Bangkok's 'Hitler Chic' Trend Riles Tourists, Israeli Envoy

[Ijustwannateach]

I disagree that it is an 'ethnocentric' issue or a 'Thai cultural' issue. It is an educational embarrassment. I am not German, or European, nor do I speak any of the first languages of the 6+million Jewish people who were slaughtered among many others- however, I am aware of the Holocaust and many details of what happened. Both my country and Thailand were involved in something called a *World War* about 70 years ago. There is even some evidence that a number of Thais were involved in helping Jewish people escape the camps.

Now, granted, the students themselves might not know about these things. But the TEACHERS- many of whom were alive during the same time period as I was, and were taught by teachers who were probably alive during World War II- certainly should have known. Especially if they were history or social science teachers.

This is an educational issue, and a very awkward and telling example of how Thailand has failed in the areas of history and social science. There is no excuse for those 'professionals' not to know about one of the most horrifying MAJOR, INTERNATIONALLY STIGMATISED atrocities of the 20th century (I'm not going to try to argue whether it was worse than or better than the US in the Philippines at the turn of the century, or the other 20th century genocidal events such as Rwanda, Stalinist Russia, Yugoslavia-cum-Balkans, or Pol Pot in Cambodia- not to mention the fun the Japanese had- ALL of which history teachers should know about). In fact, the history teachers should also know all about the Latin American and African problems during the century, which were many though not as well known, and have some opinion about the recent US games in the middle East.

The ignorance of the unaware in other countries does not excuse them. The fact that it may be used as a political tool by any or all foreign dignitaries does not excuse them. The fact that knowing about Thailand makes one aware that it has educational problems does not EXCUSE them, though it may be used as an excuse by those who are not in the educational field.

I am an educator, and I know how things are supposed to be. This is not how things are supposed to be, and this international embarrassment is one of the consequences for denial of that problem. Further denial doesn't help the educational state of Thailand, and will simply result in more of these embarrassments.

[Ijustwannateach]

SS, my suggestion about regulations was tongue-in-cheek. No, I don't really expect any of those things.

[necronx99]

I disagree that it is an 'ethnocentric' issue or a 'Thai cultural' issue. It is an educational embarrasment. I am not German, or European, nor do I speak any of the first languages of the 6+million Jewish people who were slaughtered among many others- however, I am aware of the Holocaust and many details of what happened. Both my country and Thailand were involved in something called a *World War* about 70 years ago. There is even some evidence that a number of Thais were involved in helping Jewish people escape the camps.

Now, granted, the students themselves might not know about these things. But the TEACHERS- many of whom were alive during the same time period as I was, and were taught by teachers who were probably alive during World War II- certainly should have known. Especially if they were history or social science teachers.

This is an educational issue, and a very awkward and telling example of how Thailand has failed in the areas of history and social science. There is no excuse for those 'professionals' not to know about one of the most horrifying MAJOR, INTERNATIONALLY STIGMATISED atrocities of the 20th century (I'm not going to try to argue whether it was worse than or better than the US in the Philippines at the turn of the century, or the other 20th century genocidal events such as Rwanda, Stalinist Russia, Yugoslavia-cum-Balkans, or Pol Pot in Cambodia- not to mention the fun the Japanese had- ALL of which history teachers should know about). In fact, the history teachers should also know all about the Latin American and African problems during the century, which were many though not as well known, and have some opinion about the recent US games in the middle East.

The ignorance of the unaware in other countries does not excuse them. The fact that it may be used as a political tool by any or all foreign dignitaries does not excuse them. The fact that knowing about Thailand makes one aware that it has educational problems does not EXCUSE them, though it may be used as an excuse by those who are not in the educational field.

I am an educator, and I know how things are supposed to be. This is not how things are supposed to be, and this international embarrassment is one of the consequences for denial of that problem. Further denial doesn't help the educational state of Thailand, and will simply result in more of these embarrassments.

All well and good, but, if there is a single minutes free time in the current curriculum, I'd rather they concentrate on more important things first, like road rules and sustainable agricultural practices (burn offs). There are many, many more important tasks for educators to achieve in this country before they start in on the heinous crimes of offending the sensibilities of touchy foreigners. Touchy foreigners who, as I've pointed out already, do not hold their own society's treatment of this subject up to any particularly high moral standard.

Edited March 8, 2012 by necronx99

[Ijustwannateach]

The problem isn't the amount of time. Thai students go to school for many more hours than most English-speaking foreigners. Those hours are poorly used, in a great variety of ways- and as you note, ineffectively. All the things you- and *I*- are talking about are theoretically on the curriculum (it's a HUGE curriculum). In the case of the schools with the 'Nazi parade', it is doubtful that the teachers themselves are particularly competent in history- though I would bet they would more quickly be led to understand what would be wrong with doing the same thing in Japanese Imperial uniforms, for instance.

And I would have hoped this didn't need explaining, but the kinds of things that happened in the Holocaust- or in any of the genocidal events- are things that ALL humans theoretically should hold in abhorrence. That's how the whole 'crimes against humanity' thing gets its name. Ideally, it's a concern for all people and not something about which there are 'foreigners'.

From my standpoint, a lot of what happened in recent history- the US atrocities in the middle East and Viet Nam & Cambodia- are crimes against humanity, too. But the people involved have become too powerful to hold responsible. However, it is by keeping the memories of their behaviour alive that justice may eventually be done and the rest of us may learn to avoid letting such things happen again.

[Nisa]

I disagree that it is an 'ethnocentric' issue or a 'Thai cultural' issue. It is an educational embarrasment. I am not German, or European, nor do I speak any of the first languages of the 6+million Jewish people who were slaughtered among many others- however, I am aware of the Holocaust and many details of what happened. Both my country and Thailand were involved in something called a *World War* about 70 years ago. There is even some evidence that a number of Thais were involved in helping Jewish people escape the camps.

Now, granted, the students themselves might not know about these things. But the TEACHERS- many of whom were alive during the same time period as I was, and were taught by teachers who were probably alive during World War II- certainly should have known. Especially if they were history or social science teachers.

This is an educational issue, and a very awkward and telling example of how Thailand has failed in the areas of history and social science. There is no excuse for those 'professionals' not to know about one of the most horrifying MAJOR, INTERNATIONALLY STIGMATISED atrocities of the 20th century (I'm not going to try to argue whether it was worse than or better than the US in the Philippines at the turn of the century, or the other 20th century genocidal events such as Rwanda, Stalinist Russia, Yugoslavia-cum-Balkans, or Pol Pot in Cambodia- not to mention the fun the Japanese had- ALL of which history teachers should know about). In fact, the history teachers should also know all about the Latin American and African problems during the century, which were many though not as well known, and have some opinion about the recent US games in the middle East.

The ignorance of the unaware in other countries does not excuse them. The fact that it may be used as a political tool by any or all foreign dignitaries does not excuse them. The fact that knowing about Thailand makes one aware that it has educational problems does not EXCUSE them, though it may be used as an excuse by those who are not in the educational field.

I am an educator, and I know how things are supposed to be. This is not how things are supposed to be, and this international embarrassment is one of the consequences for denial of that problem. Further denial doesn't help the educational state of Thailand, and will simply result in more of these embarrassments.

Hitler Chic is not something that occurs only in Thailand. It occurs in a number of Asian nations, including Japan (where it is more common). This should indicate to people that WWII history is viewed differently than in the west. Not all that much different than in the US where we learn little about the war against Japan besides Pearl Harbor and the mentioning of Kamikazes and dropping atomic bombs to stop the war and save lives. The vast majority of history taught in grade school is about the European conflict.

Edit: This isn't to say Thailand, like most places, has serious issues when it comes to education but I am not sure I agree they need to be view Hitler and and aspect of a war, they were not involved, the same way western countries do. They are taught about Hitler but just not in the same boogeyman or Satan incarnate view as in the west ... he was simply just another crazed war mongering charismatic leader in history.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Nisa

[Ijustwannateach]

There are unfortunately reasons that Japan isn't as clear on its own history as it might be- and the US is partly to blame. We let them off the hook about it at the war crimes trials because we didn't want some of their criminal medical intelligence coming out in open court to be shared by the new Soviet threat. If they had been properly treated, perhaps the regional memories of history would be somewhat different. I would argue that they should be somewhat different.

In any case, Japan has had political issues over its own history and education of history for many years, and is hardly a good example as an excuse for Thailand's problems with the subject. When I was there, the only way for the liberal teachers at my school to fit the Nanjing massacre into a syllabus was to frame it as an 'English class' where they were shown a foreign language movie on the matter. No permitted Japanese textbooks covered the matter.

[necronx99]

Not all that much different than in the US where we learn little about the war against Japan besides Pearl Harbor and the mentioning of Kamikazes and dropping atomic bombs to stop the war and save lives.

Well there's a whole nother topic. Probably for a different venue though....

[Sing_Sling]

SS, my suggestion about regulations was tongue-in-cheek. No, I don't really expect any of those things.

Got it, I missed the meaning then.

[kerryk]

I disagree that it is an 'ethnocentric' issue or a 'Thai cultural' issue.  It is an educational embarrasment.  I am not German, or European, nor do I speak any of the first languages of the 6+million Jewish people who were slaughtered among many others- however, I am aware of the Holocaust and many details of what happened.  Both my country and Thailand were involved in something called a *World War* about 70 years ago.  There is even some evidence that a number of Thais were involved in helping Jewish people escape the camps.

Now, granted, the students themselves might not know about these things.  But the TEACHERS- many of whom were alive during the same time period as I was, and were taught by teachers who were probably alive during World War II- certainly should have known.  Especially if they were history or social science teachers.

This is an educational issue, and a very awkward and telling example of how Thailand has failed in the areas of history and social science.  There is no excuse for those 'professionals' not to know about one of the most horrifying MAJOR, INTERNATIONALLY STIGMATISED atrocities of the 20th century (I'm not going to try to argue whether it was worse than or better than the US in the Philippines at the turn of the century, or the other 20th century genocidal events such as Rwanda, Stalinist Russia, Yugoslavia-cum-Balkans, or Pol Pot in Cambodia- not to mention the fun the Japanese had- ALL of which history teachers should know about).  In fact, the history teachers should also know all about the Latin American and African problems during the century, which were many though not as well known, and have some opinion about the recent US games in the middle East.

The ignorance of the unaware in other countries does not excuse them.  The fact that it may be used as a political tool by any or all foreign dignitaries does not excuse them.  The fact that knowing about Thailand makes one aware that it has educational problems does not EXCUSE them, though it may be used as an excuse by those who are not in the educational field.

I am an educator, and I know how things are supposed to be.  This is not how things are supposed to be, and this international embarrassment is one of the consequences for denial of that problem.  Further denial doesn't help the educational state of Thailand, and will simply result in more of these embarrassments.

Hitler Chic is not something that occurs only in Thailand. It occurs in a number of Asian nations, including Japan (where it is more common). This should indicate to people that WWII history is viewed differently than in the west.  Not all that much different than in the US where we learn little about the war against Japan besides Pearl Harbor and the mentioning of Kamikazes and dropping atomic bombs to stop the war and save lives. The vast majority of history taught in grade school is about the European conflict.

Edit: This isn't to say Thailand, like most places, has serious issues when it comes to education but I am not sure I agree they need to be view Hitler and and aspect of a war, they were not involved, the same way western countries do. They are taught about Hitler but just not in the same boogeyman or Satan incarnate view as in the west  ... he was simply just another crazed war mongering charismatic leader in history.

Did you teach grade school in the USA and Thailand? If not how do you know this?

[theblether]

I disagree that it is an 'ethnocentric' issue or a 'Thai cultural' issue. It is an educational embarrasment. I am not German, or European, nor do I speak any of the first languages of the 6+million Jewish people who were slaughtered among many others- however, I am aware of the Holocaust and many details of what happened. Both my country and Thailand were involved in something called a *World War* about 70 years ago. There is even some evidence that a number of Thais were involved in helping Jewish people escape the camps.

Now, granted, the students themselves might not know about these things. But the TEACHERS- many of whom were alive during the same time period as I was, and were taught by teachers who were probably alive during World War II- certainly should have known. Especially if they were history or social science teachers.

This is an educational issue, and a very awkward and telling example of how Thailand has failed in the areas of history and social science. There is no excuse for those 'professionals' not to know about one of the most horrifying MAJOR, INTERNATIONALLY STIGMATISED atrocities of the 20th century (I'm not going to try to argue whether it was worse than or better than the US in the Philippines at the turn of the century, or the other 20th century genocidal events such as Rwanda, Stalinist Russia, Yugoslavia-cum-Balkans, or Pol Pot in Cambodia- not to mention the fun the Japanese had- ALL of which history teachers should know about). In fact, the history teachers should also know all about the Latin American and African problems during the century, which were many though not as well known, and have some opinion about the recent US games in the middle East.

The ignorance of the unaware in other countries does not excuse them. The fact that it may be used as a political tool by any or all foreign dignitaries does not excuse them. The fact that knowing about Thailand makes one aware that it has educational problems does not EXCUSE them, though it may be used as an excuse by those who are not in the educational field.

I am an educator, and I know how things are supposed to be. This is not how things are supposed to be, and this international embarrassment is one of the consequences for denial of that problem. Further denial doesn't help the educational state of Thailand, and will simply result in more of these embarrassments.

Hitler Chic is not something that occurs only in Thailand. It occurs in a number of Asian nations, including Japan (where it is more common). This should indicate to people that WWII history is viewed differently than in the west. Not all that much different than in the US where we learn little about the war against Japan besides Pearl Harbor and the mentioning of Kamikazes and dropping atomic bombs to stop the war and save lives. The vast majority of history taught in grade school is about the European conflict.

Edit: This isn't to say Thailand, like most places, has serious issues when it comes to education but I am not sure I agree they need to be view Hitler and and aspect of a war, they were not involved, the same way western countries do. They are taught about Hitler but just not in the same boogeyman or Satan incarnate view as in the west ... he was simply just another crazed war mongering charismatic leader in history.

Did you teach grade school in the USA and Thailand? If not how do you know this?

Victor's history always applies Kerryk, you should know that better than anyone as you are very switched on when it come's to these matters.

We are all very familiar with the USA view of the history of WW2, let me present you with an alternative view.

The US people and Congress actively worked to stay out of WW2.

Some members of Congress were delighted at the prospect of the defeat of Britain.

Some members of Congress encouraged Ireland to collude with the Nazis and re-supply the Wolf Packs.

Congress dilly dallied on the issue of declaring war on Germany after Pearl Harbour.

Germany declared war on America much to the disbelief and dismay of some Congressmen.

In as much as Britain could not have won the war without the US, the US has long refused to face up to uncomfortable truths about their position in relation to Germany prior to the declaration of war.

So let's not be having Selective Truth Disorder, if the greatest and most powerful nation in the world has left it's people ignorant of the truth, where is the shock in people in Thailand being ignorant of things too?

[Nisa]

I disagree that it is an 'ethnocentric' issue or a 'Thai cultural' issue. It is an educational embarrasment. I am not German, or European, nor do I speak any of the first languages of the 6+million Jewish people who were slaughtered among many others- however, I am aware of the Holocaust and many details of what happened. Both my country and Thailand were involved in something called a *World War* about 70 years ago. There is even some evidence that a number of Thais were involved in helping Jewish people escape the camps.

Now, granted, the students themselves might not know about these things. But the TEACHERS- many of whom were alive during the same time period as I was, and were taught by teachers who were probably alive during World War II- certainly should have known. Especially if they were history or social science teachers.

This is an educational issue, and a very awkward and telling example of how Thailand has failed in the areas of history and social science. There is no excuse for those 'professionals' not to know about one of the most horrifying MAJOR, INTERNATIONALLY STIGMATISED atrocities of the 20th century (I'm not going to try to argue whether it was worse than or better than the US in the Philippines at the turn of the century, or the other 20th century genocidal events such as Rwanda, Stalinist Russia, Yugoslavia-cum-Balkans, or Pol Pot in Cambodia- not to mention the fun the Japanese had- ALL of which history teachers should know about). In fact, the history teachers should also know all about the Latin American and African problems during the century, which were many though not as well known, and have some opinion about the recent US games in the middle East.

The ignorance of the unaware in other countries does not excuse them. The fact that it may be used as a political tool by any or all foreign dignitaries does not excuse them. The fact that knowing about Thailand makes one aware that it has educational problems does not EXCUSE them, though it may be used as an excuse by those who are not in the educational field.

I am an educator, and I know how things are supposed to be. This is not how things are supposed to be, and this international embarrassment is one of the consequences for denial of that problem. Further denial doesn't help the educational state of Thailand, and will simply result in more of these embarrassments.

Hitler Chic is not something that occurs only in Thailand. It occurs in a number of Asian nations, including Japan (where it is more common). This should indicate to people that WWII history is viewed differently than in the west. Not all that much different than in the US where we learn little about the war against Japan besides Pearl Harbor and the mentioning of Kamikazes and dropping atomic bombs to stop the war and save lives. The vast majority of history taught in grade school is about the European conflict.

Edit: This isn't to say Thailand, like most places, has serious issues when it comes to education but I am not sure I agree they need to be view Hitler and and aspect of a war, they were not involved, the same way western countries do. They are taught about Hitler but just not in the same boogeyman or Satan incarnate view as in the west ... he was simply just another crazed war mongering charismatic leader in history.

Did you teach grade school in the USA and Thailand? If not how do you know this?

You are showing some limited reasoning with this question. I went to school in the US and have kids who have attended US schools and Thai schools as well as being knowing countless Americans and Thais that I have had discussions with and not mention this information is available just by doing a little research.

[kerryk]

I disagree that it is an 'ethnocentric' issue or a 'Thai cultural' issue.  It is an educational embarrasment.  I am not German, or European, nor do I speak any of the first languages of the 6+million Jewish people who were slaughtered among many others- however, I am aware of the Holocaust and many details of what happened.  Both my country and Thailand were involved in something called a *World War* about 70 years ago.  There is even some evidence that a number of Thais were involved in helping Jewish people escape the camps.

Now, granted, the students themselves might not know about these things.  But the TEACHERS- many of whom were alive during the same time period as I was, and were taught by teachers who were probably alive during World War II- certainly should have known.  Especially if they were history or social science teachers.

This is an educational issue, and a very awkward and telling example of how Thailand has failed in the areas of history and social science.  There is no excuse for those 'professionals' not to know about one of the most horrifying MAJOR, INTERNATIONALLY STIGMATISED atrocities of the 20th century (I'm not going to try to argue whether it was worse than or better than the US in the Philippines at the turn of the century, or the other 20th century genocidal events such as Rwanda, Stalinist Russia, Yugoslavia-cum-Balkans, or Pol Pot in Cambodia- not to mention the fun the Japanese had- ALL of which history teachers should know about).  In fact, the history teachers should also know all about the Latin American and African problems during the century, which were many though not as well known, and have some opinion about the recent US games in the middle East.

The ignorance of the unaware in other countries does not excuse them.  The fact that it may be used as a political tool by any or all foreign dignitaries does not excuse them.  The fact that knowing about Thailand makes one aware that it has educational problems does not EXCUSE them, though it may be used as an excuse by those who are not in the educational field.

I am an educator, and I know how things are supposed to be.  This is not how things are supposed to be, and this international embarrassment is one of the consequences for denial of that problem.  Further denial doesn't help the educational state of Thailand, and will simply result in more of these embarrassments.

Hitler Chic is not something that occurs only in Thailand. It occurs in a number of Asian nations, including Japan (where it is more common). This should indicate to people that WWII history is viewed differently than in the west.  Not all that much different than in the US where we learn little about the war against Japan besides Pearl Harbor and the mentioning of Kamikazes and dropping atomic bombs to stop the war and save lives. The vast majority of history taught in grade school is about the European conflict.

Edit: This isn't to say Thailand, like most places, has serious issues when it comes to education but I am not sure I agree they need to be view Hitler and and aspect of a war, they were not involved, the same way western countries do. They are taught about Hitler but just not in the same boogeyman or Satan incarnate view as in the west  ... he was simply just another crazed war mongering charismatic leader in history.

Did you teach grade school in the USA and Thailand?  If not how do you know this?

You are showing some limited reasoning with this question. I went to school in the US and have kids who have attended US schools and Thai schools as well as being knowing countless Americans and Thais that I have had discussions with and not mention this information is available just by doing a little research.

So, in grade school in Thailand and the USA children are taught about Hitler?

[Nisa]

The Nazi / Hitler card played by every political group.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Nisa

[Nisa]

Hitler Chic is not something that occurs only in Thailand. It occurs in a number of Asian nations, including Japan (where it is more common). This should indicate to people that WWII history is viewed differently than in the west. Not all that much different than in the US where we learn little about the war against Japan besides Pearl Harbor and the mentioning of Kamikazes and dropping atomic bombs to stop the war and save lives. The vast majority of history taught in grade school is about the European conflict.

Edit: This isn't to say Thailand, like most places, has serious issues when it comes to education but I am not sure I agree they need to be view Hitler and and aspect of a war, they were not involved, the same way western countries do. They are taught about Hitler but just not in the same boogeyman or Satan incarnate view as in the west ... he was simply just another crazed war mongering charismatic leader in history.

Did you teach grade school in the USA and Thailand? If not how do you know this?

You are showing some limited reasoning with this question. I went to school in the US and have kids who have attended US schools and Thai schools as well as being knowing countless Americans and Thais that I have had discussions with and not mention this information is available just by doing a little research.

So, in grade school in Thailand and the USA children are taught about Hitler?

My apologies, when I wrote Grade School I was referring to pre-college /university schooling.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Nisa

[folium]

Can you squabble elsewhere or get back on topic, or mods do everyone a favour and close this down, please.

[kerryk]

Can you squabble elsewhere or get back on topic, or mods do everyone a favour and close this down, please.

If children are taught about Hitler in grade school I think is very much on topic. You don't? I find that a bit odd.

[Ijustwannateach]

(my point being above that it doesn't matter what, if anything, the CHILDREN are taught at a young-ish age- I certainly didn't get a lot of details about Hitler until Junior High School in the US- but the TEACHERS should darn well know their history on the subject).

And if Thai children weren't taught in detail about WWII and the 'Final Solution' by high school, that's 1 big problem. If the Thai teachers who become history and social science teachers aren't taught about it by the time they receive licenses to teach those subjects, that's ANOTHER big problem. If this teaching isn't more or less mainstream in the schools, then what the heck?

It is true that there are perhaps some 'politically correct' issues with Thai history around that period. But the actual Thai role could be minimised from a 'big picture' point of view of the major players in the war- and the EFFECTS on Thailand would certainly be easy to talk about. I really hope that that's not the reason for the neglect of this subject.

[Nisa]

And if Thai children weren't taught in detail about WWII and the 'Final Solution' by high school, that's 1 big problem.

Why is that a big problem? There are many many things in history that relate more directly to Thais including aspects of WWII. Why do they need to be taught much more than Hitler was the leader of Germany whose regime was responsible for the extermination of millions of people with a significant portion of them being Jews. Obviously they need to cover it more than one sentence but I hope you get my point.

What we are taught in the west, at least in US public schools & the media, is extremely biased. Over 60,000,000 people or 2.5% of the world population was killed during WWII but few people in the US would be able to tell you this but they certainly are able to tell you the number of Jews killed and to question the number, even from a point of historical accuracy, will have you be labeled antisemitic and in some parts of the world thrown in jail.

There have been many horrible leaders throughout history and many atrocities. Be it a leader responsible for the genocide of 100,000, 1,000,000 or 6,000,000 people ... does it really matter? Evil is evil but like most tragic events in life and history, there comes a time when there is a disconnect from the emotions and it becomes okay to parody ... except of course when it comes to the Nazis and the sole reason for this is that it is a HUGE political propaganda tool used by Israel.

No doubt some people have still have some personal connection to what happened near 70-years ago and have trouble putting this in the past and become emotional anytime they are reminded of this period but that is the case in just about any parody and much comedy in the world.

This OP is about a company selling t-shirts using comical deceptions of modern icons blended with one of the most evil people in modern history. That is all it is and nothing more -- to bring in the holocaust, wwii and education is kind of silly when I think about it except for the fact why this is not silly and that is because of the brainwashing (lack of a better term) done to keep this an emotional issue 70-years later for the political gains of a country. Had it been Bin laden, Saddam, Manson or some other more modern evil leader/person and not Hitler this would not even be a story.

Again, evil is evil and to pretend it is okay to parody somebody responsible for the killing of a few thousand but not okay if the number is radically hire just makes absolutely no sense at all. Thaksin is reportedly responsible for the death of thousand of Thais who were denied trials by execution squads ... not only is parodying him okay but he is also a relevant figure to the lives of most living Thais and Hitler certainly is not.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Nisa

[Nisa]

Not all that long ago (about the same time the story came out about the "Nazi parade" in Chang Mai) I saw my university attending Thai daughter wearing an Iron Cross type ring. I asked her if she knew what it meant and she said it is just fashion. When I explained it was a symbol of the Nazis she understood who the Nazis and Hitler was but said it only represented fashion here (Thailand). I explained how some people in the west would be offended because of how many people died because of this regime and she seemed a bit surprised. Not by the deaths, which she was aware, but that many people in the west would be offended. I didn't tell her to take it off but haven't seen her wear it since. But my point is that what appeared to be missing in her education of WWII wasn't the events of WWII but was the current over sensitivity including laws surrounding speech in other parts of the world when it comes to WWII or specifically when it comes to the atrocities committed against Jews in WWII ... not Gypsies, homosexuals, Poles or Disabled people.

It really makes no sense to me that with all the actual hate groups out there, including The American Nazi Party, that people get emotional and try to make a bigger issue out of something like this which is nothing more than a fashion trend.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Nisa

[Jingthing]

Not all that long ago (about the same time the story came out about the "Nazi parade" in Chang Mai) I saw my university attending Thai daughter wearing an Iron Cross type ring. I asked her if she knew what it meant and she said it is just fashion. When I explained it was a symbol of the Nazis she understood who the Nazis and Hitler was but said it only represented fashion here (Thailand). I explained how some people in the west would be offended because of how many people died because of this regime and she seemed a bit surprised. Not by the deaths, which she was aware, but that many people in the west would be offended. I didn't tell her to take it off but haven't seen her wear it since. But my point is that what appeared to be missing in her education of WWII wasn't the events of WWII but was the current over sensitivity including laws surrounding speech in other parts of the world when it comes to WWII or specifically when it comes to the atrocities committed against Jews in WWII ... not Gypsies, homosexuals, Poles or Disabled people.

Oversensitivity against things like holocaust denial? That's a matter of opinion.

[Nisa]

Not all that long ago (about the same time the story came out about the "Nazi parade" in Chang Mai) I saw my university attending Thai daughter wearing an Iron Cross type ring. I asked her if she knew what it meant and she said it is just fashion. When I explained it was a symbol of the Nazis she understood who the Nazis and Hitler was but said it only represented fashion here (Thailand). I explained how some people in the west would be offended because of how many people died because of this regime and she seemed a bit surprised. Not by the deaths, which she was aware, but that many people in the west would be offended. I didn't tell her to take it off but haven't seen her wear it since. But my point is that what appeared to be missing in her education of WWII wasn't the events of WWII but was the current over sensitivity including laws surrounding speech in other parts of the world when it comes to WWII or specifically when it comes to the atrocities committed against Jews in WWII ... not Gypsies, homosexuals, Poles or Disabled people.

Oversensitivity against things like holocaust denial? That's a matter of opinion.

Yes, These t-shirts in some parts of the world could get both the seller and producer thrown in jail. And this is including labeling people as Holocaust Deniers including historians with no agenda but the truth in examining and researching facts to determine the detailed accuracy of history books, including the number of all peoples who died in concentration camps. I am not going to get into numbers because it really doesn't matter but one only needs to do some research to find that over the years the number of deaths in concentration camps have been revised numerous time by historians but yet the number that is quoted in history books hasn't changed. The bottom line is the numbers quoted are estimates because nobody really knows for sure and given the taboo of the subject, we probably never will have an accurate number which may be much higher than what is typically quoted. But again a couple million plus or minus really makes no difference but what is an issue to me is that this is a taboo subject. Are there laws or groups that come our screaming and accusing people of being supportive of Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Stalin or Hirohito if they question the historical records or popular beliefs of these people? What about the 9/11 conspiracy folks? Should they be labeled as terrorist supporters and should laws be passed to restrict any such speech?

Logic dictates that one should be very skeptical on any subject where laws are needed to curb discussion of the topic. The world is round but at one time you would be thrown in jail for saying it was not. Questioning things regardless if done by people currently considered nuts or by respected individuals should never be illegal and history has shown us that generally groups who try to prevent such discussion are either trying to hide something or perpetuate a tool of control.

Anybody who disbelieves a hugely significant portion of Jews and Gypsies were exterminated during WWII isn't familiar with facts. But people also should be able to openly question and research the accuracy of numbers and historical accounts given to them by folks with an agenda.

And to tie this together with the topic ... it again goes to how some people want to limit free speech when it comes to this subject even when the speech is obviously neither hateful or dangerous or meant to cause offense to anyone. To restrict free discussion of historical events (regardless of your opinions) 70-years ago would seem in itself to be the definition of over sensitivity.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Nisa

[TAWP]

So Hitler t-shirts are bad, Che Guevara t-shirts are good. I imagine for those Cubans whose relatives were executed by the firing squads he oversaw might disagree with other peoples interpretations.

Seems to me its all very ethnocentric to assume that everyone must have the same equal amount of horror at events of the past.

Do I find it appalling? Sure. But then neither am I fond of the trendy Mao and Che t-shirts that many westerners like to wear either. Ignorance is not a solely Thai trait, IMHO.

Thank you for saying it, I agree fully.

[Jingthing]

It's funny how people with no other apparent interest in world history, like Iran's president, are so intensely fascinated by the academic study about the actual number of Jewish victims of the Hitlerian genocide. Free speech, indeed. Propaganda, more like.

BTW, personally I don't think the t-shirts in question should be illegal in any country, and I am not convinced they actually would be ... in ANY country. Of course, if you wore one in Brooklyn you wouldn't be having a particularly calm day out.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

Not all that long ago (about the same time the story came out about the "Nazi parade" in Chang Mai) I saw my university attending Thai daughter wearing an Iron Cross type ring. I asked her if she knew what it meant and she said it is just fashion. When I explained it was a symbol of the Nazis she understood who the Nazis and Hitler was but said it only represented fashion here (Thailand). I explained how some people in the west would be offended because of how many people died because of this regime and she seemed a bit surprised. Not by the deaths, which she was aware, but that many people in the west would be offended. I didn't tell her to take it off but haven't seen her wear it since. But my point is that what appeared to be missing in her education of WWII wasn't the events of WWII but was the current over sensitivity including laws surrounding speech in other parts of the world when it comes to WWII or specifically when it comes to the atrocities committed against Jews in WWII ... not Gypsies, homosexuals, Poles or Disabled people.

Oversensitivity against things like holocaust denial? That's a matter of opinion.

Yes, These t-shirts in some parts of the world could get both the seller and producer thrown in jail. And this is including labeling people as Holocaust Deniers including historians with no agenda but the truth in examining and researching facts to determine the detailed accuracy of history books, including the number of all peoples who died in concentration camps. I am not going to get into numbers because it really doesn't matter but one only needs to do some research to find that over the years the number of deaths in concentration camps have been revised numerous time by historians but yet the number that is quoted in history books hasn't changed. The bottom line is the numbers quoted are estimates because nobody really knows for sure and given the taboo of the subject, we probably never will have an accurate number which may be much higher than what is typically quoted. But again a couple million plus or minus really makes no difference but what is an issue to me is that this is a taboo subject. Are there laws or groups that come our screaming and accusing people of being supportive of Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Stalin or Hirohito if they question the historical records or popular beliefs of these people? What about the 9/11 conspiracy folks? Should they be labeled as terrorist supporters and should laws be passed to restrict any such speech?

Logic dictates that one should be very skeptical on any subject where laws are needed to curb discussion of the topic. The world is round but at one time you would be thrown in jail for saying it was not. Questioning things regardless if done by people currently considered nuts or by respected individuals should never be illegal and history has shown us that generally groups who try to prevent such discussion are either trying to hide something or perpetuate a tool of control.

Anybody who disbelieves a hugely significant portion of Jews and Gypsies were exterminated during WWII isn't familiar with facts. But people also should be able to openly question and research the accuracy of numbers and historical accounts given to them by folks with an agenda.

And to tie this together with the topic ... it again goes to how some people want to limit free speech when it comes to this subject even when the speech is obviously neither hateful or dangerous or meant to cause offense to anyone. To restrict free discussion of historical events (regardless of your opinions) 70-years ago would seem in itself to be the definition of over sensitivity.

You sound suspiciously close to a Holocaust denier yourself, or at least a denier-apologist, which explains a lot about your attitude in this thread. I'd like to warn you at this point informally that it has been mooted in Mods discussion for Holocaust denial to incur very strong penalties on this forum. Put it this way: no more posts in that direction by you or anyone else. You can be 'open-minded' and 'debate' the subject somewhere-effin'-else.

[Ijustwannateach]

And with that cheering move towards Holocaust denial, I think it's time to lay this thread to rest. What fun for us to learn more about the other members....