Acupuncture

[Hermes100]

Please see james rhandi on youtube on this subject.

In my opinion, and that of vitualy all other's who have investigated this subject it is another complete fraud.

I would respectfully ask anyone to see this true evidence and then say that they refute it.

Please bear in mind that if one's takes it and feel's better it does not in any way prove- anything.

What has been proven is even in china it is used a suggestive medicine. in other words, top doctors at beijing say ( as they did to Rhandi " we know its fake, but it is cheap, and keeps people quiet")

Rather like horrorscope's ,etc. ( I would most definatly put all relgion's under this too)

[bunnaag]

Please see james rhandi on youtube on this subject.

In my opinion, and that of vitualy all other's who have investigated this subject it is another complete fraud.

I would respectfully ask anyone to see this true evidence and then say that they refute it.

Please bear in mind that if one's takes it and feel's better it does not in any way prove- anything.

What has been proven is even in china it is used a suggestive medicine. in other words, top doctors at beijing say ( as they did to Rhandi " we know its fake, but it is cheap, and keeps people quiet")

Rather like horrorscope's ,etc. ( I would most definatly put all relgion's under this too)

I do not think top doctors in Beijing say it is a fraud.Please name some.However they admit they do not know why in many cases ,especially when pain is treated,it works.Some are of the opinion it is a placebo effect.

[Deeral]

THere is a prolifertion of quack medicines in Thailand - those seeking such treatments as Acupuncture, Homeopathy and Chiropractic etc should research the scientific evidence into these which shows quite clearly that they are based on fallacious concepts and simply don't work.

[Bagwan]

THere is a prolifertion of quack medicines in Thailand - those seeking such treatments as Acupuncture, Homeopathy and Chiropractic etc should research the scientific evidence into these which shows quite clearly that they are based on fallacious concepts and simply don't work.

I am not in complete agreement. It is totally unproductive for those who think that alternative medicines actually work to decry a more scientific approach and vice versa. Such inflexibility in both camps prevents us moving forward in our understandings. Many of todays drugs are distillations from old native remedies so it would be unwise to write off what may be considered by some as old wives tales.

Follow the link below it is very interesting.

http://www.open2.net...pies/index.html

I am particularly taken with the idea that the mind can overtake many ailments. Take as an example seasickness. I have seen about half of a ship's company reduced to a state of misery during North Atlantic gales and a South China Sea typhoon. When asked by members of my Mess to what I attributed my immunity I said that I had convinced myself that the blood of Drake,Raleigh, Nelson and other great British naval heroes coursed through my veins and the notion of falling victim to a heavy sea was a total nonsense. I added that if the Russians or Chinese came over the horizon and started to lob large quantities of high explosive in our direction they'd soon forget about self indulgence and their training and drill would take over. Quite a few found that that thought gave them relief.

Talking with my doctor who specialises in critical care I said there must have been many times when she went off duty that she thought that a patient would have been relocated to the morgue before her next duty period, and she agreed. Some have a very strong will to survive that overcomes bad situations and medical science cannot explain this. Consider the effect of a placebo. Very often the unknowing patient believes that they are now going to get better and for no good medical reason they do. It seems that the relationship with whomsoever is treating them is a significant factor in their recovery. If somebody thinks that an ancient Chinese remedy will cure them they may recover but whether the remedy can take the credit is another matter entirely.

Some may swear by acupuncture but I am not one of that number. For a while I suffered lower back pain and the Royal Orthopaedic Hospital in the UK could find no physical cause, and apparently this is quite common. I was told that they had run out of ideas for any treatment and thought that the condition would eventually go away. I could either ignore the discomfort and pain in which case relief would occur sooner or sit around and moan in which case it would take much longer. Strength of m ind at work again? I consulted a Californian guy here in Pattaya who stuck needles in me on about a dozen occasions but to no avail. To be honest I didn't have a great deal of confidence in him or acupuncture. Soon afterwards a nice professional masseuse who had completed a two year course at Wat Pho cured me. She said that it would take about 8 weekly treatments and if I wasn't better after 10 then any extra treatment would be free of charge. I had confidence in her and the miracle occurred and have never had a problem since.

In the matter of quack medicines in general I believe that there are a lot of quack doctors around also. My wife and I consult with four doctors in whom we have total confidence and I believe it is no coincidence that three of them are female. The other is French.

[Deeral]

Your comments on this are completely without logic and unfortunately I haven't got time to show you how. But this is not a question of flexibility...it is pure and simple incontrovertible evidence - anecdotal evidence you cite is actually worthless as it is not verifiable or repeatable.

If I get time - and the inclination I'll get back to you, but in the meantime you really should familiarise yourself with how "medicines" and treatments are PROVED to be effective.

[Deeral]

Still short on time for this but one phrase really underlines the whole problem

" Such inflexibility in both camps " - there AREN"T 2 camps.

With medicine there is only one camp - the "does it work" camp.

any medicine or treatment needs to be proven - the ways to do this are not political or based on anything but pure logic - time and again treaments such as homeopathy, acupuncture, chiropractic have been tested and shown to show no efficacy other than placebo.

If you can find another camp then do tell\

[Travelish]

the problem is that most acupuncturists only treat the symptoms and not the origin of the disease.

The only good acupuncturist is the one that advises food as medicine, that is the real TCM.

[piki]

There's a korean doctor in Thonglo. He does very good acupuncture and other therapy.

Most of his patients come from oversea: china, taiwan, hongkong, indonesia, europe, korea etc

His address: 8th floor, Panjit Tower, Thonglo (sukhumvit 55)

It's next to Somerset Residence.

Telephone number:

027126861, 0819926642

Dr Lee

[radiola]

Kit jawet clinic

Thaiacupunture.com

Silom/Sathorn area

Perfect english ..

With 2000 THB gives you, acupunture, hipnosis, personalized meditation and reiki…all inclusive.

PERFECT ENGLISH????? This guy has the worse english ever, even local fruit seler has better english, and when he starts to talk, you only understand him 30%

I had to spell him the symptom, even then he did not understand and called another person. When he told me about the cost I said it is too expensive and he said something, mumbling in the phone and disconnected the phone

bad experience, will not go near this place

[fullwhenempty]

With medicine there is only one camp - the "does it work" camp.

Quite agree. That's why millions are seeking alternatives.

How do you define 'work'? If you want your condition managed, then pills 'work'. If you seek a cure, then they don't.

any medicine or treatment needs to be proven - the ways to do this are not political or based on anything but pure logic

Nonsense. It's impossible to test many treatments. As to your 'proof', even the Orthodox Doctors have little confidence..

'Why Most Published Research Findings Are False'

http://www.plosmedic...al.pmed.0020124

time and again treaments such as homeopathy, acupuncture, chiropractic have been tested and shown to show no efficacy other than placebo.

Then don't use them.

Have you researched the evidence from within those industries or only from an industry that has a history of crushing or rubbishing all competition? Or have you just been reading 'Quackwatch'? The fact is, some of these methods are supported by national governments and even if, at a minimum, they only work via 'Placebo', they still work. Which should be okay with you since you said 'there is only one camp - the "does it work" camp'.

Several members have reported positive results for Acupuncture. Including a friend of mine who was cured of Bell's Palsy. I also know people who have been helped by Chiro. Are you seriously suggesting it was 'all in the mind'?

I can accept what you say, to a certain extent, but in a different context. There are thousands of practitioners who are making a living taking one narrow aspect of a total healing system... like Traditional Chinese medicine, or Ayurveda... and becoming proficient in it. They have limited success, simply because it's not the whole system. But this is no different than going to your Doctor, receiving your shiney pill, then expecting it to help you, even though you carry on eating junk food and flopping on the couch. You don't just need the pill. You need the other lifestyle changes, too.

When it comes to the burden of proof, you appear to have a complete lack of understanding of how natural systems of healing work.

The Scientific model of 'proof' is generally dependent on one drug and one symptom, which can be modelled in a lab. Results are often biased and exaggerated (the difference between 'Relative' and 'Absolute' benefit). Traditional systems cannot be tested 'scientifically' because the one symptom-one drug model DOES NOT APPLY.

If I take a herbal remedy that has 20 or 30 herbs, all of which have multiple effects, how do I know which herb created which effect? If you then augment those herbs with stress management, hydrotherapy, acupuncture, massage, proper nutrition, Reiki, exercise, belief in a higher power and so on PLUS factor in the unique nature of the patient and the high chance of misdiagnosis, how on earth can you test what worked scientifically? It's impossible. There are far too many variables. You can monitor blood sugar, cholesterol, pain and other measures, which practitioners do.

Traditional systems HAVE been tested over thousands of years. It's called 'Trial and Error'. The same Trial and Error that Psychiatry uses. Have you ever seen a test for a lack of Serotonin? How about a test for the chemical imbalance in the brain? Ever seen one? No. So what does that say for scientific proof?

No two natural Doctors have the same methods and no two patients are alike. You simply cannot test this. Advocates and zealots of the Western model, use this to deceive. They can trot out the charge that 'there is no proof' and this is true. What they don't say is that proof is impossible. They then shut off any escape by saying 'Anecdotal evidence is not proof'. Thus, Natural medicine is placed in an impossible position.

This is clearly unfair and I think most of the public are tired of such negative tactics.

[MissesGrin]

I've always been curious about acupuncture but just the thought of pins and needles make me nervous. I don't even like getting shots, what more intentionally putting hundreds of pins into my skin.

[ashleygreer]

I came to know about this hospital. Refer this link http://www.bangkokhospital.com/index.php?p=en/acupuncture. May be it is useful for you.

[pumpum]

The acupuncturist at Kit Jawet is awesome and really helped me with my migraines. He is an older fellow - in his 70s - and no frills but what I would consider a master. He is also funny and has a nice bedside manner.

[pumpum]

PERFECT ENGLISH????? This guy has the worse english ever, even local fruit seler has better english, and when he starts to talk, you only understand him 30%

I had to spell him the symptom, even then he did not understand and called another person. When he told me about the cost I said it is too expensive and he said something, mumbling in the phone and disconnected the phone

bad experience, will not go near this place

You really missed out because, though his English isn't great (he is in his late 70s, cut him a break!), he is an absolute master and did, in two sessions, what it took my very experienced acupuncturist in the east coast of the United States, EIGHT WEEKS to do. If you would have listened a bit harder and been more polite, you may have understood that the reason he is more expensive, is because he cures the problems very quickly, with few visits, and still has to pay the rent.

[radiola]

PERFECT ENGLISH????? This guy has the worse english ever, even local fruit seler has better english, and when he starts to talk, you only understand him 30%

I had to spell him the symptom, even then he did not understand and called another person. When he told me about the cost I said it is too expensive and he said something, mumbling in the phone and disconnected the phone

bad experience, will not go near this place

You really missed out because, though his English isn't great (he is in his late 70s, cut him a break!), he is an absolute master and did, in two sessions, what it took my very experienced acupuncturist in the east coast of the United States, EIGHT WEEKS to do. If you would have listened a bit harder and been more polite, you may have understood that the reason he is more expensive, is because he cures the problems very quickly, with few visits, and still has to pay the rent.

sorry i do not believe that. He charges like 2000 per hour or something. Is his rent 40000 per month? I doubt it, if yes he can move to cheaper place.

I doubt there is much difference in acupuncuturists schooled in China, i think this guy is thai.

I used 2 chinese doctors, i have some improvement, not 100 % but still it helped a bit.

I doubt this guy is more masterful then other chonese docs working in bkk

[pumpum]

Radiola, you did not understand what I said.

He treats you very quickly and he explained to me that he charges a bit more because otherwise he would go broke...how is that so hard to understand? If he sees a patient two or three times he has to charge more than the folks who see them eight or ten times. Business-wise, it makes perfect sense to me.

Yes, you heard me correctly. He sees people for an average of TWO TO THREE SESSIONS before they get releif, in many cases. You can go somewhere else and pay a bit less but you will potentially be back for treatments for several weeks. Like I said, I went to a top acu in the east coast US and it took eight or ten weeks of going twice a week for her to control my migraines and migraine triggers. That is not unusual either, it is the normal length of time at most places. This guy, however, got me similar results in TWO TREATMENTS. And the proof is in the pudding because I can now expose myself to my usual food triggers and not have to run home from work puking my guts out with a screaming headache.

So, besides the fact that he is good, it is a better value all round. I am perfectly willing to pay 2,000 an hour to go twice rather than pay 1,000 to go eight or ten times. How can this not be clear to you?

Also he is indeed Chinese trained, though he is Thai. Why is that so hard to believe?

[pumpum]

Also, he never claimed to or did give me hypnosis so I have no idea where you came upon that idea.

[Dr D NZ]

Hi Ive been reading thaivisa for about a year now. This is my 1st time as a member on the forum. I am a NZ`er with a thai fiance. Im trying to find out about acupuncture registration in Thailand. I am a NZ govt. registered Acupuncturist with 30 + years experience, have an osteopath background(not registered),am a Medical herbalist, Naturpath etc. AND I am probably coming to Thailand (Issan) to live in the near future. Maybe Korat, Khon Khon ?? Medical doctors are registered in Thailand as acupuncturists and I have found another chinese thai assoc. HOW do I become registered??. Thank you. Dr D NZ

[cowslip]

Before spending your money. read this....

http://www.acuwatch.org/r

[griffer]

does it work or not..hmm?

while I was in UK I had a bad back and went to see a chiropractor....he said that the muscles in my lower back were in spasm ("guarding") and that tension was causing pain and also meant that he could not manipulate me. He tried massaging and a couple of other things, and then suggested acupuncture. A woman did it with about 12 needles spaced down my lower back.

Like most people I hate needles. For some reason this needles were nothing like the needles that they use for injections. She seemed to flick my back with her finger and slip in the tiny needle and it didn't hurt. The effect was amazing.

while in Bumrungrad I had a thing called Deep Needle Therapy in the cheek of my bum..this was also to release the spasms and painful muscles after a back operation .. this is totally different and hurts like hell..they seem to try and find some nerve node and twiddle with it with the needle....

but, as I say, I didn't find acupuncture at all painful....

[John 1]

Hi Ive been reading thaivisa for about a year now. This is my 1st time as a member on the forum. I am a NZ`er with a thai fiance. Im trying to find out about acupuncture registration in Thailand. I am a NZ govt. registered Acupuncturist with 30 + years experience, have an osteopath background(not registered),am a Medical herbalist, Naturpath etc. AND I am probably coming to Thailand (Issan) to live in the near future. Maybe Korat, Khon Khon ?? Medical doctors are registered in Thailand as acupuncturists and I have found another chinese thai assoc. HOW do I become registered??. Thank you. Dr D NZ

Don't quote me but I think it's impossible for you to be registered to do this in Thailand legally. What I would do is just work out of home by word of mouth which is illegal but so what.. If you do come to Issan pm me and I might need a consultation if I can't get my present problem on the mend.

[daiwill60]

I have used acupuncture here in the states to stop smoking. what do others go to the acupuncturist for? Just curious for the future.

Used to have it back home in my local hospital for neck and back pain , brilliant

[jacobpitt]

No, i don't know Dr. Manee. But accupunture is best for body.

[TommyTucker]

Try this establishment, full of Thai and Chinese, very good, very clean

[wilcopops]

Why do they alllow these threads to continue? Which kind of acupuncture do you want?

[OLDAUSSIE]

I have a back problem with the Sciatic nerve. Any member here had experience with Acupuncture for this problem?

I did read about Nigel in Pattaya. Anyone have his phone number?

Thanks in advance.

[wilcopops]

Try researching acupuncture before you shell out....it has been shown time and again to have no more effect than placebo.

[sinbin]

Try researching acupuncture before you shell out....it has been shown time and again to have no more effect than placebo.

If it's a 'placebo' then it's okay by me as I find it works to clear my headache after a Migraine attack. It also seems to reduce the amount of attacks I have. Only 400 Baht a session, well worth it.

[wilcopops]

Try researching acupuncture before you shell out....it has been shown time and again to have no more effect than placebo.

If it's a 'placebo' then it's okay by me as I find it works to clear my headache after a Migraine attack. It also seems to reduce the amount of attacks I have. Only 400 Baht a session, well worth it.

You are probably mixing association with cause. i.e. Migraines clear up after a period anyway - so you have your acupuncture and by the time you've done that your migraine would have cleared up anyway.

There is no evidence that acupuncture actually works. It has also been shown that not only do acupuncturists not agree on where you should stick the needles, but where you stick them makes no difference.

There are also some risks which you might want to look into before you let someone stick needles into you again.

[sinbin]

I accept Migraines clear themselves after a perion of time. Mine last about an hour in which my vision goes. Then comes the headache. That's what I have the acupuncture for. I haven't really found anything that helps medication wise for the headache. Acupuncture did/does. And since I started acupuncture my bouts have become more spread out. At 400 Baht for an hour session once a month, in something I find does work, then I'll carry on. Thanks for your concern.

Edited December 8, 2013 by sinbin