Applying For Resident Visa With Non Imm Ed Visa

[sjoca1]

Hi, two questions that maybe someone has info on: esp DR P:

Next month I will renew my non-immigrant ED student visa for the third consecutive time in three years i.e now renewed each year for three years. I was wondering if this qualifies me to apply for a permenant resident visa? In addition, I have the government Bo Hok certificate in Thai. Some people tell me that this greatly facilitates non-immigrant visa applications, even more than being married. I am not sure if this is because I have the certificate or the fact that I can speak fluent Thai? !! I am a 25 yr old Australian and currently study at Chula.

Secondly, has any one heard about the new regulations for Australian passport holders under the FTA which is to be ratified in June? Apparently all Aussies, whether business people or teachers, students etc can use the express visa centre, will need less documentation than other nationalities when applying for work permits etc and can apply for a work permit at the thai embassy in Canberra before going to Thailand. This is on the DFAT website. Sounds to good to be true or what?

[samran]

Dunno about apply for residency under your category. Best go down to immigration at Suan Phlu and see what they say. I know that for instance they require tax returns which being a student you won't have. The fact that you speak Thai will make it easier to chat to them.

Regarding the FTA, just remember that they rushed through the announcement to coincide with...surprise surprise....APEC. So, while they have an "agreement", you can be assured (I have good sources) that the actual details of the agreement are far from finalised. As with all these things, the devil will be in the details..

I went back and read the text of the of the media releases on the DFAT website a couple of times, and my genreal reponse was "how are they going to do that?". In many instances, what they have proposed will require not only ratification, but in Thailands case, changes in the law. And if you know how slowly the Krasidika works, then you know that legal ammendments to any legislation will take many years to draft and process, delaying any potential benefits from the FTA. Competition policy is an area that immediately springs to mind.

To be honest, while I am happy that OZ has got itself an FTA with Thailand, I am not sure either side knows what they have gotten themselves into.

[Bobcat]

It may be difficult for you as one of the requirements is to show your tax payments for the last 3 years. Without these, your PR application is likely to be denied.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

It may be difficult for you as one of the requirements is to show your tax payments for the last 3 years. Without these, your PR application is likely to be denied.

Nevertheless...ask 'em at Suan Phlu aka the Herb Garden. Certainly, some retiree's have been permitted to apply for PR. The 3 years continuous extensions is only one of the conditions that enable one to apply for PR.

[Khutan]

I know its a little off topic, but is Suan Phlu the only place you can do the PR application.

My friend at Kab Choeng which is alot more quiet now the refugee camp is closed, tells me he can do everything there except a work permit.....

I cannot understand if he just sends it to Bangkok, or does it himself.

Anyone have an opinion.

[camel_jockey]

sorry to be the fool here, but what is an FTA?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

FTA is FREE TRADE AGREEMENT, such as the one being entered into by Australia and Thailand.

[Bobcat]

The submission period for PR applications is usually at the end of each year, as has been the case for the last several years. For 2003, applications were accepted from December 21 through to December 31. Applications and supporting documents can be submitted to any immigration office in Thailand. My understanding, from discussions with the immigration officials, is that the PR interview takes place in Bangkok - irrespective of where the application was lodged. Hope that helps.

[mijan24]

In the above responses it is indicated that one of the requirements for PR is tax returns. Does this mean if one is in LOS Non Immg Type O (Thai spouse) with regular income from abroad they can not be considered due to no tax returns?

Mijan24

[dr_Pat_Pong]

A retiree or a married farang can obviously apply.... at least notionally, a student is a student. I suspect it might be too hard for this fellow to apply.

[sabaijai]

Thai immigration, and a Thai immigration lawyer, both told me that to qualify for PR you not only needed three consecutive years of non-imm extensions, but also three consecutive years with a work permit.

As far as I know there's no specific language requirement for PR, although there is for Thai nationality. I know friends who have received PR and they were never asked for Bo 6 or any other language certification. On the other hand I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to place it in your porfolio as supporting evidence.

[Bobcat]

There is a list of documents required to apply for PR. I think there are roughly about 19 things on the list. I submitted my application in December 2003 and my interview is scheduled for March 2004. The immigration officer basically went down the list and ticked the boxes. I needed my tax returns for the past 3 years, my work permit (showing extensions for the past 3 years), my new and old passports (the old to show my original non B which was granted back in 1999). I also needed numerous documents from my employer, including proof of salary and position, accounting records of the company, tax returns of the company, and other corporate docs of the company showing shareholding structure and capital etc. I needed certified copies of my university degrees as well as a letter from the police in my home country stating that I did not have a criminal record. Both the university degrees and the police letter needed to be stamped by my embassy here in Bangkok. I had various other documents to show them as well which I thought would help - such as my Thai driver's license, Bor 6 certificate, title deeds to my condo etc but they were not interested in anything which wasn't on the list. The immigration officer told me that starting this year there will be a Thai language component to the interview which will consist of ten multiple choice questions about Thailand, probably about the monarchy, the democtratic system, the Thai flag and perhaps questions about the current government. My understanding is that this language component of the interview will be important. If anyone is interested I can post the full list of documents required for PR last year when I applied. There are 100 PR certificates given out per country. I was the 8th to apply from Australia and I applied on the second last day that applications were open for submission.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The Thai language test has been around for quite some time. Good luck. It ain't a breeze.

[Bobcat]

I guess it depends on your level of proficiency in the language. I'll let you know how it goes.

[sabaijai]

Bobcat, I'd like to see that list as long as you're offering to post it. I've never heard of any PR applicant being asked for a Bo 6 certificate. I haven't applied myself, won't be eligible for another year, but might as well start collecting documentation now. Just chasing down my ancient uni degrees will take some time ...

[Bobcat]

"I had various other documents to show them as well which I thought would help - such as my Thai driver's license, Bor 6 certificate, title deeds to my condo etc but they were not interested in anything which wasn't on the list."

Sabajai, Bor 6 is not a requirement - although I thought it would held. Turns out they only wanted the documents that are listed. I'll post the list shortly.

[sabaijai]

I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to add the language cert. My lawyer says one should present not only what's required by law as evidence but also any 'supporting evidence' that may help boost immigration's view of you as a worthy resident, etc. Hence while it's not at all a requirement that you be married to a Thai citizen, if you are married to a Thai then that can be used as supporting evidence. At least this is how I understand it.

If you had, for example, graduated from Chula with a degree in Thai (or a degree in any field for which the medium of instruction was entirely Thai), that would probably make strong supporting evidence. In my case the bigger role Thai language plays in the application process, the happier I'll be as that is one of my main strengths as an applicant. I lecture in Thai at universities here, and will probably include letters of reference to that effect when I do apply for the Residence Permit. Now you've got me thinking I might as well do the Bo 6 exam, though my Thai is more at the post-Mo So level

[Bobcat]

There are several categories under which you can apply for PR in Thailand. I applied under the "business" category. Other categories include expert/academic, investment, family support, humanitarian. There may be others. The list of documents required for each category is slightly different.

For the business category, the following documents are required:

1. Application form (TM.9);

2. Personal information sheet;

3. Health certificate from a hospital (issued within the previous 3 months).

4. Certification from Australian Federal Police that I had no criminal record in Australia. This had to be translated into Thai (by an official translator) and certified by the Australian Embassy in Bangkok. This certificate mustn't be more than 6 months old.

5. Official marriage and birth certificates (in case of accompanying family members who are also applying) - I am single so this didn't apply to me.

6. Copy of university degree or other educational certificates. Again, translated into Thai (by an official translator) and certified by the Australian Embassy in Bangkok.

7. Copy of work permit. Also need to bring the original with you when submitting your application.

8. Copy of annual personal income tax forms with receipts for the previous 3 years. These need to be certified by the Revenue Department.

9. Copy of each months personal income tax forms (por ngor dor 1) with receipts from January of year of application until the month before applying. Also need to be certified.

10. Company registration certificate or juristic person certificate of employer - certified by authorised director of the company. This cannot be more than 3 months old.

11. Copy of value added tax (VAT) registration of the company. Also, not more than 3 months old.

12. List of company shareholders. Also, not more than 3 months old.

13. Company balance sheet and income tax with receipt (por ngor dor 50) for the previous 1 year.

14. Map of residence and place of work.

15. Copy of passport (must show a total of 3 year's travel history to Thailand). I had to show them my old passport as well becuase my original B1 was in the old passport.

16. Photos of (a) your apartment (outside, showing the apartment name), ( you inside your apartment, © you at work with your secretary or other staff, (d) you in front of your company signboard at work and (e) the office building showing its name. These aren't stipulated in the list but they are required.

All docs in a language other than Thai must be accompanied by an official Thai translation.

As I say, there requirements for the other categories may differ and some of the above documents may not be required.

Cheers,

Bobcat

[Bobcat]

I agree that additional supporting evidence is a good thing. However, for the application process itself, the officials will not take any other supporting documents other than those listed as being required. They looked at my Bor. 6 and thought it was cool, but said they didn't need it. It clearly is a major plus to speak Thai. I went on my own and have a great chat to the officials when submitting my application. They told me that the Thai test would be easy for me. It is a sign of respect to speak Thai, an a clear indication that you are a serious applicant.

I'm certain you will have absolutely no problems.

Regards,

Bobcat

[Bobcat]

I learned Thai by using the same books as a Thai child. I went from Bor 1 to Bor 6. After I finished the Bor 6 book, I took the Bor 6 exam. Frankly, the Bor 6 exam for foreigners is approximately equivalent to Bor 4 for a Thai student. Bor 6 for Thai students is much more sophisticated than the Bor 6 test for foreigners.

[sjoca1]

Since posting I have been down to Suan Plu and can confirm that there is now a category for students to apply i.e people who have studied in thailand for an extended period of time. No w.p is required for this.

Regarding thai language, immigration immediately started speaking in Thai once it was understood that I wanted to apply as a student saying in thai that if I had been a student here for the last three years it would and is expected that one can speak Thai.

According to the guy at imm I spoke to, the B. 6 cert helps a lot. I also have a diploma in applied language in Thai from RMIT Melbourne which can be used as supporting documentation.

In all, after the talk and the information I was given, I find it hard to believe some of the posts regarding immigration. I think on the whole, they are pretty good but have to deal with a lot of farang Kii Nok.

[samran]

In all, after the talk and the information I was given, I find it hard to believe some of the posts regarding immigration. I think on the whole, they are pretty good but have to deal with a lot of farang Kii Nok.

I do have a good laugh from time to time watching stubborn farang go up against the Thai bureaucracy

I think the Thai officials sometime get a kick out of it too!

[sabaijai]

Bobcat, thanks for posting that list, and clarifying the various categories, something which has so far not been explained to me. I find Thai law interesting in itself, aside from how it might apply to me personally.

I have the relevant immigration text here at home as I've been asked to translate it for publication in English, and it says nothing about their being different categories for the Residence Permit. It lists a single set of documents needed, much like the one you listed (but less complete actually). This is the text that the immigration officers are supposed to follow, written by top immigration staff, etc, and used for training of new staff.

Similarly one of the Thai consulates -- I forget which one, Wash DC maybe? -- has a web page on PR with a similar list of requirements and no mention of different categories. It makes sense that there would be different ways to approach permanent residence, but interesting that you (or at least I) don't see this on paper.

This suggets there's wide margin for interpretation at the practical level (duh).

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Sabaijai....by now, you should know that the rules are that there are no rules.

[george]

http://www.thaivisa.com/300.0.html

Look in the left frame for the different categories for PR.

[sabaijai]

Sabaijai....by now, you should know that the rules are that there are no rules.

Well, yes and no. More like some rules are followed very strictly, some less so and some not all. In cases where a rule is sloppily applied, and I feel like making a case out of it, I'm usually successful. Naturally I would only press when it's in my favour ...

I've been involved in a couple of situations recently (in the realm of Thai entertainment law, specifically in ways the laws had been incorrectly applied to clubs with live music) where all it took was a call from a good lawyer pointing out the statutes concerned and the police acquiesced. Likewise I had a problem with Thai immigration in Chiang Saen once, during which one mobile call to a Thai lawyer friend cooled everything down immediately. So altho I'm pretty sanguine about Thai civil code in general, I think when push comes to shove you can, at least some of the time, successfly resort to the letter of the law. No guarantees but the legally informed expat will get further than someone who just leaves it up to fate ...

[Roger13]

**

[mrentoul]

I went on my own and have a great chat to the officials when submitting my application. They told me that the Thai test would be easy for me. It is a sign of respect to speak Thai, an a clear indication that you are a serious applicant.

Regarding thai language, immigration immediately started speaking in Thai once it was understood that I wanted to apply as a student

I enjoyed reading this thread for the comments on the Thai language. Now, I do not want to belittle anyone's achievements on that front. Learning a language is hard, especially if you are an adult.

However, reading this board sometimes I wonder if I live in a different place. I read these comments above and it seems you guys think it's a novelty to have a Thai speak to you in Thai.

In my experience, Thais will speak to a westerner whether or not he has a Bor 6 certificate. People need to speak, and speak they will, regardless of whether they know you are a whizz in their language.

Nor does someone need a certificate to speak well or understand what is going on. I know two guys who came here with next to no English, and had to learn Thai in a hurry simply to communicate basic needs (they had neither Thai nor English at the time, so were more ''mute'' than most).

Neither has studied Thai. Both can acquit themselves well in a conversation.

Furthermore - and here I may step on a few toes - I think it takes way longer than three years to become fluent in a foreign language.

I mention this because I have met a few people who graduated from university language courses. They were great at writing, and could read aloud, but mediocre (at best) at speaking and understanding. Some simply had no ''ear''.

Yet universities, some of which charge a fortune for language courses, promise students that at the end of three years they will be ''fluent''.

On this board a month or so ago I met a guy who was planning to take an eight-month university course in Thai, which promised similar results. His aim was to give lectures in Thai to Thai students by the following year.

''Fluent'' is a word I would use with great caution, especially with regards to something as huge as a language. Not only is the vocab huge, the grammar complicated, and pronunciation difficult, but cultural stuff underpins it. Those cultural experiences, as academics like to say, ''inform the meaning'' of the language.

Ask yourself this: do you know how many ways there are to ''thread a needle'' in Thai? Heaps! Do you know how each of those words differs from the other?

At a Thai language site the other day, I posted a short story from which the film Fan Chan was based. The story was not mine, of course, but I found I had to provide detailed notes explaining various references in the text to cultural things which you can't find in dictionaries - but which every Thai will know from his childhood.

Speaking of childhood, a Thai friend and I travelled by cab to a nightplace the other night. On the way he was talking to the driver about how the city had changed since his childhood. Now, few westerners can talk about such things because they haven't been here that long. Yet such knowledge and understandings are part of what makes a Thai ''fluent'' in his language.

You can't learn all that stuff overnight!

Thais are exposed to English for many years at school, and many still fail to master it. If it takes them that long, how is it westerners can learn their language in just nine months?

The answer, of course, is that they can't. Not even close. But that's not what the ''language industry'' is telling us.

[mrentoul]

I find Thai law interesting in itself, aside from how it might apply to me personally.

Like you, I am interested in Thai law.

One site where you will find lots of great stuff - especially on the webboard - is at

http://meechaithailand.com/ .

[samran]

''Fluent'' is a word I would use with great caution, especially with regards to something as huge as a language.

I totally agree.

Although I speak Thai really really really well (IMHO ;-) I never grew up here. Therefore I miss lots of cultural connotations and I think it is too much to claim I am fluent.

The funny thing is, I can have a great huge chat to someone in Thai about economic policy (cause that is my field), but I'll struggle to talk with a 3 year old in Thai kiddie speak (cause I never grew up here). And to be honest, not matter how long I live here, I think I will always struggle.