Cyanuric Acid

[JayBee]

I have a salt water generator. One pool company says I need cyuranic acid the other says no it is just a sales gimmick. All advice very welcome.

[gamini]

if you have a chlorinator then it is not necessary.

[pipo1000]

Cyuranic acid or stabilizer is needed in a salt water pool as otherwise the sun will break down the free chlorine too fast.

Cyuranic acid doesn't evaporate,similar to salt but it dissapears when your pool flows over.When using cyunaric acid,you will also have to buy test strips since a too high level will make your water toxic.

[PoolDoctor]

Many people don't understand this topic, so I will try to clear it here. Basically, there are two types of pool chlorine on the market - stabilized, and un-stabilized. A stabilized chlorine, is essentially chlorine that has had an external stabilizer added to it to prevent rapid breakdown in direct sunlight. Trichlorisocyuranic chlorine (90% strength) and Dichlorisocyuranic (60%) are two types of stabilized chlorine, available in either powder, granules, or erosion pucks. Tri-chlor is highly acidic, and we love when customers dump it directly into their pool, because we know we will get a re-grout job fairly quickly from that customer. If this is you, please send us your email.

Unstabilized chlorine is just the opposite. It is chlorine that will break down quickly in direct sunlight, and is the type of chlorine used for indoor pools obviously (no need to worry about sunlight). It is usually available in liquid form (10% strength). What people DONT know is that the chlorine produced by a salt water chlorine generator is un-stabilized. It is in gaseous form, and can be clearly seen while the pool is running by viewing the sight glass on the generator (it appears as a cloudy milky gas). If you look closely sometimes also, you will see champagne bubbles being emitted thru the pool floor returns. This is the chlorine gas. In order to prevent this gas from "flashing" off in 4-6 hours in sun light, an external stabilzer (cyuranic acid) is required. Without this sun-block, the chlorine levels will drop quickly in the pool, leaving it vulnerable to algae, water-borne pathogens, etc.

We like it when clients refuse to listen to us about CYA. Why? Because, without CYA in the water, clients are required to "up the output" on the generator simply to keep the pool from going green. This decreases the life expectancy of the generator massively, and we will get a new unit sale fairly quickly. As noted above, liquid chlorine systems (e.g., olympic pools) also require CYA supplementation. CYA also massively reduces operating costs, because when added to a pool, the chlorine level (actually ORP) is very easy to maintain with only small additions of chlorine.

Often, when installing a salt water system, the EXISTING pool water MIGHT already have sufficient CYA levels. Why? Because this is the remnants of the 90% tri-chlor that was being used previously in the pool. CYA does not evaporate, and can actually build up to a point where a partial drain is needed. In a new pool fill though, CYA is absolutely required. There are test strips on the market that can measure CYA levels easily.

I hope that this helps, I welcome any constructive comments.

Gil

[JayBee]

Thanks Gil. I believe your info matches the other info I have read online. I am just flabbergasted that none of the Thai companies I have contacted to do weekly pool maintenance know anything about adding stabilizer. Makes me want to smack my head on the wall and move back to usa!

If anyone knows of a good person or company for residential pool maintenance couple times a week that is available in the Bangkok sukhumvit (thong lor) area please send me a message.

Otherwise I think I will hire one of these joker Thai companies to do the basic maintenance and I will need to add and monitor the cyuranic acid myself. How often should I check the levels? Is there any basic rule on how many cups acid to add to raise the level a certain amount? I do worry about adding too much as I know that means needing to empty and refill. My pool is about 70-80q I think.

Thanks for the info

[pipo1000]

If you have a salt water chlorinator,as you say in the OP,there is basically almost no maintenance to be done other than vacuum the pool.Once the chlorinator is set to the correct level tand the cyanuric has been added to the correct amount it will not rise,rather decrease because your pool overflows from the rain.I think checking once a month will be more than sufficient.

If you have added too much,you will not need to empty your pool,but just release some of the water and add fresh water.

[PoolDoctor]

Thanks Gil. I believe your info matches the other info I have read online. I am just flabbergasted that none of the Thai companies I have contacted to do weekly pool maintenance know anything about adding stabilizer. Makes me want to smack my head on the wall and move back to usa!

If anyone knows of a good person or company for residential pool maintenance couple times a week that is available in the Bangkok sukhumvit (thong lor) area please send me a message.

Otherwise I think I will hire one of these joker Thai companies to do the basic maintenance and I will need to add and monitor the cyuranic acid myself. How often should I check the levels? Is there any basic rule on how many cups acid to add to raise the level a certain amount? I do worry about adding too much as I know that means needing to empty and refill. My pool is about 70-80q I think.

Thanks for the info

First, check the existing CYA level. Then, you can find an online calculator for raising the part per million (ppm) level of CYA to the proper level for that water volume. It only needs to be check roughly 4x per year, but it really depends on the ORP level of the water. If the ORP level is down constantly, either the CYA is low (chlorine is flashing off), the output level on the generator is low, or the salt unit is too small for that pool (e.g., it cannot physically produce enough chlorine to keep a sufficient ORP level. Technical note - ORP might be showing low if pH is high, because ORP is pH dependent (inversely related actually). Simply lowering pH to 7.2 from 8.0 might increase ORP by over 100 points.

It can get a bit technical, but some time spent on the internet will pay off greatly. Why dont Thai companies understand this? Easy answer - many people abhor paying for pool maintenance, and as a result look to spend 2,000 baht per month (3 x per week). What do they expect? Its the reason we have all but exited residential pool maintenance, save for some of our very long term clients who stuck with us during start up in 2004.

Gil

[WarpSpeed]

Many people don't understand this topic, so I will try to clear it here. Basically, there are two types of pool chlorine on the market - stabilized, and un-stabilized. A stabilized chlorine, is essentially chlorine that has had an external stabilizer added to it to prevent rapid breakdown in direct sunlight. Trichlorisocyuranic chlorine (90% strength) and Dichlorisocyuranic (60%) are two types of stabilized chlorine, available in either powder, granules, or erosion pucks. Tri-chlor is highly acidic, and we love when customers dump it directly into their pool, because we know we will get a re-grout job fairly quickly from that customer. If this is you, please send us your email.

Unstabilized chlorine is just the opposite. It is chlorine that will break down quickly in direct sunlight, and is the type of chlorine used for indoor pools obviously (no need to worry about sunlight). It is usually available in liquid form (10% strength). What people DONT know is that the chlorine produced by a salt water chlorine generator is un-stabilized. It is in gaseous form, and can be clearly seen while the pool is running by viewing the sight glass on the generator (it appears as a cloudy milky gas). If you look closely sometimes also, you will see champagne bubbles being emitted thru the pool floor returns. This is the chlorine gas. In order to prevent this gas from "flashing" off in 4-6 hours in sun light, an external stabilzer (cyuranic acid) is required. Without this sun-block, the chlorine levels will drop quickly in the pool, leaving it vulnerable to algae, water-borne pathogens, etc.

We like it when clients refuse to listen to us about CYA. Why? Because, without CYA in the water, clients are required to "up the output" on the generator simply to keep the pool from going green. This decreases the life expectancy of the generator massively, and we will get a new unit sale fairly quickly. As noted above, liquid chlorine systems (e.g., olympic pools) also require CYA supplementation. CYA also massively reduces operating costs, because when added to a pool, the chlorine level (actually ORP) is very easy to maintain with only small additions of chlorine.

Often, when installing a salt water system, the EXISTING pool water MIGHT already have sufficient CYA levels. Why? Because this is the remnants of the 90% tri-chlor that was being used previously in the pool. CYA does not evaporate, and can actually build up to a point where a partial drain is needed. In a new pool fill though, CYA is absolutely required. There are test strips on the market that can measure CYA levels easily.

I hope that this helps, I welcome any constructive comments.

Gil

Yep, well done, nothing to add..

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks Gil. I believe your info matches the other info I have read online. I am just flabbergasted that none of the Thai companies I have contacted to do weekly pool maintenance know anything about adding stabilizer. Makes me want to smack my head on the wall and move back to usa!

If anyone knows of a good person or company for residential pool maintenance couple times a week that is available in the Bangkok sukhumvit (thong lor) area please send me a message.

Otherwise I think I will hire one of these joker Thai companies to do the basic maintenance and I will need to add and monitor the cyuranic acid myself. How often should I check the levels? Is there any basic rule on how many cups acid to add to raise the level a certain amount? I do worry about adding too much as I know that means needing to empty and refill. My pool is about 70-80q I think.

Thanks for the info

You should not be flabbergasted at anything you run into here, especially where pools are concerned..

[WarpSpeed]

If you have a salt water chlorinator,as you say in the OP,there is basically almost no maintenance to be done other than vacuum the pool.Once the chlorinator is set to the correct level tand the cyanuric has been added to the correct amount it will not rise,rather decrease because your pool overflows from the rain.I think checking once a month will be more than sufficient.

If you have added too much,you will not need to empty your pool,but just release some of the water and add fresh water.

Depending on rain or refilling necessary, every 3 months is sufficient, presuming he began with 70 to 80 PPM saturation that is.

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks Gil. I believe your info matches the other info I have read online. I am just flabbergasted that none of the Thai companies I have contacted to do weekly pool maintenance know anything about adding stabilizer. Makes me want to smack my head on the wall and move back to usa!

If anyone knows of a good person or company for residential pool maintenance couple times a week that is available in the Bangkok sukhumvit (thong lor) area please send me a message.

Otherwise I think I will hire one of these joker Thai companies to do the basic maintenance and I will need to add and monitor the cyuranic acid myself. How often should I check the levels? Is there any basic rule on how many cups acid to add to raise the level a certain amount? I do worry about adding too much as I know that means needing to empty and refill. My pool is about 70-80q I think.

Thanks for the info

First, check the existing CYA level. Then, you can find an online calculator for raising the part per million (ppm) level of CYA to the proper level for that water volume. It only needs to be check roughly 4x per year, but it really depends on the ORP level of the water. If the ORP level is down constantly, either the CYA is low (chlorine is flashing off), the output level on the generator is low, or the salt unit is too small for that pool (e.g., it cannot physically produce enough chlorine to keep a sufficient ORP level. Technical note - ORP might be showing low if pH is high, because ORP is pH dependent (inversely related actually). Simply lowering pH to 7.2 from 8.0 might increase ORP by over 100 points.

It can get a bit technical, but some time spent on the internet will pay off greatly. Why dont Thai companies understand this? Easy answer - many people abhor paying for pool maintenance, and as a result look to spend 2,000 baht per month (3 x per week). What do they expect? Its the reason we have all but exited residential pool maintenance, save for some of our very long term clients who stuck with us during start up in 2004.

Gil

2 additional notes: 1) Salt level could also effect his Cl2 levels and 2) an aging cell would also produce less Cl2 as the plates begin to deteriorate..