Buddhist Monks Accepting Wads In Sealed Envelopes!

[rockyysdt]

I recall a Thai woman stuffing a sealed envelope with 1,000 baht of notes and placing it in the Monks alms bowl for an exorcism request.

It appeared quite clearly to me as a "fee for service" arrangement, without any kind of audit or record keeping in place.

Is this practice acceptable?

Does wrapping the money in an envelope make it acceptable?

Can the Monk use this money for his own purposes?

[sparebox2]

And what about 3% witholding tax?

[Brucenkhamen]

It's pretty common, but I've heard from stricter monks that allowing money to be placed near you in such a way it's obvious it's for you is a breach of vinaya, so it's never seemed right to me.

Monks are entitled to have money to look after their personal expenses, but a steward is supposed to control it so they don't have to handle it directly. If the monk gives his steward the unopened envelope then that's probably not a big deal.

[fabianfred]

The problem is that very few temples bother not handling money and so very few have a steward system in place....

The Ajarn Chah temples do this.

If one ordains at a temple without such a system and with all the other monks handling money it is very difficult.

As farang monks we still have to get our one year visas and runa bout getting signatures and paperwork beforehand which all requires the use of money. We still pay 1,900 baht for our visas and sometimes have to travel to BKK to get the correct paperwork. We still have to do 90 day reporting.

If we take the attitude that we allow ourselves to handle money but not amass it for our own private use...I think that is keeping more to the spirit if not the letter of the law.

Some monks do save to build houses for themselves or their parents and even expect to disrobe when they have enough to 'retire'.

[Xangsamhua]

Of course, sticking wads of cash in an envelope and giving it to a Buddhist monk is vulgar, but it's popular religion and popular religion is vulgar. People like that sort of thing, the same as they enjoy soap operas and making a lot of noise.

(Vulgar = (1) Deficient in taste, delicacy, or refinement. (2) Of or associated with the great masses of people; common. http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/vulgar)

As Fred says, not all monks buy into that vulgarity, but those who do seem to know what they're doing - exploit one's status and milk the community until it's time to go and spend the proceeds. That doesn't mean all monks or all lay people should be tarred with the same brush, and, again as Fred says, there are times when legitimate use of money may require a monk to handle it. It seems that the Ajarn Chah temples won't even countenance that (do their foreign monks take a handler when they go to Immigration?).

I know that the Asoke monks will not handle money at all. Not sure about Dhammakaya.

[prakhonchai nick]

Not wishing for anyone to be seen as vulgar, I keep as far away as humanly possible!

[Para]

I often receive the famous 'white envelope' on my Alms walk but its normally 20 or 50 BT.

When I stayed in Pattaya I noticed that the Monks only received money but where I am its 99% food.

Para

Edited March 23, 2012 by Para

[Brucenkhamen]

(do their foreign monks take a handler when they go to Immigration?).

I believe so, I certainly did when i was a monk. If somebody is going to drive you there they may as well carry the money.

[bankei]

The vinaya rules relate to handling gold and silver. Some monks consider paper money to not count. Others think they are allowed to possess money, but not physically touch it. Others don't possess it but have others possess it and then use it to make frequent purchases or international air travel.

I like Phra FabianFred's idea. It doesn't really matter if you touch it but you would be breaking the spirit of the teachings if you amassed wealth and got into a more business like arrangement of providing services for fees.

Incidently it would be very hard to find a monk willing to ordain you if you did not make the usual donation of about 2000B.

Bankei

[rockyysdt]

It sounds like the ideal trade with minimal overheads for tools.

Forget about what the Buddha was actually teaching.

One can either pursue the path as a lay person, or embrace Monkhood.

This is a very big step entailis much sacrifice and responsibility in many ways.

I wouldn't like to milk my position.

I think abusing ones position as a Monk can have profound impact on the paths of others and be far more serious than "taking that which does not belong to you".

Edited March 25, 2012 by rockyysdt

[khaowong1]

I often receive the famous 'white envelope' on my Alms walk but its normally 20 or 50 BT.

When I stayed in Pattaya I noticed that the Monks only received money but where I am its 99% food.

Para

Same where I live. 20 baht in an envelope while on alms round is about it. And I always give it to the young school boy who walks with me carrying a cloth bag to hold the food.

[Para]

It sounds like the ideal trade with minimal overheads for tools.

Forget about what the Buddha was actually teaching.

One can either pursue the path as a lay person, or embrace Monkhood.

This is a very big step entailis much sacrifice and responsibility in many ways.

I wouldn't like to milk my position.

I think abusing ones position as a Monk can have profound impact on the paths of others and be far more serious than "taking that which does not belong to you".

So if a layperson wishes to give something other than food for Alms its to be rejected? A Monk refusing Alms from someone stops them making merit when my baat is full I transfer some to a bag to allow others to make merit am I wrong?

Edited March 27, 2012 by Para

[fabianfred]

No...we are not going on alms-round to collect food....that is a consequence but not the real reaqson. We go to show compassion for all beings and provide them with the opportunity to make merit.

I carry several Furoshiki bags made from old robe cloth...which is stronger and looks better than a load of plastic bags. They help me seperate the stuff into different types.....rice, curries, fruit, soft bread and cakes, etc.

Banana leaf wrapped foods are often closed with a bamboo sliver which can puncture bags of curry or milk and is best kept seperate.

I often struggle back with my arms aching, and when a farang woman asked me once..."isn't your bowl heavy?' ..I replied...'how can it be heavy...it is filled with love..'

[Brucenkhamen]

So if a layperson wishes to give something other than food for Alms its to be rejected? A Monk refusing Alms from someone stops them making merit when my baat is full I transfer some to a bag to allow others to make merit am I wrong?

Yes, if a lay person wishes to give something that is not allowable, or is allowable but at a different time or if given a different way it should be rejected.

There is no merit in tempting a monk to break his training rules.

[rockyysdt]

I often receive the famous 'white envelope' on my Alms walk but its normally 20 or 50 BT.

When I stayed in Pattaya I noticed that the Monks only received money but where I am its 99% food.

Para

Same where I live. 20 baht in an envelope while on alms round is about it. And I always give it to the young school boy who walks with me carrying a cloth bag to hold the food.

Many, as you, are focused on the right path, and understand that in Buddhism, if it is as the Buddha taught, doing the wrong thing is either delusional or robbing yourself.

My concern is for the extremely poor who offer large amounts (wad in envelope) generously despite their parlous state.

I witnessed a very poor woman, living from day to day and relying on what is hunted or gathered from the fields, or grown in the rice paddies hand over a large sum to a head Monk.

To treat this as personal income is to disrespect poor working people.

Edited March 28, 2012 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

and when a farang woman asked me once..."isn't your bowl heavy?' ..I replied...'how can it be heavy...it is filled with love..'

Beautiful response, Fred!

[Tanaka]

Hmmm. There is, alledgely, a monk in northern Thailand who lives in 10 Mill Baht house. And another who drives a Bentley when not out begging. Maybe the same monk. They are parasites.

[Para]

My concern is for the extremely poor who offer large amounts (wad in envelope) generously despite their parlous state.

I witnessed a very poor woman, living from day to day and relying on what is hunted or gathered from the fields, or grown in the rice paddies hand over a large sum to a head Monk.

To treat this as personal income is to disrespect poor working people.

rockyysdt I fully agree with you on this point as its a shift from feeling the want to make merit to the need to make merit.

I am reading a VERY controversial book about Thailand and it quotes sadly how some Thai's look at the size of the offering reflecting in the amount of merit gained which is so obviously against everything taught buy Lord Buddha.

As with most things I feel its the intention of both the layperson AND Monk tthat determines the correctness of the offering.

[cardholder]

Hmmm. There is, alledgely, a monk in northern Thailand who lives in 10 Mill Baht house. And another who drives a Bentley when not out begging. Maybe the same monk. They are parasites.

Regrettably, this is an opinion that is all too easy to adopt - and not because of the 'top end' wealth indicated above.

Many of us have seen elderly, poor villagers give what they have not got because they want to make merit - or feel obliged to by the calls from the local wat. I can just about live with that because of the intent on the part of the donor - and it usually a small amount (maybe not for them).

What I find obscene is the clammer for 'face' by donating ridiculous sums of money - and invariably, parading around on a high chair on the back of a pick up whilst effecting said donation.

pathetic.

[hookedondhamma]

I often receive the famous 'white envelope' on my Alms walk but its normally 20 or 50 BT.

When I stayed in Pattaya I noticed that the Monks only received money but where I am its 99% food.

Para

Same where I live. 20 baht in an envelope while on alms round is about it. And I always give it to the young school boy who walks with me carrying a cloth bag to hold the food.

Same thing with me. If the dek wat isn't around then it goes to the donation box.

Been on here for a long time, never posted, but wanted to say it's wonderful to find other monks on this forum.

Edit*error*

Edited April 2, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[Para]

Been on here for a long time, never posted, but wanted to say it's wonderful to find other monks on this forum.

Glad you finally posted!