Ethical Question In A Relationship.

Shurup · April 4, 2012

Shurup

I am deeply concerned for you after reading your post. I think in your heart you know you don't need a polygraph.

You need to act, & act quickly. My advice is this.

Do you have a best friend, or close family member you can speak frankly & openly with?

Someone who loves you, and has your best interests at heart.

Please recant all the exact details & facts to them, leaving out nothing, and listen without prejudice as to what their advice is.

I have a feeling that you may be quite shocked by their response.

Good luck mate, you need to move quickly with this.

In my head I still have some doubts that just maybe (???) she really did spend that money, I think it's because I still have feelings to her. I was boiling when I tried to resolve it piecefully and she kept saying I don't remember... That's how I came up with poly idea. Should have taken a few days to cool off, I know, and tried more.

No reason consulting with anyone that loves me (that would be family), they don't have feelings to her as I do so I know what their reply would be.

AGareth2 · April 4, 2012

if she is a house wife she will require house money

a monthly budget helps keep costs under control

Shurup · April 4, 2012

i have friends who provided the TGF/wife with a living allowance, household expenses etc. In most cases the women will underspend the actual living allowance/household expenses etc and either send money to the family, spend on gambling or both. At the end of the day your partner will either mature for managing financial matters, have more respect for you or she will not. You know her, your judgement call. if you wish to carry on then as other people have suggested cancel the joint account immediately & set up a seperate account for her. I suggest proposing a polygraph test would have been deeply insulting to her which she will not forget even though (Thai style) she may have smiled and agreed.

Best of luck...

Just remembered cancelling joint account will probably require two signatures

That's what I think about the budget type relationship too. If I gave her budget, she would skimp on things she need, on food to save and send back home. That's why I let her to use money freely and agreed send some to her parents. Wasn't enough apearently.

No need to cancel the joint account, she can keep it, empty, I have another one in Thailand that I don't use where I would transfer the money. That if there is any money left when I'm back.

As I said a few posts above, I was hot headed when I offered a poly test and she was shocked initially. It was probably a bad idea but I didn't see any other way as she just kept saying I don't remember.

Shurup · April 4, 2012

It took you and I many years of pain and mistakes to understand how to manage money properly, don't expect your partner to learn the same vistually overnight.

You may be right on this one, a few years appear to be not long long enough to manage it properly. Where she is now was given her in stages as she passed one after the other without making much mess.

pipo1000 · April 4, 2012

The link is her Thai classmate in Canada.Do some research on that and you will have your answer.

chiang mai · April 4, 2012

It took you and I many years of pain and mistakes to understand how to manage money properly, don't expect your partner to learn the same vistually overnight.

You may be right on this one, a few years appear to be not long long enough to manage it properly. Where she is now was given her in stages as she passed one after the other without making much mess.

I've been with my partner/wife for eight years and she comes from a very impoversihed background and has no real educational background per se, I've tried various financial controls over time, some work partially, some work fully for limited periods of time and only one works perfectly and that is if I control the money.

My partner has no experience or background in budgeting or savings and investment, those things are alien to her whereas I have many years in different guises of creating my own wealth. She has her own income stream from her employment and she is free to spend her earnings as she wishes, I often suggest savings targets to her, 100k Baht has been frequently mentioned but the more she accumulates the more she spends, just like most people I suppose. We do not have linked/joint accounts and we don't have disagreements any longer about finances, I pay for the main things in life and if she should need extra cash at some point we look at each instance on a case by case basis. That doesn't happen very often and I frequently say no and this is not a problem. Family crisis happen from time to time where money is needed by family members and I usually respond favorably, said funds are always repaid because everyone knows the flow will stop forever if it is not. I think my partner realises that she lives and is treatedwell, is well taken care of and is loved, to push the boundaries too far would undo all that so she is careful, for me to adopt a western model of finances vs relationship would be stupid on my part and highly dangerous for me, and her. Having said all those things, we are able to talk openly about all aspects of this subject so everyones thoughts are on the table and nobody disgrees which I think is healthy and eliminates the need to "fight". But it was a long time getting to this point and I had not imagined at the outset that the task would that difficult.

Edited April 4, 2012 by chiang mai

ravip · April 4, 2012

my bet is the that you are right she has the money stashed in her own account, which means she is probably planning on doing a runner anyway. take what you want from her, cut her off and put your own running shoes on. "ciao baby c u wouldnt want to be u"

I'm 100% certain she wasn't planning on running. Even IF (!!!) her feelings were fake and she only had a financial interest, I was too good of a catch to run from me. As I mentioned an age difference between us is only one year, we are in our early 30s, neither of us is ugly (actually I was told hundreds of times that I'm a hansum man khmm...), nither of us have kids. From what I've seen in Thailand, her other alternative would be either Thai or a Falang man a lot older than her and probably with a baggage from a previous relationship...

Most Thais don't really plan ahead in the way we do.

100k in her bank now will more than likely be seen as better than a possibility of 10M over the next 10 years.

Stealing and stashing cash is a really common behaviour pattern in Thai ladies.

She is also unlikely to place any value in your physical age or appearance, really get over yourself.

You aren't Thai or Korean, so not particularly desirable as a bed-partner.

"Stealing and stashing cash is a really common behaviour pattern in Thai ladies."

Don't you think the above statement is a tad too unfair?

SaNim · April 4, 2012

What if she's saving the money to buy you a surprise present?

Do you have a Bday comming in the next 12 months?

Shurup · April 4, 2012

Shurup I have a lot of respect for you having read a few of your posts so I'm going to be overly harsh.

You're not quite a control freak but you do have issues and feelings of superiority possibly entitlement which reading between the lines you're mentally bullying this girl into compliance with your relationship sop.

Not giving her a budget appears to be more for your morality compass than for the good of the relationship and in some ways your posts show you have a relationship manual that is flawed and setting her up to fail. Almost as if you're not committed to the relationship but could be if she achieves 99% pass rate in negotiating the pitfalls that lead to being the ideal and perfect woman for Shurup. Latest polls are gonna show you're not perfect possibly not even perfect for her!

You stopped her working so that she could be available for you, no judgement but do you see where we come back to that sense of entitlement? What does she do but wait around for you on your month off? Set her a monthly amount in lieu of her missing salary and move on. The money has gone so play a better what if game...

What if she invested it to please you and gain your hard to win respect, got conned, chased the first 50k with another and is too embarrassed to say?

Involve her in setting the ground rules moving forward, assure her there is a forwards (she's probably living in fear/stress) and let her know when she's ready to talk you're willing to listen.

It's not a joint account, it's your account that she has access to and that's the problem. Sort out the financial ambiguity and forget the spy stuff.

If I had written that first post you'd think what a dramatic, wishy washy, controlling prick... and you'd be justified!

Sent from Android please excuse errors in type or judgement

There are some deep thoughts here.

I know I'm not perfect and I know I could have done better with her, actually everything I've done to her I thought was for the better. IF my wife was making all the money in a world and told me she didn't want me to work, I wouldn't have mind that, I would've still kept myself busy somehow. So I though she would be happy to leave that rat race.

I don't go by the manual but I do have the western standarts and I can't get over them and anything other just seems morraly wrong (budget). I wanted my wife/GF to have the same interests as me in accumulating our wealth. Our money has to stay in our family that what I explaned to her and wanted her to do. Even though it seems like our joint account was only my account with her name on it, I didn't think about my money or anything else as MINE, rather than OURS. On the other hand she was always about this is mine and this is ours.

I'm not a control freak nor I play spy games, I don't want that. That incident in Canada I mentioned earlier I noticed after she was on a roll for 3 month, when I logged into the online banking to check on few things. This time when the 2x 50K were gone, I didn't see or touch the bank book for a few month. I had trust in her which in now almost gone.

No matter what she spent the money on, I wouldn't be so pissed about it if she just told me, and I tried to explain it to her many times but she just kept saying I don't remember. I know she went to a reunion party with her university classmates in mid Feb. Even if she wanted to impress everyone and she did something silly like booking an expensive hall or a restaurant with food/boose, whatever, I would've talked to her about it but that would have been it.

Well, to try and make the things better (or finish it) I have to talk to her and she hasn't been online since. A phone reception at where I am is almost non existent in times so I would wait for her to come online and take it from there.

Shurup · April 4, 2012

The link is her Thai classmate in Canada.Do some research on that and you will have your answer.

Can you clarify please?

lannarebirth · April 4, 2012

I see my post to you yesterday didn't make it on to the forum or it was removed, so already a day has been lost. Catch the next plane to Thailand and secure whatever remains of your 1 Million Baht savings. Surprise your girlfriend with a visit and tell her you're taking her to the beach for a surprise vacation while securing your diving and photographic gear. Then never look back. That can be before or after the vacation.

pipo1000 · April 4, 2012

The link is her Thai classmate in Canada.Do some research on that and you will have your answer.

Can you clarify please?

Thai people always want to show off to each other,especially if abroad.I get so much from my boyfriend and I get so much (even when it isn't true) don't you get that from yours?They wind each others up and the wagon starts rolling.

My advise to westerners who take their girlfriend to their home country is always, keep her away from other Thais as far as possible.

ShanePashen · April 4, 2012

Shurup
I am deeply concerned for you after reading your post. I think in your heart you know you don't need a polygraph.

You need to act, & act quickly. My advice is this.

Do you have a best friend, or close family member you can speak frankly & openly with?

Someone who loves you, and has your best interests at heart.

Please recant all the exact details & facts to them, leaving out nothing, and listen without prejudice as to what their advice is.

I have a feeling that you may be quite shocked by their response.

Good luck mate, you need to move quickly with this.

Does this mean things didn't work out with the new gal? Genuinely interested as read all of your previous 2 topics.

Sent from Android please excuse errors in type or judgement

Off topic for OP, but things going fantastic with same girl, looking hard at a subclass 300 prospective spouse visa at the moment.

The correct Agent to handle that

A good prenup, and possibly wedding bells as well.

Shurup · April 4, 2012

What if she's saving the money to buy you a surprise present?

Do you have a Bday comming in the next 12 months?

Yes I have but I told her last year I didn't need anything, I can't imagine this year I would think differently. Just a symbolic present is fine but I don't need anything that expensive.

Shurup · April 4, 2012

I see my post to you yesterday didn't make it on to the forum or it was removed, so already a day has been lost. Catch the next plane to Thailand and secure whatever remains of your 1 Million Baht savings. Surprise your girlfriend with a visit and tell her you're taking her to the beach for a surprise vacation while securing your diving and photographic gear. Then never look back. That can be before or after the vacation.

I'm in Thailand but can't leave work without risking to loose it which would be a greater loss. A good idea but can't be applied to my case.

I should have waited till I cool down before talking to her, too late now, I can't get my words back now. I want to think that she wouldn't do what you think as it's obvious she's sure she would still go to Canada at the end of this month.

Shurup · April 4, 2012

Thai people always want to show off to each other,especially if abroad.I get so much from my boyfriend and I get so much (even when it isn't true) don't you get that from yours?They wind each others up and the wagon starts rolling.

My advise to westerners who take their girlfriend to their home country is always, keep her away from other Thais as far as possible.

Her Thai classmate in Canada is married to a Cambodian guy. They somehow managed to immigrate to Canada so as most immigrants they probably don't have much. However her cousin married to a Dutch who both live in Dubai gets mentioned quite often as well as the content of their bank account.

Not sure if it has to do anything with my situation.

P.S. But I heard that warning many times, try to keep them away from other Thais, not for the reason of trying to compete who has what, but for the reason that other Thais living in Western countries may get "smart" about parting a farang with their house+savings and they pass their knowledge onto the newcommers.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Shurup

2unique · April 4, 2012

Shurup I have a lot of respect for you having read a few of your posts so I'm going to be overly harsh.

You're not quite a control freak but you do have issues and feelings of superiority possibly entitlement which reading between the lines you're mentally bullying this girl into compliance with your relationship sop.

Not giving her a budget appears to be more for your morality compass than for the good of the relationship and in some ways your posts show you have a relationship manual that is flawed and setting her up to fail. Almost as if you're not committed to the relationship but could be if she achieves 99% pass rate in negotiating the pitfalls that lead to being the ideal and perfect woman for Shurup. Latest polls are gonna show you're not perfect possibly not even perfect for her!

You stopped her working so that she could be available for you, no judgement but do you see where we come back to that sense of entitlement? What does she do but wait around for you on your month off? Set her a monthly amount in lieu of her missing salary and move on. The money has gone so play a better what if game...

What if she invested it to please you and gain your hard to win respect, got conned, chased the first 50k with another and is too embarrassed to say?

Involve her in setting the ground rules moving forward, assure her there is a forwards (she's probably living in fear/stress) and let her know when she's ready to talk you're willing to listen.

It's not a joint account, it's your account that she has access to and that's the problem. Sort out the financial ambiguity and forget the spy stuff.

If I had written that first post you'd think what a dramatic, wishy washy, controlling prick... and you'd be justified!

Sent from Android please excuse errors in type or judgement

There are some deep thoughts here.

I know I'm not perfect and I know I could have done better with her, actually everything I've done to her I thought was for the better. IF my wife was making all the money in a world and told me she didn't want me to work, I wouldn't have mind that, I would've still kept myself busy somehow. So I though she would be happy to leave that rat race.

I don't go by the manual but I do have the western standarts and I can't get over them and anything other just seems morraly wrong (budget). I wanted my wife/GF to have the same interests as me in accumulating our wealth. Our money has to stay in our family that what I explaned to her and wanted her to do. Even though it seems like our joint account was only my account with her name on it, I didn't think about my money or anything else as MINE, rather than OURS. On the other hand she was always about this is mine and this is ours.

I'm not a control freak nor I play spy games, I don't want that. That incident in Canada I mentioned earlier I noticed after she was on a roll for 3 month, when I logged into the online banking to check on few things. This time when the 2x 50K were gone, I didn't see or touch the bank book for a few month. I had trust in her which in now almost gone.

No matter what she spent the money on, I wouldn't be so pissed about it if she just told me, and I tried to explain it to her many times but she just kept saying I don't remember. I know she went to a reunion party with her university classmates in mid Feb. Even if she wanted to impress everyone and she did something silly like booking an expensive hall or a restaurant with food/boose, whatever, I would've talked to her about it but that would have been it.

Well, to try and make the things better (or finish it) I have to talk to her and she hasn't been online since. A phone reception at where I am is almost non existent in times so I would wait for her to come online and take it from there.

I went overly harsh just to provoke thought, force an internal review and provide a handbrake to any cul de sacs you might not be able to back out of buddy... Good Luck with whatever course of action you pursue

Sent from Android please excuse errors in type or judgement

regine · April 4, 2012

My advise to westerners who take their girlfriend to their home country is always, keep her away from other Thais as far as possible.

Yes, cultural isolation is key to keeping a foreign spouse. You may also want to try threatening them with arrest and deportation. If that doesn't work emotional and economic abuse work just as well. You should also have children with her and use them as leverage.

With these tips you're on the right track to having complete control through spousal abuse, whoops, I mean a "happy marriage" with your Thai spouse.

swisstouristpattaya · April 4, 2012

ah ah ah,,,,she got you!

farang are all the same,ladies become madam,and then you feel your pain when bank account is empty.

i will never giveba c card to a woman except my mom.she can get cash.why you need credit card anyway?since when love=money?

Edited April 4, 2012 by swisstouristpattaya

Shurup · April 4, 2012

ah ah ah,,,,she got you!

farang are all the same,ladies become madam,and then you feel your pain when bank account is empty.

i will never giveba c card to a woman except my mom.she can get cash.why you need credit card anyway?since when love=money?

CC is for the convenience and there was never a single hick up with her using it.

Did you try to book a flight for someone usning YOUR CC or without using a CC at all? Not so smooth is it?

Edited April 4, 2012 by Shurup

HidyHo · April 4, 2012

Regarding Koreans ... Korean pop-culture is basically *en vogue* in Asia, thanks to popularity of K-drama, K-movies, and K-pops.

Most Asian countries now show Korean dramas. Older folks are into historical dramas and younger generations are into modern, tear-jerking love story dramas. Korean boy and girl band concerts are often sold out in hours in countries where they probably don't even understand the lyrics.

When I here in Singapore around 2001-2002, I could hardly find any Korean restaurants and now they are everywhere. BKK always had more Korean places but now there are more places and they are packed with Thais. Back when I used to live in BKK (left end of 2004), once Thais that could speak Korean words that I knew were few caddies. They could give yardage and wind direction information. Now, even my Thai ex-gf calls me "oppa" which is how a female address an older male. Some people call me "ah-juh-see" which means ... I'm getting old :-(

In Singapore, they even have Korean TV channel that is dubbed in Mandarin. Many Korean male idols are extremely popular with Asian women. Just few years, I think it was "Rain" who was mobbed at BKK airport like Beatles and MJ in the past.

I wish I was a young decent looking Korean male in BKK or anywhere in Asia. They would give "Ippun-man" run for his money.

manarak · April 4, 2012

Shurup,

I think first thing is to get a clear view of what is wrong - is it about how much money she costs you (including papamama support) or because she lies to you to send money to papamama?

If it is only about the lies agree to send the money yourself every month, and I think a jek jek session is in order - explain her if she lies to you about anything, she might lose everything. quickly.

TommoPhysicist · April 4, 2012

ah ah ah,,,,she got you!

farang are all the same,ladies become madam,and then you feel your pain when bank account is empty.

i will never giveba c card to a woman except my mom.she can get cash.why you need credit card anyway?since when love=money?

CC is for the convenience and there was never a single hick up with her using it.

Did you try to book a flight for someone usning YOUR CC or without using a CC at all? Not so smooth is it?

You can't book a flight with your Thai bank card, it isn't a credit card and it doesn't work like a credit card.

You can book a flight in Thailand, then pay using your Thai bank card in an ATM, but you can also pay for the flight using cash at a 7/11 store.

There is almost zero advantage for you using a joint account in Thailand. (I actually can't think of any advantage at all)

Shurup · April 4, 2012

Shurup,

I think first thing is to get a clear view of what is wrong - is it about how much money she costs you (including papamama support) or because she lies to you to send money to papamama?

If it is only about the lies agree to send the money yourself every month, and I think a jek jek session is in order - explain her if she lies to you about anything, she might lose everything. quickly.

Yes it's more about her lying than anything else

Shurup · April 4, 2012

ah ah ah,,,,she got you!

farang are all the same,ladies become madam,and then you feel your pain when bank account is empty.

i will never giveba c card to a woman except my mom.she can get cash.why you need credit card anyway?since when love=money?

CC is for the convenience and there was never a single hick up with her using it.

Did you try to book a flight for someone usning YOUR CC or without using a CC at all? Not so smooth is it?

You can't book a flight with your Thai bank card, it isn't a credit card and it doesn't work like a credit card.

You can book a flight in Thailand, then pay using your Thai bank card in an ATM, but you can also pay for the flight using cash at a 7/11 store.

There is almost zero advantage for you using a joint account in Thailand. (I actually can't think of any advantage at all)

I actually mean a real CC. She is an authorised user with her own card and number on my Canadian Master Card. When I'm at work, I can't go to ATM or 7-11 to make a payment (don't know even how). If I want her to meet me somewhere after work so I don't have to come back to BKK, I would just buy her a plane ticket. With my CC I can't as some airlines won't even allow to book it if a cardholder and passenger names aren't matching, other airlines want a carholder come to their head office to prove the booking and that the card wasn't stolen.

Nothing fancy about a CC, it's just very convenient to have one, and the balance on that card isn't huge anyways, I don't want it to be huge.

TommoPhysicist · April 4, 2012

Let her book her own tickets in Thailand.

You have a Thai bank account in your name.

She has a Thai bank account in her name.

You use the internet to transfer money from your Thai account to her Thai account.

She pays for her ticket by ATM or 7/11.

This seems to be more about you being lazy, than her needing a Canadian CC.

Shurup · April 4, 2012

Well, had a chance to chat to her today for a bit (now she's insisting on taking a poly test herself).

We brainstormed it together and came up with 60,000 that went missing, but that was with a lot of rounding up in her favour.

Still there is 40,000 that's not accounted for, she gotta think a bit more.

Shurup · April 4, 2012

Let her book her own tickets in Thailand.

You have a Thai bank account in your name.

She has a Thai bank account in her name.

You use the internet to transfer money from your Thai account to her Thai account.

She pays for her ticket by ATM or 7/11.

This seems to be more about you being lazy, than her needing a Canadian CC.

Does it work for the international flights as well? I had to drag my ass once to the ANA head office in BKK to pay for her flight in person as they were afraid the card was stolen? If I booked myself and her together, it would have been fine, but I don't book my own tickets, my company does.

farangme · April 4, 2012

Didn't you know lying is a Thai trait tought from youth? They will lie and insist they are not, even when confronted with proof. That's just when the explanation or reason for it changes. It starts as a way to avoid conflict. If pressed, it becomes an effort to save face.

Best way to handle it is to try and talk openly and don't create opportunities or allow situations where things can go sideways. Sounds like you're away for periods of time for work. That's a tough one! Too much time to herself.

You've given her the time and money, travel abroad, etc, and with appearently no restrictions. Just a kid in a candy store.

My two scents: she's pushing it for what she can and either doesn't really care if it ends (thinks she'll just find another), or doesn't believe you'll end it, which your postings suggest your reluctant to do, i.e. grasping at straws like a polygraph. For who knows why, could be lots of reasons, she's skimming money from you and lying about it! You know this, but just don't want to believe it!

All your lamenting of "How could she do this? She has so much to lose.", forget about that train of thought.

Seems you have two options:

1. Forget what's already happened, put controls in place, and adjust your western values relationship expectations. You're in a Thai/Western relationship, 'not in Kansas anymore.' If something else starts to not add up, which may happen, that starts you grasping at straws, you gave it a shot and need to bail.

2. If you truly can't deal with the lying, irregardless why she's done it this time, because she is, bail now because it will likely happen again.

Sometimes reality sucks. Sorry.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

farangme · April 4, 2012

PS: forgot to mention the Korean 'friend' thing. She really asked you to finance a trip for her to Korea? Coincidence? Sounds like she might have/wants a gik and has the balls to ask you to finance it. Wow...not a good sign, IMHO.

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

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