22 Jobs To Be Paid Above Minimum Wage Rates: Thailand

[arthurwait]

More buying of votes from the mega rich with other peoples money. How many people will be made redundant because of this ? How many businesses will go bust ? Well at least their will be of cheap land and property available for the politicians to snap up and profit on.

One minimum wage rise of 50% followed by more. Do they understand the concept of minimum wage ? Varied minimum wage ?

Spend money on education so people are educated, qualified and actually do the work properly so employers can earn the money to pay better wages.

[swerver]

A few months ago I noticed a restaurant chain having a big drive advertizing for staff.

Sort of wondered then what gives?

Well yesterday being in rip-off city I notice the answer to my wondering mind. Of all the staff in the restaurant were I eat my lunch when I’m in rip-off city there was only one (1) staff remaining from the old crew of before and that most likely was because this staff member was one of the last hires in to the old crew so he started at the April 1 minimum wage already.

Get the idea? All the old staff was well past the April 1 minimum wage level due to having been with the company for any length of time.

So now come April fools day April 1 this company will apply with the minimum wage requirements. Marvelous isn’t it how the Americans can figure things out when they are running a business in PARADISE.

Of course all prices on the NEW Menu had gone up 20 to 30% and often more. Like one item that was Bt.59 now lists for Bt.79.

LOL in LOS

[mijan24]

let me guess... inflation numbers will go up pretty soon and dining out will become even more expensive... they spoke about the minumum wage hike, so why some people who already earned more now will still see their salary increase by another 40% ??? do they suddenly work harder/better ? I guess not

So you are saying in your country "workers" increase their work ethic and also the quality of the widgets they produce Please be honest this just does not happen in todays modern society.

[TAWP]

issued a list of 22 vocational jobs which qualify for rates higher than the Bt300 daily minimum wage

And here we again see a 'some are more equal than others' issue rear its ugly head.

The government have no right intruding into the market place - and the especially have no right to handpick a set of professions that should get better terms than the rest. If there has to be an intrusion, such as taxes, minimum wage etc, then make it the same for all.

The Government has no right? Who do you think should control the wages, Ronald McDonald? Of course they have every right to say what the wages should be and if they are going up then that is heading in the right direction.

Who sets minimum wage in your country?

I'm not in favour of fascism or corporatism. Salaries should be set in negotiations between between employer and employee.

No-one sets minimum wage in my country since we have no minimum wage.

[tlansford]

issued a list of 22 vocational jobs which qualify for rates higher than the Bt300 daily minimum wage

And here we again see a 'some are more equal than others' issue rear its ugly head.

The government have no right intruding into the market place - and the especially have no right to handpick a set of professions that should get better terms than the rest. If there has to be an intrusion, such as taxes, minimum wage etc, then make it the same for all.

The Government has no right? Who do you think should control the wages, Ronald McDonald? Of course they have every right to say what the wages should be and if they are going up then that is heading in the right direction.

Who sets minimum wage in your country?

I'm not in favour of fascism or corporatism. Salaries should be set in negotiations between between employer and employee.

No-one sets minimum wage in my country since we have no minimum wage.

Unions : Are they OK?

The lowest levels of pay are mandated by law in order to make sure that there is a floor in the labor market.

It is one of the small measures governments take to protect their citizens.

Everything above the floor-wage is set between employers and workers. (edit: ok, mostly by the employers. Most employees are in a take-it-or-leave-it position.)

IMO, the government has every right, in fact, obligation, to "intrude", to use your term, in the market place in many many areas. There is no such thing as a "free market". All markets have rules, and the alternative would be chaos.

Edited March 2, 2012 by tlansford

[Thaddeus]

Unions : Are they OK?

The lowest levels of pay are mandated by law in order to make sure that there is a floor in the labor market.

It is one of the small measures governments take to protect their citizens.

Everything above the floor-wage is set between employers and workers. (edit: ok, mostly by the employers. Most employees are in a take-it-or-leave-it position.)

Your first point is correct, your second point is almost correct in that it is set by the employers (let's face it, they are the ones handing out the jobs) but it isn't an arbitrary figure that they just lift out of thin air and I'm sure you know that.

Just as a humourous aside, is that your real face in your avatar?

[TAWP]

Unions : Are they OK?

The lowest levels of pay are mandated by law in order to make sure that there is a floor in the labor market.

It is one of the small measures governments take to protect their citizens.

Everything above the floor-wage is set between employers and workers. (edit: ok, mostly by the employers. Most employees are in a take-it-or-leave-it position.)

IMO, the government has every right, in fact, obligation, to "intrude", to use your term, in the market place in many many areas. There is no such thing as a "free market". All markets have rules, and the alternative would be chaos.

Minimum wage laws are an intrusion in the free market place. Not even all socialist countries implements it. It is the easy way out for politicians that want to purchase victories by from voters.

Anything the government intrudes into ends up being more costly and of worse quality than when not.

Unions are in many cases (see: Europe etc) legalized mafia organizations with primary interest in sustaining their own influence at the cost of the well-being of their members. (There is a reason they are losing members back home.)

To proclaim that the government has an obligation to intrude into the market place shows your political leaning.

[tlansford]

Unions : Are they OK?

The lowest levels of pay are mandated by law in order to make sure that there is a floor in the labor market.

It is one of the small measures governments take to protect their citizens.

Everything above the floor-wage is set between employers and workers. (edit: ok, mostly by the employers. Most employees are in a take-it-or-leave-it position.)

IMO, the government has every right, in fact, obligation, to "intrude", to use your term, in the market place in many many areas. There is no such thing as a "free market". All markets have rules, and the alternative would be chaos.

Minimum wage laws are an intrusion in the free market place. Not even all socialist countries implements it. It is the easy way out for politicians that want to purchase victories by from voters.

Anything the government intrudes into ends up being more costly and of worse quality than when not.

Unions are in many cases (see: Europe etc) legalized mafia organizations with primary interest in sustaining their own influence at the cost of the well-being of their members. (There is a reason they are losing members back home.)

To proclaim that the government has an obligation to intrude into the market place shows your political leaning.

And your comments regarding the government involvement and mafia unions shows your political leaning.

Blanket statements that government involvement always makes everything more costly and lower quality is dogma, not fact.

It also ignores the government's responsibility vis-a-vis the citizens. Examples include employment law, healthcare, and education, among others.

And I'll make another point about free markets that don't exist. All the rules governing the economy as well as the system to settle disputes comes from the government. IP protection, interstate/international trade regulations, environmental protections, the judicial system, financial regulations, etc.

Take all that away and you get chaos.

I curious about socialist countries that do not have a minimum wage...

[tlansford]

Unions : Are they OK?

The lowest levels of pay are mandated by law in order to make sure that there is a floor in the labor market.

It is one of the small measures governments take to protect their citizens.

Everything above the floor-wage is set between employers and workers. (edit: ok, mostly by the employers. Most employees are in a take-it-or-leave-it position.)

Your first point is correct, your second point is almost correct in that it is set by the employers (let's face it, they are the ones handing out the jobs) but it isn't an arbitrary figure that they just lift out of thin air and I'm sure you know that.

Just as a humourous aside, is that your real face in your avatar?

Agree with you, wages are not arbitrary above the floor limits. Some employees are more fortunate than others in their ability to take-it-or-leave-it and find another job.

And more humor, is that your real face, too?

[TAWP]

And your comments regarding the government involvement and mafia unions shows your political leaning.

Blanket statements that government involvement always makes everything more costly and lower quality is dogma, not fact.

It also ignores the government's responsibility vis-a-vis the citizens. Examples include employment law, healthcare, and education, among others.

And I'll make another point about free markets that don't exist. All the rules governing the economy as well as the system to settle disputes comes from the government. IP protection, interstate/international trade regulations, environmental protections, the judicial system, financial regulations, etc.

Take all that away and you get chaos.

I curious about socialist countries that do not have a minimum wage...

Governments only responsibility is to protect the citizens basic inalienable rights and the right to have no intrusion on these rights by others.

You have no right to have a high salary, post-grad education, good healthcare or all the candy you want to eat. Those things are earned.

Your point in that there currently is no free market place is right - and that is the problem. If the market place was truly free in Thailand, and not corporatist, then the rice-farmers wouldn't get the bad end of the stick at every turn as is the case now.

IP protection is typical government over-reach. It ranges from government sanctioned monopoly (patents, over-reaching trademarks) to the government running the errand of the Big Corporations against consumers - instead of being a shield for the consumers against fraudulent Corporations - that is the often used excuse (trademarks as protection against low-quality copies, copyright etc).

Sweden, a socialist nation, doesn't have minimum wage set by law.

Edited March 2, 2012 by TAWP

[pattayadingo]

Either a % rate across the board or a simple minimum wage would have done.

No matter what is done those with money and those who are employers will always moan.

[mijan24]

It would appear there are some ill informed posters.

Wage rates for the same profession (eg cook) are different in different parts of the country and this applys all over the world dictated by cost of living and living conditions. Governments recognise this and have tax concessions for those working/living in certain areas to assist in offsetting these higherliving (existing) costs.

[anterian]

Anterian- yes it does occur to me, I never want you to try to please me with what you write, I only look at your posting history to give me pleasure. What my post said was true, and the truth usually hurts, especially those who can only think one way--the denial way.

I do apologise to you for using the word red, should have said Those who support this government, by the way did you forget to agree or disagree with my post or are you after brownie points again.

The concept of a minimum wage is tricky, my first instinct is it is wrong and market forces should apply. However, on further though and with direct personal experience I see the flaws in this, business owners may simply organise a cartel to impose a low wage on employees. The employees fight back with their own cartel, called a Trade union. Yet this can lead to strikes, industrial action and disruption of trade, which damages the nation. As a result most countries with strong governments impose a base line minimum wage.

So returning to your question, and with respect to Thailand, I support the concept of a minimum wage but feel that Thailand is not going about it in an effective manner. Ideally unions and employers should negotiate as equal partners with the government as a sort of referee, in reality this rarely works, collective bargaining rarely takes external economic factors into consideration, as we have seen in Greece. In Greece the unions are too strong, in Thailand they are too weak or non existent.

So perhaps you can understand that I cannot give a straight yes/no answer to your question. I see a minimum wage as essential but not the way Thailand is going about it.

[Sydebolle]

Why do they use April 1st as a launch date for these types of thing?

April 1st is only an informal holiday in parts of the western world; in the Asian countries it's generally just another day. I see for Thailand, 1 April is Civil Service Day. Also, Apr 1st is halfway through the Thai govt fiscal year which runs from 1 Oct-30 Sep...maybe starting a higher cost program half way through the fiscal year has something to do with it. Or, the date was pulled from a lottery bowl.

Nope, in the west we call it April's Fool Day - here it is called Civil Service Day. Never read a more true explanation indeed!

[Reasonableman]

And your comments regarding the government involvement and mafia unions shows your political leaning.

Blanket statements that government involvement always makes everything more costly and lower quality is dogma, not fact.

It also ignores the government's responsibility vis-a-vis the citizens. Examples include employment law, healthcare, and education, among others.

And I'll make another point about free markets that don't exist. All the rules governing the economy as well as the system to settle disputes comes from the government. IP protection, interstate/international trade regulations, environmental protections, the judicial system, financial regulations, etc.

Take all that away and you get chaos.

I curious about socialist countries that do not have a minimum wage...

Governments only responsibility is to protect the citizens basic inalienable rights and the right to have no intrusion on these rights by others.

You have no right to have a high salary, post-grad education, good healthcare or all the candy you want to eat. Those things are earned.

Your point in that there currently is no free market place is right - and that is the problem. If the market place was truly free in Thailand, and not corporatist, then the rice-farmers wouldn't get the bad end of the stick at every turn as is the case now.

IP protection is typical government over-reach. It ranges from government sanctioned monopoly (patents, over-reaching trademarks) to the government running the errand of the Big Corporations against consumers - instead of being a shield for the consumers against fraudulent Corporations - that is the often used excuse (trademarks as protection against low-quality copies, copyright etc).

Sweden, a socialist nation, doesn't have minimum wage set by law.

But, unlike Thailand, it does have a comprehensive social security system, mostly funded by taxation. Given the tax base in Thailand, a major challenge.

The Swedish social security is mainly handled by the Swedish Social Insurance Agency and encompasses many separate benefits.[8] The major ones are:

"Barnbidrag" and "Föräldrapenning": Monetary support for children up to 16, and benefits to be able to be home from work to take care of their children for up to 480 days per child. It also includes special benefits to care about sick and disabled children.

"Bostadsbidrag": Housing allowances for anyone who otherwise can't afford housing.

"Sjukpenning", "Sjukersättning" and "Handikappersättning": Benefits if you are ill or disabled and can't work.

"Ålderspension", "Garantipension": Benefits for those who have retired.

"Försörjningsstöd": Benefits for anyone (incl their children) who otherwise can't get a reasonable standard of living. This is given out purely on a need-bases and handled by each municipality's social service.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Reasonableman

[ginjag]

This bodge it -fix it policy is so stupid, as many posters have said why not ALL Thailand ????  why 7 provinces and the chosen ones are paying the said min already so there is not April 1 change.  So it's SOD the other 80 provinces ???  could you imagine in England if Lincolnshire was given a min wage of 200 quid--but Yorkshire still only had 150 quid. This stupid wage decision causes hate among it's people, it hurts. The decision is opposite to what the normal government would do. does it mean the government are arse licking the 7 provinces, or as I said no big deal if these better off areas are paying it anyway. If you cannot make a fair and just decision for your people do not make one at all.  15,000 bht for some =tablets for some=300 bht for some= these are examples of WRONG, hence my anger about this government---warped.

[livinthailandos]

Here's my thoughts on this issue

1. While they say 22 vocational jobs which qualify for rates higher than the Bt 300 daily, at the end of the day it really comes down to the employer and employee.

2. The information on here must be not well laid out because I've tried googling various search terms of

Thailand Wage Tripartite Committee

What is Thailand Spa Service class 1 and class 2 ( not suprising you can't find anything )

3. Ever article I've read regarding how they are trying to up the minimum wage seems to constantly take steps forwards and backwards on the information, plus then on top of that I hear about 15,000 baht for new graduates for the government sector or something like this article comes along.

4. I suspect in the short term if there is another government election to happen, they to will promise higher minimum wages as well.

At the end of the day for me no matter what officals from any ministry of government here in thailand say it might as well be utter non sense. I believe all of these so called officals in government literally live in fantasy land everyday of there lives.

Can anyone on here show me where to find the so called differences between

Thai - food cook position class 2

Traditional Masseurs Classes 1,2,3

Spa Service people in class 1,2

in my many years of being in thailand I've never heard of anything like this.

[hellodolly]

issued a list of 22 vocational jobs which qualify for rates higher than the Bt300 daily minimum wage

And here we again see a 'some are more equal than others' issue rear its ugly head.

The government have no right intruding into the market place - and the especially have no right to handpick a set of professions that should get better terms than the rest. If there has to be an intrusion, such as taxes, minimum wage etc, then make it the same for all.

The Government has no right? Who do you think should control the wages, Ronald McDonald? Of course they have every right to say what the wages should be and if they are going up then that is heading in the right direction.

Who sets minimum wage in your country?

Setting minimum wage is not the issue. It's the micromanaging of the pay that's a terrible idea. Choosing select provinces, select professions, and then select levels of skills within those professions to receive different minimum wages smacks of too much government interference.

One minimum wage for the whole country is enough.

Next thing you know the government will be telling you how to pull up your pants.

I guess they figure as they can't govern they might try there hand at ruining bossiness.

[Thaddeus]

issued a list of 22 vocational jobs which qualify for rates higher than the Bt300 daily minimum wage

And here we again see a 'some are more equal than others' issue rear its ugly head.

The government have no right intruding into the market place - and the especially have no right to handpick a set of professions that should get better terms than the rest. If there has to be an intrusion, such as taxes, minimum wage etc, then make it the same for all.

The Government has no right? Who do you think should control the wages, Ronald McDonald?

In McDonalds, then yes.

As long as it is above the 'applies to all flat rate for the entire country' they should have no say in what a Burger Flipper Class 2 gets paid.

[tlansford]

And your comments regarding the government involvement and mafia unions shows your political leaning.

Blanket statements that government involvement always makes everything more costly and lower quality is dogma, not fact.

It also ignores the government's responsibility vis-a-vis the citizens. Examples include employment law, healthcare, and education, among others.

And I'll make another point about free markets that don't exist. All the rules governing the economy as well as the system to settle disputes comes from the government. IP protection, interstate/international trade regulations, environmental protections, the judicial system, financial regulations, etc.

Take all that away and you get chaos.

I curious about socialist countries that do not have a minimum wage...

Governments only responsibility is to protect the citizens basic inalienable rights and the right to have no intrusion on these rights by others.

You have no right to have a high salary, post-grad education, good healthcare or all the candy you want to eat. Those things are earned.

Your point in that there currently is no free market place is right - and that is the problem. If the market place was truly free in Thailand, and not corporatist, then the rice-farmers wouldn't get the bad end of the stick at every turn as is the case now.

IP protection is typical government over-reach. It ranges from government sanctioned monopoly (patents, over-reaching trademarks) to the government running the errand of the Big Corporations against consumers - instead of being a shield for the consumers against fraudulent Corporations - that is the often used excuse (trademarks as protection against low-quality copies, copyright etc).

Sweden, a socialist nation, doesn't have minimum wage set by law.

To go further would take us beyond the scope of this thread. But I would begin by discussing what your list of inalienable rights are.

For example, I notice that you don't include the right to healthcare, and I would. You don't include the right to education (at least it stops at some level), and I would.

So maybe if we agreed on the list of inalienable rights, then we would agree on more things.

Again, it starts to leave the topic of this thread, but I don't agree with you on IP rights, and I would include copyrights (for example, very applicable to things like software). I think that it has long since been proven that these protections foster innovation and help the commercial sector develop.

And no, Sweden does not have a national minimum wage. Neither does Germany. But both countries set wages by sector through negotiations, so they do have defacto minimum wages. Additionally, in neither of those 2 countries could it be said that they do not have a national minimum wage due to a Libertarian political philosophy.

[TAWP]

For example, I notice that you don't include the right to healthcare, and I would. You don't include the right to education (at least it stops at some level), and I would.

The right to receive good Healthcare and Education can never be a right since it is then taken by force from others, by forcing others to work and supply it.

Now, if these was things we could conjure up from thin air or get it via matrix-like plugins, we could perhaps have an argument about it.

[arthurwait]

Here's my thoughts on this issue

1. While they say 22 vocational jobs which qualify for rates higher than the Bt 300 daily, at the end of the day it really comes down to the employer and employee.

2. The information on here must be not well laid out because I've tried googling various search terms of

Thailand Wage Tripartite Committee

What is Thailand Spa Service class 1 and class 2 ( not suprising you can't find anything )

3. Ever article I've read regarding how they are trying to up the minimum wage seems to constantly take steps forwards and backwards on the information, plus then on top of that I hear about 15,000 baht for new graduates for the government sector or something like this article comes along.

4. I suspect in the short term if there is another government election to happen, they to will promise higher minimum wages as well.

At the end of the day for me no matter what officals from any ministry of government here in thailand say it might as well be utter non sense. I believe all of these so called officals in government literally live in fantasy land everyday of there lives.

Can anyone on here show me where to find the so called differences between

Thai - food cook position class 2

Traditional Masseurs Classes 1,2,3

Spa Service people in class 1,2

in my many years of being in thailand I've never heard of anything like this.

Christ knows. Either they don't exist and it's just a delaying tatic or college qualifications that most of their voters couldn't afford to get anyway. If they do already exist perhaps people with them are already paid above the proposed rate and yet again this is all empty gestures by a Mr T government.

[Thaddeus]

And your comments regarding the government involvement and mafia unions shows your political leaning.

Blanket statements that government involvement always makes everything more costly and lower quality is dogma, not fact.

It also ignores the government's responsibility vis-a-vis the citizens. Examples include employment law, healthcare, and education, among others.

And I'll make another point about free markets that don't exist. All the rules governing the economy as well as the system to settle disputes comes from the government. IP protection, interstate/international trade regulations, environmental protections, the judicial system, financial regulations, etc.

Take all that away and you get chaos.

I curious about socialist countries that do not have a minimum wage...

Governments only responsibility is to protect the citizens basic inalienable rights and the right to have no intrusion on these rights by others.

You have no right to have a high salary, post-grad education, good healthcare or all the candy you want to eat. Those things are earned.

Your point in that there currently is no free market place is right - and that is the problem. If the market place was truly free in Thailand, and not corporatist, then the rice-farmers wouldn't get the bad end of the stick at every turn as is the case now.

IP protection is typical government over-reach. It ranges from government sanctioned monopoly (patents, over-reaching trademarks) to the government running the errand of the Big Corporations against consumers - instead of being a shield for the consumers against fraudulent Corporations - that is the often used excuse (trademarks as protection against low-quality copies, copyright etc).

Sweden, a socialist nation, doesn't have minimum wage set by law.

To go further would take us beyond the scope of this thread. But I would begin by discussing what your list of inalienable rights are.

For example, I notice that you don't include the right to healthcare, and I would. You don't include the right to education (at least it stops at some level), and I would.

So maybe if we agreed on the list of inalienable rights, then we would agree on more things.

Again, it starts to leave the topic of this thread, but I don't agree with you on IP rights, and I would include copyrights (for example, very applicable to things like software). I think that it has long since been proven that these protections foster innovation and help the commercial sector develop.

And no, Sweden does not have a national minimum wage. Neither does Germany. But both countries set wages by sector through negotiations, so they do have defacto minimum wages. Additionally, in neither of those 2 countries could it be said that they do not have a national minimum wage due to a Libertarian political philosophy.

Rights.... you talk about rights, which was the last Thai government who cared about the rights of ordinary people or any government for that matter.

Here's a clue.

It starts with none and ends in of them.

Do you think for one second that the elected care about the poor or for that matter you, if you do then you are sadly deluded.

Carry on with what you were saying now, it's pointless, but the only breath you are wasting is your own.

[mijan24]

Why do they use April 1st as a launch date for these types of thing?

April 1st is only an informal holiday in parts of the western world; in the Asian countries it's generally just another day. I see for Thailand, 1 April is Civil Service Day. Also, Apr 1st is halfway through the Thai govt fiscal year which runs from 1 Oct-30 Sep...maybe starting a higher cost program half way through the fiscal year has something to do with it. Or, the date was pulled from a lottery bowl.

Nope, in the west we call it April's Fool Day - here it is called Civil Service Day. Never read a more true explanation indeed!

The post of the week

[tlansford]

For example, I notice that you don't include the right to healthcare, and I would. You don't include the right to education (at least it stops at some level), and I would.

The right to receive good Healthcare and Education can never be a right since it is then taken by force from others, by forcing others to work and supply it.

Now, if these was things we could conjure up from thin air or get it via matrix-like plugins, we could perhaps have an argument about it.

That's an interesting perspective. We'll have to come back to this again in an appropriate thread.

[kimamey]

How do they define a "Day" of wokr? I mean in their labour law, not in actual practice.

I've mentioned this many times before. The easiest way to do this is set a minimum hourly rate which as far as I know is how it's normally done.

[kimamey]

Just explaining why April 1st, it is the start of the American tax year (used to be also in the UK but we changed it to the 6th). Thailand seems to get many ideas from America, Thanksgiving, Halloween, Valentine's day, etc.

I think you may be wrong about the UK tax year. I believe the year used to start on 25th March (Lady Day) under the Julian calendar which was still used in Britain until the mid 1700s. When the Gregorian calender was adopted the date became 5th April due to the calenders being 11 days out of sync and people such as tax authorities and landlords not wanting to lose money. The change to 6th April has something to do with a Julian leap day but I'm not sure why. This is the fiscal year for income and other personal taxes. The financial year for government finances and some corporation tax starts on 1st April.

[anterian]

Just explaining why April 1st, it is the start of the American tax year (used to be also in the UK but we changed it to the 6th). Thailand seems to get many ideas from America, Thanksgiving, Halloween, Valentine's day, etc.

I think you may be wrong about the UK tax year. I believe the year used to start on 25th March (Lady Day) under the Julian calendar which was still used in Britain until the mid 1700s. When the Gregorian calender was adopted the date became 5th April due to the calenders being 11 days out of sync and people such as tax authorities and landlords not wanting to lose money. The change to 6th April has something to do with a Julian leap day but I'm not sure why. This is the fiscal year for income and other personal taxes. The financial year for government finances and some corporation tax starts on 1st April.

You are probably correct, the main point of my post was that for some reason the Thais seem to have copied us.

[whybother]

You are probably correct, the main point of my post was that for some reason the Thais seem to have copied us.

Except in this case they haven't. The Thai tax year is 1 Jan to 31 Dec. Starting the increase in minimum wages on April 1 has nothing to do with the tax year. ... unless you're suggesting that this is a covert move to change the Thai tax year to April - March.

[yoshiwara]

And your comments regarding the government involvement and mafia unions shows your political leaning.

Blanket statements that government involvement always makes everything more costly and lower quality is dogma, not fact.

It also ignores the government's responsibility vis-a-vis the citizens. Examples include employment law, healthcare, and education, among others.

And I'll make another point about free markets that don't exist. All the rules governing the economy as well as the system to settle disputes comes from the government. IP protection, interstate/international trade regulations, environmental protections, the judicial system, financial regulations, etc.

Take all that away and you get chaos.

I curious about socialist countries that do not have a minimum wage...

Governments only responsibility is to protect the citizens basic inalienable rights and the right to have no intrusion on these rights by others.

You have no right to have a high salary, post-grad education, good healthcare or all the candy you want to eat. Those things are earned.

Your point in that there currently is no free market place is right - and that is the problem. If the market place was truly free in Thailand, and not corporatist, then the rice-farmers wouldn't get the bad end of the stick at every turn as is the case now.

IP protection is typical government over-reach. It ranges from government sanctioned monopoly (patents, over-reaching trademarks) to the government running the errand of the Big Corporations against consumers - instead of being a shield for the consumers against fraudulent Corporations - that is the often used excuse (trademarks as protection against low-quality copies, copyright etc).

Sweden, a socialist nation, doesn't have minimum wage set by law.

To go further would take us beyond the scope of this thread. But I would begin by discussing what your list of inalienable rights are.

For example, I notice that you don't include the right to healthcare, and I would. You don't include the right to education (at least it stops at some level), and I would.

So maybe if we agreed on the list of inalienable rights, then we would agree on more things.

Again, it starts to leave the topic of this thread, but I don't agree with you on IP rights, and I would include copyrights (for example, very applicable to things like software). I think that it has long since been proven that these protections foster innovation and help the commercial sector develop.

And no, Sweden does not have a national minimum wage. Neither does Germany. But both countries set wages by sector through negotiations, so they do have defacto minimum wages. Additionally, in neither of those 2 countries could it be said that they do not have a national minimum wage due to a Libertarian political philosophy.

When someone refers to 'rights', 'inalienable rights' in an economic context, you just know they are talking so much hot air. They are not living in the real world when it comes to practical implementation where there is a real cost and you just know it is a part of the armoury of weak reformist posturing. Which is where these proposals are just about located. Not even across the board in Thailand. So not even a minimum wage policy. Ask yourself this. Does it apply to or make a difference to land labourers in the North East and does it come out of the pockets of the North Eastern landowners?

Edited March 5, 2012 by yoshiwara