2012 Formula One Season

[b19bry]

David aka Wacky, where are you ?

Your insight and comments are missed !

[jsat]

fyi: sky F1 is live and free to view (no proxy required) on the xbmc app - named ESPN U in the Live TV video plug in (windows/ios/android/Mac/Linux) .. better than all the adverts on starsport/espn hd .. I for one have had an absolute guts full of of all the advertising on the TV we pay for .. I just want all the F1 untouched! ..

[b19bry]

Great drive from Alonso, although the Ferrari is greatly improved of late it was probaby not the fastest or even second fastest car over the weekend yet Fernando just did enough to stay ahead the whole race.

Great too to see Button back on form at last and also good to see Vettel penalised for what was clearly an illegal pass at the end. Vettel was probably still seething at the other Mclaren mixing it with the lead battle while a lap down !

[rixalex]

Last few races we have seen Alonso doing what he does best. Getting the most out of the car. Many can drive a fast car fast. Not many can drive a slow car fast. That said, i do think the poor performance of the Ferrari has been at times overstated. Something that is more easily done when you have such an inconsistent number two driver; makes getting an idea of how good/bad a car is that much more difficult when you have nothing to compare with.

The fact is, even right at the beginning of the season when the Ferrari was at its worst, race pace has actually been not that bad. Qualifying is where they have really struggled and looked like dogs. On the Sunday they have faired much better. Plus of course they have generally done a great job with tactics, pit stops and reliability. All of this combined with Alonso's undoubted talent, and we have a serious title contender emerging. Next few races i think will be crucial for Ferrari.

Up there fighting with Alonso will of course be Vettel. Thought he was a bit unlucky to get quite such a harsh punishment for going off the track. Yes, all his wheels did leave the track, but it wasn't as if he cut the corner. It didn't look at lot different to a few races ago when Hamilton went past Rosberg on the straight and appeared to leave the track. On that occasion, no penalty was given. What the difference was i'm not sure.

I do think though that Vettel should have been a bit more patient with his passing move. Button was obviously struggling and there to be taken.

Regards Vettel's unhappiness with Hamilton trying to unlap himself, i do fully understand why the lead cars should not be held up by slower cars that they are lapping, and these slower cars should keep out of their way, but when a lapped car is on fresh tyres and clearly faster than the lead cars, i think to say they have no right to try and get past, and should just sit behind the lead cars and ruin their own race, is a bit daft and is being overprotective towards the front runners. At the end of the day, if a lapped car is faster than the lead cars and the lead cars don't want to get involved in an overtaking battle, the front runners should either up their pace or just let the faster car past. Far too much interference from stewards these days as it is, in my opinion, and not enough just letting the drivers race. Was good to see on this occasion that they didn't get involved.

Looking forward to another good race this weekend.

[Mosha]

I read on MSN that VW are interested in buying Lotus.

[F1fanatic]

My memory of the early races is that the Ferrari was pretty poor and Alonso performed extremely well, achieving results that were beyond anything expected from the car. The 'good' cars/drivers/strategies though, had to under-perform for him to be able to do this. I agree though, that for the last few races the Ferrari has been one of the best cars. Even so, IMO McLaren and RBR were probably better cars this race.

I don't think Seb's penalty was too harsh as I don't think any driver should be allowed to overtake (or gain an advantage) by going off the track. Presumably Lewis got away with it a couple of races ago as Rosberg was deemed to have (unintentionally) squeezed him off the track and Lewis was deemed to be far enough alongside when this happened? IIRC, Seb had neither of these excuses and used the run-off area to gain advantage.

Finally, the unlapping incident was unfortunate to say the least, but its difficult to know how an incident of this nature can be avoided. Its extremely unusual for a lapped car to be faster than the front runners! Alonso WANTED Lewis in-between him and Seb - it took the pressure off him (Seb had been less than a second behind Alonso up until this happened) - so had no reason to make it easy for Lewis to pass.

[rixalex]

Finally, the unlapping incident was unfortunate to say the least, but its difficult to know how an incident of this nature can be avoided. Its extremely unusual for a lapped car to be faster than the front runners! Alonso WANTED Lewis in-between him and Seb - it took the pressure off him (Seb had been less than a second behind Alonso up until this happened) - so had no reason to make it easy for Lewis to pass.

I don't think anyone is saying Seb should have made it easy for Lewis to pass. I'm certainly not. I'm saying that whilst front runners have a right to expect slower back markers to make it easy for them to pass and not interfere with their race, they have no right to demand that fast back markers not be allowed to attempt to pass them, or complain when they do.

[rixalex]

I don't think Seb's penalty was too harsh as I don't think any driver should be allowed to overtake (or gain an advantage) by going off the track.

Whilst i understand the rules are clear - all four wheels must not leave the track - my feelings were Seb didn't particularly gain an advantage, and that is why i thought to drop from second to fifth was harsh.

[F1fanatic]

Finally, the unlapping incident was unfortunate to say the least, but its difficult to know how an incident of this nature can be avoided. Its extremely unusual for a lapped car to be faster than the front runners! Alonso WANTED Lewis in-between him and Seb - it took the pressure off him (Seb had been less than a second behind Alonso up until this happened) - so had no reason to make it easy for Lewis to pass.

I don't think anyone is saying Seb should have made it easy for Lewis to pass. I'm certainly not. I'm saying that whilst front runners have a right to expect slower back markers to make it easy for them to pass and not interfere with their race, they have no right to demand that fast back markers not be allowed to attempt to pass them, or complain when they do.

But that wasn't my point! Seb (I suspect) didn't think for one moment that Lewis would try to overtake him, until Lewis made the move. It was only then (IIRC), that Seb started defending.

Alonso however, knew exactly what was going on and also knew it worked to his advantage to have Lewis in-between him and Seb to take off the pressure he'd previously experienced.

I disagree that Seb didn't obtain an advantage by overtaking Button off-track. It would have been far more difficult for him if he stayed on the track, but as it was he speeded ahead off-track.

Edited July 25, 2012 by F1fanatic

[rixalex]

I don't think anyone is saying Seb should have made it easy for Lewis to pass. I'm certainly not. I'm saying that whilst front runners have a right to expect slower back markers to make it easy for them to pass and not interfere with their race, they have no right to demand that fast back markers not be allowed to attempt to pass them, or complain when they do.

But that wasn't my point! Seb (I suspect) didn't think for one moment that Lewis would try to overtake him, until Lewis made the move. It was only then (IIRC), that Seb started defending.

Alonso however, knew exactly what was going on and also knew it worked to his advantage to have Lewis in-between him and Seb to take off the pressure he'd previously experienced.

Sorry but i'm unclear from that on what your point is.

I disagree that Seb didn't obtain an advantage by overtaking Button off-track. It would have been far more difficult for him if he stayed on the track, but as it was he speeded ahead off-track.

Far more difficult? I wouldn't have said that. It wasn't like he went a shorter route. He still required the same amount of speed to pass. It did make it a little easier though i agree. Vettel should have been a bit more patient. He wasn't. He paid.

[ignis]

I thought the rules stated that all drivers had to learn English for the interviews. So why are the teams allowed to use, in Ferrari's case this w/end, Italian. In pit to car communication?

I'm sure if an Italian team was forced to use English it would probably be against human rights , last thing Bernie wants is a load of pasta eating do-gooders on his doorstep .

is it Italian ? sound more like a mix of Italian and Spanish

[F1fanatic]

I don't think anyone is saying Seb should have made it easy for Lewis to pass. I'm certainly not. I'm saying that whilst front runners have a right to expect slower back markers to make it easy for them to pass and not interfere with their race, they have no right to demand that fast back markers not be allowed to attempt to pass them, or complain when they do.

But that wasn't my point! Seb (I suspect) didn't think for one moment that Lewis would try to overtake him, until Lewis made the move. It was only then (IIRC), that Seb started defending.

Alonso however, knew exactly what was going on and also knew it worked to his advantage to have Lewis in-between him and Seb to take off the pressure he'd previously experienced.

Sorry but i'm unclear from that on what your point is.

I disagree that Seb didn't obtain an advantage by overtaking Button off-track. It would have been far more difficult for him if he stayed on the track, but as it was he speeded ahead off-track.

Far more difficult? I wouldn't have said that. It wasn't like he went a shorter route. He still required the same amount of speed to pass. It did make it a little easier though i agree. Vettel should have been a bit more patient. He wasn't. He paid.

Sorry, my point was that whilst Lewis un-lapping himself took Seb by suprise, Alonso was fore-warned and was able to defend immediately as it was in his interest to keep a buffer between him and Seb. This IMO hurt Seb (who previously had been less than a second behind Alonso and looking to overtake) , whilst helping Alonso.

BUT, as I said previously, this is an extremely rare situation and not really a problem. Drivers will be more aware in future. Even ESPN commentators were taken by suprise and, mistakenly, thought it was against the rules to impede a front-runner whilst un-lapping oneself!

I still think Seb would have found it a lot more difficult to overtake Button on track. The RBR car doesn't seem as good as the other front runners at overtaking fast cars, which I think is why he was finding it difficult to overtake Alonso (pre Lewis getting in the 'mix').

[b19bry]

I still think Seb would have found it a lot more difficult to overtake Button on track. The RBR car doesn't seem as good as the other front runners at overtaking fast cars, which I think is why he was finding it difficult to overtake Alonso (pre Lewis getting in the 'mix').

You're dead right, Vettel undoubtedly gained an advantage, by running wide into the runoff area he was able to carry a lot more speed which gave him a better exit from the corner and enabled him to easily pass. Had he stayed on track there is no way he could have got passed.

But had he bided his time he would likely have found a way as Jenson's tyres were shot.

Edited July 25, 2012 by b19bry

[rixalex]

Interesting assessment of the current championship leader here. Found it a pretty fair appraisal of his career to date.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18957703

[Sophon]

Leaving out whether or not Vettel should or shouldn't have been penalized, I do wish that the stewards had more flexibility in what penalty they hand out. In this case I think a simple demotion of Vettel to third would have been the correct punishment seen from a sporting point of view, but all they can give is a 20 seconds time penalty. Such a time penalty can sometimes have no consequence and in other cases will cost a lot of places.

Sophon

[b19bry]

Leaving out whether or not Vettel should or shouldn't have been penalized, I do wish that the stewards had more flexibility in what penalty they hand out. In this case I think a simple demotion of Vettel to third would have been the correct punishment seen from a sporting point of view, but all they can give is a 20 seconds time penalty. Such a time penalty can sometimes have no consequence and in other cases will cost a lot of places.

Sophon

Som num naa

[rixalex]

On the subject of Vettel, he did, as Jaime says in this article, seem to lack a bit of his normal composure in Germany. Be interesting to see his reaction this weekend, as well of course as how the Red Bull car performs without the suspected traction control type aid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18962696

[Sophon]

Leaving out whether or not Vettel should or shouldn't have been penalized, I do wish that the stewards had more flexibility in what penalty they hand out. In this case I think a simple demotion of Vettel to third would have been the correct punishment seen from a sporting point of view, but all they can give is a 20 seconds time penalty. Such a time penalty can sometimes have no consequence and in other cases will cost a lot of places.

Sophon

Som num naa

"Som num naa" doesn't really cover the situation where a driver commits an infraction and gets a 20 second time penalty (or drive through), but where the penalty doesn't change the drivers position. There was a situation a couple of seasons ago (If I remember correctly) were Hamilton overtook the safety car coming out of the pit where he should have stayed behind it. By the time the stewards decided to give him the drive through he had gained so much ground, that breaking the rules gave him a huge advantage. I'm a little hazy on the details now (old age), but the fact is breaking the rules ended up giving him an advantage.

To me it doesn't make any sense that the same infraction can sometimes end up costing a driver lots of points, and in other situations gives him an advantage even after the penalty.

Sophon

Edited July 27, 2012 by Sophon

[rixalex]

Leaving out whether or not Vettel should or shouldn't have been penalized, I do wish that the stewards had more flexibility in what penalty they hand out. In this case I think a simple demotion of Vettel to third would have been the correct punishment seen from a sporting point of view, but all they can give is a 20 seconds time penalty. Such a time penalty can sometimes have no consequence and in other cases will cost a lot of places.

Sophon

Som num naa

"Som num naa" doesn't really cover the situation where a driver commits an infraction and gets a 20 second time penalty (or drive through), but where the penalty doesn't change the drivers position. There was a situation a couple of seasons ago (If I remember correctly) were Hamilton overtook the safety car coming out of the pit where he should have stayed behind it. By the time the stewards decided to give him the drive through he had gained so much ground, that breaking the rules gave him a huge advantage. I'm a little hazy on the details now (old age), but the fact is breaking the rules ended up giving him an advantage.

To me it doesn't make any sense that the same infraction can sometimes end up costing a driver lots of points, and in other situations gives him an advantage even after the penalty.

Sophon

I thought that incident might have been in the back of your mind. Yes, it was an example of punishment having no effect. Of course it could have gone the other way. Had there been another safety car period that bunched the cars up, Hamilton's drive through penalty could have put him right at the back.

I guess at the end of the day, if we want punishment to always have the same consequences for the driver, drive throughs and time added on are no good. We have to accept there is a lottery involved in how it affects the driver, or find another type of punishment.

[b19bry]

Leaving out whether or not Vettel should or shouldn't have been penalized, I do wish that the stewards had more flexibility in what penalty they hand out. In this case I think a simple demotion of Vettel to third would have been the correct punishment seen from a sporting point of view, but all they can give is a 20 seconds time penalty. Such a time penalty can sometimes have no consequence and in other cases will cost a lot of places.

Sophon

Som num naa

"Som num naa" doesn't really cover the situation where a driver commits an infraction and gets a 20 second time penalty (or drive through), but where the penalty doesn't change the drivers position. There was a situation a couple of seasons ago (If I remember correctly) were Hamilton overtook the safety car coming out of the pit where he should have stayed behind it. By the time the stewards decided to give him the drive through he had gained so much ground, that breaking the rules gave him a huge advantage. I'm a little hazy on the details now (old age), but the fact is breaking the rules ended up giving him an advantage.

To me it doesn't make any sense that the same infraction can sometimes end up costing a driver lots of points, and in other situations gives him an advantage even after the penalty.

Sophon

No it doesn't but then my comment was directed at the Vettel incident where he tried to cheat and paid the price.

I agree with the sentiment that the punishment should fit the crime but unfortunately there's too much inconsistency in handling driving infringements already. For example Hamilton's similar pass on Rosberg went unpunished ? If penalties are left to the discretion of the stewards at each race this only increases the scope for such inconsistency. In this sense and for practical purposes, having only a limited set of fixed penalties is a good thing.

I believe on balance and in most situations these penalties (when applied) broadly work.

[Mosha]

If drivers can't unlap themselves, we might as well have them pit and get out of the bloody cars when they are lapped on track.

[b19bry]

If drivers can't unlap themselves, we might as well have them pit and get out of the bloody cars when they are lapped on track.

Agreed driver's should be free to unlap themselves, Vettel's problem in the last race was that he was fighting for the lead and lost time and track position when Hamilton got passed him but then was unable to unlap himself to Alonso.

It also probably allowed Button to make a pass at the next pit stop.

Effectively that may have impacted the race result, in that case it's not a driver simply unlapping himself ?

[rixalex]

If drivers can't unlap themselves, we might as well have them pit and get out of the bloody cars when they are lapped on track.

Indeed.

At the end of the day, Hamilton's move was perfectly within the rules, and i can't help thinking that were it Hamilton himself, or Alonso for that matter, the one getting in a fluster about a lapped car unlapping itself, the one seemingly appealing for steward intervention to protect them from the audacity of being overtaken by a lapped car, the one calling the driver who unlapped himself an "idiot", we would be hearing a lot of the "here we go, toys thrown out the pram" type comments. But because it is Vettel...

Were this a battle for 7th and 8th that Hamiton came between, would we be having this discussion at all? Of course not. These positions not important perhaps? Well maybe not for the TV cameras, but for the smaller teams fighting out for the extra points it can make all the difference in the world.

I do feel sometimes front runners consider themselves, or wish to consider themselves, a protected species. For me it's not the way it should work. Rules should be consistent up and down the field. No special treatment.

Anyway, look forward to a good qualifying today.

[F1fanatic]

Leaving out whether or not Vettel should or shouldn't have been penalized, I do wish that the stewards had more flexibility in what penalty they hand out. In this case I think a simple demotion of Vettel to third would have been the correct punishment seen from a sporting point of view, but all they can give is a 20 seconds time penalty. Such a time penalty can sometimes have no consequence and in other cases will cost a lot of places.

Sophon

If Vettel had been demoted to third, he wouldn't really have been penalised as this is where he would have been if he'd voluntarily given up the position (IIRC) - which he didn't.

But I agree that the stewards are v inconsistent edit - and possibly need more flexibility on the penalties imposed. I can understand why they need time to dissect some incidents, but the time delay should not result in the 'offender' having an advantage compared to where they would be if the penalty were given immediately.

Edited July 28, 2012 by F1fanatic

[ignis]

EPG on my box is not working ?

Can't find qualifying time on TV ? on Star Sport or ESPN........ is it on ?

[Mosha]

If it is I can't find it. I know the olympics are on, but come on. 4 channels of it. Surely they could spare 1 hour

[ignis]

If it is I can't find it. I know the olympics are on, but come on. 4 channels of it. Surely they could spare 1 hour

Guess not, as on Star Sport is Cycle Road Race Live...... Very slow and nowhere near 300 + kmh

[Mosha]

F1 site looks like a wet race. I won't say who is on pole, in case it's on in the morning

[rixalex]

It was on but because of the Olympics, it got moved to ESPN HD. Not sure if you guys have access to that. Picture quality was amazing. I wish it was shown on that channel every race, although i suspect it will be a one-off.

Hamilton commanded both practice and qualifying, and by rights with pole and with overtaking so tricky, its his race for the taking. But my feeling is Hamilton does tend to do a bit better when coming from a few places behind. Haven't seen the stats but i feel like his conversion rate of poles to wins isn't as good as others. Plus of course there is all the bungling of tactics and pit-stops that have marred McClaren this season, fastest ever pit-stop with-standing.

So i think for the race, it could be a lot closer than qualifying and i wouldn't be surprised to see Vettel and Alonso, as well as Romain, right up there and fighting for a win.

[Totster]

Leaving out whether or not Vettel should or shouldn't have been penalized, I do wish that the stewards had more flexibility in what penalty they hand out. In this case I think a simple demotion of Vettel to third would have been the correct punishment seen from a sporting point of view, but all they can give is a 20 seconds time penalty. Such a time penalty can sometimes have no consequence and in other cases will cost a lot of places.

Sophon

If Vettel had been demoted to third, he wouldn't really have been penalised as this is where he would have been if he'd voluntarily given up the position (IIRC) - which he didn't.

If Vettel had let button straight back past him, Vettel would have most probably come in second. Button has already stated this as his tyres were shot.

The penalties have to be fair,clear and consistent, more flexibility would would make things very complicated and could open the door for complaints, appeals and such like. It is much better for there to be the one penalty, everyone knows this is the penalty and everyone accepts that.

Whether or not it costs someone a place on the grid is irrelevant.

totster