Corruption In Thailand

[theblether]

You can't stop corruption in any country, you can only lessen it.

[StreetCowboy]

You can't stop corruption in any country, you can only lessen it.

You can stop a lot of it. You can make it the exception, rather than the norm.

You can reduce it to the extent that it does not need to feature as a line item in project budgets.

SC

[Sing_Sling]

If taken to court can the person receiving this 'facilitation fee' be charged with a crime or not? If yes, then it is a crime - if not then it is a 'facilitation fee'.

It wouldn't get that far. 1000 baht would ensure it doesnt go to court.

Facilitation fees do work!

I wonder how many voicing their disgust have ever taken part in it without even knowing it.

I remember using a translation company as a one stop shop to take care of the marriage process.

We were taken to Prakhanong district office where others were waiting to register their marriage, both farang and Thai.

The mrs and I were dealt with immediately, neither of us were asked to pay any money, I am not naive enough to not know that included in the marriage service agents fee was a renumeration for expediting the process.

The whole process was completed within a day, that included all the paperwork for the wife to change her id card and passport.

As the wife and I relaxed that evening, we refelected on the pittance spent, and just how much we would have saved by doing the process ourselves, time wasted dealing with bureaucracy, names not translated correctly etc etc.

Lets not forget those who employ visa agents to complete the one year extension process, somewhere betwen 6 and 9 k baht I think is the norm.

Are they guilty of corruption for not gettting off their lazy asses and doing it themselves?

So, the other people who were made to wait even longer because of you deserved it . . while

the wife and I relaxed that evening

Nice

As for visa extension - it depends if you are having it done because it is in better hands with a professional or you want to circumvent the process.

(Darn - SC beat me to it)

Edited March 21, 2012 by Sing_Sling

[StreetCowboy]

I suppose, contrary to my post a few lines earlier, some businesses encourage their staff to take 'back-handers' from the customers; elsewhere, we call these "tips", though in some businesses, there are systems put in place to ensure that all staff benefit, and I believe, in these cases, the direct handing of money to the staff to circumvent this equitable sharing is discouraged.

However, I think such behaviour is not the norm in professional or bureaucratic organisations, in Thailand or anywhere else.

SC

EDIT: Typo corrected

Edited March 21, 2012 by StreetCowboy

[bendix]

I suppose, contrary to my pot a few lines earlier, some businesses encourage their staff to take 'back-handers' from the customers; elsewhere, we call these "tips", though in some businesses, there are systems put in place to ensure that all staff benefit, and I believe, in these cases, the direct handing of money to the staff to circumvent this equitable sharing is discouraged.

However, I think such behaviour is not the norm in professional or bureaucratic organisations, in Thailand or anywhere else.

SC

The line between tip and facilitation fee can be very blurred. What is the difference between my wife paying a couple of grand to avoid waiting for three days for her land registration to processed and passing a maitre dee a twenty to get a good table in a packed restaurant?

[StreetCowboy]

I suppose, contrary to my pot a few lines earlier, some businesses encourage their staff to take 'back-handers' from the customers; elsewhere, we call these "tips", though in some businesses, there are systems put in place to ensure that all staff benefit, and I believe, in these cases, the direct handing of money to the staff to circumvent this equitable sharing is discouraged.

However, I think such behaviour is not the norm in professional or bureaucratic organisations, in Thailand or anywhere else.

SC

The line between tip and facilitation fee can be very blurred. What is the difference between my wife paying a couple of grand to avoid waiting for three days for her land registration to processed and passing a maitre dee a twenty to get a good table in a packed restaurant?

Both are corrupt.

The maitre d may have the authority so that he could make that decision in any case; the bureaucratic peon does not. IN any case, the maitre d should be allocating tables for the benefit of his employer - either to encourage good customers to come back, or to maximise turnover, according to the policy of the restaurant. Not lining his own pockets by allowing any flash-harry to bribe his way into an exclusive restaurant.

Similarly, if the government wishes to offer a two-tier system (for example, to allow a quick turn-around on passport issue) then the fee for that service should accrue to the state, either so that they can reduce the burden to the taxpayer or reduce their fees for those that can afford to wait, not lining the pockets of selected officials so that they can buy imported cars.

SC

If the Lands Department can process

[bendix]

I wish I was as idealistic as you SC. I used to have principles too. Now I am time poor and have absolutely no qualms about using what small advantages I have to smooth the way for my loved ones in life.

Sadly those beloved principles went the same way as my hairline.

Edited March 21, 2012 by bendix

[rgs2001uk]

So, the other people who were made to wait even longer because of you deserved it . . while

the wife and I relaxed that evening

Nice

(Darn - SC beat me to it)

I merely recounted my observations, you have applied your own connotations, I offered no opinion whatsoever.

I wonder how many of the farang sitting in the sweat box of an office would gladly have utilised the same company I used if they had been aware ot its existence and the service offered.

That some choose not to use such companies is no concern of mine.

[Sing_Sling]

So, the other people who were made to wait even longer because of you deserved it . . while

the wife and I relaxed that evening

Nice

(Darn - SC beat me to it)

I merely recounted my observations, you have applied your own connotations, I offered no opinion whatsoever.

I wonder how many of the farang sitting in the sweat box of an office would gladly have utilised the same company I used if they had been aware ot its existence and the service offered.

That some choose not to use such companies is no concern of mine.

I merely quoted you, nothing else. As to your following sentence - why not start a thread on that. Seriously, it may be a useful guide on how to circumvent the tedium of Thai bureaucracy

[rgs2001uk]

So, the other people who were made to wait even longer because of you deserved it . . while

the wife and I relaxed that evening

Nice

(Darn - SC beat me to it)

I merely recounted my observations, you have applied your own connotations, I offered no opinion whatsoever.

I wonder how many of the farang sitting in the sweat box of an office would gladly have utilised the same company I used if they had been aware ot its existence and the service offered.

That some choose not to use such companies is no concern of mine.

I merely quoted you, nothing else. As to your following sentence - why not start a thread on that. Seriously, it may be a useful guide on how to circumvent the tedium of Thai bureaucracy

Have no need to start a thread, I am not involved with any such company so have no need to advertise services offered.

I was merely a customer of such companies and was happy with both the price and service offered, that others may be unaware of, or unable to afford such services is no concern of mine.

[theblether]

You can't stop corruption in any country, you can only lessen it.

You can stop a lot of it. You can make it the exception, rather than the norm.

You can reduce it to the extent that it does not need to feature as a line item in project budgets.

SC

At the risk of starting a fight

You just proved my point...........I did say you can only lessen it.

Edited March 21, 2012 by theblether

[wana]

is it corrupt to visit a government hospital at 16.00pm to see a doctor ?

from 9am to 16.00 its very overcrowded with thai people on the 30 thb medicail care scheme

after 16.00 i the afternoon there are much less people and the waiting time is shorter BECAUSE

THE DOCTORS ARE ON OVERTIME ,SO IT COSTS MORE BUT THE WAITING TIME IS LESS

are these doctors corrupt ? are people who have more money corrupt for not going at 9am and waiting

all day ?

people say ,paying extra money to expeditite ANY service is supporting corruption and making people suffer

who cant afford the faster service (stepping on the poor ,was a phrase someone used )

it quickly gets blurry when you start to compare corruption and convenience ,paying a bit more to have your

documents priortised in 10 minutes rather than 2-3 days etc

[StreetCowboy]

is it corrupt to visit a government hospital at 16.00pm to see a doctor ?

from 9am to 16.00 its very overcrowded with thai people on the 30 thb medicail care scheme

after 16.00 i the afternoon there are much less people and the waiting time is shorter BECAUSE

THE DOCTORS ARE ON OVERTIME ,SO IT COSTS MORE BUT THE WAITING TIME IS LESS

are these doctors corrupt ? are people who have more money corrupt for not going at 9am and waiting

all day ?

people say ,paying extra money to expeditite ANY service is supporting corruption and making people suffer

who cant afford the faster service (stepping on the poor ,was a phrase someone used )

it quickly gets blurry when you start to compare corruption and convenience ,paying a bit more to have your

documents priortised in 10 minutes rather than 2-3 days etc

It is corrupt when a salaried employee pockets payments contrary to his terms of employment in order to provide preferential treatment.

It is not corrupt for a government department to offer a two-tier system, in order to allow the public to make a choice in their valuation of their time.

It would be corrupt of the bank clerk to say "give us a fiver, and I'll do your telegraphic transfer first"

It would not be corrupt for the bank to say "Its ten pounds for a same-day transfer, or five pounds for processing tomorrow"

I don't really see what is so difficult to understand about that.

SC

[theblether]

I do have a story to recount.......but I'm in a state of terror in case I get jumped on by the holier than thou mad squad. Och to hell with it..........here we go.

Firstly I know a high level police commander who is currently in CM investigating corruption. Full stop. I know her name, I have drunk with her several times, and I am on friendly terms with her. I do not have any influence over her, I cannot make a phone call and get someone sorted, and I do not pretend to be highly connected with a Hi-So Thai/Chinese wife blah, blah, blah. I can also confirm that I was in the British army but I was not in the SAS, I do know gangsters, I interact with some every day, but they think I am a harmless idiot and that makes me happy. I like being a harmless idiot.

In CM it was well known that the nightclub Spicy was able to circumvent normal licensing laws. It was suspected that there was some serious tea money being paid, in fact the level discussed by people who claimed to be in the know was 50% of profits. There are many wise people in CM that know everything about everyone, and at the end of it all ask you for a loan of 1,000 baht till their next payment comes through.

Anyway, I'm led to believe that the Military Police were called in to harass and close down Spicy in it's former location, was this a case of big dog, bigger dog? Or was it a case of big dog, honest dog? Or was it a case of Selective Honesty Disorder? I don't know, and I don't care. However there are many people that do care, they spend endless nights speculating about it in the bars of Chiang Mai, and at the end of the night ask you to cover the bar tab until their next payment comes in.

So let's return to my police drinking partner, who is quite hot looking and if I get a chance I'm going to jump her bones............I asked her the question that all of we TV members would ask if given the chance, I said to her..........."Dear Ms Highly Powerful police corruption squad commander that I want to bone jump, why don't you do something about the jetski operators in Pattaya".

There was a silence.......she looked me straight in the eye, and she said............"It's not my area".

She found it difficult to make eye contact with me as I was fascinated by the curvature of her breasts in that tight police blouse.

Anyway, a few days later I was in the company of a guy who is the father of a friend, he is a ( wait for it ) planning official in Chiang Mai province. Yes, they exist. Over the course of a couple of bottles of Chivas Regal the subject of, ahem, corruption came up. This gentleman told me that it was endemic that people looked at you as if you were stupid if you refused to accept money. he recounted a story where he was asked to view a building plot, which he duly did. When he saw the plot he knew permission had been granted to build a road through that vicinity within a few months. He told the people that, and said he would have to go check the plans to see exactly where the plot lay in accordance to the new road. ( turned out later to be below it ).

They thought it was a negotiating ploy........"Is OK Somchai, we pay you more, you give permission now"........"Can't, new road is big road"........",Is OK, you can move easy, we pay you good money"..........."But it is a very big road",........."OK, how much you want to move it?"........"I can't move it".........."OH, you very good negotiate, ok........100,000 baht".........."Cannot do even for 1 million baht".........at which point he jumped in his car and left the people blinking in shock that there attempt had failed.

Did this guy say he had never been back handed? no.......did I ask?.......no. It's none of my business, but the point he made was it's so endemic in Thailand that you can't even get people to believe you when you are telling the truth.

Now that is a systematic problem, but it's a problem throughout Asia. If you think Thailand is bad, try China. Doing business in China is like walking through Alice In Wonderland while tripping on LSD.

The systemic problems come from many separate issues.......one is the lack of an established middle class in the country, they will develop over the next 40+ years. Another is the absolute poverty that many people live in, and they know how to GRAFT their way out. One of the best ways to GRAFT your way out is to join the police. There has to be a tighter grip on the Rule of Law, as compared to the Rule of Man, and time must pass to allow the society to become richer and more educated.

Even at that point, you won't undo corruption, the scale just get's bigger, and more sophisticated. This is USA election year..........Pork Barrel year. There are promises being made all over the place in return for support, and in return for money for the campaigns. Everything is for sale, even the US presidency........it's only a question of the price you pay.

Anyway, I wonder what that police woman is doing for Songkran..........

[Sing_Sling]

no concern of mine.

That seems to be your usual attitude - nice.

I don't really see what is so difficult to understand about that.

Shouldn't be but seems to be for some

[samran]

I don't think it's as simple as that samran. The law firm I work with has recently published a guide to corruption and bribery in Asia, a different chapter on each country. It's interesting to note how the definition of corruption changes in each country, sometimes ever so discreetly. In many countries, the paying of 'facilitation fees' is perfectly legal and acceptable, for example, in others not.

I'm with Naam on this - there are gradations of corruption and I would argue that paying facilitation fees to get things taken care of is one of the joys of being in Thailand. I don't mean paying to get your way out of traffic tickets - i agree with you that abiding by the law is the way to avoid those sort of issues.

But I recently had an example that puts a different perspective on things. My wife had to go to her amphur to legally register some land that she had bought and paid for but - for a variety of reasons - were still legally in the hands of some relatives.

She went all the way to Ubon to take care of this, and was told that it could take her sitting around for days before it was processed properly. On the other hand, a facilitation fee of 2000 would make sure it was all taken care of that morning.

Sure, she could have done the noble thing and sat and waited around for days, while others who had paid bribes got their issues taken care of first.

Only a fool would have done so though.

Facilitation fees make the world go round throughout Asia. I have no problem with it, and linking them to the Santika fire or hisos getting away with murder as some are trying to do is just hyperbole.

I certainly am not naive enough to think that stuff like that doesn't go on every day, and I don't think stuff like that is going to go away over night. But where possible, I like to think I try and find honest and legit 'ways' around to get things achieved, which I've noticed is what many people who are successful in life (and in Thailand) do with aplomb.

As always, there is never a simple answer.

Stuff like that (in BKK, but potentially over the other side I've town) in the past I've generally sent a runner from work. Give him a couple of hundred baht to give the paperwork and then pick it up a few hours, or if needed, days later. For me, one of the joys of Thailand is that you can do that quite easily. The runner makes a bit of extra cash in addition to his job a motorcycle boy. The paperwork gets processed, my time is saved and all are happy. I've done the same thing for one of my traffic fines.

Your wife had to go 600km away, and was held over a barrel time wise so to speak. I'm not going to pretend that she had realistic alternatives.

More broadly, yes, hiring people/firms is fine with me. Not because they've become the bribe paying intermediary for me (cause they haven't as far as I can figure for what I've needed), but like any service provider, I've paid them to save me time. In other cases, I guess, yeah, you know that even though you are paying a flat fee, then some of it goes into someones pockets. Importing personal belongings comes to mind.

One of the other great joys in Thailand is the ability to build up relationships that, in the end, can help facilitate future interactions. And I mean a personal type of relationship you can build with coal face officials that I've never seemed to be able to develop in the west. I'd encourage people to try and do this wherever they can.

Again, this isn't going to be of help in your wife's situation, and probably reveals a slightly sadistic streak in me, but for the most part I've never minded sitting waiting at the Ampur office etc, at least for the first time to speak to the officials etc to get to understand the processes. In the process, you generally can build up a bit of a working relationship with the people and from then on, they can be extremely helpful.

Based on the relationship started getting my Thai ID sorted with them when I first moved to Thailand, I was able to there after sort (cleanly) my military service issues, the paperwork for my wife's Thai citizenship application and they helped explain the process I needed to get our Burmese maid legal. Stuff like that has probably inoculated me against the cynicism we see on chat boards like this.

But you are right, Asia does work differently, and for me the key difference is the relationship factor. I'd be lying if I didn't add that on a return trip from Australia I haven't bought along a couple of packs of Tim Tams to say 'Thank You' to the Ampur people, but that I think is appreciated in Thailand, and non-offensive to people who I generally meet who don't expect cash payments for doing their jobs.

On the topic of facilitation fees, perhaps it was better if it was just made official, so at least the money goes into consolidated revenue. At the airport you can already pay extra to get fast-tracked through immigration in BKK and we have the BOI fast tracking of visa's. Having lived in the UK and having to extend my visa's there was regularly the choice of making the premium payment to extend the visa and getting it back pronto, or having paying the cheap price and have my passport vanish into the bowels of the Home Office for an indeterminable period of time.

On another note, it would be good to get my hands on your firms corruption guide. For me, it would be an interesting read.

Edited March 21, 2012 by samran

[Naam]

on a sidenote... most participants in this thread have no idea what corruption is. reason: the ridiculous 100 or 200 Baht a traffic cop might ask are chewed ad nauseam over and over again. i wish the anti corruption warriors have the opportunity to spend a few years in "black" Africa as a CEO or project manager and learn first hand what real corruption looks and feels like.

[mackes]

Nice thread! It really got me thinking of what is unfair and what is not!

It seems harmless to fix a wedding or a land owner change with a couple of thousands baht for convenience.

Sure, but who are the losers and how cares? Yes, that's the core question: Caring about other or empathy as we also call it,

something that only exist in civilizations reaching to a certain point in the evaluation. Not being animals any more...

In a culture where it is accepted to pay yourself out of difficulties and leaving those to the people without means your in for a real unfairness.

If those people were out of means due to laciness I don't care, but that is not always the case. The thing it's about being at the right place at

the right time and catch the opportunity. But what's if your in the wrong place and no opportunity occurs?

I don't mind using my money to passing the lazy and easygoing ones in the line but there are hardworking people

waiting in the line, by bypassing them you actually take the food out of their hands. And thats not fair!

So my empathy nerve says better inconvenient and fair than convenient and stepping on other people!

[samran]

on a sidenote... most participants in this thread have no idea what corruption is. reason: the ridiculous 100 or 200 Baht a traffic cop might ask are chewed ad nauseam over and over again. i wish the anti corruption warriors have the opportunity to spend a few years in "black" Africa as a CEO or project manager and learn first hand what real corruption looks and feels like.

You mean like watching three members of the panel you are on which is being tasked with letting a government project being marched out during the assessment meeting by their boss and then coming back with EXACTLY the same assessment score in favour of the weakest and most expensive bidder?

Or how about watching the guy at a multi-billion dollar listed firm - who you've never been able to figure out what he does - all of a sudden call up a broker to wire millions of dollars for no apparent reason?

Edited March 21, 2012 by samran

[StreetCowboy]

on a sidenote... most participants in this thread have no idea what corruption is. reason: the ridiculous 100 or 200 Baht a traffic cop might ask are chewed ad nauseam over and over again. i wish the anti corruption warriors have the opportunity to spend a few years in "black" Africa as a CEO or project manager and learn first hand what real corruption looks and feels like.

You mean like watching three members of the panel you are on which is being tasked with letting a government project being marched out during the assessment meeting by their boss and then coming back with EXACTLY the same assessment score in favour of the weakest and most expensive bidder?

Or how about watching the guy at a multi-billion dollar listed firm - who you've never been able to figure out what he does - all of a sudden call up a broker to wire millions of dollars for no apparent reason?

Like being asked to lose an extra 15% in your budget for a government contract?

[samran]

on a sidenote... most participants in this thread have no idea what corruption is. reason: the ridiculous 100 or 200 Baht a traffic cop might ask are chewed ad nauseam over and over again. i wish the anti corruption warriors have the opportunity to spend a few years in "black" Africa as a CEO or project manager and learn first hand what real corruption looks and feels like.

You mean like watching three members of the panel you are on which is being tasked with letting a government project being marched out during the assessment meeting by their boss and then coming back with EXACTLY the same assessment score in favour of the weakest and most expensive bidder?

Or how about watching the guy at a multi-billion dollar listed firm - who you've never been able to figure out what he does - all of a sudden call up a broker to wire millions of dollars for no apparent reason?

Like being asked to lose an extra 15% in your budget for a government contract?

Only 15%??

[Sing_Sling]

Not Africa . . . try Indonesia. Village roadblocks. Customs allowing containers to be emptied and refilled with landfill etc...

[wana]

Not Africa . . . try Indonesia. Village roadblocks. Customs allowing containers to be emptied and refilled with landfill etc...

try cambodia ,the marlboro cigarete factory owner was complaining about the staggering amount of black market marlboro cigarettes being sold cheaply in

cambodia ,thailand ,vietnam and malasia

rumour has it ,the illegal cigaretes were produced in the same factory that produces the "official" ones

staff and "management" must be making a bomb on the nightshift

welcome to corruption

[Naam]

on a sidenote... most participants in this thread have no idea what corruption is. reason: the ridiculous 100 or 200 Baht a traffic cop might ask are chewed ad nauseam over and over again. i wish the anti corruption warriors have the opportunity to spend a few years in "black" Africa as a CEO or project manager and learn first hand what real corruption looks and feels like.

You mean like watching three members of the panel you are on which is being tasked with letting a government project being marched out during the assessment meeting by their boss and then coming back with EXACTLY the same assessment score in favour of the weakest and most expensive bidder?

Or how about watching the guy at a multi-billion dollar listed firm - who you've never been able to figure out what he does - all of a sudden call up a broker to wire millions of dollars for no apparent reason?

i could tell many interesting stories which, in comparison, would ridicule and depict even top dog corruption in Thailand as choir boys stealing some coins from the church collection basket. however, Mrs Naam ordered me to keep quiet, eat my vegetables and sip my port... or else.

[Naam]

on a sidenote... most participants in this thread have no idea what corruption is. reason: the ridiculous 100 or 200 Baht a traffic cop might ask are chewed ad nauseam over and over again. i wish the anti corruption warriors have the opportunity to spend a few years in "black" Africa as a CEO or project manager and learn first hand what real corruption looks and feels like.

You mean like watching three members of the panel you are on which is being tasked with letting a government project being marched out during the assessment meeting by their boss and then coming back with EXACTLY the same assessment score in favour of the weakest and most expensive bidder?

Or how about watching the guy at a multi-billion dollar listed firm - who you've never been able to figure out what he does - all of a sudden call up a broker to wire millions of dollars for no apparent reason?

Like being asked to lose an extra 15% in your budget for a government contract?

Only 15%??

yes... for starters and warm up

[bendix]

On another note, it would be good to get my hands on your firms corruption guide. For me, it would be an interesting read.

Drop me a line on my work email - you know the address - and I'll sort out a couple of copies for you. There are two. One is a Guide to Anti-Corruption in Asia. The second is even more on point, a Guide to Anti-Bribery Regulations in Asia - Gifts and Entertainment.

[silsburyhill]

]

Actually, it would be possible, but it would take a ruthless dictator with the kind of general popularity that Thaksin had in his first few years combined with the full public support of the monarchy.

And there's the rub ...

[Sing_Sling]

Not Africa . . . try Indonesia. Village roadblocks. Customs allowing containers to be emptied and refilled with landfill etc...

try cambodia ,the marlboro cigarete factory owner was complaining about the staggering amount of black market marlboro cigarettes being sold cheaply in

cambodia ,thailand ,vietnam and malasia

rumour has it ,the illegal cigaretes were produced in the same factory that produces the "official" ones

staff and "management" must be making a bomb on the nightshift

welcome to corruption

Staggering, isn't it . . .

[Heimdallr]

Some of you say we as foreigners cannot do anything about it. What if there was a website for people (Thai and foreigners alike) to report corruption? To post videos, recordings, and stories about instances of corruption (spy cams may become useful)? It could be a great start.

[wana]

Some of you say we as foreigners cannot do anything about it. What if there was a website for people (Thai and foreigners alike) to report corruption? To post videos, recordings, and stories about instances of corruption (spy cams may become useful)? It could be a great start.

a great way to get thrown out of the country or killed too for operating such a site ........