Ethical Question In A Relationship.

[Shurup]

I am on a verge of doing something ethically wrong to my GF but I see no other way for our relationship to last. It may actually end either way if she won't be able to forgive me for what I'm about to do.

Here is a little bit of the story.

I've been with my GF for 2 years, there is only 1 year age difference between us and she's never even been inside a go-go bar prior to meeting me.

It was all piecefully headed towards a merriage, a family and moving into Canada, with the exception of a few quirks one of which worth mentioning is money.

She's been to Canada for 2 times already, 2 weeks a first time and a 6 months last time. We are scheduled to depart again at the end of April after I finish working and she's ganna stay there for a half a year again.

As the time went by, she earned enough trust for me to make her a credit card, leave her my Canadian bank card while I was gone for work for a month every second month, we opened a joined bank account in Thailand and I started saving my money here instead of Canada.

She quit her office job in BKK on my request about a year ago (which made her a bit lazy but it's offtopic), after I agreed to pay her salary instead. It was nothing for me but I wanted to spend time with her on my month off and didn't want to be stuck in BKK Mon-Fri. Eventially paying her salary was dropped also as I agreed to send some money to her parents once a month (I do help my mom sometimes too so nothing wrong with helping her parents) and I let her use my money and I didn't restrain her spendings as she was always very conservative about the money. The topic about giving her a budget was coming up a multiple number of times but was always dropped as it's just looks very weird to me to have any sort of relationship and giving your partner a budget, that unless that person has a drinking or any other problems where the budget can be given to keep that under some sort of control.

All was good until her last few months in Canada, when I noticed she was dithdrawing $500 from the account for the last 3 month before we went back to Thailand. I askded her and she said that was her pocket money and she was using cash to pay for food, transport, etc as she didn't like using credit or a bank card. $500 wasn't a big deal to me as I spend more than that myself, but knowing how coservative she was about spending money, I didn't believe she spent that much, it indeed look like she's given herself a budget and consided money not spent as her money. I let it go as it wasn't really a big deal to make any fuss or fight over it. Then right before we went back she said that one of her classmates from her school (she was studying English there), a Thai woman asked her if she can take some money back with her and pass it to her parents. Very conviniently, out of everywhere in Thailand, her friend's parents lived in the same province as my GF's parents and at all not that far from her village. The amount was $1800 just as much as GF could have easily "saved". We had a fight about it of course as I didn't take the "friend passing money" story. We got over it, or better say I did, but there wasn't this kind of trust as there was before.

There was lots of others small money quirks before and after not worth mentioning, but another big one was right before I returned to work at the end of March. I checked a bank book from our joint Thai account and there was 50,000 baht gone in Feb and 50,000 in March. Like I said she was free to take what she needed to for food, shopping or whatever but I hate the idea of her taking money to put it on her own account. Anyways, when confronted, she said she couldn't remember what she spent the money on. I asked her politely to try to recall that and 2-3 days later when I brought it up again she just kept saying she still couldn't remember. That's where we are now.

*****************************************************************

Now I've been thinking for the last few days, and I can't think or anything but her stealing money, but what worse than that is her lying to me. I don't want to believe this (her sealing and lying) and I hate this but I told her that the only way for us to stay together is if she takes a polygraph test once we are back to Canada. I feel very bad about doing it to her but I honestly see no other way. If polygraph proves she isn't lying, I would feel like the biggest piece of A$$ in the world and I know our relationship would never be the same even if she forgives me for doing this. I just can't believe someone can spend $3000 in 2 months and not remembering that and a general "I was shopping" just doesn't cut it. Even IF she took it to put it on her account but admit it, we could work it out and I could get over it. But lying I can't stand.

So the rant is over as well as my relationship as it seems. What would you do if you were in my shoes?

[Shurup]

The weird thing is, my coworker's wife is exactly the same and he well knows what she's doing and is fine with it. However he's an olded dude and his wife is at his daughter's age. He's not planning to have a family or move to Canada with her. If I was in his shoes, I would probably let it be this way but I have other plans. Are all the Thai girls are the same?

[TommoPhysicist]

You are paying her a monthly salary, giving her $500 on top for spending and allowing her to help herself to your savings.

This must be a windup?

[Shurup]

Paying her salary didn't last long as I said.

Thanks for the advice on nothing by the way.

[TommoPhysicist]

She is doing what almost any human being would do, taking what she now believes is hers by right.

If you want serious advice, empty your joint account, dump her and start again, you have already spoiled this relationship for both of you. If you insist on continuing the relationship, things will only get worse.

Edited April 3, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Jdietz]

Yours is not different.

[necronx99]

For me it wouldn't be a deal breaker but it is a pivotal moment.

No poly, that's just silly. Her story is BS. You know it is.

Put it to her, fess up with proof or hit the road.

Edited April 3, 2012 by necronx99

[Shurup]

She is doing what almost any human being would do, taking what she now believes is hers by right.

If you want serious advice, empty your joint account, dump her and start again, you have already spoiled this relationship for both of you. If you insist on continuing the relationship, things will only get worse.

By spoiled you mean I gave her access to all my money? Well, I don't know what sort of relationships guys have here? Give your wife/GF a monthly allowance, a budget? That isn't the relationship in my book. I was married once before (in Canada) and I didn't have to do any of these things to my now ex-wife, we both had a common interest in accumulating wealth and in our spendings. I wasted 7 years back then but came out clean with no payments or supports of any kind. The irony was that we broke over her not wanting to have kids and when it happened I was glad we didn't make any. That was offtopic.

Maybe my problem is that I am trying to apply western standarts to Thailand and a Thai girl. Not sure if it's possible but when you have to give your wife a monthly allowance it's a joke, not a relationship.

[Shurup]

Yours is not different.

Meaning your is the same? How do you manage this? Give her a budget? Just curious.

[TommoPhysicist]

Maybe my problem is that I am trying to apply western standarts to Thailand and a Thai girl. Not sure if it's possible but when you have to give your wife a monthly allowance it's a joke, not a relationship.

How about treating her like a western woman and getting her to earn her own money and contribute financially to the family/relationship. I do agree giving any partner an allowance is a joke, it's not a relationship.

Edited April 3, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Shurup]

For me it wouldn't be a deal breaker but it is a pivotal moment.

No poly, that's just silly. Her story is BS. You know it is.

Put it to her, fess up with proof or hit the road.

Money isn't a deal breaker, lying is.

When I told her about the polygraph, she agreed to take the test right away to clean her name up, meaning she isn't lying or really naive to think she can beat it.

[necronx99]

For me it wouldn't be a deal breaker but it is a pivotal moment.

No poly, that's just silly. Her story is BS. You know it is.

Put it to her, fess up with proof or hit the road.

Money isn't a deal breaker, lying is.

When I told her about the polygraph, she agreed to take the test right away to clean her name up, meaning she isn't lying or really naive to think she can beat it.

Is she fluent in English or is the poly in Thai?

Irrelevant as her story is BS and you know it is regardless of a poly test.

[Shurup]

How about treating her like a western woman and getting her to earn her own money and contribute financially to the family/relationship. I do agree giving any partner an allowance is a joke, it's not a relationship.

Even if I had a western woman, I wouldn't want her working, I am making more than plenty and when I'm off I don't want to be stuck at one place Mon-Fri waiting for them to return from work.

My GF did express the desire to work in Canada but being on a visitor visa she's not allowed to do it legaly. Up until this incident I didn't feel safe marrying her in Canada just to allow her to work there, 2 years isn't long enough to know the person and a risk is high (for me) if it didn't work out.

[ravip]

I am no expert on Polygraphs. But when I read this type of articles, it raised a few questions.

Polygraphy has little credibility among scientists - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph

Some doubts - http://antipolygraph.org/

[TommoPhysicist]

How about treating her like a western woman and getting her to earn her own money and contribute financially to the family/relationship. I do agree giving any partner an allowance is a joke, it's not a relationship.

Even if I had a western woman, I wouldn't want her working, I am making more than plenty and when I'm off I don't want to be stuck at one place Mon-Fri waiting for them to return from work.

My GF did express the desire to work in Canada but being on a visitor visa she's not allowed to do it legaly. Up until this incident I didn't feel safe marrying her in Canada just to allow her to work there, 2 years isn't long enough to know the person and a risk is high (for me) if it didn't work out.

Not having her work will maximize her claims against your property, salary, pension and savings based on her 6 months in Canada.

I believe she already qualifies as a 'spouse' under Canadian law (but am no expert).

[onionluke]

I would like to offer some alternative advice . Forget the lie detector test . Tell her you want to take a joint ESP Test . Then get all wired up together with skull caps all attached to the microwave machine , and then turn it on full for about 5 minutes . Then you say , " i understand now " .

[BookMan]

I think you have to have it out with her. You know she took the money for herself. She knows you know. It might never be admitted however.

The fact she has done this could indicate several things. It could be she wants money for her family. It could be she is making a nest egg just in case things go bad. Or it could be you have given her the opportunity-not put clear boundaries in place.

I think if you tell someone they can use the bank account/credit card whenever they need to, then that is just what they are going to do. So it might not seem too bad to her to take the money for herself.

Now that she has been caught, it would help your relationship if she would admit to why she took it. And that she took it to save for herself.

For your ongoing relationship to work I think you need to thrash that out and put in some clear rules for what money can be used for in future.

A bit of tough love might bring some more respect on the matter

Edited April 3, 2012 by BookMan

[Shurup]

Is she fluent in English or is the poly in Thai?

Irrelevant as her story is BS and you know it is regardless of a poly test.

Her English is fluent. She knows the consequnces if she failes as I told her she would be back on a plane the next day in that case. She wants to take it regardless and that's where I am doubting myself. Would a person blindly go for it if they know they are lying? I don't know, maybe it's just part of the game to see if I back down seeing as she's willing to take it?

A bad thing is that out bank book is with her with over 1M baht as well as a bag with my diving gear and my camera bag each worth $3000-4000. She's saying she will give it all back... Not sure if I should make things worse until I return from work end of this month, but I don't see them getting any better unless I pretend I'm not pissed anymore which isn't easy.

[TommoPhysicist]

I told her she would be back on a plane the next day in that case.

We are quickly entering into the realms of mental cruelty aka domestic violence.

Good luck with the Canadian police when she gets a restraining order to remove you from your (soon to be her) home.

PS

From what you have posted in this thread, I think any Canadian judge would convict you already.

In the west, treat a woman like this at your peril.

Edited April 3, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[FWIW]

For me it wouldn't be a deal breaker but it is a pivotal moment.

No poly, that's just silly. Her story is BS. You know it is.

Put it to her, fess up with proof or hit the road.

Money isn't a deal breaker, lying is.

When I told her about the polygraph, she agreed to take the test right away to clean her name up, meaning she isn't lying or really naive to think she can beat it.

I must admit, I am somewhat confused. You don't believe in giving her an allowance (thats not your idea of a relationship), so you give her access to your money, but when she takes it you throw a wobbly?

As you say the issue is not about the money, what is the issue about? That she is using the money in a way that you do not approve of, or condone?

In this case, I would look to the family - I would bet there is a problem there somewhere -and that is where the money is going. Maybe she thinks that you are going to either refuse or go off the deep end if she told you where it was really going?

Whatever, the problem is that she has something going on that you two are not talking about - that is as much a warning sign as anything. Your best option at this point is to sit down and try to sort out what is going on -and find out what is she afraid to tell you.

Lastly, as a personal opinion - any time that "polygraph" is seen as potentially relationship saving device - its already way too late.

[MAJIC]

Someone who drew 50,000 baht for two months,from your account,and claims she doesn't remember what she used it for,doesn't need a polygraph,you are desperately clutching at straws,and you already know she is lying.

Face up to it! instead of dreaming up more excuses for her deviousness,and save the expense of the Polygraph,use the saving for a one way ticket as far away from her as possible!

[Shurup]

I am no expert on Polygraphs. But when I read this type of articles, it raised a few questions.

Polygraphy has little credibility among scientists - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph

Some doubts - http://antipolygraph.org/

It's a debate that would probably never end. I mean science can prove almost anything you want to prove. It's absolutely not impossible to fool it but not everyone can do it and I'm sure it requires very extensive training.

What I though is that IF it proves she's telling the truth, I would never ever have any doubts in her ever again, that would be good for the relationship IF it lasts.

[Shurup]

Not having her work will maximize her claims against your property, salary, pension and savings based on her 6 months in Canada.

I believe she already qualifies as a 'spouse' under Canadian law (but am no expert).

I told her she would be back on a plane the next day in that case.

We are quickly entering into the realms of mental cruelty aka domestic violence.

Good luck with the Canadian police when she gets a restraining order to remove you from your (soon to be her) home.

PS

From what you have posted in this thread, I think any Canadian judge would convict you already.

In the west, treat a woman like this at your peril.

You might be somewheat right on both of your points, however if it was proven she's a thief I wouldn't think any judge would seriously consider letting a criminal stay in canada, would they?

[Shurup]

I think you have to have it out with her. You know she took the money for herself. She knows you know. It might never be admitted however.

The fact she has done this could indicate several things. It could be she wants money for her family. It could be she is making a nest egg just in case things go bad. Or it could be you have given her the opportunity-not put clear boundaries in place.

I think if you tell someone they can use the bank account/credit card whenever they need to, then that is just what they are going to do. So it might not seem too bad to her to take the money for herself.

Now that she has been caught, it would help your relationship if she would admit to why she took it. And that she took it to save for herself.

For your ongoing relationship to work I think you need to thrash that out and put in some clear rules for what money can be used for in future.

A bit of tough love might bring some more respect on the matter

That's a good advice, I tried to explain to her that admitting no matter had bad it is, is better than lying. I will try again, not sure if she would change.

[Shurup]

I must admit, I am somewhat confused. You don't believe in giving her an allowance (thats not your idea of a relationship), so you give her access to your money, but when she takes it you throw a wobbly?

As you say the issue is not about the money, what is the issue about? That she is using the money in a way that you do not approve of, or condone?

In this case, I would look to the family - I would bet there is a problem there somewhere -and that is where the money is going. Maybe she thinks that you are going to either refuse or go off the deep end if she told you where it was really going?

Whatever, the problem is that she has something going on that you two are not talking about - that is as much a warning sign as anything. Your best option at this point is to sit down and try to sort out what is going on -and find out what is she afraid to tell you.

Lastly, as a personal opinion - any time that "polygraph" is seen as potentially relationship saving device - its already way too late.

Yes she was allowed to spend the money for her needs but moving money from our account to her wasn't one of the needs, she knew that there would be troubles if she did that and she knew how I even felt about her keeping her separate account. It was discussed a number of times when the Budget topic was brought up.

There indeed was a tragedy in her family, in the mid of Feb her dad was cutting a tree and it smashed and crushed his foot real bad, he's still recovering and on the crutches, however it happened after her first 50,000 withdrawal. She said that while he was in a hospital he had to pay 16,000 so she helped him a bit (3500 she said), that account for some of the money. I do believe she was shopping, I know she had some expences but that was nowhere near the amont that came off of the account.

If there is anything alse going on in her family, she's not telling and I didn't see anything as I used to go visit them quite often.

I hope you're wrong on your personal opinion, I understand it's morally wrong but there's just too much going trough my head and I don't have a clear picture in there, I might regreat it later when my head clears up, or I might not regreat it at all. Time will tell.

[mackes]

No doubt she is lying to you. Spending that much money without knowing is impossible!

Your doing her a disservice by giving her free access to your savings. People used to being poor cannot handle this radical change.

I will say what's happened is as much your fault as hers. Your only chance to save your relation is to forget about the previous mistakes and start all over again. And give her a budget this time and tell her that's all uou can afford.

Investments in house, home and other similar one time cost are one thing but monthly operational cost must be controlled if you care about your wealth.

[TommoPhysicist]

Not having her work will maximize her claims against your property, salary, pension and savings based on her 6 months in Canada.

I believe she already qualifies as a 'spouse' under Canadian law (but am no expert).

I told her she would be back on a plane the next day in that case.

We are quickly entering into the realms of mental cruelty aka domestic violence.

Good luck with the Canadian police when she gets a restraining order to remove you from your (soon to be her) home.

PS

From what you have posted in this thread, I think any Canadian judge would convict you already.

In the west, treat a woman like this at your peril.

You might be somewheat right on both of your points, however if it was proven she's a thief I wouldn't think any judge would seriously consider letting a criminal stay in canada, would they?

Q: Can you steal from a joint account?

A: Not if your name is one of the names on it.

(It might be morally wrong to take a lot of money out, but it sure isn't a crime)

PS

Looks like she lied to you about the hospital fees as well. Thais are treated free of charge.

Edited April 3, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Shurup]

Someone who drew 50,000 baht for two months,from your account,and claims she doesn't remember what she used it for,doesn't need a polygraph,you are desperately clutching at straws,and you already know she is lying.

Face up to it! instead of dreaming up more excuses for her deviousness,and save the expense of the Polygraph,use the saving for a one way ticket as far away from her as possible!

There is always a "what if" factor but you might be right saying that I sound desperate, I dunno...

I can't do anything until the end of the month so will see how it turns out.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

[brit1984]

Could be many reasons why she is stealing the money... could be to help her family, to fund an addiction (gambling most likely), to repay loans, vet bills for buffalos, etc... whatever it is I am sure she is as upset about it as you... if you love her, tell her so and try talking to her... if you don't love her then end it, learn from it and move on...

[Shurup]

Q: Can you steal from a joint account?

A: Not if your name is one of the names on it.

(It might be morally wrong to take a lot of money out, but it sure isn't a crime)

PS

Looks like she lied to you about the hospital fees as well. Thais are treated free of charge.

You're devil's advocate... But you're right...

Re your PS. Is it free regardless what they go to a hospital for and how long they stay there?