Trip Report For Phnom Penh, Cambodia

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The wife and I just returned from a four-day trip to Phnom Penh, a first to that destination for both of us, and it was an interesting experience after living in BKK full-time for some years. I did all the planning and arrangements, and I wasn't really sure what to expect, so everything was a bit of a surprise, mostly of the good variety. So I thought it might be helpful to put down some of the basics for the things we encountered.

Before continuing, let me say that I live in BKK by choice and I generally like living here. I'm not any kind of disgruntled, disheartened cynic about BKK or Thailand. But there definitely were some attractive elements about Phnom Penh compared to BKK, which I'll mention below. Certainly enough to make it a pleasant holiday stop. Not sure if enough to make it an attractive place to relocate, if that's even feasible.

VISAS/ENTRY

Regarding visas and entry, westerners generally need a 30-day tourist visa for travel, which can either be purchased at the PP Airport on arrival for $20 U.S. or purchased online in advance from the Cambodia Ministry of Foreign Affairs web site.

The so-called EVisa costs $25 ($20 plus a $5 processing fee) and you need to upload a digital photo and pay online via credit or debit card. I did the EVisa, and got my PDF file visa document emailed back to me the next business day, although their website advises to allow for three business days. Once you receive the EVisa, you're supposed to print out and take along two copies (B&W is OK), one for entry and the other for exiting the country. For Thai nationals, no visa is required at all. .

Upon arrival at PP Airport, they have designated Immigration desks for EVisa holders, though the airport itself is a relatively small place and I never encountered any long lines or waits, unlike BKK. One different thing about entering or exiting Cambodia is the Immigration staff there have electronic/digital fingerprint scanners, and we were asked to provide our finger and thumb prints both on arrival and departure. Never encountered that in Thailand. Probably took about 3 minutes or so from start to finish to complete the Immigration desk process via EVisa.

AIR TRAVEL

We took AirAsia from BKK to PP, purchased our tickets online via one of their regular sales, and ended up paying -- with everything included such as the optional fees for guaranteeing our two seats were together, bringing along one check-in bag up to 20 kilos, and AirAsia's travel delay/medical/luggage insurance for the two of us -- about $200 U.S. total for the two persons roundtrip (meaning about $100 per person RT).

Today, I priced the same trip for next week and found AA's regular fare per person at about $235 per person including taxes, but not including any seat assignment, baggage or insurance options. Obviously it pays to shop for one of AA's sales. AirAsia has one daily flight from BKK to PP that leaves mid afternoon and returns just before dinner time, with the air travel time each way a bit over one hour, although it feels shorter in that by the time you get to altitude, it's almost time then for the plane to start descending for its landing. The AirAsia flights were uneventful and reasonably on-time.

MONEY

Speaking of money, for me as an American, one of the surprising and nice things about travel to PP was to discover that the U.S. $ is their principal currency there, especially in the tourism world. If you go to an ATM, you'll get U.S. dollar currency dispensed in all different denomination sizes... I did a $100 ATM withdrawal, and was expecting to get five $20 bills, and instead the ATM spit out two $50 bills.

So the basic deal is, U.S. money is accepted pretty much everywhere around Phnom Penh. They do have a local currency called the riel (pronounced REL). One U.S. dollar is equal to about 4,000 riel. So when you pay for things in U.S. dollars, if your change involves any amounts less than a dollar, you'll get that back in paper riels -- 50, 100, 500 or 1000 denominations, the 1000 bill being equal to about 25 cents U.S.

I didn't know the history, but Wikipedia has this interesting history of how the U.S. dollar became Cambodia's principal currency:

Between 1975 and 1980 [the Khmer Rouge period], the country had no monetary system. A second currency, also named "riel", has been issued since April 1, 1980. However, this currency has never gained much public acceptance, with most Cambodians preferring gold or foreign currency.^[1] The UN peacekeeping operation of 1993 injected a large quantity of U.S. dollars into the local economy. As a result, the dollar has become the country's common currency.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_riel

The banking system in Cambodia appears to be far less developed and extensive than Bangkok or Thailand in general. ATMs weren't nearly as ever-present as they are around BKK, and at times it took a bit of looking to find one nearby. There also were a couple of occasions where the ATMs I found were non-functional. The ATM itself was on, but apparently not connected or communicating with the network.

Just outside the airport Immigration desks as you're walking to the outside, there's a lone ATM. The day we arrived, that ATM was on, but was non-functional. There were no other ATMs in sight, so I was trying to figure out how I was going to pay for taxi fare. Fortunately in checking, if you continue onward 20 feet or so and walk outside from the terminal and then make a hard left turn, there's another grouping of ATMs 100 feet or so back along the front wall area of the terminal building near some fast-food shops.

During our stay there, I used two different banks' ATM. One from Canadia Bank charged no extra fee for using my U.S. VISA debit cards. The other from ANZ Royal Bank, which seems to be one of the larger banking players in PP, charged a $5 fee for each withdrawal.

BTW, as an aside, my Thai wife didn't know anything about Cambodian riels or what the exchange rate was vs. the U.S. $ or the Thai baht, for that matter. So when I handed her a handful of 1,000 riel bills, she was pretty happy and excited -- until I finally explained to her what they were worth.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

LOCAL TRANSPORT:

PP has both regular car taxis and the Cambodian version of tuk tuks, which I must say I found far preferable in both operation, style and comfort to the Thai variety. The Cambodian tuk tuk is basically a kind of double-row seated carriage with roof that's pulled by a motorcycle. Easy and comfortable to sit in, with room for two adults facing forward and two more facing rear-ward.

As far as fares are concerned, it's all a matter of distance and negotiation. There are lots of tuk tuks around in PP, and we were constantly getting hailed by tuk tuk drivers as we walked around town asking if we needed/wanted a ride. $1 to $2 seemed to be a normal fare for a one-way trip about town. But I recall one time after emerging from a supermarket, a tuk tuk driver had just let off a passenger, and so I asked how much to go to a particular street. His answer was $4, I said thanks and turned to walk away, he called after me to say how much, I said $2, he said fine.

Now there's both good and bad to say about traveling in PP. Unlike BKK, all the tuk tuk drivers we had drove sanely and safely, and all seemed very amenable to negotiating over fares. They also tended to drive a fair amount slower than their BKK counterparts, making travel there relaxing and enjoyable, vs. hair-raising with their BKK brethren.

The downside was, we discovered a lot of the tuk tuk drivers seemed far less knowledgeable of their own city than their BKK counterparts. A couple of different times, even after clearly stating our destination and the driver claiming he knew where/want we wanted, we ended up on extended trips around town with our drivers periodically stopping and checking with their driver acquaintances about how/where to find the places they supposedly were taking us. But at least, we did get to our intended destinations and there was no kind of Thai-style ripoffs or attempts to steer us as tourists to some shop or club where the driver was going to earn a commission.

I should have mentioned, re the PP airport, there's a regular taxi booth there as you exit the international terminal that, as of the date of our travel, was selling $9 fares into downtown from the airport, which normally is about a half hour to 45 minute drive, depending on traffic. Tuk tuks will make the same trip for maybe $5 or $6, and can be hailed outside the gates of the terminal, though they're a bit harder to manage when you're carrying any larger luggage.

One thing that's a bit bewildering about PP is the traffic system, or what I might say, the lack of one. While most of the roads we encountered around town were well-maintained, there seemed to be very very few traffic lights anywhere in the city, and not many stop signs either. So at most intersections, it was pretty much everyone on their own. Perhaps there's some Cambodian driver etiquette that known and understood by locals there, but I'm not sure what that would be. In any event, I wasn't doing the driving, and I never saw any kind of vehicle accident during our time in the city. Overall, motorcycles seemed to outnumber cars on the road. And even on a lot of the larger streets in the city, locals on regular bicycles managed to ride along alongside the rest of the motorized traffic, and seemed to be given their space by other drivers.. I would have felt comfortable on a bicycle there, something I'd never say about riding in Bangkok.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

LANGUAGE and ATTITUDE

I probably should have mentioned it earlier, but another nice and surprising thing about Phnom Penh was the extent to which pretty much everyone we encountered there (admittedly in a tourist setting) spoke decent to quite good English. Even the tuk tuk drivers and taxi drivers we encountered were at least somewhat English conversant -- and the overall language situation there struck me as being vastly far ahead of Thailand and even BKK in terms of their English language capability.

Similarly, there seemed to be a generally more pleasant attitude and manner among all the service staff we encountered in different places there -- hotels, restaurants, stores, transport and elsewhere. It's impossible to generalize something like that across an entire city. But it felt in our experience like a refreshing change from Bangkok where too often (and I say this as a resident) the local service attitude is indifferent, lacking or just plain inattentive. Thailand may have the reputation as the Land of Smiles, but in our experience, the Cambodians appear to be doing a much better job in turning that marketing slogan into an actual, real day-to-day experience.

ODDS and ENDS

Pedestrian Life

Unlike BKK, on the good side, the main streets around PP were pretty easy to walk on, the sidewalks were wide in a lot of areas, and there are a fair number of park areas around the center of the city. To walk around town and get a feel of the place, you didn't have to fight your way past scores of food vendors or T-shirt stands or fake Viagra tables. And I never had to make way for a motorcycle speeding down the sidewalk where I was walking.

No 7/11s???

Also unlike BKK, on the bad side, there didn't seem to be any presence of 7/11s in Phnom Penh at all, or any other kind of chain of local convenience stores. There were various small markets, but no recurring brand that I could spot and recognize as a place to go when you wanted to buy a soda or a snack or something similar.

Limited Western Fast-Food

In the same manner, there also didn't seem to be a lot of the western fast food places present as yet in PP. Maybe someone who's spent more time in the city will correct me. But during our stay, we saw a lot of KFC outlets, and a couple of Pizza Co. outlets and just one Swensen's shop. But I didn't see any McDonald's during our stay, no Starbucks, and not a lot of the other similar kinds of retail places.

Cash vs. Cards

Forgot to mention this in the money section above, but somewhat to my surprise, a lot of the regular restaurant and cafe establishments we visited around town would only take cash and not bank cards. And I'm talking about even larger, established places where you wouldn't think paying for dinner or glasses of wine at a wine bar with a bank card would be a problem. But it was, much moreso than with comparable kinds of places here in BKK. So I ended up using and carrying cash a lot more there than I ever need to use here at home.

Local SIM Cards

Before leaving, we checked with our various Thai mobile carriers about the prospect of using our Thai mobile SIMS while in Cambodia.. And all the answers we got back were bad and very expensive, as you might expect for international roaming. So once in PP, without any 7/11s to be found, we set about finding a local shop selling Cambodian SIM cards. They seemed to be stocked by various kinds of shops in various places... But we found a big shop near our hotel that had a crowd of Cambodians gathered around doing various mobile phone things.

From what I could pick up, there are three or four main GSM mobile phone operators there with names like Beeline, MetFone and Mfone. We ended up with a MetFone SIM that cost $2 U.S and then another $2 worth of calling time that lasted us for our entire stay and quite a few calls, though I never could get a clear explanation of just how many minutes of calling time we had received. To buy the SIM, the shop operators wanted to see our passport and make a photocopy of the cover page.

Here's what Wikipedia shows for its entry on Cambodian mobile phone carriers.

Tuk Tuk by the Day

Again, should have mentioned above, if you can find a good/reliable, English-speaking tuk tuk driver, another option is to hire them by the day for $15 or $20 U.S. And then they'll take you wherever you want to go in the city, wait while you're eating or shopping or whatever, and then take you onward to your next stop.

After one day of going freelance and not being sure how knowledgeable a driver you're going to get, we did the hire by day approach for a second day, and it made things much easier and quicker. We made a lot of trips and stops around town that day, so I'm sure we would have spent as much if not more if we had booked individual trips. And I'm very sure we probably would have wasted more time and not have been able to make as productive use of our limited time in the city.

Make Way Please

Another interesting difference from Bangkok. At various times as we were driving around town, a police convoy or an ambulance would come along with lights and sirens blaring... And every time we encountered that, the Cambodian drivers all would not necessarily stop but definitely move to the right curb lane and leave an open lane for the emergency vehicles to pass.

Cambodian vs. Thai

A kind of funny thing throughout our visit... My wife has medium tan skin and is from Khon Kaen originally. So throughout our stay in PP, every time we'd be walking about and shopping, the local shop and store staff would start talking to her in Khmer... And she, understanding some Lao but absolutely no Khmer, had absolutely no idea what they were talking about. So after a while, she finally got used to and comfortable with gently easing those conversations into English.

But I laughingly thought it was a good thing, because at least, I figured, if the locals thought my wife was Cambodian, perhaps they'd be more accommodating or at least less likely to attempt any kind of tourist scamming. BTW, during our stay, we did find some locals who at least understood a bit of Thai and how to say hello and such, but only one Cambodian shop clerk in our travels who actually was fluent in Thai.

Speaking of skin tones, I had the idea going in (I'm not sure based on what) that Cambodian people and women would tend to be darker toned than the average Thai. But at least around PP, there were A LOT of pretty light skinned Cambodians... And blond/light brown colored hair seems to be a very popular choice among the 20-something women.

One night, while my wife was having a Cambodian massage, I walked nearby to the Cambodiana Hotel and had some drinks in the lobby bar while waiting, including a $4.50 round of quite good Guinness. The very pleasant 20-something waitress there who handled my orders was quite light-skinned, gave very good service and spoke perfect English.

So when I was paying my bill to leave, I asked her about that and my idea of Khmer people as a visitor from Thailand, and figured I'd safely compliment her by noting how she for some reason seemed to have a very light skin tone. And she laughingly replied that yes she did, because her family was part Khmer and part Chinese.

Edited April 5, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Meanwhile, while I was there, there were a couple of reports in the local news that reminded me a lot of life in Thailand.

One was funny...

The other was sad...

[CHANGOVER]

TGJBKK, good reports. I've only done a visa run to Cambodia so other 'touristy' info about PP etc will be appreciated.

Cheers

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Funny thing... Although I wasn't doing it and didn't need it, I did wonder if the Air Asia flight to PP would work as a same day visa-exempt trip for those wanting an airport entry to Thailand.

The AirAsia flight is scheduled to arrive PP at 4:35 pm and then turn around and depart back to BKK at 5:20 pm. On our trip, we had to wait for a check-in luggage to be deplaned. But without that, we certainly could have cleared Immigration at PP in just a few minutes.

But I'm not sure whether that would give enough time for someone to then turn around and check back in for the return flight to BKK and go thru security in the reverse direction. On our visit, the lines and waits at Cambodian immigration and security at the airport were short and pretty quick.

[BusyBee123]

Great report.

[cardholder]

Excellent reports.

I think it is difficult to compare BKK with PP.

PP has a population of 2m is immature in terms of development and has little to attract it in the same way as BKK. It is not exactly a hub for anything (except perhaps a twin-centre visit with Siem Reap.

Did you travel around - the Royal Palace, Wat Phnom, Killing Fields ?

It is about 5 hours from Siem Reap (and Angkor wat) and less than 3 hours to Sihanoukvile, a couple of hours from Kampot and Kep - so it can be used as a start point for wider exploration of Cambodia.

It is worth looking for Air asia offers - my last trip was 5,000 Baht for 2 of us (even less the time before)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for the nice comments...

As it was my/our first trip, I had original plans to do the typical tourist historical destination visits in PP that Cardholder listed above. But my wife works hard at her job and doesn't have a lot of holiday time, so I deferred and we spent more of our time going around the city to visit various shopping places... Central Market... Russian Market, Central Mall and Lucky Department Store, Sorya Mall. I'm doing those names from memory here late in the evening. BTW, I had my own shopping-oriented agenda that I'll elaborate on a bit later re the venerable TV topic of imbibing.

It probably deserves further comment here and a section on SHOPPING. Since, what I discovered is that the shopping venues there, as you might expect from a much less developed and smaller city than BKK, are far more modest and don't have anywhere near the range of medium to upper end products as are available here.

Basically, most of the places we visited, even places they called malls or shopping centers, looked in large part a lot like some of the upper floor sections in MBK where local small vendors have a table space or small cubicle to display their goods, as opposed to actual stores. And I don't mean part of their malls were configured that way. I mean most of their shopping centers consisted mostly of that style retail.

That said, it was fun to browse around the Central Market and take in its unique architecture and gold-colored domes. It struck me as kind of like an indoors and somewhat better organized version of BKK's Chatuchak Market. While the Russian Market, also indoors, is a popular gathering for every imaginable kind of bric-a-brac and tourist souvenir you can imagine, along with all kinds of decorations, clothing, bags and on and on -- all crammed together ceiling high with very narrow walking passages between rows of shops.

I could be wrong, but as best as I could find, there seemed to be at best one or two movies houses/cineplexes in the city...obviously a far cry from BKK. I spotted one with I think four screens at the City Mall location near PP's so-called Olympic Stadium. There may have been another smaller movie house somewhere in the city, but clearly pretty limited.

The one venue that seemed to come closest to the Thai style mall was the Sorya Center, which is a few blocks away from the Central Market. Six or seven stories at least, air conditioned, escalators, local fast food type sit down restaurants inside, electronics shops, and a lot of the smaller retail vendors as well.

It was kind of funny and interesting. As we were browsing through the Central Market, I spotted at one point a dress that I liked for my wife and pointed it out to her... She tried it on in the vendor's stall, and they were talking back and forth about it in English. Finally, my wife asked how much and the shop keeper replied $20. My wife answered $15, the shop keeper came down a bit, my wife stayed at $15, the shop keeper came down a bit more...and they finally settled at $15... OK, fair enough. Then later that day, at a different place in the city, as we were shopping, we spotted the same exact dress, even down to the color, at another shop. Stopped and inquired of the price. The shop clerk's answer was $25.

We didn't do a lot of it, but PP does seem to have a pretty decent nightlife of bars and clubs and restaurants and such. And during the daytime, there were lots of places that offered pretty good bakery items, perhaps reflecting the former French influence there. We also found a fair mix of international food available, including decent Japanese and Korean restaurants, and even a place called Munich Beer that brews its own German style beer along with some German type food and a lot of Asian food offerings.

Most of the places pertaining to tourists are clustered along the major boulevard, Sisowath Quay, that runs along the large Tonle Sap river that runs thru the city. Along the city side of the street are all the shops and restaurants and hotels and such... But along the river side of the street is a wide and pretty clean and well maintained parkway for walking, exercising in the evening, or just sitting to watch the world and the river go by. No beach...but a very pleasant place and something I've never seen anything comparable to along any section of the Chao Phraya River in BKK -- though I certainly wish we had it here.... Not a single T-shirt or sunglass stand I saw anywhere along the parkway. Unlike the Thais, the Cambodian authorities appear to have at least some sense that not every square foot of their city should be turned over to selling souvenirs and hawking all varieties of junk.

I liked the vibe of Phnom Penh, and there certainly were a lot more nighlife type places we could have explored if had been staying longer. But during the daytime, I can understand, once you've covered the historical places mentioned above and done whatever shopping you intend, the options are much more limited than in BKK.

When I was talking with the tours desk guy at the hotel where we stayed, he had a chart showing something about a shooting range outside of town. So I asked about that, and was informed it was a place where you could go and, if I recall correctly, he said you could pretty much use any gun you liked from AK-47s on down and shoot to your heart's content at body-shaped targets -- all for the price of $40 U.S. per full magazine of ammunition. Not exactly on my list of things to do, but it might appeal to some.

There's also the NagaWorld Casino there for those who are gambling inclined. We went inside and looked around and had lunch at a quite good Korean restaurant there called Jeju. NagaWorld is a huge, especially for PP, Las Vegas-style complex, complete with its own hotel, at least a half dozen or so different eateries, and of course loads of slot machines and, I believe, varieties of card games.

Saw an awful lot of quite attractive young, unescorted women in very short skirts and tight dresses coming in and out of the place during our time there... Not sure what was going on with that... Hmmm... On a recent travel fair held at the Queen Sirikit National Convention Center in BKK, before our trip, the NagaWorld folks had a booth there and were selling package trips including airfare and hotel stays at their property.

It's hard to quantify, but I also felt that the weather in PP, while warm/hot like BKK, didn't feel as sticky or muggy. But I haven't sat down to compare the relative humidities on the days we were there. It might also have something to do with PP being a smaller and less developed place with more city open spaces than BKK and less development to radiate heat.

Edited April 5, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[craigt3365]

Excellent trip report. I was in PP one time about 10 years ago. Another visit is needed for sure. I was single back then and remember some pretty dodgy areas after dark. A few expats I met in the bars recommended taking a scooter taxi back to my hotel as opposed to walking the 1km.

I found the food along the river to be fairly expensive. I thought PP was OK, but not much to do. I think my next trip will be to cross the border via land into Snooky and work my way north from there.

Thanks!!!

[4evermaat]

can anyone comment on internet? mobile sim and/or wifi?

"2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from TV android app.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

...remember some pretty dodgy areas after dark. A few expats I met in the bars recommended taking a scooter taxi back to my hotel as opposed to walking the 1km.

I suppose PP is like most other cities... all have their share of problems sometimes...and the rest of the time things are fine.

During our stay, we were walking around at night quite a bit...and never saw any problem or felt any danger.

The one thing we were advised, and I read before we arrived, was to be careful when walking on the streets and even riding in tuk tuks about motorcycle riding snatch and grab thefts... The advice was to keep a good hold on your belongings and not hold things like cameras and mobile phones freely outside when you're riding in the tuk tuk.

Probably as always, exercise prudent caution, be aware of your surroundings... Don't carry more cards or cash than needed for the day/night...

But overall, PP didn't strike me as any kind of particularly dangerous place in its current edition.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

can anyone comment on internet? mobile sim and/or wifi?

Many of the hotels and restaurants we saw or researched seemed to have free wifi available, and it worked fine for the basic browsing type stuff we were doing.

As mentioned above, we got a local SIM card for very low cost...but we only used it for calling...not for data...as we had free wifi available in our hotel and other places we were hanging out throughout the day and night.

[phomsanuk]

Wonderful, I would have moved there years ago if there had been a decent hospital.

[smokie36]

Regarding purchasing the visa on arrival using Baht. You can but they charge 1000 Baht for this so double the cost than if you use US$.

[smokie36]

can anyone comment on internet? mobile sim and/or wifi?

"2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from TV android app.

Mobile sim is easily purchased and cheap. Connectivity is similar to Bangkok.

[Sateev]

can anyone comment on internet? mobile sim and/or wifi?

"2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from TV android app.

First, thanks to TallGuyJohn for great reports. We were there about a month ago, and had pretty much the same impressions.

As for internet, walking out of the airport, there is at least one kiosk selling SIM cards. It was Hello, and they were $10 for the two of us, including some airtime. The internet access was generally good, and not expensive at all. We were there for almost three weeks, and I think I added another $5 for internet. International roaming (I had to call my bank in the US, because they froze my ATM card) was HORRIBLY expensive, like $2 a minute, but after I figured it out, we just used Skype. The sound quality was much better than the overseas phone connection (using the hotel's wifi), and $0.02 per minute...

WiFi in most places was OK, but not fast. A bit of research shows that 1Mbit service is at the upper end of the service scale, and is quite expensive compared to Thailand. However, it seems to be changing rapidly, so I expect it to catch up in the next year or two..

Contrary toTallGuyJohn, I AM one of those who is finally fed up with Thai shenanigans, particularly Immigration whimsy. My wife is NOT Thai, so I have very little advantage in Thailand. We are strongly considering moving to Phnom Penh, the only major impediment being health care. It may be a deal breaker. But, otherwise, the vibe is much better (at least for now), and the people are more open and friendly than Thais ever were in the 30 or so years I have been either visiting or living in Thailand. We also spent a bunch of time in Sihanoukville, and really liked it, so we have some thinking to do over the next few months.

Thanks again for the very informative report.

[liveforever]

Great report, glad you liked it; my first trip there was in 2000, and I've been nearly every year since for khmer new year. Things are very different now compared to then, its feel a lot safer for a start but you still need you wits about you at night. But a totally agree with you and love it too.

Kind regards

[4evermaat]

Thanks for the replies. And the post is excellent.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Regarding purchasing the visa on arrival using Baht. You can but they charge 1000 Baht for this so double the cost than if you use US$.

Well, 1,000 baht works out to about $32 vs. paying $25 for the EVisa online in advance vs. paying $20 in U.S. currency for visa upon arrival.

Still the difference between $20 and $32 is more than the cost of a taxi sedan ride from the airport into the central city area.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Contrary toTallGuyJohn, I AM one of those who is finally fed up with Thai shenanigans, particularly Immigration whimsy. My wife is NOT Thai, so I have very little advantage in Thailand. We are strongly considering moving to Phnom Penh, the only major impediment being health care. It may be a deal breaker. But, otherwise, the vibe is much better (at least for now), and the people are more open and friendly than Thais ever were in the 30 or so years I have been either visiting or living in Thailand. We also spent a bunch of time in Sihanoukville, and really liked it, so we have some thinking to do over the next few months.

Good info on the SIM-based internet world... I didn't get into that arena on our recent trip, so it's good to have that piece filled in for future travel and for everyone else's info.

Actually, I too have felt rising frustration with the way the government here is handling (or not handling) things in a variety of ways... immigration... public safety.... flooding, etc etc... But every time people complain about those kinds of things, there are some here who break into a chorus of "well if you don't like it, why not just leave or go back where you came from." When I stay around home here, I have a perfectly fine life. But when I start reading the news about what's going on in society around me, it's pretty depressing. Hmmm...

I'm not sure Cambodia overall is a better life choice than Thailand all things considered, but it definitely did surprise me what a generally pleasant place it seems to be, and a refreshing change from Thailand even for shorter stays.

Health care is definitely one of those important issues to consider, especially for someone in their retirement years. I didn't delve into that seriously just for a quick vacation trip. But from what I've read, the standard of health care there is pretty far behind what's available in Thailand. If that's in fact true, it certainly would be a concern and factor to consider.

Another consideration is the long-term or ongoing visa situation there vs. Thailand. I couldn't find much official on the subject of anything other than tourist visa... But I saw some posts here on TV talking about people being able to pay $250 or $300 a year and somehow their status would be made fine in Cambodia... Also some things that seemed to suggest the rules and regs there are much more hospitable for a farang wanting to do some kind of business there... But then again, as a caveat, those are deeper issues going beyond what I got into for a vacation trip.

But I'd certainly like to know and hear more about those kinds of issues for Cambodia... It's not inconceivable that things for farangs in Thailand, or for society at large, could take a turn for the worse in significant ways at some point in the future.

Another thing to keep is mind, of course, is that one's impressions as a short stay tourist certainly can be different than those of someone who's lived full-time in someplace for a period of years. On a week's visit, everything looks shiny and great. But once you've lived somewhere for years, you learn and begin to see the faults and flaws much more closely.

Edited April 6, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, for anyone who's been there more than me, can you answer...

What do Cambodians in PP and city places do for the kinds of things that 7/11s provide here???

That definitely seemed to be a missing piece, and I overheard other tourists constantly asking the hotel staff the same kinds of things... where to go for a quick shopping for toothpaste, or shampoo, or sodas, etc etc...

[emilyb]

There are a variety of minimarts around town (Smile is one chain, for example) that fill the 7-11 niche, though the vast majority of Khmer people probably wouldn't want to spend the extra money to shop in one as the population is still pretty poor. The Western and wealthy Khmer also have grocery stores like Lucky Supermarket that are reminiscent of a smaller Villa, maybe. Expat society is roughly divided along a few axes, NGO/diplomatic/missionary/professional services types fill out the area called BKK in large part, then there are the teachers, then the retirees and more blue collar expats and then a mix of everyone else. People live all over, but the preponderance of Western-focused stuff is either (check google maps for Independence Monument as a the anchor point) North of Sihanouk Blvd or South of Sihanouk Boulevard - primarily East of Monivong. The Northern half is mostly the Riverside area of the old French Quarter and the Southern side is mostly BKK (Boueng Keng Kang). Yes, there's a neighborhood ironcically named after Bangkok. This is where you'll find the vast majority - but certainly not all - of the conveniences and things you'll need, including supermarkets, coffee shops, convenience stores, mobile phone HQs, wine shops, specialty restaurants, fair trade earth friendly gingko-biloba bistros, fancy indoor gyms - and even 5 official Apple Resellers (I mention because it's so bizarre). The markets in these areas and pharmacies and such sell less quantity of a much wider Western variety of products than you'll find in BKK, except possibly in Paragon or something (but still have many things you'll never see in Thailand). There are no import restrictions on most things, so you'll find all kinds of deodorant, snack food, soft drinks, beer, cigars, sunscreen, candy - you name it - from all over the world. Check the expiry dates, though

On the question of mobile, 3G access is widely available and considerably better than in Thailand, but like many countries they're more strict about SIM cards and getting one with 3G is most reliably and easily done by going to the HQ of the company (I recommend Mobitel (a.k.a Cellcard) if you're staying in PP or Metfone in the provinces) and handling it there where the staff speak English, can explain everything and will activate your phone. Many smaller shops (all?) won't sell you a fully activated card and have no idea how it works. Mobitel's HQ is on Sihanouk near Independence Monument, so it's a short trip. Pitch in $5-10 and you'll never use up the 4GB that gets you. Unlimited is just a bit more. USB dongles are widely available as well, but so is wifi. Wired internet (DSL) is about $80 a month, but quite speedy. I'd rate it against Thailand any day. The only change is that you get a few more random service drops and things in Cambodia, and the occasional rolling brownout.

Medical care isn't what it is in Bangkok by any stretch, something that can be said of every Asian country frankly, but there are nascent international hospitals including one owned by Dusit (under its Bangkok Hospital Group brand). The general expat opinion seems to be that for most little things you go to this Aussie nurse who runs a doctor staffed clinic, for anything bigger you go to and for major anything you go to Bangkok if possible. I met a guy who got stuck there with a pulomonary embolism that had been missed in Vietnam and he was fairly happy with his treatment. As a retiree I'd probably feel better in Bangkok, but within 5-10 years PP looks guaranteed to have at least one decent facility for most things - some would probably argue it's there now, I have no idea.

As for staying, yeah, it's laissez faire. Get an "Ordinary Visa" at the embassy here or at the airport (or land border) there for $25 and then, once you're in town, take it to any visa place (locals all use Lucky Lucky Motorbike) and pay about $280-ish to have it extended for one year. That's it, you're done. Opening a business is a little pricy compared to the visa expenses, but pretty straightforward and the shysters there aren't as numerous or voracious as they are here, so you don't get as many marketing-heavy fear-based sales pitches from Western-manned law firms. They will gouge you a bit, but you won't get a much better deal from going with locals either. Unlike Thailand, you cannot do it yourself in Cambodia by all accounts. Some people say that about everything in Thailand, but it's nonsense. You can open a business and do any number of things on your own in Thailand, even if you don't speak the language, it's just a lot easier to pay to have it done here. In Cambodia a number of things have to go through greased palms, but they do seem to get done, so no complaints. Anyhow, if the whole question is "How easy is it to stay?" then the answer is $300 and 3-4 days and you're good for a year.

Local food ranges from bland to crap, with a few standout dishes that aren't hugely impressive, so you'll end up eating a lot of foreign food probably. "No, make it REALLY spicy" has about the same effect as it does in the Philippines, even at Thai restaurants. All that said, Western food in particular is leaps and bounds ahead of Thailand, where it is physically impossible to prepare anything involving bread, tomatoes, cheese and/or beef for reasons passing understanding (except at the very top places and a few standouts). There are a couple of legit Thai joints in BKK, nothing great but definitely closer to authentic. Burgers, sandwiches, pizzas, pastas, mains, vegetable sides and so on are all better, on average, in Phnom Penh by a long shot (and relatively cheap). That said, Mexican food also sucks in Phnom Penh and is the rare area where even Bangkok has a better selection. Indian and Middle Eastern are considerably better here too, as is Japanese. Chinese is actually not bad in Phnom Penh, with some great Sichuan and Hunan cuisine (among a strip of others where the waitresses write in Chinese and barely even speak Khmer).

Westerners and Chinese smoke everywhere, all the time, which is a big change from Bangkok if you're not a smoker and don't like it. Not trying to start one of the smoker flame wars, but this is something that gets commented on a lot by visitors from Thailand. On the flip side, Phnom Penh is considerably quieter and less polluted. Khmer people don't go racing around on fast, loud motorbikes usually and there are no buses with incredibly loud transmissions. It's not as humid, but the sun is more directly hot on your skin than Bangkok, yet it's also a bit cooler at night - again, due to humidity.

I live in Thailand, but spend some time in Phnom Penh for work on occasion and have for a few years. It's a great little city in its own right and its changing rapidly for better and worse.

Edited April 6, 2012 by emilyb

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for a lot of great info above, Emily... It matched and reinforced some of the impressions I had from my quick visit. While my wife was shopping, I actually was focused on looking around at everything I could see and find to assess the potential liveability of PP for a farang such as myself.

It's funny you mentioned about the expiry dates... I was shopping to bring back some spirits or liqueurs, as the prices in PP are much better than BKK. And I believe it was at the new Bayon Market, I found they had a great selection overall, and in particular, a stock of probably five different flavors of Baileys in liter bottles. But when I checked the boxes, someone had carefully taped over the place where the expiration date was printed. And on those flavors that didn't have the dates taped over, the visible date was due to expire in a couple of months. So I ended up passing on those, and selecting something else. I pointed out the taped-over dates to a store clerk, and she just nodded and walked away.

Question about the visa method you mentioned, which confirms the account I had mentioned above. If someone goes that route and pays $280 or so a year to a "fixer," what exact kind of stamp or visa ends up getting placed into one's passport??? Do you end up with something official that legitimately entitles you to legally be there for the full year? In looking at the MFA website, I didn't see anything that appeared to correspond to that one year stay notion.

Re smoking, my wife and I are both serious non-smokers, and bothered to be in smoking environments. But I was surprised when we spent some time in NagaWorld, that for a casino, it wasn't nearly as smokey as what we have encountered in places like Macau and elsewhere. And when we were dining out or having drinks elsewhere in the evening, at least at the places we visited, smoking or a smokey environment didn't seem to be a problem at all.

During our stay, we didn't eat any Khmer food at all, although we saw it on offer, of course. I was surprised to find a quite good American bar and restaurant there on 240 Street called Freebird where we had a great dinner and drinks provided by a great serving staff. Sure wish BKK had someplace even remotely close to that, which it doesn't.

Had an afternoon refresher of drinks and ice cream at the Blue Pumpkin on Sisowath Quay that was pleasant, comfortable air con and free wifi. Had so-so food at Munich Beer on Sothereos Blvd, but the local brewed beer there was quite good. Some of the American-run places there appeared to serve some Mexican (or Tex-Mex) items on their menus, but I didn't spot any solely Mexican eatery around town. And as I mentioned above, the Korean meal we had at Jeju at NagaWorld, while expensive for PP standards, was surprisingly good and authentic, and the service was first-rate.

As you noted above:

Burgers, sandwiches, pizzas, pastas, mains, vegetable sides and so on are all better, on average, in Phnom Penh by a long shot (and relatively cheap).

This farang could get along quite well on a staple diet consisting of those kinds of things. Give me some decent ingredients from the store, and I'll cook my own Mexican meals at home... (Ooops...forget to check if the farang-oriented markets there stocked any flour tortillas.... Dang...)

About the atmosphere of the city, I'm glad you mentioned it. I don't recall seeing a single local transit bus during our stay there in PP.. Tour and regional buses yes, but not local transit... And unlike BKK, the tuk tuks there are far less noisy and obnoxious, in addition to driving much more sanely. My Thai wife won't take a tuk tuk in BKK, but she was perfectly comfortable using them in PP throughout our stay. The PP version of tuk tuks do seem to provide a very convenient and perfectly affordable way of getting around the city even if one isn't using or having a car.

Lastly, it's also interesting you confirmed my impression about the weather in PP. From my reading ahead of our trip, I was prepared to be sweaty and miserable. But in reality, far from it. I tend to FEEL much hotter in BKK where just a walk from home to the BTS will leave my shirt damp from sweat because of the humidity. Whereas in PP, even when we were out in the mid afternoon sun, yes it felt hot, but I wasn't sweating and when we went into the shade even in non-air conditioned places like the Central or Russian markets, it was perfectly comfortable.

Again, thanks for all the great info.

Edited April 7, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[emilyb]

Thanks for a lot of great info above, Emily...

Sure thing!

as the prices in PP are much better than BKK.

Yeah, as I'm sure you know our lovely local brewery monopolies make sure that importing beer and wine is either nearly impossible or prohibitvely expensive, even slapping a tarriff on domestically produced wine just in case. Phnom Penh is pretty much duty free plus a little margin, so alcohol's cheaper in almost all cases. I really like Kingdom and Cambodia for beer, but the selection's generally not as wide in Cambodia. Still, they do have a few beers you won't find here and they also tend to have (not always, but often) actual imports instead of locally brewed options, so, for example, the San Mig Pale there tastes good like actual San Mig instead of the skunk water you get here or in Hong Kong. Liquor and wine are where the difference really shines, as you alluded to.

Question about the visa method you mentioned, which confirms the account I had mentioned above. If someone goes that route and pays $280 or so a year to a "fixer," what exact kind of stamp or visa ends up getting placed into one's passport??? Do you end up with something official that legitimately entitles you to legally be there for the full year? In looking at the MFA website, I didn't see anything that appeared to correspond to that one year stay notion.

That's correct, you get a big blue extension of stay sticker (3 months, 6 months or 12 months). I quoted the service price for 12 months at $280. The actual fee is something like $275 and visa dudes charge anywhere from about $280 to $3## for the service. 12 month extensions are always mutliple entry, not sure about the others. It's all perfectly legit and official.

I was surprised to find a quite good American bar and restaurant there on 240 Street called Freebird where we had a great dinner and drinks provided by a great serving staff. Sure wish BKK had someplace even remotely close to that, which it doesn't.

Freebird's a nice solid joint - kind of Chili's-ized, though in BKK that would still be welcome. Food's not bad, yeah. I'd recommend Lone Star for the American food, specifically of the Texan variety, but they do other things well too, like Reubens and chicken soup and what not.

On the Korean note, there's actually a North Korean - as in owned by the government of DPRK - restaurant there that people say is not only a fascinating experience, but also not bad food (avoid the dog soup). I totally forgot to mention Korean, yeah, good call. With the heaps of Koreans in Cambo, there's plenty of good Korean food. Only problem really is that the local beef kinda sucks, so Korean BBQ isn't as strong.

Glad you enjoyed your visit. I do like the place. Bangkok's still home, but PP is a good exit plan if something goes tits up in this country.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Interesting re the Koreans... Just nearby NagaWorld, there was some kind of huge Korean-Cambodian exhibit/retailing complex -- kind of a mall sized place of its own. I really wanted to go inside to explore, but didn't get that chance... Love Korean food... dog soup, no thanks. BTW, I had beef bulkogi at Jeju, and the thin sliced beef they used was perfectly tender and tasty... Ooops...I hope I wasn't eating Rover!

Funny you mentioned Lone Star as a similar kind of place to Freebird. At Freebird I had a very good char-grilled hamburger and fries for $4.50, while my wife had an order of beef-kebobs with peppers and onions that she thought was fine. I think the most expensive item on their menu was a couple of steak dinners in the $10 to $11 range. Whenever I'm traveling, I always use the traditional hamburger as a measurement of whether the place can reproduce a reasonable American meal. And Freebird passed that test.

We didn't stop by Lone Star, but I did read about it. Funny I said above because, when I read review comments on Lone Star, a lot of people rated it highly for its food and atmosphere... But there were a fair number of really bad comments from women complaining about their perceptions of it being a boorish, man's, sexpat kind of place. Since you're presumably a woman, I'll take your view as a positive counterpoint to the other opinions I read...

Lastly, thanks for clarifying re the visa situation. That's a detail that obviously is a very important consideration for any Thailand-based farangs who might consider PP as an alternative. Made my day, that's for sure!!!

Separately, for everyone here, while in PP, I embarked on my own quest to sample everything that I could find available from the local beer market there, including some of the brands Emily mentioned above... More on that to follow.

[emilyb]

Ah, Lone Star does get that way, but usually only as the after work and evening crowd drifts in. You might overhear some bull sessions from the local guys about who did what to which girl at what bar during the day, but that kind of talk almost never starts until evening. It's bawdier as the evening goes on, but they're nice enough guys in person and won't bother you (as long as you can tolerate hearing about conquests). Probably the most helpful group of old school expats in a single bar when it comes to business and networking and things, really. At no point does anything transpire in Lone Star, though, the owner's family and kid are around most of the time and while guys do show up with their new ladyfriends I've never seen anything untoward going on in the bar and, in fact, the old sexpats there are pretty protective of the staff and don't like anyone coming in and being too forward. Probably what Bourbon St. was like 20 years ago If you're worried, just go by on Sunday mornings, it's full of families eating.

Good tip on the Korean, I'll have to give it a try. Slicing it thin should make it edible, I hadn't considered that, but now that I think of it the Pho Bo there is good (Vietnamese food is another thing that's much better on average in Phnom Penh for obvious reasons). If you go back, check out a place called Exchange, the newest fancy joint by a notable local restaurateur named Tom. Pricier, but worth the splurge. Most people rave about Mike's Burgers, and his ingredients are great - except for the patty, unfortunately. AussieXL is another good place for that kind of food, also a great pizza. Some of the best food in town is now at a red light joint where a locally known chef migrated to after years at another hangout. Green Vespa has fantastic lunch and dinner specials ($10 for a good main and a beer, for example). The place is just littered with good Western - I was glad to get out! Getting fat

And on the visas, yeah, spread the word far and wide - Cambodia wants you to come live there and will not ask any questions (for now). Bring about $310 dollars, four pictures, your passport and a pen and you're officially legal. Rent starts as low as $120 a month for ratty rooms in the middle of town, but you can get something very reasonable and nice for $200-$300. If you go outside town you can get your own villa for that price. In town things are a little more expensive, but the old French colonial apartments make it worth it. I could go on. Basically, the common wisdom of "it's like Thailand 30 years ago" is roughly accurate in a number of ways, though PP, while quaint, is not and never will be Bangkok, but that's part of its charm.

You have to love the name Ordinary Visa. Used to be called a Business Visa, but for some reason they changed it recently. I would have loved to have been in that meeting. "What should we call it?" "Well, it's not for business or tourism or retirement, it's just kinda ordinary." "Okay, write that down, Sam."

Edited April 7, 2012 by emilyb

[phuketrichard]

Question about the visa method you mentioned, which confirms the account I had mentioned above. If someone goes that route and pays $280 or so a year to a "fixer," what exact kind of stamp or visa ends up getting placed into one's passport??? Do you end up with something official that legitimately entitles you to legally be there for the full year? In looking at the MFA website, I didn't see anything that appeared to correspond to that one year stay notion.

You get a full page stamp which is valid for 1 year stay in Cambodia and u can come in and out as u wish ( ie no additional re entry permit required.

This visa can be extended indefinitely in country yu cna alos get a 3 month ( cant be used for re entry ) or a 6 mnth entry good for un an out.

as stated the phones are set u for 3 g but u wil not get the speeds u get in Thailand but still good deal.Best deal is mobile net where u cna buy the data sim card an top up as u need it.

Food i find good, Plenty of good thai restaurants an Farang restaurants around town where u can gt a good meal for $4-7. Cambodia street food is nothing compared to Thai street food.

You can get great inexpensive meals on the top floor of the Soriya center ( across from Central market) for $1.50-$3.00

although no 7/11's plenty of mini markets all over.

I lived in Cambodia in 2006 an than 2008-09 and will be movijng back this August, It is 10 x easier to set up a business and u do a need a work permit and jump thru all the hassles one needs to do here in Thailand and the opportunities are endless.

I have many friends that have left Phuket over the years an moved to Shianoukville and that's where i am headed. The beaches are not nearly as nice as say Hua Hin, Phuket or Samui but the islands are beautiful.

Most important for me is the people, they are more friendle than the Thais ( especially those u find in the tourist areas) and there level of english is much better

Cambodia. Its a life style not like Thailand

[thurien]

during all of our trips to PP I continue being amazed by the huge number of super pick-ups/SUVs 6cyl. up (Toyota, LandRover, Hummer, Chevy, Lexus and the like) inadvertently driven by young Eurepeans / Australians / US boys and girls ... and parked by the lot in front of the restaurants on Sisowath Quay starting lunch time until very late at night. This successful young breed mostly consists of hard-working international NGOs who obviously qualify for assisted imports of these carriages as well as very lenient working times coupled with attractive "salaries..."

Edited April 7, 2012 by thurien

[Markaew]

I went to PP about six weeks ago for a visa run for the first time and loved it! Some things cheap but some things drain your wallet pretty fast. If you live there and figure the ins and outs I think you could cut back on expenses. For me PP has a much more foreigner friendly environment which is a nice surprise. Also western food is very easy to get and I don't mean pizzas and hamburgers.