 'new' evidence it seems a rehash of old stuff. Even Dept. PM Chalerm can't give new info. Still waiting for what he promised a few months ago, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 What videos are you watching ? First video - where is it shown that the army shoots back at the red shirts hanging around on the corner? Where is it shown they are shot? My video - thats the point, the red shirts are unarmed - nothing to shoot at the army with therefore no excuse for the army to be firing. No amount of twist is going to help you with your "argument". I'm really not going to waste any more of my time on this. My point was that the reason red shirts were shot is because armed gunmen were shooting at the army. That video doesn't show it actually happening, but it does show why it would happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 AFAIK, they did not. On April 10th, the first dispersal effort (and botched, at that) the military used live fire, and if I remember, there were 25 deaths that day. Again, even if a protest is violent, I do not believe that a govt should use lethal force against its own citizens. This is a personal belief. I also believe, and even people who don't agree with me about lethal force can at least see this much, that the government - with a very very large number of security forces - had many other options and tactics at its disposal. Those other options were not used, and in the case of the time-line of events, April 10th was the start of the killing which can be attributed to a poorly planned dispersal (begun shortly before nightfall, for example) and the use of live fire. Do you think the army should have gone in with riot shields against the people shooting at them and throwing grenades? Tom is an armchair hero infected with some weird sense of pacifism. He expects other people to perform impossible feats (like preventing the red shirts from smuggling in weapons), or to show suicidal heroism such as taking on protesters who are armed with rifles and grenade launchers while carrying a plastic shield and a wooden baton. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babcock Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 AFAIK, they did not. On April 10th, the first dispersal effort (and botched, at that) the military used live fire, and if I remember, there were 25 deaths that day. Again, even if a protest is violent, I do not believe that a govt should use lethal force against its own citizens. This is a personal belief. I also believe, and even people who don't agree with me about lethal force can at least see this much, that the government - with a very very large number of security forces - had many other options and tactics at its disposal. Those other options were not used, and in the case of the time-line of events, April 10th was the start of the killing which can be attributed to a poorly planned dispersal (begun shortly before nightfall, for example) and the use of live fire. Those 25 include the Army colonel and staff (five persons) who got one or two grenades lobbed on them. Plus total chaos when some friendly MiB opened fire to help their peaceful red-shirt protesters. If the police with their special units trained in crowd control had done their job, the army wouldn't have been involved. Just like in 'normal' countries. Incidentaly some posters defended the Minister of Defence setting up a War Room recently, seeing nothing wrong with using Army experience BTW if I have nothing else to do and get bored, I'll check this forum to see how many times this discussion can be found. At least a dozen times, would be my guess. Have you watched the videos? France 24 news comes to mind. Let's be specific right. There is 1 explosion in front of the camera and then teh bodies are rushed through. The are left on the ground; not in the recovery position. So they could drown in their own blood. It's all there. Then the soldiers panicked and ran about firing wildly. Totally undisciplined. It has been pointed out by Robert Armstrongs military expert that had grenades been fired at the soldiers and were seen standard military practice is to shout "grenade" and hit the deck. None of which happened. Hence his view that said grenade was rolled across the floor to the colonel. There was 1 other explosion but I don't believe any other casualties. Why only 2? If these MIB's really were intent on causing mayhem, and we know of a redshirt who was accused by the BIB of firing no less than 50 grenades at the army from Lumpini park, why so little from them. It doesn't add up. Bangkok didn't burn to the ground. All this histrionics from the yellowshirts on here day after day trying to justify their coup(s). There was a civil disturbance where men and boys armed with slingshots ranged up against a heavily armed army in the middle of a capital city. When they entered the red shirt camp the army found 5 kalashnikovs and 7 very old american rifles which I presume had been confiscated by teh red shirt guards to prevent people/malcontents entering a crowded area armed. Unreasonable assumption? I don't think so. Why weren't these guns trained on the thai soldiers? Why were the soldiers found in the army APC on teh night of the 10th April released back to their units by the hated red shirts? It pleases you lot not to understand these questions and it begs the question what were the coups about? The only justification has become this idea of Thaksin's orwellian all encompassing corruption which is all utter bull. Why were the soldiers weaponry seized at the television tower earlier returned to those soldiers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlansford Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 begin removed ... One day there will be justice. Now if only we could have, I would applaud it. Still sifting through all 'evidence' and only extracting the truth rather than hearsay or opinions ... Whenever someone comes with 'new' evidence it seems a rehash of old stuff. Even Dept. PM Chalerm can't give new info. Still waiting for what he promised a few months ago, by the way. I am in agreement with you regarding new information. There is still precious little to be found on many of the important details. I think that more accounts and reports will be forthcoming, but I too am waiting. Regarding casualties from grenades on April 10th, do you have a link to that? I have only found information that the first deaths resulting from grenades were on April 22nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlansford Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 AFAIK, they did not. On April 10th, the first dispersal effort (and botched, at that) the military used live fire, and if I remember, there were 25 deaths that day. Again, even if a protest is violent, I do not believe that a govt should use lethal force against its own citizens. This is a personal belief. I also believe, and even people who don't agree with me about lethal force can at least see this much, that the government - with a very very large number of security forces - had many other options and tactics at its disposal. Those other options were not used, and in the case of the time-line of events, April 10th was the start of the killing which can be attributed to a poorly planned dispersal (begun shortly before nightfall, for example) and the use of live fire. Do you think the army should have gone in with riot shields against the people shooting at them and throwing grenades? In reply to your not so subtle & relatively silly leading question, I will ask you if you cannot think of non-lethal tactics which could have been employed by the govt given the resources under their command? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlansford Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 AFAIK, they did not. On April 10th, the first dispersal effort (and botched, at that) the military used live fire, and if I remember, there were 25 deaths that day. Again, even if a protest is violent, I do not believe that a govt should use lethal force against its own citizens. This is a personal belief. I also believe, and even people who don't agree with me about lethal force can at least see this much, that the government - with a very very large number of security forces - had many other options and tactics at its disposal. Those other options were not used, and in the case of the time-line of events, April 10th was the start of the killing which can be attributed to a poorly planned dispersal (begun shortly before nightfall, for example) and the use of live fire. Do you think the army should have gone in with riot shields against the people shooting at them and throwing grenades? Tom is an armchair hero infected with some weird sense of pacifism. He expects other people to perform impossible feats (like preventing the red shirts from smuggling in weapons), or to show suicidal heroism such as taking on protesters who are armed with rifles and grenade launchers while carrying a plastic shield and a wooden baton. nice try Ozmick, but missed the target completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 begin removed ... One day there will be justice. Now if only we could have, I would applaud it. Still sifting through all 'evidence' and only extracting the truth rather than hearsay or opinions ... Whenever someone comes with 'new' evidence it seems a rehash of old stuff. Even Dept. PM Chalerm can't give new info. Still waiting for what he promised a few months ago, by the way. I am in agreement with you regarding new information. There is still precious little to be found on many of the important details. I think that more accounts and reports will be forthcoming, but I too am waiting. Regarding casualties from grenades on April 10th, do you have a link to that? I have only found information that the first deaths resulting from grenades were on April 22nd. Either you're a bad liar, or your memory is somewhat 'red-filtered'. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/bullets-killed-thai-red-shirt-protesters/story-e6frg6so-1225852976016 http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LD13Ae03.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babcock Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 begin removed ... One day there will be justice. Now if only we could have, I would applaud it. Still sifting through all 'evidence' and only extracting the truth rather than hearsay or opinions ... Whenever someone comes with 'new' evidence it seems a rehash of old stuff. Even Dept. PM Chalerm can't give new info. Still waiting for what he promised a few months ago, by the way. I am in agreement with you regarding new information. There is still precious little to be found on many of the important details. I think that more accounts and reports will be forthcoming, but I too am waiting. Regarding casualties from grenades on April 10th, do you have a link to that? I have only found information that the first deaths resulting from grenades were on April 22nd. Oh sorry was it April 22nd? I got my dates muddled up. We visited the redshirts at the monument in late March when Nick Nostitz climbed up on a TV gantry to take a panoramic photo showing roughly around 150,000 people gathered. Everyone was very solemn. one man shook my hand. I was a witness no more. This is not my fight but for my wife and her children and their children it matters. When I hear pampered elitist foreigners come on here and make all their insinuations about the poor, how they are controlled and duped etc etc and how their votes really count for nothing and the alternative is only really the STATUS QUO and to just be thankful I want to *ucking puke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Oh sorry was it April 22nd? I got my dates muddled up. We visited the redshirts at the monument in late March when Nick Nostitz climbed up on a TV gantry to take a panoramic photo showing roughly around 150,000 people gathered. Everyone was very solemn. one man shook my hand. I was a witness no more. This is not my fight but for my wife and her children and their children it matters. When I hear pampered elitist foreigners come on here and make all their insinuations about the poor, how they are controlled and duped etc etc and how their votes really count for nothing and the alternative is only really the STATUS QUO and to just be thankful I want to *ucking puke! On April, 22nd, 2010 we had the grenade attack on multicolored-shirts which was badly aimed and hit BTS Saladaeng station instead. One Thai lady died, 80 injured with foreigners amongst them. As for the 150,000 protesters, well maybe 'slightly' less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Your personal beliefs carry as much weight as a toenail. The facts are that the authorities shot and killed unarmed civilians. And the facts also are that there were armed protesters shooting at the army. Spot on and here is one of them. A picture is worth a thousand words. Here is another pic. In your attached thumbnail the M-16s appear to be RTA issue (blue DYMO tape on the butts - serial numbers?). At least 3 can easily be seen to be minus magazines. Possibly a safety measure in a crowd (assuming a level of responsibility that may not be justified) or have been stolen from an armoury/transport without mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babcock Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Oh sorry was it April 22nd? I got my dates muddled up. We visited the redshirts at the monument in late March when Nick Nostitz climbed up on a TV gantry to take a panoramic photo showing roughly around 150,000 people gathered. Everyone was very solemn. one man shook my hand. I was a witness no more. This is not my fight but for my wife and her children and their children it matters. When I hear pampered elitist foreigners come on here and make all their insinuations about the poor, how they are controlled and duped etc etc and how their votes really count for nothing and the alternative is only really the STATUS QUO and to just be thankful I want to *ucking puke! On April, 22nd, 2010 we had the grenade attack on multicolored-shirts which was badly aimed and hit BTS Saladaeng station instead. One Thai lady died, 80 injured with foreigners amongst them. As for the 150,000 protesters, well maybe 'slightly' less Not less. I saw a huge number, at least that and later in Ratchaprasong the numbers grew to over 250000 which rotated every few days so a vast number came down to protest. Don't understand? OK I was correct. April 10th army near massacre. April 22nd. Grenade attack on PAD supporters gathered in Silom opposite redshirt barricades. The claim by Suthep was that a grenade was fired from Lumpini Park from the monument and struck down those people in Silom. You go and stand at the monument and go figure how you will hit the street beyond the overhead BTS structure. The hated red shirts claim that in fact it was fired from the 5th floor of the hospital and the "supposedly" celebrated forensic expert Porntip? claimed she found chemical residue from a room there on the 5th floor supporting this claim. This building had been cleared by the hospital authorities and where all the lights within the building had been put out and yet figures were seen within by the red shirts who latterly marched in to investigate causing a furore. Question is what forensics if any were ever carried out at the Lumpini park location and what happend to the forensics regarding the 5th floor room? See many many questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlansford Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 begin removed ... One day there will be justice. Now if only we could have, I would applaud it. Still sifting through all 'evidence' and only extracting the truth rather than hearsay or opinions ... Whenever someone comes with 'new' evidence it seems a rehash of old stuff. Even Dept. PM Chalerm can't give new info. Still waiting for what he promised a few months ago, by the way. I am in agreement with you regarding new information. There is still precious little to be found on many of the important details. I think that more accounts and reports will be forthcoming, but I too am waiting. Regarding casualties from grenades on April 10th, do you have a link to that? I have only found information that the first deaths resulting from grenades were on April 22nd. Either you're a bad liar, or your memory is somewhat 'red-filtered'. http://www.theaustra...o-1225852976016 http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4119607 http://www.atimes.co...a/LD13Ae03.html http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4461130 Thanks for the links. So was it finally determined that he was killed by a grenade or shot? Also, what is the consensus on who killed him? Looking into this one death, it seems to not be clear. As for memory and lying, I have read reports which claim that the first death (not injuries) due to grenades was on April 22nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babcock Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 ... Dont tell me, a bunch of blackshirts ran up to the group of "unarmed" civilians behind the barricade, started shooting to provoke the army before secreting any arms the civilians had on them before running away never to be found. ... There's at least one video of a Black Shirt doing exactly that. Funny you haven't seen it. Oh, here it is. That's funny, that shows absolutely nothing like I described. It does show a black clad "civilian" firing a couple of shots and then running away. It does not show a "black shirt" taking guns from a dead red shirt. Never mind, please try harder next time. FAKE FAKE FAKE!!!! Look at the crash barrier, the road, the perspective and the MIB appears to be about 2.5 foot tall. It's a joke! Wow you're really trying,NOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waza Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 http://kanitamo.com/images/reds_weapons_seized.jpg birdpooguava, changing your name doesnt give you any credibility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I am in agreement with you regarding new information. There is still precious little to be found on many of the important details. I think that more accounts and reports will be forthcoming, but I too am waiting. Regarding casualties from grenades on April 10th, do you have a link to that? I have only found information that the first deaths resulting from grenades were on April 22nd. Either you're a bad liar, or your memory is somewhat 'red-filtered'. http://www.theaustra...o-1225852976016 http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4119607 http://www.atimes.co...a/LD13Ae03.html http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4461130 Thanks for the links. So was it finally determined that he was killed by a grenade or shot? Also, what is the consensus on who killed him? Looking into this one death, it seems to not be clear. As for memory and lying, I have read reports which claim that the first death (not injuries) due to grenades was on April 22nd. The links I provided refer to a grenade attack mortally wounding Colonel Romklao Thuwatham and four other army personel. No mention of being shot. In 2010 alone there were many grenade attacks with probably 50 - 60 grenades exploded. At/near BTS Saladaeng five on the 22nd of April. As for having read a 'report claiming ...', I believe you in this. I've also encountered interesting theories while searching, including 'Elvis lives' and 'NASA moonlanding is a hoax'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Oh sorry was it April 22nd? I got my dates muddled up. We visited the redshirts at the monument in late March when Nick Nostitz climbed up on a TV gantry to take a panoramic photo showing roughly around 150,000 people gathered. Everyone was very solemn. one man shook my hand. I was a witness no more. This is not my fight but for my wife and her children and their children it matters. When I hear pampered elitist foreigners come on here and make all their insinuations about the poor, how they are controlled and duped etc etc and how their votes really count for nothing and the alternative is only really the STATUS QUO and to just be thankful I want to *ucking puke! On April, 22nd, 2010 we had the grenade attack on multicolored-shirts which was badly aimed and hit BTS Saladaeng station instead. One Thai lady died, 80 injured with foreigners amongst them. As for the 150,000 protesters, well maybe 'slightly' less Not less. I saw a huge number, at least that and later in Ratchaprasong the numbers grew to over 250000 which rotated every few days so a vast number came down to protest. Don't understand? OK I was correct. April 10th army near massacre. April 22nd. Grenade attack on PAD supporters gathered in Silom opposite redshirt barricades. The claim by Suthep was that a grenade was fired from Lumpini Park from the monument and struck down those people in Silom. You go and stand at the monument and go figure how you will hit the street beyond the overhead BTS structure. The hated red shirts claim that in fact it was fired from the 5th floor of the hospital and the "supposedly" celebrated forensic expert Porntip? claimed she found chemical residue from a room there on the 5th floor supporting this claim. This building had been cleared by the hospital authorities and where all the lights within the building had been put out and yet figures were seen within by the red shirts who latterly marched in to investigate causing a furore. Question is what forensics if any were ever carried out at the Lumpini park location and what happend to the forensics regarding the 5th floor room? See many many questions. If my memory serves me well, you once wrote 70,000 soldiers gathered for the final attack on Ratchaprasong. Pity it got removed. Now we have 250,000 at Ratchaprasong AND rotating every few days. History rewritten while you sit at home with a beer and watch TV 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
473geo Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) If the police with their special units trained in crowd control had done their job, the army wouldn't have been involved. Just like in 'normal' countries. Incidentaly some posters defended the Minister of Defence setting up a War Room recently, seeing nothing wrong with using Army experience Would that be the ficticious 478geo you referred to Rubl? I do recall stating using military experience to monitor crowd control was acceptable, but the work on the ground should be carried out by the police and specialist police units. One of the reasons I agree with implementing a crowd control centre, run by the best qualified people, supports my opinion that if the 2010 protest had initially been diverted to a less prominent location the escalation may not have taken place As it was, there was minimal violence until the army showed up, once in position there was only ever going to be rapid escalation of confrontation, which proved to be the case I am surprised there was no prolonged use of teargas, water cannons or any other anti riot methodology, also how the whole fortress was allowed to be constructed with little disruptive action from the government side I am surprised if the government were convinced that the red shirts wanted 'martyrs', as some here are suggesting, then why did the government send in the troops and provide, seems a bit strange don't you think, or was it just desperate lack of vision? Edited February 25, 2012 by 473geo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babcock Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Oh sorry was it April 22nd? I got my dates muddled up. We visited the redshirts at the monument in late March when Nick Nostitz climbed up on a TV gantry to take a panoramic photo showing roughly around 150,000 people gathered. Everyone was very solemn. one man shook my hand. I was a witness no more. This is not my fight but for my wife and her children and their children it matters. When I hear pampered elitist foreigners come on here and make all their insinuations about the poor, how they are controlled and duped etc etc and how their votes really count for nothing and the alternative is only really the STATUS QUO and to just be thankful I want to *ucking puke! On April, 22nd, 2010 we had the grenade attack on multicolored-shirts which was badly aimed and hit BTS Saladaeng station instead. One Thai lady died, 80 injured with foreigners amongst them. As for the 150,000 protesters, well maybe 'slightly' less Not less. I saw a huge number, at least that and later in Ratchaprasong the numbers grew to over 250000 which rotated every few days so a vast number came down to protest. Don't understand? OK I was correct. April 10th army near massacre. April 22nd. Grenade attack on PAD supporters gathered in Silom opposite redshirt barricades. The claim by Suthep was that a grenade was fired from Lumpini Park from the monument and struck down those people in Silom. You go and stand at the monument and go figure how you will hit the street beyond the overhead BTS structure. The hated red shirts claim that in fact it was fired from the 5th floor of the hospital and the "supposedly" celebrated forensic expert Porntip? claimed she found chemical residue from a room there on the 5th floor supporting this claim. This building had been cleared by the hospital authorities and where all the lights within the building had been put out and yet figures were seen within by the red shirts who latterly marched in to investigate causing a furore. Question is what forensics if any were ever carried out at the Lumpini park location and what happend to the forensics regarding the 5th floor room? See many many questions. If my memory serves me well, you once wrote 70,000 soldiers gathered for the final attack on Ratchaprasong. Pity it got removed. Now we have 250,000 at Ratchaprasong AND rotating every few days. History rewritten while you sit at home with a beer and watch TV No I understood about 50000 troops were deployed and yes IT IS CLAIMED that up to 250,000 people gathered in Ratchaprasong and generally most stayed around 4 days so there was a big turnover. Interesting you have no conmment on the above fake video unless you are going to tell us that the redshirts deployed it ewoks from Starwars to scurry across the bottom of the screen brandishing blasters. Languageses>en YahooCEwas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babcock Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 If the police with their special units trained in crowd control had done their job, the army wouldn't have been involved. Just like in 'normal' countries. Incidentaly some posters defended the Minister of Defence setting up a War Room recently, seeing nothing wrong with using Army experience Would that be the ficticious 478geo you referred to Rubl? I do recall stating using military experience to monitor crowd control was acceptable, but the work on the ground should be carried out by the police and specialist police units. One of the reasons I agree with implementing a crowd control centre, run by the best qualified people, supports my opinion that if the 2010 protest had initially been diverted to a less prominent location the escalation may not have taken place As it was, there was minimal violence until the army showed up, once in position there was only ever going to be rapid escalation of confrontation, which proved to be the case I am surprised there was no prolonged use of teargas, water cannons or any other anti riot methodology, also how the whole fortress was allowed to be constructed with little disruptive action from the government side I am surprised if the government were convinced that the red shirts wanted 'martyrs', as some here are suggesting, then why did the government send in the troops and provide, seems a bit strange don't you think, or was it just desperate lack of vision? There was no use of tear gas, water cannon. They only came with their guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 If the police with their special units trained in crowd control had done their job, the army wouldn't have been involved. Just like in 'normal' countries. Incidentaly some posters defended the Minister of Defence setting up a War Room recently, seeing nothing wrong with using Army experience Would that be the ficticious 478geo you referred to Rubl? I do recall stating using military experience to monitor crowd control was acceptable, but the work on the ground should be carried out by the police and specialist police units. One of the reasons I agree with implementing a crowd control centre, run by the best qualified people, supports my opinion that if the 2010 protest had initially been diverted to a less prominent location the escalation may not have taken place As it was, there was minimal violence until the army showed up, once in position there was only ever going to be rapid escalation of confrontation, which proved to be the case I am surprised there was no prolonged use of teargas, water cannons or any other anti riot methodology, also how the whole fortress was allowed to be constructed with little disruptive action from the government side I am surprised if the government were convinced that the red shirts wanted 'martyrs', as some here are suggesting, then why did the government send in the troops and provide, seems a bit strange don't you think, or was it just desperate lack of vision? There was no use of tear gas, water cannon. They only came with their guns. There was use of water cannons when the red shirts stormed Thaicom. It didn't do much good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babcock Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 To reiterate: No I understood about 50000 troops were deployed and yes IT IS CLAIMED that up to 250,000 people gathered in Ratchaprasong and generally most stayed around 4 days so there was a big turnover. Interesting you have no conmment on the fake video from ALeG. We had a good laugh about that. Unless you are going to tell us that the redshirts deployed ewoks from Starwars to scurry across the bottom of the screen brandishing blasters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 If my memory serves me well, you once wrote 70,000 soldiers gathered for the final attack on Ratchaprasong. Pity it got removed. Now we have 250,000 at Ratchaprasong AND rotating every few days. History rewritten while you sit at home with a beer and watch TV No I understood about 50000 troops were deployed and yes IT IS CLAIMED that up to 250,000 people gathered in Ratchaprasong and generally most stayed around 4 days so there was a big turnover. Interesting you have no conmment on the above fake video unless you are going to tell us that the redshirts deployed it ewoks from Starwars to scurry across the bottom of the screen brandishing blasters. As I wrote at that time military operations don't work if you do not have space to manoeuvre. In total around 10,000 military personal were involved. I don't know what number was at R'song in the last two days, but IMHO just a few thousand with others just 'standby' in a wider circle. K. Arisman or k. Jatuporn talked about the 'million protester march', In March 2010 k. Nattawut said 250,000. most somewhat more objective estimates seem around 100,000 at the most dropping off to 20,000 - 25,000 later on and even less after the 14th of May 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babcock Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 If the police with their special units trained in crowd control had done their job, the army wouldn't have been involved. Just like in 'normal' countries. Incidentaly some posters defended the Minister of Defence setting up a War Room recently, seeing nothing wrong with using Army experience Would that be the ficticious 478geo you referred to Rubl? I do recall stating using military experience to monitor crowd control was acceptable, but the work on the ground should be carried out by the police and specialist police units. One of the reasons I agree with implementing a crowd control centre, run by the best qualified people, supports my opinion that if the 2010 protest had initially been diverted to a less prominent location the escalation may not have taken place As it was, there was minimal violence until the army showed up, once in position there was only ever going to be rapid escalation of confrontation, which proved to be the case I am surprised there was no prolonged use of teargas, water cannons or any other anti riot methodology, also how the whole fortress was allowed to be constructed with little disruptive action from the government side I am surprised if the government were convinced that the red shirts wanted 'martyrs', as some here are suggesting, then why did the government send in the troops and provide, seems a bit strange don't you think, or was it just desperate lack of vision? There was no use of tear gas, water cannon. They only came with their guns. There was use of water cannons when the red shirts stormed Thaicom. It didn't do much good. and here I quote from Prachetai: "Another clash broke out on April 9 when the UDD protesters, led by Jatuporn Prompan, Nathawut Saikua, Arisman Pongruangrong, and Karun Hosakul, went to the Thaicom satellite station in Pathumthani province to restore their People's Channel cable television to the air; its transmission had been disconnected by the government after the declaration of a state of emergency. The soldiers guarding the satellite station used shields and batons, water cannon, and teargas to stop the red-shirted protesters, but withdrew when they became outnumbered. As a result of the clash, 16 protesters and 5 soldiers were injured. The UDD protesters ended the siege of the satellite station after they reached an agreement with Lt. Gen. Krisda Pankongchuen, the Region 1 Provincial Police chief, soldiers, and the Thaicom executives that the People's Channel broadcast signal would be reconnected. The station remains partially blocked." Following on from this the redshirts regained control of their staion, discovered an arms cache which they returned to the soldiers and given assurances about the station they left and the station was promptly re-seized by the army and "fully blocked" subsequently as I quote from Prachetai: Thailand: End Political Violence, Bring Offenders to Justice Tue, 13/04/2010 - 15:15 . Which part of this do you disagree with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOboe57 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 AFAIK, they did not. On April 10th, the first dispersal effort (and botched, at that) the military used live fire, and if I remember, there were 25 deaths that day. Again, even if a protest is violent, I do not believe that a govt should use lethal force against its own citizens. This is a personal belief. I also believe, and even people who don't agree with me about lethal force can at least see this much, that the government - with a very very large number of security forces - had many other options and tactics at its disposal. Those other options were not used, and in the case of the time-line of events, April 10th was the start of the killing which can be attributed to a poorly planned dispersal (begun shortly before nightfall, for example) and the use of live fire. Those 25 include the Army colonel and staff (five persons) who got one or two grenades lobbed on them. Plus total chaos when some friendly MiB opened fire to help their peaceful red-shirt protesters. If the police with their special units trained in crowd control had done their job, the army wouldn't have been involved. Just like in 'normal' countries. Incidentaly some posters defended the Minister of Defence setting up a War Room recently, seeing nothing wrong with using Army experience BTW if I have nothing else to do and get bored, I'll check this forum to see how many times this discussion can be found. At least a dozen times, would be my guess. [...] It has been pointed out by Robert Armstrongs military expert that had grenades been fired at the soldiers and were seen standard military practice is to shout "grenade" and hit the deck. None of which happened. Hence his view that said grenade was rolled across the floor to the colonel. [...] You should at least know the name of your key witness. It is Robert Amsterdam, not Armstrong and this guy has been hired by Thaksin to rewrite the events of 2010. Apart from the tiny little fact that an M79 grenade does not explode when it is "rolled across the floor to the colonel" you could also ask that Iranian stooge (who lost his legs in such an attempt) how not to employ such kind of explosives. It was fired from a distance of not more than 150 metres as beyond that range the accuracy decreases sharply. With a muzzle velocity 76 m/sec this means that the grenade needed a mere 2 seconds from launch to impact. The soldiers might have heard the rather muffled muzzle blast after half a sec which would have given them another 1,5 secs to determine what it was, where it came from and to take cover. Robert A. is the last person I would cite as credible source on any subject. He messed up Mikhail Khodorkovski's case with his loudmouthing (getting his client some extra time in jail) and he hasn't learned from that since. But he is willing to sell you his granny if the price ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Would that be the ficticious 478geo you referred to Rubl? An honest mistake for which I apologise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babcock Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Sorry a grenade when rolled across the floor with the pin out will explode. Every boy knoes this . I'm surprised you don't. Don't give me lectures on what precise weapon was used because you really don't know. You're only guided by what you have been told by those prosecuting the attacks on the protesters. What nonsense you write. If you'd bothered to read Amsterdam's report it stated the redshirts and the army were about 90 meters apart. Too far to throw a grenade they state. If a redshirt had aimed a grenade launcher at the soldiers methinks it might have been spotted but otherwise what an incredible shot. To hit a group of men; at night, standing behind other men and not in the "firing line". They weren't at the front of the queue. The commander was near the front I think guaging the situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waza Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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