Are We Really Wanted Here?

sirchai · March 10, 2012

Sawasdee khrap,

I was just wondering why such a forum never had a topic how Thais are treating foreigners in LOS. Unfortunately about foreigners, who’re living in this country, working at schools, paying taxes and supporting not just their family?

Let’s face it. Thais staying in any European country for about three years will automatically have a passport and all rights of this country.

I moved to Thailand with enough cash for a few years, then started teaching and still have to do the same procedure regarding visa and of course the work permit, to be legal.

Like the superficial 90 days registration for ALIANS etc…….

We do pay in the social security; receive a nonexistent 14 digit number and when we ask for any benefits like 400 baht for our kids, Thais are telling us that we’re not Thais.

It’s not enough proof to be able to teach in this country for seven years, no, we all have to come up with a degree in education sooner or later. Might be a Masters in education soon?

All the awards our students had won through us, some Master degrees for Thai English teachers, where we’d wrote the thesis for don’t really mean a lot to them, or?

I’ve read so many topics about people using fake degrees.

But what about the Filipinos teaching English in this country?

I’m not accusing some Filipinos of using fake degrees, but I know that some of them just don’t have a real one.

Manila is like the Kao Shan Road in Thailand. Almost all documents are available there. Not saying that they would use fake degrees to become teachers in Thailand.

And most of them do have a TL now, some of them not even having a decent command in the language they supposed to teach.

I know of the opportunity to obtain a Thai passport, but shouldn’t there be an easier way to live here without that hassle?

Not all of us got the time and the amount of money to go through the procedure though.

The ASEAN community in 2015 will change it again and members of the other nine countries won’t need a visa any more.

How will this affect all the other foreigners who are married, working here and trying to stay with their families?

BoonToong · March 10, 2012

Do you teach English here (in Thailand) Sirchai?

NewlyMintedThai · March 10, 2012

You can whine or you can apply for Thai citizenship like I did.

BlackArtemis · March 10, 2012

Answering just the topic's question, some of us are, not all of us.

I don't know about you, but my Thai coworkers never gave me trouble and would go out of the way to help me. I simply gave them a lot of respect and was polite, like I should be doing to any coworker, and my life was easy. Most of my Filipino coworkers held actual education degrees and were often the better teachers.

People often ask me why teach in Thailand and not the US, and one of the major points I bring up is the respect. I have done lots of private tutoring and had parents who were high ranking police officers, army generals, doctors etc, all of them have been wonderfully polite, I found it odd that they would wai me. In the states i would be just another biology teacher who unfairly got too much time off. I just finished teaching 4 classes of 9th grade bio at a middle class/blue collar school here in the US. I would rather be in a government school in Chiang Mai any day...

(I played with time a bit in the above post, I taught in CM from 2006-2008, returned to the US to earn a BSED Biology/Earth science and am now waiting for my non imm B to return)

Loaded · March 10, 2012

There are negatives living here. However, from my perspective they are far more negatives living back in the UK. On balance, I am happy with my lot here.

I am a foreigner and the Thais make this very clear. There's no ambiguity. I can accept their rules or move on. I don't find it a problem.

Scott · March 10, 2012

With regard to Filipinos, if you hire licensed teachers, there is a website where you can confirm that they have passed the Licensure exam in the Philippines.

For teachers coming from the US, there is a clearinghouse that confirms degrees.

BlackArtemis · March 10, 2012

Also, I would like to say that it was a lot easier for me to get a work permit etc in Thailand than it was for the Thai's I know in the US.

Scott · March 10, 2012

I confess to being a little bi-polar when it comes to Thailand. I have periods of time when I think it's the most wonderful place on earth and everything is just great. These are followed by shorter periods of extreme negativity and frustration--right now I am in the latter category. I think the latter is usually caused by work related stress and passes when the work stress slows down, but I find the periods of negativity are getting a little longer and the periods of positive are shorter. Maybe it's age?

garro · March 10, 2012

I gave up teaching about 3 years ago - prior to that I had 8 years experience of working in Thai schools. I rarely miss it. I put a great deal of effort into becoming properly qualified. I even wasted a good deal of time and money on a Post Graduate Certificate of Education. I don’t regret the knowledge gained, but I could have put that money to better uses.

I mostly worked in schools where I was the only native English speaker. The Thai teachers treated me well, but I never really felt like one of them. I hated the staff room politics, and the fact that incompetence was so frequently rewarded. Most of the school heads didn’t seem to care about effectiveness of a teacher -they just wanted a white face to show the parents. In the end it was the students who made me feel wanted, and they are the most important people.

My only dealings these days with Thai schools is as a concerned parent. When I see the westerners who teach my son I’ve mixed feelings. I do believe that most of them do a good job and are undervalued, but I also know that there may be some who are really not suited for the job. Thankfully the teachers at his current school seem to be fairly dedicated.

gamini · March 10, 2012

A Thai has just as many problems or even more trying to get permission to stay in the UK or Australia. Many would find it impossible. . I am not allowed to emmigrate to Australia. You have to be under 59. Thailand is still one of the easiest places in the world to get permission to stay and cheap too. Too many foreigners seem to think they have a right to stay here and complain about the rules and regulations. Worse still most of them don't pay any tax and contribute nothing to the country.

pipo1000 · March 10, 2012

I confess to being a little bi-polar when it comes to Thailand. I have periods of time when I think it's the most wonderful place on earth and everything is just great. These are followed by shorter periods of extreme negativity and frustration--right now I am in the latter category. I think the latter is usually caused by work related stress and passes when the work stress slows down, but I find the periods of negativity are getting a little longer and the periods of positive are shorter. Maybe it's age?

Don't worry to much about that bi-polarity thing. Stay a bit longer and your problem will solve itself as you will only deal with that latter category.

pipo1000 · March 10, 2012

A Thai has just as many problems or even more trying to get permission to stay in the UK or Australia. Many would find it impossible. . I am not allowed to emmigrate to Australia. You have to be under 59. Thailand is still one of the easiest places in the world to get permission to stay and cheap too. Too many foreigners seem to think they have a right to stay here and complain about the rules and regulations. Worse still most of them don't pay any tax and contribute nothing to the country.

Really,so you consider adding a lot of money to the economy as nothing?

How many families in Thailand you think would be of much worse if Pattaya,Phuket and certain parts of Bangkok didn't exist in their current appearance?

BlackArtemis · March 10, 2012

I confess to being a little bi-polar when it comes to Thailand. I have periods of time when I think it's the most wonderful place on earth and everything is just great. These are followed by shorter periods of extreme negativity and frustration--right now I am in the latter category. I think the latter is usually caused by work related stress and passes when the work stress slows down, but I find the periods of negativity are getting a little longer and the periods of positive are shorter. Maybe it's age?

Same, but the negative attitude usually wells up during the time that I am driving!

MAJIC · March 10, 2012

A Thai has just as many problems or even more trying to get permission to stay in the UK or Australia. Many would find it impossible. . I am not allowed to emmigrate to Australia. You have to be under 59. Thailand is still one of the easiest places in the world to get permission to stay and cheap too. Too many foreigners seem to think they have a right to stay here and complain about the rules and regulations. Worse still most of them don't pay any tax and contribute nothing to the country.

I have to disagree with you on permission to stay in the UK for Thais,

many members on TV will know,that once a spouse has a Settlement Visa,they do not have to answer to anyone,there is no reporting in to the Home Office,Immigation,Police,or any other organisition,for the whole of their 2 years and 3 months visa.After which they can apply for ILR,present the documents by Post,and obtain Indefinate Leave to Remain,having seen no one,or not even having spoke to any official by phone,or postal contact! of any form.They can also buy anything in their own name.

Hardly Thailands immigration rules,is it?

Edited March 10, 2012 by MAJIC

richard_smith237 · March 10, 2012

I confess to being a little bi-polar when it comes to Thailand. I have periods of time when I think it's the most wonderful place on earth and everything is just great. These are followed by shorter periods of extreme negativity and frustration--right now I am in the latter category. I think the latter is usually caused by work related stress and passes when the work stress slows down, but I find the periods of negativity are getting a little longer and the periods of positive are shorter. Maybe it's age?

Me too - I think that feeling is quite normal anywhere.

Most of the Thai's I know also express the same sentiment. They too love parts of their country, but also become exasperated with other parts / issues.

As foreigners we go through many of the same frustrations as the Thai's. Thai's also have to deal with unfair rules, attitudes and administration. Not necessarily with the same issues, however the issues we as westerners face are present not because we are not wanted, but simply because of the bureaucratic nature of the system, which if we are to be fair is in many cases dated.

NewlyMintedThai · March 10, 2012

I confess to being a little bi-polar when it comes to Thailand. I have periods of time when I think it's the most wonderful place on earth and everything is just great. These are followed by shorter periods of extreme negativity and frustration--right now I am in the latter category. I think the latter is usually caused by work related stress and passes when the work stress slows down, but I find the periods of negativity are getting a little longer and the periods of positive are shorter. Maybe it's age?

Me too - I think that feeling is quite normal anywhere.

Most of the Thai's I know also express the same sentiment. They too love parts of their country, but also become exasperated with other parts / issues.

As foreigners we go through many of the same frustrations as the Thai's. Thai's also have to deal with unfair rules, attitudes and administration. Not necessarily with the same issues, however the issues we as westerners face are present not because we are not wanted, but simply because of the bureaucratic nature of the system, which if we are to be fair is in many cases dated.

If you're never frustrated with your home country as well, you're a big liar. Most people who are "frustrated" here are frustrated everywhere they happen to be. They simply have a low tolerance for things not being exactly the way they want them to be.

richard_smith237 · March 10, 2012

I confess to being a little bi-polar when it comes to Thailand. I have periods of time when I think it's the most wonderful place on earth and everything is just great. These are followed by shorter periods of extreme negativity and frustration--right now I am in the latter category. I think the latter is usually caused by work related stress and passes when the work stress slows down, but I find the periods of negativity are getting a little longer and the periods of positive are shorter. Maybe it's age?

Me too - I think that feeling is quite normal anywhere.

Most of the Thai's I know also express the same sentiment. They too love parts of their country, but also become exasperated with other parts / issues.

As foreigners we go through many of the same frustrations as the Thai's. Thai's also have to deal with unfair rules, attitudes and administration. Not necessarily with the same issues, however the issues we as westerners face are present not because we are not wanted, but simply because of the bureaucratic nature of the system, which if we are to be fair is in many cases dated.

If you're never frustrated with your home country as well, you're a big liar. Most people who are "frustrated" here are frustrated everywhere they happen to be. They simply have a low tolerance for things not being exactly the way they want them to be.

Agreed - we shouldn't take issues too personally here or anywhere else. That’s not to say we should never get wound up. I'm sure we all do from time to time. We can have a good bitch, a good moan and a good whine with the best of them at times. I'm sure that stands for most people whether in Thailand, the UK, or anywhere else for that matter. But, for most its easy to let things go.

I can admire those who can make an issue and stand on principle quite readily if necessary, and then drop it a moment later once resolved. In this regard the Thai's I know are better at dropping an issue, while the Westerners I know are better at standing on principle.

Ijustwannateach · March 10, 2012

There are plenty of complaints around this subforum regarding how foreigner teachers get treated! Start a-readin'!!!

TongueThaied · March 10, 2012

One of the best teachers I have seen anywhere was a Filipino guy who was teaching at our local high school. He held a masters degree in chemical engineering, but chose to teach English because he found it emotionally fulfilling. Not my cup of tea. Unfortunately, even though he was the ONLY teacher at the school that could effectively teach English, and everybody seemed to love him, they simply refused to pay him a decent salary. After 2 years of 15K/month, he moved on to teach in Pelau. What a loss! It is impossible for me to even carry on a conversation with Thai English teachers getting paid twice as much! Most English teaching by Thais in this country is a sorry charade; a case of the blind leading the blind. Many of these Thai teachers are taking down 40K/month. The Filipino guy spoke perfect English.

As for other bad treatment as foreingers, I can say I have seen many cases of a farang throwing a big fit yelling and screaming in public. Since it is easy to remember one shocking incident and apply it to the whole group (stereotyping), I am surprised Thais are as riendly to farangs as they are. That said, I have rarely been shown any disrespect and have mostly been made to feel quite welcome. I don't know what they say behind my back, but my wife says she has never heard anything negative (of course, she probably wouldn't tell me!)

All the immigration stuff and work permits for those that work her is a pain, but, wow, how many of us wish our own countrties had protected the labor force and quality of citizenship. I am American and I look at what happened there. The greedy capitalists in power exported every job they could to China, etc., and threw open the country's doors to admit cheap labor from the south to fill the jobs they couldn't export. They absolutely trashed the US wage structure and job security. So, when I look at how Thailand does it, sure it annoys me, but I am just a little bit jealous too. I can't help but rhetorically ask, "Why didn't my country protect its citizens in the same way."

Makes me think of a joke. Davey Crockett, William Travis and Jim Bowie, all at the Alamo back on the fateful Texas day, had gotten up around sunrise. With steaming cups of coffee in hand, they climbed up onto the parapet and were amazed to see a million Mexicans marching toward them across the plain. Davey Crocket turned toward William Travis with a puzzled look and asked, "Bill, are we pourin' concrete today?"

Naam · March 10, 2012

Let’s face it. Thais staying in any European country for about three years will automatically have a passport and all rights of this country.

a Thai passport yes, a European passport/citizenship only in your wet dreams.

mike123ca · March 11, 2012

When I worked in the korean public school system, my school provided a teacher who would assist me when anything that government and other things.

If I needed to set up a bank account, the teacher would come with me and help to get the task resolved.

Here in Thailand your on own. I feel sorry for the teacher's who don't have anybody to help them.

Loz · March 11, 2012

Kids make it rewarding, Thai staff drain that reward away without even trying.

I've done my bit now. Someone else's turn.

BlackArtemis · March 11, 2012

When I worked in the korean public school system, my school provided a teacher who would assist me when anything that government and other things.

If I needed to set up a bank account, the teacher would come with me and help to get the task resolved.

Here in Thailand your on own. I feel sorry for the teacher's who don't have anybody to help them.

My first school, a government school, had teachers who helped. I was brought down with 3 other new teachers to the bank and had my account set up etc etc.

NewlyMintedThai · March 11, 2012

When I worked in the korean public school system, my school provided a teacher who would assist me when anything that government and other things.
If I needed to set up a bank account, the teacher would come with me and help to get the task resolved.

Here in Thailand your on own. I feel sorry for the teacher's who don't have anybody to help them.

Is life really that difficult to navigate for you?

ccarbaugh · March 11, 2012

"Are We Really Wanted Here?" - not particularly..... but our money is always welcome!

Edited March 11, 2012 by ccarbaugh

mike123ca · March 11, 2012

When I worked in the korean public school system, my school provided a teacher who would assist me when anything that government and other things.
If I needed to set up a bank account, the teacher would come with me and help to get the task resolved.

Here in Thailand your on own. I feel sorry for the teacher's who don't have anybody to help them.

Is life really that difficult to navigate for you?

A new teacher gets off the airplane and takes on a teaching job. Do you really expect him to get everything he needs right away especially if he doesn't speak Thai?

As a added bonus, since he is a foreigner and doesn't have the same documentation as a Thai there will be extra paper work.

The way he did things in his home country will be different than they are done here, do you really expect him to have " local knowledge" which is only acquired over time.

When I went to work in Bermuda, I was assigned a person to provide information. I think of it as more of a courtesy to make life easier.

Scott · March 11, 2012

An off-topic, inflammatory post has been removed.

This forum is for teachers and about teaching in Thailand.

In a lot of countries some assistance in needed if you are foreigner trying to get basic tasks accomplished. If you are working or expected to work, then it may require paperwork from your employer.

Ijustwannateach · March 12, 2012

Different countries offer different levels of support. In Japan, things were completely transparent and by-the-book contractually and legally. Here, your boss can basically lie to you and get away with it because there is a pretty good chance that no one will get in trouble if you are working without the proper visa, work permit, and other documentation- and if someone does get in trouble, it's likely to be you, not a Thai citizen (for example, your employer). That makes knowing what paperwork you need and how to get it TRANSPARENTLY even more important. Of course, reading our thread on the TCT will acquaint any reasonable person with how opaque and byzantine the whole situation is here. I do, finally, have all the right paperwork- even jumped through the TCT 'culture course' hoop and got their license- but it took YEARS before that was finished (I only got the actual card something like 2 years after the application process began; of course, the 5 year license was backdated to 2 years before)!

Given those problems, if you are not *already* very familiar with the process, it really is advisable and necessary here to have someone knowledgeable to help you navigate 'the system'. This is one of the reasons foreign teachers are paid more: we are not on the 'gravy trains' that provide people who are in 'the system' with the *real* levels of income required to be above poverty level as a teacher.

Kilgore Trout · March 13, 2012

Also, I would like to say that it was a lot easier for me to get a work permit etc in Thailand than it was for the Thai's I know in the US.

That is because for as easy as it is for you to get in to Thailand and receive a work permit; it is just as easy for them to get you out. In addition; foreigners can in no way claim unemployment benefits, disability, welfare for children born there etc. etc.

Quite the opposite in the states; if you get a green card in the US it is very hard to get rid of you and you do have a right to unemployment benefits, welfare, subsidized healthcare etc.

Pretty clear to see why Thailand freely gives out visas while the US does not.

I know of one (one of many) Thais in the US who works under the table while claiming welfare thus ripping off American taxpayers.

Can you imagine the Thai ire if foreigners were doing that here?

sirchai · March 13, 2012

"That is because for as easy as it is for you to get in to Thailand and receive a work permit; it is just as easy for them to get you out. In addition; foreigners can in no way claim unemployment benefits, disability, welfare for children born there etc. etc

It's obviously not true that foreigners aren't eligible to receive unemployment benefits, disability and welfare for kids born here.

I was asking the social security ( Prakan Sakhon) in our province a few years ago what would happen to my cash I had already paid in. The answer was that I could a) claim a monthly income of some baht. I could have all back what I'd paid in when I'm 55 years old.

When I started to work for an agency, without a proper accident insurance, I could even continue my insurance with full hospital coverage by just paying 230 baht a month.

Might be good to know how many of us foreigners ever tried to get those benefits. I know of a Filipino who had claimed unemployment benefits, plus 800 baht ( 400 for one child)

. And his kids weren't even in Thailand at this time. They'd paid him around 10,000 baht/month for one year, when he'd lost his job.

Edited March 13, 2012 by sirchai

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