English Language Arrogance

[NewlyMintedThai]

No interest in learning the local language?

Why bother?

In government offices in the UK they now have Urdu, Hindi, Polish and Serbo Croat services....

I think Thailand should follow suit.

In 10 years of living in London, I don't think I saw many "English" natives working in government offices. Best one was the Visa department in Croydon, where I saw narry an English face!

So the notion that you can never be truly "English" if you are from a different race is no different from people who say that Thais will never accept a Thai national of another race.

[BookMan]

I guess most of the gentlemen on this board won't agree, but isn't English a modern, simplified Latin after all ?

No.......the root of the language as we now know it came from the Germanic population explosion which resulted in invasion a vast intake of Germanic speakers into the country during the Dark Ages, the Dark Ages being when the Romans had retreated, taking their middle class clerks and officers with them, and England fell into being a divided uneducated nation again.

The Germans interbred with the Angles, the native English, and brought a lot of their language with them as did the Celts and Gaels of the Western seaboard, and the Vikings on both the Western seaboard and Eastern seaboard.

At this time Latin was the reserve of the Clergy, and they jealously guarded it. The populace would turn up at church on a Sunday and not have a clue what was being said. It was a very clever control mechanism that was undone by the invention of the printing press.

French became the primary language after the Norman ( Viking French ) invasion and was the language of government for about two hundred years, up until the renaissance of the ancient Anglo Saxon language under the supervision of most famously Henry Viii, who used this renaissance to instil a sense of Nation in England during his battle with Rome.

So English is far from simplified Latin, it's greatest strength is that it has the ability to absorb influences from all cultures, obviously including Latin, but it's not simplified Latin. It's the Heinz 57 of languages and all the more beautiful for it.

You are a Well of information Blether.

I keep getting told I've got too much time on my hands

jeez... Having too much time on your hands is hardly a negative. I wish i had more of it.

[Sing_Sling]

English is the world language. Lucky Brits and Yankees.

....

The Germans lost the war

.....

The first vote in the house after the American Declaration of Independence was to choose what language was to be the official language of the new American state.

English won by one vote over German.

In the context of the last century probably one of the most historically significant political decisions of the last few hundred years.

English is the world language. Lucky Brits and Yankees.

....

The Germans lost the war

.....

The first vote in the house after the American Declaration of Independence was to choose what language was to be the official language of the new American state.

English won by one vote over German.

In the context of the last century probably one of the most historically significant political decisions of the last few hundred years.

darn, there you go - ruining things for the bigots out there by introducing facts . . .

[kerryk]

English is the world language. Lucky Brits and Yankees.

....

The Germans lost the war

.....

The first vote in the house after the American Declaration of Independence was to choose what language was to be the official language of the new American state.

English won by one vote over German.

In the context of the last century probably one of the most historically significant political decisions of the last few hundred years.

This is an urban legend. You can get the real story if you google German language lost by one vote or English only vote 1795. The so-called German vote did not take place in 1776, and it had nothing to do with privileging German over English. The legend that it did, which has gone around since at least the 1850s, was spread initially by propagandists celebrating German contributions to American culture.

On January 13, 1795, Congress considered a proposal, not to give German any official status, but merely to print the federal laws in German as well as English. During the debate, a motion to adjourn failed by one vote. The final vote rejecting the translation of federal laws, which took place one month later, is not recorded.

[henryalleman]

Isn't strange that at the moment the Americans fought their war of independence the language spoken at the English royal court was..... German, this only changed when Queen Victoria was at the age of 3 forbidden to speak German, she could still read en write it but not allowed to speak it. But she was all her youth surrounded by Native German speakers. That's why the rumour go's that her English language skills were far from perfect.

Wen she married prince Albert at the age of 18, the German language was used again in the family, she spoke also German with her Children. The use of German language in the royal family was going on till Georges V. Its also then that they changed their German family name name into Windsor. Because they Hitler came to power and it would have harmed their PR to keep it.

BTW English has not yet replaced French as the lingua franca in diplomacy, and this is absolutely so in Europe.

Ofcourse this is all

[Sing_Sling]

I still prefer the initial explanation - it's more fun and suited the discussion

[theblether]

Isn't strange that at the moment the Americans fought their war of independence the language spoken at the English royal court was..... German, this only changed when Queen Victoria was at the age of 3 forbidden to speak German, she could still read en write it but not allowed to speak it. But she was all her youth surrounded by Native German speakers. That's why the rumour go's that her English language skills were far from perfect.

Wen she married prince Albert at the age of 18, the German language was used again in the family, she spoke also German with her Children. The use of German language in the royal family was going on till Georges V. Its also then that they changed their German family name name into Windsor. Because they Hitler came to power and it would have harmed their PR to keep it.

BTW English has not yet replaced French as the lingua franca in diplomacy, and this is absolutely so in Europe.

Ofcourse this is all

I look forward to the day that a thread stays on topic

[mackes]

I suppose that one answer to the question I actually asked out of a total of 13 answers isn't too bad. It doesn't say much for English comprehension though

Excused as I am from this debate, I must interject to say that Engiish is now the World language. There are 250 million Chinese learning it, on top of 1 billion Indians that speak it, and that is before you start tacking the traditional English speaking nations.

English language skills are highly desirable, if not essential for international business. People have to be able to communicate.

The question at hand is should a BTS guard be able to speak English? I say yes, there are so many tourists of all nationalities pouring through Bangkok every day it would be ridiculous to expect them to speak Thai. It is imperitave for safety reasons that BTS personnel should be decent at English.

I would also point out that many Asians from other countries and non native English speakers rely upon English in Thailand too. Its not arrogance, it's essential for communication.

Should every Thai be fluent in English? No, should people dealing with foreign nationals every day? Yes.

As the Japanese say, the most important language to speak is the customers language.

Its not arrogance, its reality. Maybe we expat types forget the vast majority of foreign visitors to Thailand are short term visitors.

Absolutely on the spot Theblether!

I am Swedish and we don't expect anyone speak Swedish when traveling (and no one other then Swedes ever does). But we apprixiate very much when foreigners come to Sweden and try! To dedicate time to learn is a sign of respect and caring. And I'm sure the Thai's feel the same.

[theblether]

I suppose that one answer to the question I actually asked out of a total of 13 answers isn't too bad. It doesn't say much for English comprehension though

Excused as I am from this debate, I must interject to say that Engiish is now the World language. There are 250 million Chinese learning it, on top of 1 billion Indians that speak it, and that is before you start tacking the traditional English speaking nations.

English language skills are highly desirable, if not essential for international business. People have to be able to communicate.

The question at hand is should a BTS guard be able to speak English? I say yes, there are so many tourists of all nationalities pouring through Bangkok every day it would be ridiculous to expect them to speak Thai. It is imperitave for safety reasons that BTS personnel should be decent at English.

I would also point out that many Asians from other countries and non native English speakers rely upon English in Thailand too. Its not arrogance, it's essential for communication.

Should every Thai be fluent in English? No, should people dealing with foreign nationals every day? Yes.

As the Japanese say, the most important language to speak is the customers language.

Its not arrogance, its reality. Maybe we expat types forget the vast majority of foreign visitors to Thailand are short term visitors.

Absolutely on the spot Theblether!

I am Swedish and we don't expect anyone speak Swedish when traveling (and no one other then Swedes ever does). But we apprixiate very much when foreigners come to Sweden and try! To dedicate time to learn is a sign of respect and caring. And I'm sure the Thai's feel the same.

You should have a word with endure......he gave me into trouble for not answering the question

Anyway, you should try speaking Glaswegian in deepest, darkest China.......now that is a linguistic adventure

[sbk]

English is the world language. Lucky Brits and Yankees.

....

The Germans lost the war

.....

The first vote in the house after the American Declaration of Independence was to choose what language was to be the official language of the new American state.

English won by one vote over German.

In the context of the last century probably one of the most historically significant political decisions of the last few hundred years.

This is an urban legend. You can get the real story if you google German language lost by one vote or English only vote 1795. The so-called German vote did not take place in 1776, and it had nothing to do with privileging German over English. The legend that it did, which has gone around since at least the 1850s, was spread initially by propagandists celebrating German contributions to American culture.

On January 13, 1795, Congress considered a proposal, not to give German any official status, but merely to print the federal laws in German as well as English. During the debate, a motion to adjourn failed by one vote. The final vote rejecting the translation of federal laws, which took place one month later, is not recorded.

Indeed it is total fiction, sorry GH. The US has no official language even to this day.

But regardless, the idea that everyone else speaks English is, I can assure you, a myth. As stated earlier, go to Japan and attempt to communicate, sure they all learn it but most cannot communicate in it.

[Bagwan]

As for the BTS guard, what sort of English comprehension would I expect ... not much.

If I was told by the guard 'no, can not' and he pointed to the balloons, I would be fairly comfortable with that as an understandable instruction. But I don't want to talk about there, in this thread.

We are very lucky that English is indeed the world acceptable language.

Maybe also because the UK is an island nation, same as Australia and New Zealand, we've had little need, until modern travel, to learn other languages.

Where the likes the Dutch, regularly speak 3 or 4 languages.

My Finnish friend spoke 5 languages ... because she had to.

Could Thailand improve it's customer service interface with more English being spoken by those who had a job with a strong tourism flavour ... sure.

But there certainly would be a difference between the level of English language required to give clear and understandable instructions to customers by a BTS guard then that required by the same BTS guard to debate the intricacies with the man why he could not bring the balloons onto the train.

I don't think that luck had a lot to do with it. English was exported and taken along by explorers, occupying armies and colonisers. Other agents for the widespread use of English are the rich culture of literature, films, TV series, live theatre, pop music and sport, not forgetting technology.

Being an island race hasn't prevented quite a few words from other countries being introduced and accepted into the English language recently or indeed over the centuries.

I have made no conscious effort to acquire my smattering of Thai. I see no lasting value in making such an effort. Better that I spend what time I have left teaching the youngsters, and others willing to learn, how to speak, read and write English and then a few other subjects. Why should I make the effort, spend the money and then snuff it? I won't be meeting Buddha will I? And if there is a God it is odds on that he speaks English. HE would know that that makes sense.

For what is is worth, some acedemic guru prophesied a month or two ago that in about 50 years therer will be only 3 languages in common use. English, Spanish and Mandarin.

[endure]

And in the UK a little bit of Urdu and Hindi?

When there is a business in any country and a sizable customer base speaks English, not having at least one English speaker available is just poor business. Yes I am a stupid American but do speak English, Spanish, French, Tagolog, and a little Waray (wife's philippine dialect) and a smattering of Thai.

So I presume in most shops in the US they understand and speak Spanish

A large proportion oif the corner shops in the UK are owned by Urdu and Hindi speakers. You know, those lazy immigrants who open up at 5am and stay open till 11pm 7 days a week.

[AbeSurd]

Most of the posts here seem to concentrate on the virtues or otherwise of being able to SPEAK Thai in Thailand.

That's barely half the story.

What about the virtues (or otherwise) of overcoming the far greater challenge of being able to UNDERSTAND Thai?

Without the ability to UNDERSTAND Thai we have little idea of what's being said around us. Yet many expats (including myself) get by for years, even decades, in this parlous state.

It's more than a little strange.

Or perhaps we're hoping that quite soon, in this supposedly English-speaking world to be, that Thais will switch to English when they speak to each other?

You know that isn't going to happen any decade soon.

It's more than a little strange.

[brit1984]

For what is is worth, some acedemic guru prophesied a month or two ago that in about 50 years therer will be only 3 languages in common use. English, Spanish and Mandarin.

Was that one of the same academic gurus who foresaw the apocalypse caused by the millennium bug?

[MAJIC]

If it wasn't for the English speaking people of the world half the world would now be speaking only German and the other half would be speaking Japanese..

You would not be allowed to speak against this and all books in any other language would by now have been burnt.

PS The English language has more words than any other language; many of the words have come from other languages

And what poetry and prose can those words produce.

Take for instance Betjeman's simple line.'Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough;it isn't fit for humans now'.

French comes second with only one third of the number of words.

I am not 'arrogant' about the fact I speak only English.I have tried many times to learn other languages and fail miserably.

Prove my point about arrogance and not willing to learn other languages. Its not like it comes easy to others they just have more willpower then you i guess.

You also seem to forget that the Russians did their share to defeat the Germans, arrogance all the way.

Btw, hadn't Sir Francis Drake's fleet defeated the Spanish armada a few centuries ago, we would be all dancing the flamengo by now

Seriously, English is a beautiful language, and recently i was surprised to find out that is also more accurate than Italian in some specific field.

Also i heard than Thai surgeons communicate in English while performing operations, just to avoid create confusion..Can anyone confirm ?

I don't know about that,but English is such a huge flexible language,that can go into much finer detail than other more blunt and coarser languages,even on TV,those that only have a basic understanding of English can still make themselves understood.

[cooked]

i learnt long ago that speaking the same language as someone doesn't necessarily mean that you can communicate with them. Anybody that got married can confirm this.

[Jingthing]

For what is is worth, some acedemic guru prophesied a month or two ago that in about 50 years therer will be only 3 languages in common use. English, Spanish and Mandarin.

Was that one of the same academic gurus who foresaw the apocalypse caused by the millennium bug?

If by common use, the meaning is languages that are international communication languages like English, English and Spanish make sense, but I just can't see Mandarin ever competing with English in that way even given the obvious rise of China. Thai language for the ... Thais. Edited March 25, 2012 by Jingthing

[Beetlejuice]

English is the world language. Lucky Brits and Yankees.

....

The Germans lost the war

.....

The first vote in the house after the American Declaration of Independence was to choose what language was to be the official language of the new American state.

English won by one vote over German.

In the context of the last century probably one of the most historically significant political decisions of the last few hundred years.

This is an urban legend. You can get the real story if you google German language lost by one vote or English only vote 1795. The so-called German vote did not take place in 1776, and it had nothing to do with privileging German over English. The legend that it did, which has gone around since at least the 1850s, was spread initially by propagandists celebrating German contributions to American culture.

On January 13, 1795, Congress considered a proposal, not to give German any official status, but merely to print the federal laws in German as well as English. During the debate, a motion to adjourn failed by one vote. The final vote rejecting the translation of federal laws, which took place one month later, is not recorded.

Indeed it is total fiction, sorry GH. The US has no official language even to this day.

But regardless, the idea that everyone else speaks English is, I can assure you, a myth. As stated earlier, go to Japan and attempt to communicate, sure they all learn it but most cannot communicate in it.

I am half English, half American. The technical term is a Yanker.

When I am in Thailand and communicating with other native English speaking farangs, I really don’t view them as being American or English or Canadian, Australian and so on. To me it`s all the same and it means nothing.

Strangely, when I have tried to speak with other farangs and they don’t speak English, it has come as a bit of a surprise, because I don’t know why, but I mostly assume that every farang will speak English. Maybe it`s because we all look of the same race and find it difficult to separate the cultural and language differences between us? I think that pertains to many Thais also, that all farangs are one of the same.

At other times when I have begun a conversation with some Thais, a few have replied in almost Oxford English and this has also taken me by surprise because it was unexpected.

Some may call this racist, but it`s not. I suppose like myself many of us try to assume things by appearances, but at the end of the day, what difference does it make? Maybe it`s because the old prejudices die-hard?

[hellodolly]

Most of the posts here seem to concentrate on the virtues or otherwise of being able to SPEAK Thai in Thailand.

That's barely half the story.

What about the virtues (or otherwise) of overcoming the far greater challenge of being able to UNDERSTAND Thai?

Without the ability to UNDERSTAND Thai we have little idea of what's being said around us. Yet many expats (including myself) get by for years, even decades, in this parlous state.

It's more than a little strange.

Or perhaps we're hoping that quite soon, in this supposedly English-speaking world to be, that Thais will switch to English when they speak to each other?

You know that isn't going to happen any decade soon.

It's more than a little strange.

How true it is I have a friend who knows the Thai word but makes a mess of it because he thinks the tones don't count and the Thais have the same values as the farongs.

I knew a man many years ago who could speak four different languages and he told me you really cant speak a foreign language unless you understand the culture.

[hellodolly]

i learnt long ago that speaking the same language as someone doesn't necessarily mean that you can communicate with them. Anybody that got married can confirm this.

Last summer we were in Siem Reap and had a driver who could speak English. Problem was he understood very little of it. To listen to him talk you would think he spoke decent English but to ask him a question he would just get confused.

[farang000999]

As long as I can remember the general consensus off opinion on TV is English should be mandatory in Thai schools.

Also the opinion of the governments of Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Korea, insert other first world countries here.

I am not saying this out of arrogance, just common sense.

[David48]

I am half English, half American. The technical term is a Yanker.

<snip>

Maybe Beetlejuice is using an example why English remains a 'living' language.

But could there be a better descriptive adjective then Yanker for Beetlejuice?

Edit:-

A lot of are half something / half something else.

Sing_Sling ... you have a diverse ethnic background (I think) ... so an accurate descriptor for you?

Let's not be nasty though.

Edited March 25, 2012 by David48

[AbeSurd]

I knew a man many years ago who could speak four different languages and he told me you really cant speak a foreign language unless you understand the culture.

I think that's generally true. But of course you'll never really understand a culture until you understand the language. The two go hand in hand. Without understanding the language all you'll ever have is an impression of the culture.

One thing I'd particularly love to be able to understand is the news - as reported in Thai.

[h90]

I am half English, half American. The technical term is a Yanker.

When I am in Thailand and communicating with other native English speaking farangs, I really don’t view them as being American or English or Canadian, Australian and so on. To me it`s all the same and it means nothing.

Strangely, when I have tried to speak with other farangs and they don’t speak English, it has come as a bit of a surprise, because I don’t know why, but I mostly assume that every farang will speak English. Maybe it`s because we all look of the same race and find it difficult to separate the cultural and language differences between us? I think that pertains to many Thais also, that all farangs are one of the same.

At other times when I have begun a conversation with some Thais, a few have replied in almost Oxford English and this has also taken me by surprise because it was unexpected.

Some may call this racist, but it`s not. I suppose like myself many of us try to assume things by appearances, but at the end of the day, what difference does it make? Maybe it`s because the old prejudices die-hard?

Half American: American Indian?

All the other Americans are English, German, Spanish, etc etc....

[geriatrickid]

I note your comment;

English speaking ability in Thailand is a sign of class. It means that the parents of children who can speak English could afford to send their children to good schools so they could speak English. And like the German example, people in Thailand who know how to speak English relish the opportunity to speak it with a native English speaker because the opportunity does not present itself very often..so don't feel bad about using English in Thailand. Like anyone else, Thais also want to practice what they learned in school with a native English speaker.

And what of the entertainment sector? I was having a discussion with an experienced bar girl and she was proficient in the English language. In this case, she was sufficiently skilled to follow my discussion of the cervical cancer therapy she was undergoing. I would have not considered the woman of a good family nor of good social standing and yet she was able to hold an intelligent conversation with me as I mapped out what was going on. The only area where she demonstrated tinglish was her term "pussy cancer'. (BTW, she is in remission and reported in good health for a 38 year old female employed since the age of 17 in the trade.)

Not trying to embarrass you or cause you grief, but there is a demographic slice of Thais that are functionally literate in English and that are not the type I would bring home to Sunday dinner to meet the 'rents.

Edited March 26, 2012 by geriatrickid

[keestha]

It is a pity that the spelling of the uncontestable world language is a regular horrorshow.

I'll recite part of a poem which revolves around this theme:

Dear creature in creation,

studying English pronounciation

I'll keep you, Susy, busy

make your head with heat feel dizzy

[geriatrickid]

I am half English, half American. The technical term is a Yanker.

When I am in Thailand and communicating with other native English speaking farangs, I really don’t view them as being American or English or Canadian, Australian and so on. To me it`s all the same and it means nothing.

Strangely, when I have tried to speak with other farangs and they don’t speak English, it has come as a bit of a surprise, because I don’t know why, but I mostly assume that every farang will speak English. Maybe it`s because we all look of the same race and find it difficult to separate the cultural and language differences between us? I think that pertains to many Thais also, that all farangs are one of the same.

At other times when I have begun a conversation with some Thais, a few have replied in almost Oxford English and this has also taken me by surprise because it was unexpected.

Some may call this racist, but it`s not. I suppose like myself many of us try to assume things by appearances, but at the end of the day, what difference does it make? Maybe it`s because the old prejudices die-hard?

Typically, the foreigners with no English skills are Italians, Russians and French. Then there are the mainland Chinese, Taiwanese, and Koreans. It comes as no surprise then that the aforementioned groups are often the butt of many caustic comments, and I think it stems form other foreigners not being able to communicate with them, and not because they are inherently bad.

Edited March 26, 2012 by geriatrickid

[h90]

I am half English, half American. The technical term is a Yanker.

When I am in Thailand and communicating with other native English speaking farangs, I really don’t view them as being American or English or Canadian, Australian and so on. To me it`s all the same and it means nothing.

Strangely, when I have tried to speak with other farangs and they don’t speak English, it has come as a bit of a surprise, because I don’t know why, but I mostly assume that every farang will speak English. Maybe it`s because we all look of the same race and find it difficult to separate the cultural and language differences between us? I think that pertains to many Thais also, that all farangs are one of the same.

At other times when I have begun a conversation with some Thais, a few have replied in almost Oxford English and this has also taken me by surprise because it was unexpected.

Some may call this racist, but it`s not. I suppose like myself many of us try to assume things by appearances, but at the end of the day, what difference does it make? Maybe it`s because the old prejudices die-hard?

Typically, the foreigners with no English skills are Italians, Russians and French. Then there are the mainland Chinese, Taiwanese, and Koreans. It comes as no surprise then that the aforementioned groups are often the butt of many caustic comments, and I think it stems form other foreigners not being able to communicate with them, and not ebcause they are inherently bad.

Spanish you forgot....

Italian, French and Spanish had their empires and recognize slow that they aren't the most important anymore. But it improves fast.

Often Chinese and many other East Europeans had to learn Russian in school. But Russian is super difficult and many were against Russia and didn't want to learn it. Now they all learn English and 20-30 years these countries are fluent in English.

[bunta71]

English is the world language. Lucky Brits and Yankees.

....

The Germans lost the war

.....

The first vote in the house after the American Declaration of Independence was to choose what language was to be the official language of the new American state.

English won by one vote over German.

In the context of the last century probably one of the most historically significant political decisions of the last few hundred years.

If true that was a good decision. Otherwise no one would have been able to communicate in German except that guy who was the first German baker in America, and he would have to talk to himself.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

If poor people were properly taught (anything but focus here on) English in school, their prospects of getting decent jobs would be much improved, and the country as a whole would become more economically competitive, especially in the light of ASEAN integration 2015.

However all the hi-so's who pretend they can speak English would be most embarrassed if their serfs found out, so of course it won't happen.