Applying For Resident Visa With Non Imm Ed Visa

[mrentoul]

Therefore I miss lots of cultural connotations and I think it is too much to claim I am fluent.

The funny thing is, I can have a great huge chat to someone in Thai about economic policy (cause that is my field), but I'll struggle to talk with a 3 year old in Thai kiddie speak (cause I never grew up here). And to be honest, not matter how long I live here, I think I will always struggle.

Thank you for being so honest. So few people I know here have made the effort to learn, so they pretend the language being spoken around their heads 24 hours a day actually isn't there.

The other group I meet are people who seem very aware of their achievements in this area, and are seldom prepared to admit that they speak any less fluently than a Thai - when, in most cases of course, that is ridiculous, and an insult to Thais.

It is almost as if westerners who come here feel they have to colonise everything, and when they run up against something as insurmountable as a new language (and as inescapable as Thai beyond Silom) they just bluff their way around it.

I like your point about your being able to speak well in your specialty area. Something similar happens to me - most of my conversations concern particular language areas such as my friends' relationship problems, and everyday life stuff such as paying bills.

I get tired of talking about their boyfriends and girlfriends. Sometimes I have to take myself off to new environments where I can stretch myself.

Over time your speaking experience broadens, but it takes a while before you start talking about navigating threads through needles (my oddball example from above), aerobics manoeuvres, or baking a cake.

Speaking of kiddy talk: slang is one area where language grows at a rapid rate. I challenge anyone here who says he is ''fluent'' to read ''Sexteen in Thailand'', for example (ghastly pink cover, in most books stores) and tell me you get the lot.

Watch Fan Chan without the subtitles, and tell me you took it all in, and that indeed your game to speak like that. Translate a technical or legal document from one language to the other and tell me it was a breeze.

In my view, learning a language is just a great experience. I don't need a certificate to tell me how important it is or how well I'm doing. And I'll never claim I'm fluent - no matter how good I get.

PS Speaking of cultural stuff, the children's series เมื่อคุณตาคุณยายยังเด็ก, also in bookstores, is a big help, though the language is tough.

[sjoca1]

Mrentoul, I think you may have misunderstood my comments on speaking Thai .i.e that immigration started speaking thai once they knew I was a student here and wanting to apply for P.R To the contrary, I believe that they switched to Thai to assess to what extent I was legit and as a way to test me. I have had this experience at the airport as well. Maybe cause I have many extensions on my student visa, but I am always questioned in thai as to what uni I go to etc. I believe they would probably get suspicious, if someone especially on an ED visa couldnt speak thai. Even though there are many international programs at unis that use English as a medium, do you think immigration know this? There is a general assumption by immigaration that anyone here on a student visa is only here for learning thai anyway. Like why would a farang come to Thailand to do an MBA in English?!!! even though there are some sad cases in this category...just check out Siam university!!

This was all that I meant!!

[mrentoul]

There is a general assumption by immigaration that anyone here on a student visa is only here for learning thai anyway. Like why would a farang come to Thailand to do an MBA in English?!!! even though there are some sad cases in this category...just check out Siam university

Thanks for your reply. I make a habit of misunderstanding other people's posts. Sorry.

You mentioned westerners studying here. I don't know many students here other than Thais. What is the ''student scene'' like if you are a westerner?

I have seen your comments elsewhere about farang kii nok. To what extent to westerners studying here make an attempt to fit in?

What do you think of them? How many are here to learn Thai, Thai cultural studies, history or whatever?

PM me if you like!

Michael

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I don't have indepth knowledge Michael, but I can say that farang student numbers are ever increasing at all sorts of universities. ANU and Griffith Uni, to name but two from Oz, have meaningful exchanges with the likes of Chula, Chiang Mai, Kasetsart. The education counsellor at the Oz Embassy, could bring you up to speed.

[mrentoul]

Thanks, Pat. Most of the westerners I bump into here are backpacker types who want to try teaching or who fancy their hand at writing (yes, really).

I drink close to one university, yet don't know of any farang students in the area.

I know a Thai teacher there. I must ask him if he knows any, and what they are like.

[Richard Hall]

In my view, learning a language is just a great experience. I don't need a certificate to tell me how important it is or how well I'm doing. And I'll never claim I'm fluent - no matter how good I get.

Dear Mrentoul,

why so pessimistic that you can not achieve to be fluent in Thai while this status can possibly reached in terms of western languages? I got the impression that you are indeed fluent in English and can well imagine from your previous posts that your knowledge of Thai is quite extensive too.

I can remember years ago people claimed that tonal languages such as Chinese (Thai) can not be learnt by western people which nowadays seems not to hold true anymore. Well, I guess no one dares to claim to be PERFECT in a language but if you interpret fluent as "being in the situation to communicate anything you like to say in a language even if you do not always know the "ideal" word but rather have to employ a descriptive pattern" I think you can consider yourself fluent. Look at those popular figures such as the singers "Kristine and Jonas" and the Australian English teacher "Andrew" which I personally consider to be fluent (not perfect) in Thai. With the right devotion, dilligence and talent one can surely master a forein language at astonishing levels that may even surpass the knowledge of the average native speaker.

Personally, I love to listen to the annual birthday speeches of HM the king. What a difference of using the Thai language! It appears to be a totally different language when comparing it to what you hear on the street or in the daily soap operas. Slang is surely not the best teacher for the language but actually can mess it up.

Mrentoul, have more confidence in yourself and if your level of Thai has reached the level of your English just award yourself for all those long years of learning by proudly claiming your speak the language fluently.

[samran]

Funny (and true) story...

I was sitting in a pub back in Melbourne with a couple of mates after just getting back from a year and bit in Thailand during the mid 90's where I had been been studying and then working for a economics and engineering counsulting firm, mainly translating thai to english.

So here I was at the pub, sitting there chatting away with my mates to a couple of English girls who had just spent 8 months in Thailand. Pretending I knew nothing about the place I asked them what it was like. They were telling me about how great the people were how facinating the culture was and how they had immersed themselves in Thailand, especially up in the hilltribe regions.

So, with my mates saying nothing, but with huge grins on their faces, I asked "so you speak a bit of Thai then??" This girl replied "yes...fluently".

Now, let me just stop you all here for a second. A bit of background: I grew up in Australia speaking English. I spoke Thai as well, but mainly to my grandma and aunties and uncles speaking non formal Thai (or gutter thai if you prefer). I had just returned from a year in thailand, 6 months or which was translating documents, where I had learnt my formal thai and to some extent, technical Thai.

On top of that, I am a person when it comes to the Thai language, who still (compared to the average thai) has a loooooooong way to go. So I can watch a current affairs show on Channel 11 here no worries, but watching a soap on channel 3 is still a bit of a struggle. I am pretty good a sucking up to authority now to get what i want, but I can also shout someone down in gutter thai pretty well too.

Back to the pub: So I said to her, "wow thats fantastic!" So I asked her something in Thai (I can't remember what I said, but it was polite). She looked at me confused. I asked her again in Thai...speaking louder and more slowly. Still no response. She looked even more confused and slowly began realising she had been set up from the start.

My mates started laughing their heads off. One of them mentioned that I was half Thai and she was full of "sh*t"

She screamed at me "you aren't Thai" trying to call my bluff blabbled something in what she called "thai". I had no clue what she said (perhaps she is like our current PM who only speak Chiang Mai thai properly...but I digress), I then pulled out some Thai ID and her face went white. My mates laughed even harder.

Needless to say, she got up and stormed off. It was a very very funny night!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

At least sixty per cent plus per cent of the posters here have English as their mother tounge. Many are inarticulate in that tongue.

[samran]

At least sixty per cent plus per cent of the posters here have English as their mother tounge. Many are inarticulate in that tongue.

The must all be economists.

[mrentoul]

Look at those popular figures such as the singers "Kristine and Jonas" and the Australian English teacher "Andrew" which I personally consider to be fluent (not perfect) in Thai

These folk are impressive, I agree. I read an interview in a Thai magazine with Christy Gibson (Christine) the other day. She knows Jonas, of course, and said that of the two of them, he speaks much more Thai than she does. She works with a charity and has just recorded her second album singing Luk Tung.

The interview was written out just as she said it. She is remarkably talented with the language, even if she is shy. She has been here since she was six, and I suspect having spent her childhood here and being educated here made a big difference.

She was asked about her being a westerner in a strange land, and I thought she handled it well. She bows her head when she goes past an elder, just as Thais do...though she says it's not an affectation but genuinely felt, and she wouldn't presume to claim she understood what it was really like to be Thai.

Back to your post, and thank you for your kind words. I like your definition of fluency - being able to communicate effectively even if you can't always find the ideal word. I can do that. I suspect many people can do that...but in my book it is not quite enough.

I take a much less liberal view of fluency, because like Christine to think there are some things that belong to a native speaker that no one else can take away (and I'm thinking of Thais here, rather than myself).

A Westerner who knows Thai and has been here a long time wrote to me last night (after I PMed him). I was busy talking in the posts above about how cultural meanings, childhood experiences and the like ''inform'' your understanding of a language and how well you use it.

I argued that no westerner can truly know what it is like to be Thai, so few westerners will ever be able to plumb the depths of his language to the same extent. In most cases he won't be able to use it as dextrously; he won't even sound the same.

I talked about how some westerners who come here behave as if they have to own and control the place - even a language that they could never truly hope to possess.

Well, this elicited a predictable response. At the risk of being unkind to the poster, he told me he reckoned he knew at least as much about Thai culture as many of the Thais he knew, and in some cases more. He was talking about Central Thailand, I guess, though he didn't say.

I am being invited to conclude, of course, that he encounters few if any cultural barriers in using the language; that he can hold his own in any company; that there is little, if anything, which he doesn't ''get''.

I told him by reply that I found his assertions about having mastered Thai culture hard to accept. After a night thinking about it, I want to put it more strongly now. My response is: bull!

I would like to invite anyone who thinks he can speak as well as a Thai to spend the night at my place with my Thai friends. They are just ordinary kids, they don't have much English, and I am sure they will be impressed.

Then I'd like to invite you to drink with an older friend of mine, someone who knows fluent English, Indian and Thai, and is a columnist for the Bangkok Post. He grew up here and I'd like to hear the two of you talk about your - err - childhood experiences of Bangkok. Can't quite do that? Never mind.

Bluff.

[mrentoul]

I spoke Thai as well, but mainly to my grandma and aunties and uncles speaking non formal Thai (or gutter thai if you prefer).

I like non-formal Thai, as you put it. The formal stuff can be very wordy. As for technical stuff - that can fill an entire dictionary.

You write well. I wish you'd come to the Bangkok Post. We need people with a sense of humour.

[mrentoul]

On top of that, I am a person when it comes to the Thai language, who still (compared to the average thai) has a loooooooong way to go.

How is it that an overseas-raised Thai can admit this much, that he still has a long way to go to catch up to the average Thai ... but the westerners I meet here just have to be ''fluent'', even after a mere three years of study?

Not only are they fluent, but they know more about Thai culture than Thais do themselves....or say they say.

I have a simple message for you guys.

You live in a different world. You live in the age of Empire...but it has passed you by!

I am tempted to tell my Thai friends that there are westerners here teaching Thais how to speak ... err... Thai.

I think that's just bizarre...no matter how good you think you are!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

At least sixty per cent plus per cent of the posters here have English as their mother tounge. Many are inarticulate in that tongue.

The must all be economists.

More likely to be politicians

[sabaijai]

Like you, I am interested in Thai law.

One site where you will find lots of great stuff - especially on the webboard - is at

http://meechaithailand.com/ .

Meechai's site's mainly a news digest, with Thai law only a minor component. But for those with no other resources, the law forum is better than nothing I suppose. Mostly what you get, though, are articles on politics, economics, business, sports, etc.

[mrentoul]

Meechai's site's mainly a news digest, with Thai law only a minor component

I like his forum. Judging by the number of posts to his site, from ordinary Thais wanting help with the law, so do Thais.

He and a bunch of others also write columns...on the law.

[marquess]

Has anyone successfully applied for PR having been a student? What would be the chances if you have done and MA and PhD here in Thailand?[/b]

[jstumbo]

Probably would have been better to start a new thread instead of bumping a 4+ year old thread.

As for your question, I do not know.

[wasabi]

Since posting I have been down to Suan Plu and can confirm that there is now a category for students to apply i.e people who have studied in thailand for an extended period of time. No w.p is required for this.

Regarding thai language, immigration immediately started speaking in Thai once it was understood that I wanted to apply as a student saying in thai that if I had been a student here for the last three years it would and is expected that one can speak Thai.

According to the guy at imm I spoke to, the B. 6 cert helps a lot. I also have a diploma in applied language in Thai from RMIT Melbourne which can be used as supporting documentation.

In all, after the talk and the information I was given, I find it hard to believe some of the posts regarding immigration. I think on the whole, they are pretty good but have to deal with a lot of farang Kii Nok.

Can you post any details about the requirements for a student of Thai language to apply? Also I am currently here on a Non Imm ED visa that must be renewed every 90 days. If I continually renew this for 3 years concurrently with studying Thai will I meet the three year requirement or do I need some type of visa that only needs to be renewed once a year.