Condos Exceeding The Maximum Allowable 49% Foreign Freehold Allocation.

[JurasssicPerson]

The condominium act clearly sets out the action to be taken in the event that the 49% limit is exceeded - do any hapless Falange find themselves in this position as a result of corrupt and greedy condo managers, juristic persons and lazy incompetent land office staff? Our cheerful condo can boast almost 70% foreign ownership - all with chanote to boot!

[Delight]

Yes

The condo where I live had about 51/49-the wrong way round. Unusually a Farang sold to aThai -now we are legal. I presume it now will always be legal.

Where there is money there is away.

Developers get more for Foreign owned condos

[PattayaPhom]

When you say 70% Foreign ownership, do you mean actually held in foreign name??? Dont forget, many foreigners buy under a Thai company, their partners name or Thai childs name. So just because you see 70% foreigners around it dosnt mean the quoto is incorrect.

[PattayaParent]

Also depends on whether the condo was one of those that was granted 100% foreign ownership quota status during the crash of 1997.

[JurasssicPerson]

Actually held in foreign name - not Thai or company etc. When the condo is bought by a foreigner the Juristic Person signs off two document. One is a no debt certificate confirming that the seller is free to sell, the other is a statement confirming that the foreign allocation is below 49% so the foreigner is entitled to buy that condo. The land office is supposed to confirm this but apparently just accept the JP statement.

[briley]

What is the position when a Thai buys a condo but signs a paper giving a foreigner full and absolute rights on a unit - how legal is that and who votes in the General Meetings, the owner or the foreigner?

[Delight]

What is the position when a Thai buys a condo but signs a paper giving a foreigner full and absolute rights on a unit - how legal is that and who votes in the General Meetings, the owner or the foreigner?

What rights are you referring to?The name which is on the Chanote has the right to vote or if required appoint a proxy.

[briley]

Delight,

In some buildings a Thai buys the unit then the foreigner and the Thai sign a 'userfract' (whatever that is) that gives the foreigner full control over the unit and register the 'userfract' at the Land Office. There is often a feeling that the money has come from the foreigner.

I would agree that only the name on the Chanote can vote or their proxy. I am not very fond of technical methods used to overcome Thai law, it makes me feel very uncomfortable.

[Delight]

Delight,

In some buildings a Thai buys the unit then the foreigner and the Thai sign a 'userfract' (whatever that is) that gives the foreigner full control over the unit and register the 'userfract' at the Land Office. There is often a feeling that the money has come from the foreigner.

I would agree that only the name on the Chanote can vote or their proxy. I am not very fond of technical methods used to overcome Thai law, it makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Briley

Good point.

However as I understand it -and like you I am no expert- the holder of the userfract is not the co -owner. The userfractuary has simply done a legal/commercial deal(with a specified timescale) with the co --owner which bestows rights and responsibilities to the userfractuary in relation to the use and the care of the condo. This deal gives legal protection for both parties.

If I am right -and I welcome any challenge -then it has no impact on condo ownership percentages.

I suspect that the userfractuary can only carry a proxy for the official co-owner.

p.s as I am writing this I'm thinking what a good idea-i.e. do a userfract deal with a Thai co -owner such that I have use of of a condo for the rest of my life and can improve it for my (and the co-owner's benefit) -only pay say half price. It would only appeal to people who are not interested in bequeathing a condo. Cheap deal -no Will required.

Good move all round(apologize to Jurassic Person for going off-topic)

Edited March 17, 2012 by Delight

[JurasssicPerson]

All replies are interesting whether off topic or not. As regards outright purchase of a condo in Foriegn Name I'd advocate very careful duedilligence. Taking the word of a real-estate agent, a condo manager, a Juristic Person - and a Falange selling the condo may be worthless. You may end up holding. A Chanote which is worthless whilst you await a Lamd Office instruction to change your condo to Thai name. Of course your condo will be significantly devalued since no foreigner can buy from you and, in most but not all cases, Thais do not buy condos too much.

[Delight]

All replies are interesting whether off topic or not. As regards outright purchase of a condo in Foriegn Name I'd advocate very careful duedilligence. Taking the word of a real-estate agent, a condo manager, a Juristic Person - and a Falange selling the condo may be worthless. You may end up holding. A Chanote which is worthless whilst you await a Lamd Office instruction to change your condo to Thai name. Of course your condo will be significantly devalued since no foreigner can buy from you and, in most but not all cases, Thais do not buy condos too much.

I do not understand.

When u say 'outright purchase of a condo in foreign Name' -do you in fact mean buying via Thai company?

[Tanlic]

All replies are interesting whether off topic or not. As regards outright purchase of a condo in Foriegn Name I'd advocate very careful duedilligence. Taking the word of a real-estate agent, a condo manager, a Juristic Person - and a Falange selling the condo may be worthless. You may end up holding. A Chanote which is worthless whilst you await a Lamd Office instruction to change your condo to Thai name. Of course your condo will be significantly devalued since no foreigner can buy from you and, in most but not all cases, Thais do not buy condos too much.

What nonsense you are talking mate

When you buy a condo in Thailand you must have a letter from the Juristic person stating the building ratio of foreigners to Thai. Almost all are issued from the head office of the management company. They lie and they are in deep dodo as these figures are double checked by the land department before title is put in your name.

Absolutely no sense in anyone lying to you about the ratio and it is near impossible to have a worthless Title deed if you follow the very simple procedure.

If you are buying from a Farang with Title in his name there is no way it won't go through because it would have been impossible for him to buy it in the first place.

Go talk about something you know something about and stop scaring people unnesssarily..

Edited March 18, 2012 by Tanlic

[Tanlic]

What can happen and does is foreign companies from say singapore may buy a batch of condos off plan which gives false ratio as title has not been issued. That gets sorted out when the foreign company re-sells them individually or puts them into a thai company name temporaril;y but no one is out to cheat or rob anyone and at the end of the day your title is 100% legal......BTW Thais buy thousands and thousands of condo's they do build the odd one outside Sukhumvit you know :0)

Edited March 18, 2012 by Tanlic

[JurasssicPerson]

Titanic - you are very naive or possibly just ignorant. Our condo is way over limit - that has been confirmed independently and at the land office. Hence the clause in the condo act to deal with this situation. Sorry is scared you !!

[PattayaParent]

Titanic - you are very naive or possibly just ignorant. Our condo is way over limit - that has been confirmed independently and at the land office. Hence the clause in the condo act to deal with this situation. Sorry is scared you !!

So what did the officers at the land office say about the situation?

[Delight]

Titanic - you are very naive or possibly just ignorant. Our condo is way over limit - that has been confirmed independently and at the land office. Hence the clause in the condo act to deal with this situation. Sorry is scared you !!

I am aware that the Act specifies the Thai /Foreign ratios

What ' clause in the condo act to deal with this situation' are you referring to?

[JurasssicPerson]

Condominium Act BE 2522 (1979) As amended up to Condominium Act (No. 4) 2551 (2008) - Section 19.

This section contains several clauses and disposition for aliens out with the ratio is plainly written.

Of course Thais buy condos - but not in our building in Wong Amat. Selling will not be a simple option for those who bought in over the max limit. Land office staff check? ... No they do not. Of course they should - again, see Section 19.

[Delight]

Your post simply refers to the rules ,which in the condo where you live, have been ignored .Your earlier post implied that the Act detailed a solution to the problem.

The responsibility for this must lie at the feet of both the developer and the land registry office.- and after the books were cooked –the JPM

Its highly unlikely that the land office will shoot itself in the foot.

Given that why not just let sleeping dogs lie?

The likely hood is that any proactive action from you will be counter-productive.

Pattayaparent asked the question

‘So what did the officers at the land office say about the situation?’

My advice is do not ask!

[JurasssicPerson]

The post refers to the law. Nothing to do with the developer - our building is over 9 years old and we passed 49% about 3 years ago. Legal responsibility is with the land office and JP. Refer to my original post - greedy manager, JP and incompetent land office staff. Let sleeping dogs lie. Consider that the cowers may be somewhat pissed. If you were one of them, whould you on sell to a foreigner? And how about when you do have a JP who does the math and refuses to sign? Burying your head in the sand does not provide a lasting solution. The original question was - doe any (or many) others find themselves in this position. Probably not because they assume all is well and have never calculated correct figures. Appreciate the advice - bet those who put us in this position do too. The act clearly defines what will be done in such circumstances. Can you read?

[briley]

Anyone know for certain what the penalty for 'illegally' owning a condo?

I recall that a foreigner is deported but a complicit Thai (eg wrongly using a Thai nominee) can face up to 10 years in prison.