Analysis: Beginning Of The End Of Thaksin?

[thaigene2]

.... i am terribly worried about present political situation. Both vocal fractions, thaksin and sondhi crowd, are steering the country into a very dangerous situation. I do not have the option to simply leave as some guest (barflys as well as snotty expats) might have, as i have numerous responsibilities here. Many people here do depend on me, and one of my responsibilities is to help educating them on politics, and to guard them against the vested interests trying to exploit them.

Yes. Me too. What this country badly needs (and is rapidly losing) is a free press - devoid of factional backings and dubious agendas. And it needs that free, critical reporting media in THAI LANGUAGE as well as English. Someday have someone read you the headlines of Thairath or Daily News. You'll shake your head.

(If you're not aware of how the Thai-language media report issues, you ought to read Duncan McCargo's book on press reporting in Thailand. )

Thais need to better understand the multitude of vested interests by the people who are beaking off all the time. From Sondhi to Thaksin and all the other rich elites here they need to be 'outed'..

But the way the system works now that won't happen. The journalists/editors here are either afraid, kreng jai, on the take themselves, or following the editorial slant of the business/owner of the paper/broadcaster. So you need to use your intelligence to navigate what is possibly true and what is probably grossly exagerated..so I agree with you. It's getting dangerous cause the Thais don't undestand the level of manipulation going on in the editorial rooms.

As neo-colonialist and repulsive as this sounds, I really think what's needed is a news agency, newspaper and TV/Radio station run by farangs, who have sole direction of editorial policy and as long as they don't touch the subjects of religion or monarchy (clearly out of bounds), THEY can run stories that THEY think are important to Thai people. This is extraordinarily presumptious and insulting..I know! But I think it's the only way to get the real truth out to the masses.

Will never happen of course, because Thai law won;t allow foreigners to work as domestic news reporters/editors (though we do see a couple in Bangkok Post and Nation). Otherwise, it's one of those 'closed' occupations to foreigners. Even the foreign correspondents (working for foreign news agencies) get pressured occasionally and can't always trust their Thai colleagues to help them get the REAL story when they are reporting on Thai issues.

Think it's getting worse..you're right. My wife is a Thaksin supporter..and I try to explain that he is still part of this elite group of people who've run the country for decades..regardless of what TRT says...but she doesn't get it. Told her how he sold computers to his own police department when he was still a police officer and asked her if she thought that was OK. She said sure why not? TIT pal.

[ColPyat]

Think it's getting worse..you're right. My wife is a Thaksin supporter..and I try to explain that he is still part of this elite group of people who've run the country for decades..regardless of what TRT says...but she doesn't get it. Told her how he sold computers to his own police department when he was still a police officer and asked her if she thought that was OK. She said sure why not? TIT pal.

I am fortunate that my wife despises Thaksin (and most other politicians ). Otherwise i fear we would have serious problems in our relationship. The advantage in being with someone who has not even the barest minimum of formal education is that she did not go through the terrible nationalistic brainwashing. Having been exposed to many foreign countries in both Asia and Europe, avidly reads books translated into Thai, she learned to make up her own mind without the usual Thai filters.

Regarding Thai journalism. I feel the biggest problem is the salaries. Political interference to some degree you have almost everywhere, increasingly today so in the age of the global dictatorships of the multinational corperations with their the spindoctors. Thai reporters, most with university degrees, working for the national press make about 10K Baht a month. Freelancer fees are lower than that. A food vendor makes more money.

I don't think that farang involvement would make things any better. If you look at the vast majority of foreign correspondents working from Thailand - they don't speak Thai, and have even less clue about the huge complexities of Thai society.

Visiting editorial offices of the large Thai newspapers and chatting with the reporters is very interesting. Unfortunately very few foreigners do that. Those journalists are generally really clued up about what is going on here, and there is a lot to learn from them. Problem of course is that what they know, and what they can write are completely different matters. Especially today, when many carry a lot of fear showing their own political opinions to openly.

A huge problem is that upcountry very few people read newspapers, and mostly get informed via TV news, or by the only visible political party upcountry - TRT. TV is largely government/military controlled, while in the newspapers you can find far more critical and diverse articles fom a variety of columnists.

The only hope for the distant future here I see is that the Thaksin government has politicised the village people to some degree, and therefore has started a process that might lead one day into his own downfall. Before villagers never cared much about who rules them - all parties just came only to get votes never to be seen afterwards. It is inevitable that one day they will realise that Thaksin cheated them with his populitic programs, but by then they will not stop caring about politics anymore.

Most city based opponents of Thaksin do not realise that change in Thailand is going to take a very long time, and unfortunately society here will have to go through many very painful changes before things will go better. I believe that right now we are at the beginning of some very painful time.

[Cassandra]

From what you say, you are certainly a guest in this country.Nobody is suggesting you have no right to express an opinion, merely that it be done with discretion.Ultimately the political direction of this country is a matter for the Thai people, not for you or for me.Nobody is suggesting you "shut up".

I am not sure what to make of your final sentence since it is so sloppily written.However by one interpretation -"some people in real life off the internet might react rather negative" -it seems to be threatening which could have you banned from the forum.I shall give you the benefit of the doubt on this occasion.

And as a legal guardian of a Thai national i do have the right to voice my opinion on his behalf until he comes of age. Which also makes me a bit more than a "guest".

You are free to interpret my post in any way you want. Isn't language beautyful? it can be so ambiguous...

Actually, that is one of the particular joys of the Thai language, endless subtleties that can be expressed in one innocent sentence.

Anyhow, back to topic. Whatever you think of foreigners expressing their political opinions, i am terribly worried about present political situation. Both vocal fractions, thaksin and sondhi crowd, are steering the country into a very dangerous situation. I do not have the option to simply leave as some guest (barflys as well as snotty expats) might have, as i have numerous responsibilities here. Many people here do depend on me, and one of my responsibilities is to help educating them on politics, and to guard them against the vested interests trying to exploit them.

No, of course you don't have the right to voice your opinion on his behalf.There are many of us who are heads of household which include Thai nationals so your position is hardly unique.What you do have the right to do,in fact the obligation, is to teach your kids to be honest, decent and kind.I am sure you do this and with this support they will embark well prepared into life.I share some of your concerns but you are with respect working yourself up into a lather on matters which are for the Thais to decide on.By all means let's have your opinion however -I accept that it's sometimes necessary to let off steam.

[ColPyat]

No, of course you don't have the right to voice your opinion on his behalf.There are many of us who are heads of household which include Thai nationals so your position is hardly unique.What you do have the right to do,in fact the obligation, is to teach your kids to be honest, decent and kind.I am sure you do this and with this support they will embark well prepared into life.I share some of your concerns but you are with respect working yourself up into a lather on matters which are for the Thais to decide on.By all means let's have your opinion however -I accept that it's sometimes necessary to let off steam.

I guess, that is a matter we might have to agree to disagree.

I was brought up in a rather internationalistic manner with family friends from all ethnicies and nationalities. Anybody could voice his/her opinions about anything as long as they were reasonable and educated. Uneducated crap was taken apart by reason and not by insults.

The logic of nationalism and related effects, classism and racism though never played a role, and i have to admit that i still cannot understand its logic, only its utter stupidity.

One interesting event was when i voted during a village council here. Some outsiders who newly bought land there appeared to have a slight problem with the sole farang raising his hand in those issues at debate. The puyaiban's opinion on the matter was, that this is the village, and our family, and that i have earned every right to vote, debate, and voice my opinion, and that he is glad for any constructive input i can give on matters he has little knowledge about.

Which, i find rather interesting, because it appears that the ideas of "democracy" and "tolerance" are far more evident in Thailand's backward villages, then in Thai-Chinese dominated politics and business classes. Doesn't it appear funny to you that the most rabid nationalists in Thailand are found to be in the Thai-Chinese classes. The people whose ancestors only very recently immigrated into Thailand? Doesn't that reflect more on their own insecurity in Thailand than on Thai culture itself.

Be more Thai than the Thais, and introduce a Chinese sythem...

"Thai Rak Thai" - founded by majority ethnic Chinese, led by a man whose personal background is far more Chinese than Thai.

[Heng]

Cassandra

Thailand is run by only 2 or 3000 VERY rich and influential, and primarily, 'ethnic minority' families. They got that way by doing guangxi deals with each other while the natives were kept at arms length in service jobs and in underfunded 'rote'-style state school systems with no chance of rising above their class station.. Since you're so learned I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at..(sorry for the hanging participle)

As IF we have things that organized. All conspiracy theory.

However many families it is, the number is more like 10 million 'ethnic minority' folks who own most of the economy. It isn't so different from any nation with similar business oriented / family oriented (such as many Jewish-American, Italian-American, Wasp/Skull and Bones Americans etc.) populations. Why not expand on your underlying meaning and call the whole problem the "ethnic minority question" ?

There is no law preventing your team from practicing more and perhaps making the playoffs next year. I've seen the talent though, and wish you good luck.

[ColPyat]

As IF we have things that organized. All conspiracy theory.

Of course you haven't, otherwise there wouldn't be that much mismanagement and consistent infighting about who's the next ruling fraction that is gonna rip the people off.

[haha]

It seems that the senators claimed that he was involved in the business transaction but did not say what he did that constituted involvement but they wanted the court to investigate anyway. This is sort of like a fishing expedition...."we think he did something wrong but we don't know what it was so you go spend taxpayers money to find out based solely on our expectations". This is usually considered bad form in juristic circles. If you want a court to organize a proceeding you need to have some idea of what the infraction is that you want them to investigate. Even if you have no evidence you need to at least say what it is that has been done....evidently that was not done here.

I don't know all the specifics, but from the newspapers, I gather what pm thaksin did was he took advantage of some tax loopholes. ..which is legal.

I read, he employed some keen accountants to help him do this thus ensuring he did not do anything against the law.

the resulting turmoil and demonstrations tell me that many people don't like these loopholes.

so, if people are that much against the status quo, then, the next logical step is to change the current laws to plug these loopholes that they don't like. right?

....let's see if they do this.

One important thing you forgot to mention chownah was that he first manipilated all the relevant laws that allowed him to legally cheat the Thai people and there country.

When you put this into your assessment it makes your interpretation look a little bit off the point

of the fact that he and others colluded to achieve the outcome over a long period while in office, and more important while he was prime minister of Thailand.

And that is a fact.......................................

marshbags

"manipulated"?

as I understand it, there are like 500 people involved in the decisions made here in thailand. pm thaksin is just one man. are you suggesting that he paid off all these other people?

I guess it would be possible, but then, that would be one sorry situation.

that is, if all the elected officials were that bad. that would be hard to believe.

as for saying he legally cheated the thai people and their country. remarks like that without proof can be considered slanderous.

how would you like it if someone lied to your boss telling him that you did something you didn't do, and you lost your job because of that person's lies?

one other person mentioned that he is a dictator. my response to that is - if he elected by a majority of people in his country, how can you say he is a dictator?

if you are so against pm thaksin, then, I suggest you work hard to convince other people not to vote for him in the next election. ..or, convince other people to put a limit to the number of times someone can be elected as the PM.

..by the way, just how many times can someone be elected pm here in thailand? in the states they are limited to 2 terms. just curious.

"one other person mentioned that he is a dictator. my response to that is - if he elected by a majority of people in his country, how can you say he is a dictator?"

In the Reichstag elections of September 1930 the Nazi party jumped from the category of a splinter party on the lunatic fringe into that of a political force to be reckoned with. Six and a half million Germans voted Nazi and made the party the second biggest in the Reichstag.

Less than two years later this popular vote was more than doubled to give the Nazis 230 seats and make it the biggest in the Reichstag. But they never polled half the electorate in a free election. Even after Hitler won the chancellorship the Nazi vote in the election of March 1933 was only 43.9 per cent. But by then figures no longer meant much.

A bit like now....if one really thinks about it!

my 2 cents..

there is no way you can compare hitler to thaksin.

hitler murdered over 20 million people.

[Heng]

As IF we have things that organized. All conspiracy theory.

Of course you haven't, otherwise there wouldn't be that much mismanagement and consistent infighting about who's the next ruling fraction that is gonna rip the people off.

Conspiracy theory nonetheless.

It seems that the senators claimed that he was involved in the business transaction but did not say what he did that constituted involvement but they wanted the court to investigate anyway. This is sort of like a fishing expedition...."we think he did something wrong but we don't know what it was so you go spend taxpayers money to find out based solely on our expectations". This is usually considered bad form in juristic circles. If you want a court to organize a proceeding you need to have some idea of what the infraction is that you want them to investigate. Even if you have no evidence you need to at least say what it is that has been done....evidently that was not done here.

I don't know all the specifics, but from the newspapers, I gather what pm thaksin did was he took advantage of some tax loopholes. ..which is legal.

I read, he employed some keen accountants to help him do this thus ensuring he did not do anything against the law.

the resulting turmoil and demonstrations tell me that many people don't like these loopholes.

so, if people are that much against the status quo, then, the next logical step is to change the current laws to plug these loopholes that they don't like. right?

....let's see if they do this.

One important thing you forgot to mention chownah was that he first manipilated all the relevant laws that allowed him to legally cheat the Thai people and there country.

When you put this into your assessment it makes your interpretation look a little bit off the point

of the fact that he and others colluded to achieve the outcome over a long period while in office, and more important while he was prime minister of Thailand.

And that is a fact.......................................

marshbags

"manipulated"?

as I understand it, there are like 500 people involved in the decisions made here in thailand. pm thaksin is just one man. are you suggesting that he paid off all these other people?

I guess it would be possible, but then, that would be one sorry situation.

that is, if all the elected officials were that bad. that would be hard to believe.

as for saying he legally cheated the thai people and their country. remarks like that without proof can be considered slanderous.

how would you like it if someone lied to your boss telling him that you did something you didn't do, and you lost your job because of that person's lies?

one other person mentioned that he is a dictator. my response to that is - if he elected by a majority of people in his country, how can you say he is a dictator?

if you are so against pm thaksin, then, I suggest you work hard to convince other people not to vote for him in the next election. ..or, convince other people to put a limit to the number of times someone can be elected as the PM.

..by the way, just how many times can someone be elected pm here in thailand? in the states they are limited to 2 terms. just curious.

"one other person mentioned that he is a dictator. my response to that is - if he elected by a majority of people in his country, how can you say he is a dictator?"

In the Reichstag elections of September 1930 the Nazi party jumped from the category of a splinter party on the lunatic fringe into that of a political force to be reckoned with. Six and a half million Germans voted Nazi and made the party the second biggest in the Reichstag.

Less than two years later this popular vote was more than doubled to give the Nazis 230 seats and make it the biggest in the Reichstag. But they never polled half the electorate in a free election. Even after Hitler won the chancellorship the Nazi vote in the election of March 1933 was only 43.9 per cent. But by then figures no longer meant much.

A bit like now....if one really thinks about it!

my 2 cents..

there is no way you can compare hitler to thaksin.

Yeah, but it sounds really dramatic though.

[haha]

thaksin is the right man for the job right now because he is the one trying to do things.

many of the things may not be the right things, but then, he is trying.

many people don't even try. all they do is complain.

I read in the newspaper that the king and thaksin are inviting foreign folks over for visits. that's great news because that tells me they are trying to encourage foreign investments into the country.

if sondhi and guys like him really cared about the country, they should stop denouncing foreign investors and encourage them to come into the country.

at the same time, they should help thaksin promote education, and tackle other projects to improve the country.

I have yet to hear one positive thought from them. all they do is complain about thaksin. even I could do that. it doesn't take a genius to do that.

on the other hand, it takes guts and character to try to find solutions to problems.

some of you think thaksin is a dictator like hitler. my reply to that is - you wouldn't be alive if hitler heard you complaining about him back in the 30's.

why don't you go to some of those muslim countries and debate the cartoons with some of those guys, and see where you will end up. probably not too far, wouldn't you agree?

[ColPyat]

[

Conspiracy theory nonetheless.

You must be one of the people who belive that Chalerms boys always get off because they are just so nice...

...and that certain changes in the Thai telecommunication laws only incidently benefitted mainly Shin Corps, and that it never were intended so.

Your logic was unbeatable again, and you have me convinced - huge vested interests never attempt any conspiracy, and are altruistic by design.

[dan10400]

on the other hand, it takes guts and character to try to find solutions to problems.

what real solutions are you talking about? economically, it would have taken

a true dolt to do worse over the last few years with the lowest interest rate

environment the world has seen, export led growth by other regional economies,

etc. Surely hasn't been any real progress on education, the legal and judical

system, endemic corruption, unrest in southern provinces, etc.

it has been more of the case of "a rising tide floats all boats" than any spectacular

performance on taxsins part. when taxsin took office, GDP growth was 5%, and

guess what it will be this year? about 5%. not much of a legacy to be crowing

about.

[Heng]

[

Conspiracy theory nonetheless.

You must be one of the people who belive that Chalerms boys always get off because they are just so nice...

...and that certain changes in the Thai telecommunication laws only incidently benefitted mainly Shin Corps, and that it never were intended so.

No different from OJ, Bill, and Dick.

[haha]

[

Conspiracy theory nonetheless.

You must be one of the people who belive that Chalerms boys always get off because they are just so nice...

...and that certain changes in the Thai telecommunication laws only incidently benefitted mainly Shin Corps, and that it never were intended so.

Your logic was unbeatable again, and you have me convinced - huge vested interests never attempt any conspiracy, and are altruistic by design.

I don't know what the scenario is with the thai telecommunications laws, but if the people here think it is unfair, then, why don't people vote to change them? all you need to do is get people involved to analyze what is wrong, and discuss it with other people. ..then, as simple as it may seem, get your politicians to change the law.

isn't that the way it is suppose to work?

[ColPyat]

No different from OJ, Bill, and Dick.

No different indeed.

But there are some of us who do not look at the US as an exact paragon of freedom, justice and democracy.

I don't know what the scenario is with the thai telecommunications laws, but if the people here think it is unfair, then, why don't people vote to change them? all you need to do is get people involved to analyze what is wrong, and discuss it with other people. ..then, as simple as it may seem, get your politicians to change the law.

isn't that the way it is suppose to work?

There are many things that don't exactly work as they are supposed to. May i suggest to get some more information before taking any political sides.

[tettyan]

I don't know what the scenario is with the thai telecommunications laws, but if the people here think it is unfair, then, why don't people vote to change them? all you need to do is get people involved to analyze what is wrong, and discuss it with other people. ..then, as simple as it may seem, get your politicians to change the law.

isn't that the way it is suppose to work?

Sure, that's the way it's SUPPOSED to work. But with the kind of Thai politicians we have, it NEVER works that way in practice. Let me try to sum it up as easy as I can. On paper, even the USSR appeared to be democratic. You can the formality of a constitution and written laws, but if political leaders, bureaucrats, police, judges, elites and the fourth estate don't understand or repsect the SPIRIT of the laws, then a constitution and laws become as valuable as toilet paper.

I don't have time to explain the whole thing now - in the meantime, I suggest you take a look at Pasuk & Baker's book on Thaksin. The book isn't perfect by any means, but it's not a bad place to start.

[haha]

on the other hand, it takes guts and character to try to find solutions to problems.

what real solutions are you talking about? economically, it would have taken

a true dolt to do worse over the last few years with the lowest interest rate

environment the world has seen, export led growth by other regional economies,

etc. Surely hasn't been any real progress on education, the legal and judical

system, endemic corruption, unrest in southern provinces, etc.

it has been more of the case of "a rising tide floats all boats" than any spectacular

performance on taxsins part. when taxsin took office, GDP growth was 5%, and

guess what it will be this year? about 5%. not much of a legacy to be crowing

about.

I am not sure what you are saying. it seems you are suggesting there are no problems.

if that is the case, then, you should read the newspapers.

if you are suggesting that you recognize that problems exist, and that you wonder what I could possibly suggest as solutions.

well, first off, I am not sure it is my place to suggest possible solutions to people here because I am just a guest here. the last thing I would want to do is insult the host.

frankly, I think thaksin knows many of the problems and is diligently working to resolve them. he doesn' t need my help.

what is he doing, you ask?

1) encouraging foreign investments,

2) looking at alternative fuels,

3) 30 baht medical

4) loans to farmers

5) increase minimum wage

6) paid back the IMF loans,

7) underground

8) skytrain

9) new airport

10) thailand medical hub.

11) elite card/amazing thailand

12) drug clampdown

some of you may argue that he is not contributing to any of these, but he is the top man, isn't he?

if you are willing to give him credit for all the shortcomings because he is the top man, he should then get all the credit for the improvements.

some of the you would also argue that some of the items on the list are not improvements, and I might agree.

but I put them there to illustrate that thaksin is trying.

I think he is even trying to improve the education system, but correct me if I'm wrong, he is getting opposition to the changes he wants to implement by the teachers.

nothing is perfect at first shot, so, people should encourage the pm with constructive criticism on how to improve things that are showing to be weak.

all the nation newspaper does is complain about thaksin. I don't understand why they can't brainstorm with thaksin to improve things instead of always pointing out shortcomings with some of his projects that - most probably trouble him too.

he is always trying to bring up new ideas to improve the country, but all a lot of people do is cut him down when he is trying.

[ColPyat]

1) encouraging foreign investments,

2) looking at alternative fuels,

3) 30 baht medical

4) loans to farmers

5) increase minimum wage

6) paid back the IMF loans,

7) underground

8) skytrain

9) new airport

10) thailand medical hub.

11) elite card/amazing thailand

12) drug clampdown

1) and the previous Chuan government did not encourage foreign investment?

2) the movement into alternative fuel comes from the palace .

3) one time lucky. Still has lots of problems though

4) a national catastrophy. Brought up the average household debt from 20K baht to 100K baht. A recent study in 20 something provinces has shown that 54% of the people who took up the loan offers cannot pay them back.

5) every government does that.

6) he was able to do that due to the policies implemented by the previous government, and because of a changing world economy

7) the underground was started by the previous government. Thaksin's involvement delayed the opening by giving contracts previously awarded to foreign bidders to his cronies

8) skytrain was done by the previous government

9) new airport is turning into a national joke. One of Khunying Jaruvan main tasks as a national auditor is trying to sort out the serious corruption issues

10) medical hub? There are opinions that it will have negative effects on the national healthcare

11) elite card!? Are you kidding me?! That is one of the biggest jokes in Thai history, comes just after the saudi jewel affair.

12) several thousand summarily executed Thais and hill tribe people. And you can buy amphetamines again at every street corner

anything else?

[dan10400]

frankly, I think thaksin knows many of the problems and is diligently working to resolve them. he doesn' t need my help.

what is he doing, you ask?

1) encouraging foreign investments,

2) looking at alternative fuels,

3) 30 baht medical

4) loans to farmers

5) increase minimum wage

6) paid back the IMF loans,

7) underground

8) skytrain

9) new airport

10) thailand medical hub.

11) elite card/amazing thailand

12) drug clampdown

1) thailand needs FDI but what is/was the involvement of the IMF?

2) looking counts for something?

3) unfunded program that shifts burden to the hospitals.

4) aka vote buying. will work as long as their collatoral is not foreclosed on.

5) fine. raising the min wage took a lot of effort and strategic forsight.

6) and what exactly did paying back the IMF loans early buy other than

nationalistic brownie points? money came from where? maybe previous

administration?

7) subway was planned and funded under taxsin's admin? think not.

8) ditto for skytrain.

9) ditto for suvarnabhum

10) medical hub???

11) elite car??? this example of yours is just for fun right?

12) drug clampdown? probably more than a couple of thousand people that would

argue against you on this one if they were able. of course the lack of competition

helps those that were cosy enough with the authorities to avoid the clampdown.

nothing is perfect at first shot, so, people should encourage the pm with constructive criticism on how to improve things that are showing to be weak.

all the nation newspaper does is complain about thaksin. I don't understand why they can't brainstorm with thaksin to improve things instead of always pointing out shortcomings with some of his projects that - most probably trouble him too.

he is always trying to bring up new ideas to improve the country, but all a lot of people do is cut him down when he is trying.

taxsin is famous for not taking inputs or criticism - constructive or otherwise.

he has made good progress on the war on poverty - his children don't have much

to worry about. but that is how chinese families work eh?

[tettyan]

[frankly, I think thaksin knows many of the problems and is diligently working to resolve them. he doesn' t need my help.

what is he doing, you ask?

1) encouraging foreign investments,

2) looking at alternative fuels,

3) 30 baht medical

4) loans to farmers

5) increase minimum wage

6) paid back the IMF loans,

7) underground

8) skytrain

9) new airport

10) thailand medical hub.

11) elite card/amazing thailand

12) drug clampdown

Thanks for putting together the list. This is a good starting point for further discussion.

1) Encouraging foreign investment - FDI growth in Thailand has actually been rather sluggish since Thaksin came to power, in spite of all the noise he's made about it. FDI was actually fell during the first 2-3 years of his administration, only recently have FDI returned to the same levels as the last year of the Chuan gov't (2000). This is all off the top of my head - anyone who has a link to precise figures, please post it.

2) Looking at alternative fuels - I assume you're discussing the gasohol program. This is something that Bangchak (the petrol company with ties to the crown property bureau) seems to have been working on since before. I know the PM gave some good publicity to the gasohol program with his visit to Brazil. It's fine to encourage wider availability of gasohol, but I think the government's push to force us all to use it is a mistake. I think consumers should be given a choice, esp since some claim that gasohol is not good for some types of engines.

3) 30 baht medical care - Sounds nice in principle, but disastorous in practice. Coming up with a good idea is easy enough, but it's much harder to put your money where your mouth is. Sure, many people are better off as result of the program, but talk to any doctor and you'll see that it comes at a price. The program is under-funded, many state hospitals are near bankruptcy and doctors are fleeing to the private sector. Unless something is done, the quality of the public healthcare system will deteriorate severely - and then who will be better off?

4) Loans to farmers - Enough has already been written on this. No one is against giving the poor or farmers access to credit. But due diligence must be practiced in granting loans, or else you'll just end up with a pile of NPLs and 1997 will repeat itself all over again. Borrowers must understand the conditions of the loan and need a viable business plan - but I'm not convinced that this is happening. Please refer to other threads on this, I don't want to sound too repetitive.

5) Increasing the minimum wage - I'll give this one to Thaksin.

6) Paid back IMF loans - This is discussed on another forum " Thaksin Boasts Tremendous Successes During Five-year Rule "

7&8) The subway that opened in 2004 was started in '99 under the previous gov't. Under this gov't, not a single track of mass transit projects has been laid, despite having 5 years to get started. Instead, they use every dirty trick in the book to block the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration and BTS to extend their existing lines! Were it not for Thaksin's intransigence, the Skytrain would already be serving Thonburi and Samrong by now. Meanwhile, plans for extending the subways are constantly caught up in TRT factional infighting, and the plans are still changing after 5 years! Through their actions, this government has shown that it has no sympathy for Bangkok commuters who have to suffer through killer traffic jams.

I've gotta run now to do better things. I'll discuss the other accomplishment later. In the meantime, you should reread about the "Ample it's Truly Not" thread to better understand the drug clampdown.

Edited February 19, 2006 by tettyan

[haha]

1) encouraging foreign investments,

2) looking at alternative fuels,

3) 30 baht medical

4) loans to farmers

5) increase minimum wage

6) paid back the IMF loans,

7) underground

8) skytrain

9) new airport

10) thailand medical hub.

11) elite card/amazing thailand

12) drug clampdown

1) and the previous Chuan government did not encourage foreign investment?

2) the movement into alternative fuel comes from the palace .

3) one time lucky. Still has lots of problems though

4) a national catastrophy. Brought up the average household debt from 20K baht to 100K baht. A recent study in 20 something provinces has shown that 54% of the people who took up the loan offers cannot pay them back.

5) every government does that.

6) he was able to do that due to the policies implemented by the previous government, and because of a changing world economy

7) the underground was started by the previous government. Thaksin's involvement delayed the opening by giving contracts previously awarded to foreign bidders to his cronies

8) skytrain was done by the previous government

9) new airport is turning into a national joke. One of Khunying Jaruvan main tasks as a national auditor is trying to sort out the serious corruption issues

10) medical hub? There are opinions that it will have negative effects on the national healthcare

11) elite card!? Are you kidding me?! That is one of the biggest jokes in Thai history, comes just after the saudi jewel affair.

12) several thousand summarily executed Thais and hill tribe people. And you can buy amphetamines again at every street corner

anything else?

my main response is - if the previous government was so great, why did they get voted out of office?

as for "everything" being done by the "previous" administration, the projects could have been canceled by the new, and since they DID get completed by the thaksin administration, he should get credit for it.

if I were to start work on building a boat, and then, stopped. ...then, another person comes in to complete construction. should I get credit for the boat or the guy who completed it?

let's look at it another way....

I enter a foot race, and after a few steps, I fall down and can't continue. my buddy, thaksin, comes in and offers to complete the race for me. he runs and is fortunate to complete the race with no injuries to himself. who should get credit for completing the race?

the guy who didn't even work up a sweat, or the guy who did?

[haha]

like I was trying to point out. most of you guys only seem to want to point out the shortcomings of thaksin.

if your criticism was a little more constructive maybe the problems wouldn't be so prevalent.

being a "backseat driver" doesn't help resolve problems. it only makes the people who are trying to fix problems stressed out.

give the guy a break, and work as a team.

if you have a better way to resolve the drug problem, or for that matter any other problems, speak up. I'm sure if your idea does the job, people will be happy for your advice.

[ColPyat]

my main response is - if the previous government was so great, why did they get voted out of office?

Because the previous government failed to properly compete in the villages of the north and isaarn. There still is only one party visible in those villages - TRT.

That though does not mean that the TRT gvernment is doing a better job, it just has the better spin doctors and a far more advanced advertisement. His programs are populist in nature, the results are grave.

Please read through the already mentioned threads - there it is far more detailed what his failings were. Or click on my handle and read through the posts is did, then you get my more detailed opinion on things here, as i don't really enjoy posting the same thing over again within a space of a few days.

[haha]

my main response is - if the previous government was so great, why did they get voted out of office?

Because the previous government failed to properly compete in the villages of the north and isaarn. There still is only one party visible in those villages - TRT.

That though does not mean that the TRT gvernment is doing a better job, it just has the better spin doctors and a far more advanced advertisement. His programs are populist in nature, the results are grave.

Please read through the already mentioned threads - there it is far more detailed what his failings were. Or click on my handle and read through the posts is did, then you get my more detailed opinion on things here, as i don't really enjoy posting the same thing over again within a space of a few days.

I don't know what caused the previous government to not get reelected, but if your prognosis is correct. ..and they are still NOT visible in the villiages like the TRT are.

why would you even consider them as an option to replace thaksin?

if they don't give a s##t enough about the villagers/people out there to spend the time to talk to them, why?

so, do you think they are going to do a better job than thaksin?

thaksin is the best man for the job no matter what his faults.

as for serious consequences, do you really think the country would be better off with the other guys?

most of the problems as I see it was not the fault of thaksin. he has no control over oil prices, guys like soros, or the situation with the poor which has been a problem for ages.

the fastest way out is not a change in government, it is with foreign investment.

it is working with china and india, and it can work here in thailand.

in less than 20 years (I was in china in 1985), china has progressed from a country that looked like cambodia now to their present state which is in many ways like the usa. incredible. ..mostly because of foreign investment.

look at the differences between north and south korea. it is like night and day.

[MrSnrang]

In response to haha:

All you have to do is look at TRT's campaigns. They're ######ing funny. You'd think that Thailand elected him just to make the world seem the slightest bit funnier.

The last thing that we need is full-out unrestricted foreign investment. The country is far too... dumb to take the responsibility of working under foreigners.

Edited February 19, 2006 by MrSnrang

[haha]

In response to haha:

All you have to do is look at TRT's campaigns. They're ######ing funny. You'd think that Thailand elected him just to make the world seem the slightest bit funnier.

do you think chuwit would have done a better job?

[MrSnrang]

In response to haha:

All you have to do is look at TRT's campaigns. They're ######ing funny. You'd think that Thailand elected him just to make the world seem the slightest bit funnier.

do you think chuwit would have done a better job?

Did I say I thought he would?

Thaksin is just drunk with power though.

[gurkle]

I'd rather have someone who was elected by a large majority versus appointed by the very small minority.

If Thaksin is ousted because of a mob that refuses to even follow the legal system, the concept of democracy in Thailand will be in a serious crisis.

We will go back to having violent coup de etats every few years where innocent people will die. Thailand's future is in serious jeopardy. I hope there are enough intelligent people out there that understand newspapers make money on entertainment value, not intelligent thoughts.

If you don't like him, elect someone else next time. That's what you do in a democracy. Thaksin really hasn't done anything that bad.

Be careful what you wish for. Things can get much worse if a minority gets to appoint the next prime minister. Take a look at China where they trace negative political posts on the Internet and put people in jail for 10 years.

Edited February 19, 2006 by gurkle

[tettyan]

I'd rather have someone who was elected by a large majority versus appointed by the very small minority.

If Thaksin is ousted because of a mob that refuses to even follow the legal system, the concept of democracy in Thailand will be in a serious crisis.

We will go back to having violent coup de etats every few years where innocent people will die. Thailand's future is in serious jeopardy. I hope there are enough intelligent people out there that understand newspapers make money on entertainment value, not intelligent thoughts.

If you don't like him, elect someone else next time. That's what you do in a democracy. Thaksin really hasn't done anything that bad.

It'll be scary to see who the mob would appoint as a new prime minister.

Just because you're elected doesn't deligitimize the opposition. In a functioning democracy, there must be political space for people to express their views. I don't care much for Sondhi or his brand of left-wing ultra-nationalism, but he and his supporters should be free to democratically express his opinions - and believing that the PM should resign is an opinion we are all free to have.

But let's not try changing the subject too much. After all, Sondhi and the opposition are not in power - Thaksin is. He might have won his mandate last year, but that was not a mandate to be unaccountable until 2009.

The mob is not going to appoint a new PM! And no one is talking about a coup! If the PM resigned (as I think he should, if he had any dignity left), either the TRT party will choose a new leader or fresh elections will be called. This is what we call a parliamentary democracy. In any case, I'd respect the outcome.

Thaksin really hasn't done anything that bad

You've gotta be kidding me! Muzzling the press, abusing PUBLIC power for his PRIVATE interests, blending the distinction between party and state, using OUR tax money as his campaign war chest, using state television as a free propoganda tool, blocking the expansion of Bangkok's mass-transit system while we all choke in traffic...

Sure, his government might have done a few good things too, but your all-encomassing, blanket statement is very hard to defend..

[MrSnrang]

What was the last straw was when Thaksin violated the constitution by muffling Sondhi and suing him for ###### knows billions of baht. Right there he should have been impeached. Abuse of power.

[gurkle]

The mob is not going to appoint a new PM! And no one is talking about a coup! If the PM resigned (as I think he should, if he had any dignity left), either the TRT party will choose a new leader or fresh elections will be called. This is what we call a parliamentary democracy. In any case, I'd respect the outcome.

See the latest Bangkok Post. A coup is very possible (although it might be a peaceful one).

Here is an excerpt:

The source said Maj-Gen Chamlong is also expected to lead his followers at the Santi Asoke religious centre to join the anti-Thaksin rally planned for Feb 26 at Sanam Luang.

Maj-Gen Chamlong led a mass demonstration at Ratchadamnoen Avenue in a popular uprising against the Suchinda Kraprayoon government.

The event led to a bloody military crackdown on the protesters and the eventual fall of the regime in May 1992.

Edited February 19, 2006 by gurkle