Racism Against Farangs

[connda]

Me too, except to add just one thing...

Dear OP,

I am sorry if I (or other posters) were a bit harsh on this thread. I think your initial post was just asking to be ripped apart. I assume you now realise you are not a victim of racism, and I hope you are happy about that.

I also hope our paths meet again on TV as my view on life is very different to yours, which could make for some interesting debate and humorous banter.

Yours sincerely, brit1984

I think you should look into your own self, as to why you need to be in such denial

What is so extraordinary about someone experiencing racist ?

In every country you have people thinking that foreigners should not come to their land.

Why would Thailand be THE exception.

Thai people are just like everywhere.

You are not in Lalaland.

Deal with it

I am disappointed you did not accept my apology but would like to wish you good luck for the future

Dear brit1984,

Sorry you just had your head taken off. When I read your post, I though it was one of the more level-headed, genuinely compassionate, and supporting posts that I've read in this thread.

I've had similar situations. I've offered food to hungry soi dogs before, only to have them bare their fangs and growl. It's best to leave them be. There are hungry soi dogs everywhere. It's sad when they snap at you when you're only trying to help. But many others will take the food, and be your friend. But again...sadly not all.

Hopefully one bad experience will not put you off.

Sincerely,

connda

[brit1984]

Me too, except to add just one thing...

Dear OP,

I am sorry if I (or other posters) were a bit harsh on this thread. I think your initial post was just asking to be ripped apart. I assume you now realise you are not a victim of racism, and I hope you are happy about that.

I also hope our paths meet again on TV as my view on life is very different to yours, which could make for some interesting debate and humorous banter.

Yours sincerely, brit1984

I think you should look into your own self, as to why you need to be in such denial

What is so extraordinary about someone experiencing racist ?

In every country you have people thinking that foreigners should not come to their land.

Why would Thailand be THE exception.

Thai people are just like everywhere.

You are not in Lalaland.

Deal with it

I am disappointed you did not accept my apology but would like to wish you good luck for the future

Dear brit1984,

Sorry you just had your head taken off. When I read your post, I though it was one of the more level-headed, genuinely compassionate, and supporting posts that I've read in this thread.

I've had similar situations. I've offered food to hungry soi dogs before, only to have them bare their fangs and growl. It's best to leave them be. There are hungry soi dogs everywhere. It's sad when they snap at you when you're only trying to help. But many others will take the food, and be your friend. But again...sadly not all.

Hopefully one bad experience will not put you off.

Sincerely,

connda

Thanks Connda - to continue with your metaphor, I am not sure whether I want to feed this Soi dog or to pull its tail - as you suggest I will leave it alone - as long it doesn't bark at me again

[nocturn]

[

I don't need compassion, I need honnesty.

Ok it is obviously impossible to adress this issue here and every answer is unfortunately questioning me.

It is a shame that you cannot deal with a dent in your paradise pretty pic,

My personal situation has nothing to do with the establish racism in this country, and as I said previously I met other foreigners who admit they experienced it. Amongs them, a british journalist for the financial times, an italian manager at UNO, a korean painter, a head teacher in an international school.

I actually read here also on Thaivisa some posts about the institutionalization of racism in Thailand.

I realize it is a taboo question for most of you I think are in denial.

I love Thailand, but I am able to look at this country and see its failures.

I wish I could have found some people who share the same views, here but I think I gave too much info about me which gave arguments to people in denial.

Oh well, live and learn !

Best wishes!

luv, you already have validation, so why seek it here?

[aneliane]

[

I don't need compassion, I need honnesty.

Ok it is obviously impossible to adress this issue here and every answer is unfortunately questioning me.

It is a shame that you cannot deal with a dent in your paradise pretty pic,

My personal situation has nothing to do with the establish racism in this country, and as I said previously I met other foreigners who admit they experienced it. Amongs them, a british journalist for the financial times, an italian manager at UNO, a korean painter, a head teacher in an international school.

I actually read here also on Thaivisa some posts about the institutionalization of racism in Thailand.

I realize it is a taboo question for most of you I think are in denial.

I love Thailand, but I am able to look at this country and see its failures.

I wish I could have found some people who share the same views, here but I think I gave too much info about me which gave arguments to people in denial.

Oh well, live and learn !

Best wishes!

luv, you already have validation, so why seek it here?

I have validation that it exists yes

Now I would like to know how to deal with it.(see post title)

Racism against me is a fairly new experience for me

[aneliane]

Me too, except to add just one thing...

Dear OP,

I am sorry if I (or other posters) were a bit harsh on this thread. I think your initial post was just asking to be ripped apart. I assume you now realise you are not a victim of racism, and I hope you are happy about that.

I also hope our paths meet again on TV as my view on life is very different to yours, which could make for some interesting debate and humorous banter.

Yours sincerely, brit1984

I think you should look into your own self, as to why you need to be in such denial

What is so extraordinary about someone experiencing racist ?

In every country you have people thinking that foreigners should not come to their land.

Why would Thailand be THE exception.

Thai people are just like everywhere.

You are not in Lalaland.

Deal with it

I am disappointed you did not accept my apology but would like to wish you good luck for the future

Compared to racism, what people say here is childplay, im getting thick skinned

[aneliane]

Obviously the OP is having a hard time, i would avoid being to harsh to her, as we don't know all the facts.

Well, sometimes life is not fair, and the world is often a beautiful place only in our dreams, while is a jungle in reality..

Getting rid of negativity helps, positive thoughts attract positive things, IMHO.

Instead of blaming the others, start to work on yourself, the benefits will come almost immediately

can we drop the "look in yourself" bit? It's been written already here, it does not adress the issue, and I have already pointed that OTHER member have experienced it, so we can't be all crazy/lunatics/looney/lonely or whatever and some others have reported institutionalized racism.

Edited April 1, 2012 by aneliane

[edwinclapham]

May I ask where you are from Anelaine please?

What is keeping you in Thailand?

Have you explored alternatives?

Edited April 1, 2012 by edwinclapham

[Berkshire]

Obviously the OP is having a hard time, i would avoid being to harsh to her, as we don't know all the facts.

Well, sometimes life is not fair, and the world is often a beautiful place only in our dreams, while is a jungle in reality..

Getting rid of negativity helps, positive thoughts attract positive things, IMHO.

Instead of blaming the others, start to work on yourself, the benefits will come almost immediately

can we drop the "look in yourself" bit? It's been written already here, it does not adress the issue, and I have already pointed that OTHER member have experienced it, so we can't be all crazy/lunatics/looney/lonely or whatever and some others have reported institutionalized racism.

Your problem is that you're casually throwing the word "racism" around when it's not warranted. Don't worry, you're not alone (as you've pointed out). In order for the term racism to apply, there has to be a sinister aspect as well as historical context. Were farangs brought over to Thailand as slaves? Are there Thai restrooms and farangs restrooms? I think not. You are being treated differently because you're different. "Differently" can be better or worse. In America, people may be treated differently if they're morbidly obese, have a body full of tattoos, are gay, dress a certain way, drive an expensive car....whatever. An unusually attractive woman will be treated "differently." Certainly not worse, but better in most cases. But different nevertheless.

In America, a young black male can still be considered a criminal just walking around at night...or haven't you been reading the news regarding Trayvon Martin. That's real racism. The Thais aren't racist against farangs...or Japanese...or Korean....or anyone else. But they will treat you differently as you would treat a foreigner in your own country. Not good or bad, just different.

As others have mentioned, it is perhaps within yourself. Do you expect to be treated a certain way? Do you expect preferential treatment? And if these standards aren't met, do you automatically assume that it's racism? To ask another way, how do you treat others? I think you'll find that in general, you get what you give.

[connda]

Obviously the OP is having a hard time, i would avoid being to harsh to her, as we don't know all the facts.

Well, sometimes life is not fair, and the world is often a beautiful place only in our dreams, while is a jungle in reality..

Getting rid of negativity helps, positive thoughts attract positive things, IMHO.

Instead of blaming the others, start to work on yourself, the benefits will come almost immediately

can we drop the "look in yourself" bit? It's been written already here, it does not adress the issue, and I have already pointed that OTHER member have experienced it, so we can't be all crazy/lunatics/looney/lonely or whatever and some others have reported institutionalized racism.

Your problem is that you're casually throwing the word "racism" around when it's not warranted. Don't worry, you're not alone (as you've pointed out). In order for the term racism to apply, there has to be a sinister aspect as well as historical context. Were farangs brought over to Thailand as slaves? Are there Thai restrooms and farangs restrooms? I think not. You are being treated differently because you're different. "Differently" can be better or worse. In America, people may be treated differently if they're morbidly obese, have a body full of tattoos, are gay, dress a certain way, drive an expensive car....whatever. An unusually attractive woman will be treated "differently." Certainly not worse, but better in most cases. But different nevertheless.

In America, a young black male can still be considered a criminal just walking around at night...or haven't you been reading the news regarding Trayvon Martin. That's real racism. The Thais aren't racist against farangs...or Japanese...or Korean....or anyone else. But they will treat you differently as you would treat a foreigner in your own country. Not good or bad, just different.

As others have mentioned, it is perhaps within yourself. Do you expect to be treated a certain way? Do you expect preferential treatment? And if these standards aren't met, do you automatically assume that it's racism? To ask another way, how do you treat others? I think you'll find that in general, you get what you give.

Nice synopsis. I've met a lot of different folk, expats and Thai, here in the LOS. Some expats seem to be wired with preconceived notions and ingrained prejudices. It's easy enough to sit around with like-minded individuals and validate your preconceptions. But most of the expats I've met who end up living here long-term tend to be able to change and adapt. Heck, I had my own set of preconceived notions and ingrained prejudices when I first arrived. Over the years, some of those preconceptions have been validated to a certain extent, some have been totally blown away by acquiring an understanding of the people and culture, and some times I'm amazed at something totally new and out-of-the-blue that I never expected to experience. Example, I decided to go the one of the local universities to check out there library. The security man at the front didn't speak much English, so I did most of my questioning in the best Thai I could muster. I wandered about the library and found some cool stuff (so I'll be going back). On my way out, I thanked the security guy and told him I really enjoyed the visit. He then just about fell over backward to give me information about the library, hours of operation, and other information in the best English he could muster. Between my broken Thai and his broken English, we had a pretty good conversation.

I have more experiences that are positive in my interactions with Thais than I do negative. And when I do have a negative experience, I look around to see if, maybe, just many, the negativity is directed at everyone and not just me. Example: I eat noodles at a local street vendor. All the employees are sour-faced and dour. But the noodles are great. The employees aren't just sour faced and dour to me, they are that way to everyone. My wife and I have a joke: find the noodle vendor who smiles the least and you will find the most delicious noodles!

Sorry OP, but I really think you showed up in Thailand with preconceived notions and ingrained prejudices that simply intensified during your stay, and by your own admission you interact with like minded individuals who validate your negative experiences. That's a negative feedback loop that you're not going to break out of unless you want to. A number of TV members have offered some good advice and support. And you've decided to simply attack them. Sad.

It seems like you have come to this TV forum with an expectation that maybe the members here would validate your own experiences. What you have found instead is that the majority of us who live here and call this a home, simply have not had the same experiences as you do. And I'm using "experience" here loosely. You meet a simple farmer in the market, the farmer seems cold and uninterested in you, and your "experience" is one of "racism" directed against you (and all other foreigners). I go to the market, meet the same farmer, and I have a different "experience". Maybe the farmer is worried because the prices of produce is low; maybe the farmer doesn't feel well; maybe that is just the way the farmer is -- cold and uninterested to everyone; maybe the farmer hates foreigners. During my "experience" with the farmer, I "chat them up" with the best Thai I can: I act polite; if it's an older person I show respect; I talk about the weather; I talk about how great their produce looks; I talk! And if the farmer truly does hate foreigners, maybe after talking with me the farmer has a slightly different opinion. OP -- this is critical here -- you make your own "experiences". If you can't grasp that, you'll remain unhappy and victimized by these "racist" Thai folk and the “institutionalized racism” that is lurking around every corner – well, at least in your “experience”.

OP – I can’t validate your “experiences,” and I’m not in denial.

My guess is that you will live a relatively unsettled life here until you get fed up and leave. And that's OK. After a couple of years here, a lot of expats do leave. Thailand is not for everybody.

Maybe you'd find life easier outside of Asia. Consider Costa Rica and Uruguay. Developing countries like Thailand, but you may have more in common with the people there than in South East Asia. And Spanish is a lot easier to learn than Thai.

Edited April 1, 2012 by connda

[F1fanatic]

Obviously the OP is having a hard time, i would avoid being to harsh to her, as we don't know all the facts.

Well, sometimes life is not fair, and the world is often a beautiful place only in our dreams, while is a jungle in reality..

Getting rid of negativity helps, positive thoughts attract positive things, IMHO.

Instead of blaming the others, start to work on yourself, the benefits will come almost immediately

can we drop the "look in yourself" bit? It's been written already here, it does not adress the issue, and I have already pointed that OTHER member have experienced it, so we can't be all crazy/lunatics/looney/lonely or whatever and some others have reported institutionalized racism.

Your problem is that you're casually throwing the word "racism" around when it's not warranted. Don't worry, you're not alone (as you've pointed out). In order for the term racism to apply, there has to be a sinister aspect as well as historical context. Were farangs brought over to Thailand as slaves? Are there Thai restrooms and farangs restrooms? I think not. You are being treated differently because you're different. "Differently" can be better or worse. In America, people may be treated differently if they're morbidly obese, have a body full of tattoos, are gay, dress a certain way, drive an expensive car....whatever. An unusually attractive woman will be treated "differently." Certainly not worse, but better in most cases. But different nevertheless.

In America, a young black male can still be considered a criminal just walking around at night...or haven't you been reading the news regarding Trayvon Martin. That's real racism. The Thais aren't racist against farangs...or Japanese...or Korean....or anyone else. But they will treat you differently as you would treat a foreigner in your own country. Not good or bad, just different.

As others have mentioned, it is perhaps within yourself. Do you expect to be treated a certain way? Do you expect preferential treatment? And if these standards aren't met, do you automatically assume that it's racism? To ask another way, how do you treat others? I think you'll find that in general, you get what you give.

Nice synopsis. I've met a lot of different folk, expats and Thai, here in the LOS. Some expats seem to be wired with preconceived notions and ingrained prejudices. It's easy enough to sit around with like-minded individuals and validate your preconceptions. But most of the expats I've met who end up living here long-term tend to be able to change and adapt. Heck, I had my own set of preconceived notions and ingrained prejudices when I first arrived. Over the years, some of those preconceptions have been validated to a certain extent, some have been totally blown away by acquiring an understanding of the people and culture, and some times I'm amazed at something totally new and out-of-the-blue that I never expected to experience. Example, I decided to go the one of the local universities to check out there library. The security man at the front didn't speak much English, so I did most of my questioning in the best Thai I could muster. I wandered about the library and found some cool stuff (so I'll be going back). On my way out, I thanked the security guy and told him I really enjoyed the visit. He then just about fell over backward to give me information about the library, hours of operation, and other information in the best English he could muster. Between my broken Thai and his broken English, we had a pretty good conversation.

I have more experiences that are positive in my interactions with Thais than I do negative. And when I do have a negative experience, I look around to see if, maybe, just many, the negativity is directed at everyone and not just me. Example: I eat noodles at a local street vendor. All the employees are sour-faced and dour. But the noodles are great. The employees aren't just sour faced and dour to me, they are that way to everyone. My wife and I have a joke: find the noodle vendor who smiles the least and you will find the most delicious noodles!

Sorry OP, but I really think you showed up in Thailand with preconceived notions and ingrained prejudices that simply intensified during your stay, and by your own admission you interact with like minded individuals who validate your negative experiences. That's a negative feedback loop that you're not going to break out of unless you want to. A number of TV members have offered some good advice and support. And you've decided to simply attack them. Sad.

It seems like you have come to this TV forum with an expectation that maybe the members here would validate your own experiences. What you have found instead is that the majority of us who live here and call this a home, simply have not had the same experiences as you do. And I'm using "experience" here loosely. You meet a simple farmer in the market, the farmer seems cold and uninterested in you, and your "experience" is one of "racism" directed against you (and all other foreigners). I go to the market, meet the same farmer, and I have a different "experience". Maybe the farmer is worried because the prices of produce is low; maybe the farmer doesn't feel well; maybe that is just the way the farmer is -- cold and uninterested to everyone; maybe the farmer hates foreigners. During my "experience" with the farmer, I "chat them up" with the best Thai I can: I act polite; if it's an older person I show respect; I talk about the weather; I talk about how great their produce looks; I talk! And if the farmer truly does hate foreigners, maybe after talking with me the farmer has a slightly different opinion. OP -- this is critical here -- you make your own "experiences". If you can't grasp that, you'll remain unhappy and victimized by these "racist" Thai folk and the “institutionalized racism” that is lurking around every corner – well, at least in your “experience”.

OP – I can’t validate your “experiences,” and I’m not in denial.

My guess is that you will live a relatively unsettled life here until you get fed up and leave. And that's OK. After a couple of years here, a lot of expats do leave. Thailand is not for everybody.

Maybe you'd find life easier outside of Asia. Consider Costa Rica and Uruguay. Developing countries like Thailand, but you may have more in common with the people there than in South East Asia. And Spanish is a lot easier to learn than Thai.

I agree with most of your post but wonder what you mean by "Some expats seem to be wired with preconceived notions and ingrained prejudices."?

What do you think are those attitudes with which they arrived?

Edit - I ask, as I arrived here (after MANY holidays) believing the smiles were real. It took me a while to realise this is not necessarily the case. In fact most things I 'believed' from my holiday experiences turned out to be wrong....

Edited April 1, 2012 by F1fanatic

[connda]

F1fanatic: I can't quote your comment. I get: The number of opening quote tags does not match the number of closing quote tags. even when I don't add any quotes. It happens a lot.

Here's my reply:

Humm. A couple of examples of preconceived notions: I thought that the word Farang was derogatory. Now I feel it is a fairly general word to refer to foreigners of European decent (although there are TV members that will disagree). I thought that Buddhist monks were dedicated, meditation practicing, ascetics. I was really wrong on that one. I thought modern Thais were less ethnocentric than they are. I thought Thailand had a pretty good educational system. Now that I've worked within the educational system, I was way off on that one too. I thought petty crimes against foreigner was pretty rampant, but it seems to be localized, i.e., Phuket and Pattaya come to mind.

A typical preconceived notion a new expat may have is all Thais are friendly, smiling people. 555 to the TAT PR folk! Excellent PR campaign! The Southern provinces are a dangerous place to go (I still think that). It's socially acceptable to walk around the city drinking beer out of a bottle (you can but it really isn't). For younger tourists, its OK to drink, smoke dope, and drop X at the full moon parties (no it's not and it will get you thrown in jail, possibly for a long time). Thai food taste great (my God, there is some Lanna village dishes that just turn my stomach). We should ask thebleather. I'm sure he could come up with more, and probably funny ones at that. Oh, and I thought Thai women could actually be romantically enamored with their partners (a few years of marriage and her having one affair that I know of with a "rich" farang has changed my mind on that. And I've heard her talking with her friends, most of whom try to keep multiple farangs sending them money. And my wife's been doing the same over the years. Yeah, silly me for being naive. "It first of month honey. You have money?"

Edited April 1, 2012 by connda

[samran]

[

I don't need compassion, I need honnesty.

Ok it is obviously impossible to adress this issue here and every answer is unfortunately questioning me.

It is a shame that you cannot deal with a dent in your paradise pretty pic,

My personal situation has nothing to do with the establish racism in this country, and as I said previously I met other foreigners who admit they experienced it. Amongs them, a british journalist for the financial times, an italian manager at UNO, a korean painter, a head teacher in an international school.

I actually read here also on Thaivisa some posts about the institutionalization of racism in Thailand.

I realize it is a taboo question for most of you I think are in denial.

I love Thailand, but I am able to look at this country and see its failures.

I wish I could have found some people who share the same views, here but I think I gave too much info about me which gave arguments to people in denial.

Oh well, live and learn !

Best wishes!

luv, you already have validation, so why seek it here?

I have validation that it exists yes

Now I would like to know how to deal with it.(see post title)

Racism against me is a fairly new experience for me

This thread is a dog chasing its tail.

The nursery rhyme 'there's a hole in my bucket' comes to mind, and my dear OP, you are back to the last /first line of the song.

[maxme]

Connda, so your take on this is that racism or constitutional racism doesn´t exist in Thailand? Humbug... Of course it does and why shouldnt there be since Thailand is a developing country with many flaws. Think of the developed countries in the west where at some places racism thrives and then to say that the OP is way off base is a contradiction in terms.

The institutional racism is the problem since it spreads through channels with the only purpose of filling the common Thai´s mind with it. It´s done deliberaletly. Wasn´t it after the coup the rule about foreigners could only have 49% ownership in their own companies, that came into effect?

This is done to keep the grassroots where the elite want them to be. Like it or not, some can´t see why this is wrong or that it´s a false picture that the elite is trying to present.

I think some of the posters here must live in touristy places where it´s almost impossible to see the daily struggle when one tries to integrate into Thai society. Frankly with these conditions it´s virtually impossible since the conditions of being a Thai citizien doesn´t apply to most foreigners. How many foreigners can actually be farmers or working at McDonalds? How many people get Thai citizenship every year?A rough number would suffice...

Connda, not everyone lives the way you do or get the same treatment as you do. So to take your own example and then bash others who weren´t so lucky, make you being compared to a bully. Then you are not so much different from the uneducated people who tell foreigners to go home when their motives have been questioned.

Edited April 1, 2012 by maxme

[maxme]

[

I don't need compassion, I need honnesty.

Ok it is obviously impossible to adress this issue here and every answer is unfortunately questioning me.

It is a shame that you cannot deal with a dent in your paradise pretty pic,

My personal situation has nothing to do with the establish racism in this country, and as I said previously I met other foreigners who admit they experienced it. Amongs them, a british journalist for the financial times, an italian manager at UNO, a korean painter, a head teacher in an international school.

I actually read here also on Thaivisa some posts about the institutionalization of racism in Thailand.

I realize it is a taboo question for most of you I think are in denial.

I love Thailand, but I am able to look at this country and see its failures.

I wish I could have found some people who share the same views, here but I think I gave too much info about me which gave arguments to people in denial.

Oh well, live and learn !

Best wishes!

luv, you already have validation, so why seek it here?

I have validation that it exists yes

Now I would like to know how to deal with it.(see post title)

Racism against me is a fairly new experience for me

This thread is a dog chasing its tail.

The nursery rhyme 'there's a hole in my bucket' comes to mind, and my dear OP, you are back to the last /first line of the song.

Troll or not, it is a topic that needs to be discussed, like it or not.

[F1fanatic]

I'm not convinced its a topic that "needs" to be discussed - although its bound to be posted every now and again.

As I've said in previous posts (apologies for repeating myself) - racism is rampant in most/all countries.

Edited April 1, 2012 by F1fanatic

[kerryk]

I'm not convinced its a topic that "needs" to be discussed - although its bound to be posted every now and again.

As I've said in previous posts (apologies for repeating myself) - racism is rampant in most/all countries.

Look at all the problems Obama got himself into last week. He just should have kept his mouth shut. Now he faces the prospect of riots that he started.

[Ijustwannateach]

At this point, Aneliane, I recommend you see a professional to help you with your feelings of being persecuted. I'm afraid that neither I nor almost anyone else here 'deals with' what you seem to perceive being common experiences for you.

[Ijustwannateach]

For Samran:

[maxme]

At this point, Aneliane, I recommend you see a professional to help you with your feelings of being persecuted. I'm afraid that neither I nor almost anyone else here 'deals with' what you seem to perceive being common experiences for you.

There are a lot of nonsens going on in the Thai visa forum and she has the right to express her opinions as anybody else except for when it´s going over the line and pointing out entire groups and stereotyping them. I remind the MOD that it´s not what the OP is trying to do, she has just a different experience than some. I may not concurr to her assesments of the situation but we all look on it from different angles and that´s why we have the forum, is it not?

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm not telling her not to post, I'm recommending that she seek help with her feelings of persecution- up to her if she wants to do it or not. And that's my opinion, which I am also free to express, as you are yours. I'm glad we're all clear on that now!

[HardenedSoul]

I'm not convinced its a topic that "needs" to be discussed - although its bound to be posted every now and again.

As I've said in previous posts (apologies for repeating myself) - racism is rampant in most/all countries.

Maybe you're right; maybe not but again it all depends on what you define as racism.

I was brought up in a part of West London that, at the time, had more than its fair share of skinheads with affiliations to the National Front so, trust me, I know what racism is. It's being chased down the street and beaten by several pissed up thugs back from a QPR football match at Loftus Road for no other reason than being black and young.

It's walking past a working men's club and then having several customers exit the building with snooker cues intent on doing you serious bodily harm.

It's being subjected to hard questioning by the police who simply refused to believe you when you tell them that the two skinheads you helped send to the intensive care unit at St.Charles' Hospital in North Kensington thoroughly deserved the punctured lungs and partial paralysis they'd suffered.

It's having to deal with white kids calling you a black c**t as you walked past . . . just for kicks.

IMHO, being served last by a Thai vendor just doesn't register.

[theblether]

I'm not convinced its a topic that "needs" to be discussed - although its bound to be posted every now and again.

As I've said in previous posts (apologies for repeating myself) - racism is rampant in most/all countries.

Maybe you're right; maybe not but again it all depends on what you define as racism.

I was brought up in a part of West London that, at the time, had more than its fair share of skinheads with affiliations to the National Front so, trust me, I know what racism is. It's being chased down the street and beaten by several pissed up thugs back from a QPR football match at Loftus Road for no other reason than being black and young.

It's walking past a working men's club and then having several customers exit the building with snooker cues intent on doing you serious bodily harm.

It's being subjected to hard questioning by the police who simply refused to believe you when you tell them that the two skinheads you helped send to the intensive care unit at St.Charles' Hospital in North Kensington thoroughly deserved the punctured lungs and partial paralysis they'd suffered.

It's having to deal with white kids calling you a black c**t as you walked past . . . just for kicks.

IMHO, being served last by a Thai vendor just doesn't register.

Correct.

[maxme]

I'm not convinced its a topic that "needs" to be discussed - although its bound to be posted every now and again.

As I've said in previous posts (apologies for repeating myself) - racism is rampant in most/all countries.

Maybe you're right; maybe not but again it all depends on what you define as racism.

I was brought up in a part of West London that, at the time, had more than its fair share of skinheads with affiliations to the National Front so, trust me, I know what racism is. It's being chased down the street and beaten by several pissed up thugs back from a QPR football match at Loftus Road for no other reason than being black and young.

It's walking past a working men's club and then having several customers exit the building with snooker cues intent on doing you serious bodily harm.

It's being subjected to hard questioning by the police who simply refused to believe you when you tell them that the two skinheads you helped send to the intensive care unit at St.Charles' Hospital in North Kensington thoroughly deserved the punctured lungs and partial paralysis they'd suffered.

It's having to deal with white kids calling you a black c**t as you walked past . . . just for kicks.

IMHO, being served last by a Thai vendor just doesn't register.

It´s all up to definition but I do sympathize. It´s tragic we have to deal with this sort of things since we all belong and have the right to exist in this world.

[theblether]

I'm not convinced its a topic that "needs" to be discussed - although its bound to be posted every now and again.

As I've said in previous posts (apologies for repeating myself) - racism is rampant in most/all countries.

Maybe you're right; maybe not but again it all depends on what you define as racism.

I was brought up in a part of West London that, at the time, had more than its fair share of skinheads with affiliations to the National Front so, trust me, I know what racism is. It's being chased down the street and beaten by several pissed up thugs back from a QPR football match at Loftus Road for no other reason than being black and young.

It's walking past a working men's club and then having several customers exit the building with snooker cues intent on doing you serious bodily harm.

It's being subjected to hard questioning by the police who simply refused to believe you when you tell them that the two skinheads you helped send to the intensive care unit at St.Charles' Hospital in North Kensington thoroughly deserved the punctured lungs and partial paralysis they'd suffered.

It's having to deal with white kids calling you a black c**t as you walked past . . . just for kicks.

IMHO, being served last by a Thai vendor just doesn't register.

It´s all up to definition but I do sympathize. It´s tragic we have to deal with this sort of things since we all belong and have the right to exist in this world.

I would suggest that the daily fear of violence suffered by HS would be a starting point for defining racism.

If we farangs were under the same daily threat from Thais then the departure lounges would be full.

[maxme]

I'm not convinced its a topic that "needs" to be discussed - although its bound to be posted every now and again.

As I've said in previous posts (apologies for repeating myself) - racism is rampant in most/all countries.

Maybe you're right; maybe not but again it all depends on what you define as racism.

I was brought up in a part of West London that, at the time, had more than its fair share of skinheads with affiliations to the National Front so, trust me, I know what racism is. It's being chased down the street and beaten by several pissed up thugs back from a QPR football match at Loftus Road for no other reason than being black and young.

It's walking past a working men's club and then having several customers exit the building with snooker cues intent on doing you serious bodily harm.

It's being subjected to hard questioning by the police who simply refused to believe you when you tell them that the two skinheads you helped send to the intensive care unit at St.Charles' Hospital in North Kensington thoroughly deserved the punctured lungs and partial paralysis they'd suffered.

It's having to deal with white kids calling you a black c**t as you walked past . . . just for kicks.

IMHO, being served last by a Thai vendor just doesn't register.

It´s all up to definition but I do sympathize. It´s tragic we have to deal with this sort of things since we all belong and have the right to exist in this world.

I would suggest that the daily fear of violence suffered by HS would be a starting point for defining racism.

If we farangs were under the same daily threat from Thais then the departure lounges would be full.

Again up to definition. There are farangs with mixed blood, do these fall under the same category as the other "farangs". I find your comment prejudgmental.

Racism is racism, farangs don´t have monopoly on it, it exists everywhere. If you defend the Thais just because you feel sorry for their situation then you are not treating them like humans which they are, like you and me. The conditions for racism apply to everyone no matter nationality or the color of your skin

[nontabury]

The OP's story reminds me of a few lefty-hippy-girls in my college at uni... they did everything possible to mark themselves out as different and then moaned that they were not treated the same as everyone else... Thailand is known to be one of the easiest countries for ex-pats to settle in (largely due to the Thai people's tolerance of foreigners) and from the short time I have been here I can see why... if the OP feels uncomfortable here I think she should consider moving to Camden in London where she can meet many like-minded individuals

The OP's story reminds me of a few lefty-hippy-girls in my college at uni... they did everything possible to mark themselves out as different and then moaned that they were not treated the same as everyone else... Thailand is known to be one of the easiest countries for ex-pats to settle in (largely due to the Thai people's tolerance of foreigners) and from the short time I have been here I can see why... if the OP feels uncomfortable here I think she should consider moving to Camden in London where she can meet many like-minded individuals

The OP's story reminds me of a few lefty-hippy-girls in my college at uni... they did everything possible to mark themselves out as different and then moaned that they were not treated the same as everyone else... Thailand is known to be one of the easiest countries for ex-pats to settle in (largely due to the Thai people's tolerance of foreigners) and from the short time I have been here I can see why... if the OP feels uncomfortable here I think she should consider moving to Camden in London where she can meet many like-minded individuals

Again I quote- and from the short time I have been here. unquote

When you have been here a little longer you may still think the same, but by then you may come to realise that some Thais are out and out

racist, not always to your face, but still racist, it's unofficial thai policy from the hi-so down, they want to depict us as the bogyman.Helps to keep the status quo.

[connda]

Connda, so your take on this is that racism or constitutional racism doesn´t exist in Thailand? Humbug... Of course it does and why shouldnt there be since Thailand is a developing country with many flaws. Think of the developed countries in the west where at some places racism thrives and then to say that the OP is way off base is a contradiction in terms.

The institutional racism is the problem since it spreads through channels with the only purpose of filling the common Thai´s mind with it. It´s done deliberaletly. Wasn´t it after the coup the rule about foreigners could only have 49% ownership in their own companies, that came into effect?

This is done to keep the grassroots where the elite want them to be. Like it or not, some can´t see why this is wrong or that it´s a false picture that the elite is trying to present.

I think some of the posters here must live in touristy places where it´s almost impossible to see the daily struggle when one tries to integrate into Thai society. Frankly with these conditions it´s virtually impossible since the conditions of being a Thai citizien doesn´t apply to most foreigners. How many foreigners can actually be farmers or working at McDonalds? How many people get Thai citizenship every year?A rough number would suffice...

Connda, not everyone lives the way you do or get the same treatment as you do. So to take your own example and then bash others who weren´t so lucky, make you being compared to a bully. Then you are not so much different from the uneducated people who tell foreigners to go home when their motives have been questioned.

Hummm. Reread the post. I'm not sure how you got, "your take on this is that racism or constitutional racism doesn´t exist in Thailand?". Those are you own words. They are not mine.

The point is that you have control over your perceptions and actions which make up your "experience". Our OP sees a racist farmer in the market. I see a lot of other possibilities. I don't rule out racism ["..maybe the farmer hates foreigners."]. But its up to you how you chose to perceive it and how you work with it.

I just don't have a lot of sympathy for individuals who feel victimized by racism including the OP. Now why would I say that? Because I'm been the object of extreme racial hatred based on the color of my skin. I walked into an all minority establishment with two minority friends of mine. I didn't get a half a dozen steps inside the place before I got "what the <deleted> are you doing in here?" and then proceeded to get the shit kicked out of me. My friends came to my aide but we were outnumbered and got stomped -- at gunpoint. Hummm! In another instance I was invited to a party at which I was only one of two whites. After my hosts left, I stuck around, talked with people and enjoyed the party. WIthin about 10 minutes, a couple of guys came up and suggested I leave. Marshmallow in the chocolate. As long as my host was there, it was good. My host left. Hummm! That's racism. How do I feel? I don't feel like a victim. People can hate all they want based on whatever criteria they wish. I doesn't mean I have to participate. I don't feel like a victim so I shrug it off and go about my life -- maybe a little bit wiser. I'm going to end it there. You either understand or you don't. If you can't grasp my perspective, that's OK too.

Edited April 1, 2012 by connda

[maxme]

Obviously the OP is having a hard time, i would avoid being to harsh to her, as we don't know all the facts.

Well, sometimes life is not fair, and the world is often a beautiful place only in our dreams, while is a jungle in reality..

Getting rid of negativity helps, positive thoughts attract positive things, IMHO.

Instead of blaming the others, start to work on yourself, the benefits will come almost immediately

can we drop the "look in yourself" bit? It's been written already here, it does not adress the issue, and I have already pointed that OTHER member have experienced it, so we can't be all crazy/lunatics/looney/lonely or whatever and some others have reported institutionalized racism.

Your problem is that you're casually throwing the word "racism" around when it's not warranted. Don't worry, you're not alone (as you've pointed out). In order for the term racism to apply, there has to be a sinister aspect as well as historical context. Were farangs brought over to Thailand as slaves? Are there Thai restrooms and farangs restrooms? I think not. You are being treated differently because you're different. "Differently" can be better or worse. In America, people may be treated differently if they're morbidly obese, have a body full of tattoos, are gay, dress a certain way, drive an expensive car....whatever. An unusually attractive woman will be treated "differently." Certainly not worse, but better in most cases. But different nevertheless.

In America, a young black male can still be considered a criminal just walking around at night...or haven't you been reading the news regarding Trayvon Martin. That's real racism. The Thais aren't racist against farangs...or Japanese...or Korean....or anyone else. But they will treat you differently as you would treat a foreigner in your own country. Not good or bad, just different.

As others have mentioned, it is perhaps within yourself. Do you expect to be treated a certain way? Do you expect preferential treatment? And if these standards aren't met, do you automatically assume that it's racism? To ask another way, how do you treat others? I think you'll find that in general, you get what you give.

Nice synopsis. I've met a lot of different folk, expats and Thai, here in the LOS. Some expats seem to be wired with preconceived notions and ingrained prejudices. It's easy enough to sit around with like-minded individuals and validate your preconceptions. But most of the expats I've met who end up living here long-term tend to be able to change and adapt. Heck, I had my own set of preconceived notions and ingrained prejudices when I first arrived. Over the years, some of those preconceptions have been validated to a certain extent, some have been totally blown away by acquiring an understanding of the people and culture, and some times I'm amazed at something totally new and out-of-the-blue that I never expected to experience. Example, I decided to go the one of the local universities to check out there library. The security man at the front didn't speak much English, so I did most of my questioning in the best Thai I could muster. I wandered about the library and found some cool stuff (so I'll be going back). On my way out, I thanked the security guy and told him I really enjoyed the visit. He then just about fell over backward to give me information about the library, hours of operation, and other information in the best English he could muster. Between my broken Thai and his broken English, we had a pretty good conversation.

I have more experiences that are positive in my interactions with Thais than I do negative. And when I do have a negative experience, I look around to see if, maybe, just many, the negativity is directed at everyone and not just me. Example: I eat noodles at a local street vendor. All the employees are sour-faced and dour. But the noodles are great. The employees aren't just sour faced and dour to me, they are that way to everyone. My wife and I have a joke: find the noodle vendor who smiles the least and you will find the most delicious noodles!

Sorry OP, but I really think you showed up in Thailand with preconceived notions and ingrained prejudices that simply intensified during your stay, and by your own admission you interact with like minded individuals who validate your negative experiences. That's a negative feedback loop that you're not going to break out of unless you want to. A number of TV members have offered some good advice and support. And you've decided to simply attack them. Sad.

It seems like you have come to this TV forum with an expectation that maybe the members here would validate your own experiences. What you have found instead is that the majority of us who live here and call this a home, simply have not had the same experiences as you do. And I'm using "experience" here loosely. You meet a simple farmer in the market, the farmer seems cold and uninterested in you, and your "experience" is one of "racism" directed against you (and all other foreigners). I go to the market, meet the same farmer, and I have a different "experience". Maybe the farmer is worried because the prices of produce is low; maybe the farmer doesn't feel well; maybe that is just the way the farmer is -- cold and uninterested to everyone; maybe the farmer hates foreigners. During my "experience" with the farmer, I "chat them up" with the best Thai I can: I act polite; if it's an older person I show respect; I talk about the weather; I talk about how great their produce looks; I talk! And if the farmer truly does hate foreigners, maybe after talking with me the farmer has a slightly different opinion. OP -- this is critical here -- you make your own "experiences". If you can't grasp that, you'll remain unhappy and victimized by these "racist" Thai folk and the “institutionalized racism” that is lurking around every corner – well, at least in your “experience”.

OP – I can’t validate your “experiences,” and I’m not in denial.

My guess is that you will live a relatively unsettled life here until you get fed up and leave. And that's OK. After a couple of years here, a lot of expats do leave. Thailand is not for everybody.

Maybe you'd find life easier outside of Asia. Consider Costa Rica and Uruguay. Developing countries like Thailand, but you may have more in common with the people there than in South East Asia. And Spanish is a lot easier to learn than Thai.

Probably was this sentence that caught my mind. It does creep up in every corner and sure enough you either adapt or find some other way but it should be resolved. You are just pushing away the problem here.

I condole when it comes what you have experienced but I´m not sure of your motives here because to me you seem to think that white people shouldn´t complain since they stand for most of the racism in the world or am I wrong in my conclusion?

As I mentioned before, racism is racism no matter the color and as I´ve also mentioned is that I think that the OP was confused between the insecurity some locals display and full blown racism.

I noticed sth that affects their ways of handling things and that´s called bad management. There is virually no quality checks and the concept "service mind" doesn´t exist in many places. However this is not something aimed at the foreigner but everybody since they haven´t understood the meaning of it. If you are new here , even if you live the Thai way , it could be interpreted as racism from time to time since it only seems to happen to you but the fact is they do it to alot of people even the locals not just you.

[StreetCowboy]

I'm not convinced its a topic that "needs" to be discussed - although its bound to be posted every now and again.

As I've said in previous posts (apologies for repeating myself) - racism is rampant in most/all countries.

Maybe you're right; maybe not but again it all depends on what you define as racism.

I was brought up in a part of West London that, at the time, had more than its fair share of skinheads with affiliations to the National Front so, trust me, I know what racism is. It's being chased down the street and beaten by several pissed up thugs back from a QPR football match at Loftus Road for no other reason than being black and young.

It's walking past a working men's club and then having several customers exit the building with snooker cues intent on doing you serious bodily harm.

It's being subjected to hard questioning by the police who simply refused to believe you when you tell them that the two skinheads you helped send to the intensive care unit at St.Charles' Hospital in North Kensington thoroughly deserved the punctured lungs and partial paralysis they'd suffered.

It's having to deal with white kids calling you a black c**t as you walked past . . . just for kicks.

IMHO, being served last by a Thai vendor just doesn't register.

It´s all up to definition but I do sympathize. It´s tragic we have to deal with this sort of things since we all belong and have the right to exist in this world.

I would suggest that the daily fear of violence suffered by HS would be a starting point for defining racism.

If we farangs were under the same daily threat from Thais then the departure lounges would be full.

I think a good starting point for defining racism would be discrimination in treatment due to (apparent or perceived) race or nationality.

[theblether]

I think a good starting point for defining racism would be discrimination in treatment due to (apparent or perceived) race or nationality.

Aha.......so now we have a " How many angels can dance on the head of a pin " type question.

We end up getting lost in philisophical debates about definitions while young boys are getting their teeth smashed in on the streets of London.

I have more pragmatic view of it, start with the clear and compelling danger, start with the obvious, eradicate that then let the philosophers deal with the nuances.

We both know due to our backgrounds that bigotry is colour blind too.