Thai Hybrids What Are They?

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

Hey A question for Tom Yum and mixed white/Thais do you feel more drawn to one culture or another or do ya feel kinda on the outside of both not really part of either one?

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I feel i am quite western and hardly Thai at all. This is hardly surprising as I went to an international school in BKK, then boarding school and uni in the UK. I definitely identify more with the western mindset and I never felt out of place in the UK.

However, since i moved back to Thailand, i have taken a keen interest in modern Thai culture. This is an effort on my part to gain a deeper understanding of my country of birth.

I don't feel 100% accepted by Thais as one of them. This is understandable as i don't look Thai. Appearance is everything here, a perfect Thai accent or manners isn't going to change that.

I observe Thai cultural norms as much as i can when i'm here. I feel this is necessary as a luk krung living in Thailand. I could act like a farang and i suspect i could get by just fine, but then i would be missing out on a lot of things.

So to answer your question, i feel a little like an outsider in Thailand, but it doesn't bother me. Thailand is one of the nicest places to feel like an outsider as i'm sure many on this forum will agree.

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Ahh, that last comment sums it all up doesn’t it. Yes indeed it is a nice place to be the outsider.

Western? in your case dose that mean white, British? English even? In my situation my mother's family disowned her for marrying my father and his family just scooped her right up and treated her like she was born in to their family. My Grandmother and Grandfather treated her like she was their daughter. And while growing up around them in the Black community I got a lil tease here and there (usually about the way I talked and the fact that I can't jump or play B-ball ) there was never any question as to where I belonged. It was always VERY clear cut I was never under any confusion as to what I was.

Though when I was in my Late teens and early 20's I was seriously militant, resentful of the way white people in the States had treated my family and I. I denied my mother's heritage in my blood and although she never said it I know it had to hurt.

Now 30, I have long sense mellowed out done allot of traveling and ya realize that once ya get out of the States people care a hel_l of allot more about the color of your money & your passport than they do that of your skin. And I am allot more humble and grateful for what I have and the life I was allowed to lead. I even plan on getting around to Wales with Mom to see where her folks came from. And my Dad & I will be visiting Africa this summer.

Today I am soon to be engaged to the Love of my life, The Thai woman I mentioned 2 statements ago. I am REALLY looking forward to some kids but I wonder, how they will feel growing up here in Thailand. Did you ever have any resentment to either one of your folks? Do ya think if they look kinda dark with Asiatic features would they get a lil more acceptance here by the Thais? Or would it be pretty much the same as what you experienced ya think?

Your input is really appreciated thanks man.

[fanta rood]

Ok well some people thought I was from iraq or iran. The muslim at my barbershop thought I was from afghanistan. Other said I look mexican or a little bit indonesian. If I looked white, chinese or indonesian then I wouldn't have gave it a 2nd thought. But I guess you right

Maybe I'll post a picture of myself later when I feel like it

Edited December 21, 2005 by fanta rood

[BambinA]

Maybe I'll post a picture of myself later when I feel like it

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i'm desperate to see it

Edited December 21, 2005 by BambinA

[udon]

"Hybrid' is bad word to describe someone's children.

I have only seen it used to describe animals & birds, never humans.

Eurasian or just 'mixed race' is acceptable.

OP , is English your primary language?

[Daedalus]

The more disturbing, for me, is that at the poll's question "what are thai hybrid?", there is the answer "NOTHING" , and someone choose it...

[Noel]

I would say the 'correct' term would be half-caste, but I doubt that would be deemed acceptable by the high-minded 'politically correct' brigade...

[tom yum goong]

Western? in your case dose that mean white, British? English even?

Yeah I guess you could say British. Just from the fact that my Dad is English and I spent most of my formative years there (from 11 to 24, but returning home to BKK during school holidays).

I am REALLY looking forward to some kids but I wonder, how they will feel growing up here in Thailand. Did you ever have any resentment to either one of your folks?

For bringing me up in Thailand? No, why would I?

Growing up in Thailand was a great experience. Its a cliché but Thailand is a land of contrasts. As an example, my best friend at school was the son of the Uruguayan ambassador while the kids I to played with after school lived in the slum down the road. When i went to boarding school in the UK, I found that I had a much better understanding of the how the world worked than other kids my own age.

One thing about being a luk kreung child at that time (in the 1980s when i guess we weren't that common) was all the attention I got. I'm not sure if it was a good thing or not really. Just something that I had to learn to deal with.

Do ya think if they look kinda dark with Asiatic features would they get a lil more acceptance here by the Thais? Or would it be pretty much the same as what you experienced ya think?

Its hard to say. There are some luk krueng who look quite Thai but with some caucasian features. I think these are able to blend in more easily and are more easily accepted as Thai, if they have been brought up that way.

My mother is Chinese, so I dont look Thai at all. Most Thais just assume I'm a farang, but i've also been mistaken for so many different races/nationalities i've lost count. Japanese, Hawaiian, Brahmin, Russian and even German?? My girlfriend says that sometimes I look more Asian and sometimes i look more farang, so I must be some sort of chameleon.

Your kids would be a mix of 3 races, so I guess that would cause even more confusion for people trying to guess where they are from. But I would be willing to bet that they would be great looking kids.

My advice to you, for what its worth, is that if you do bring them up in Thailand, you must bring them up to be western (American, or whatever) and give them an education that goes with that. That way, they will have much more of an advantage in life than if they were brought up Thai. Of course thats not to say that they shouldn't have a love and understanding of their Thai roots as well.

This is not meant in any derogatory way to Thai people who I love dearly, but I would much rather be a farang looking in to Thailand, than a Thai looking out.

Your input is really appreciated thanks man.

Anytime.

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Edited December 22, 2005 by tom yum goong

[tom yum goong]

I would say the 'correct' term would be half-caste, but I doubt that would be deemed acceptable by the high-minded 'politically correct' brigade...

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Half-caste is a term i heard a lot in the UK, and it doesnt bother me in the slightest. But the 'correct term'? I would dispute that.

Look up the definition of caste.

Here's one i found: " A social class separated from others by distinctions of hereditary rank, profession, or wealth."

There are other definitions but none of them mention race. Which is why mixed race is much more appropriate because its meaning is indisputable and it has no negative connotations.

And i dare say the term half-caste was coined by the British in India to refer to offspring of parents from different castes. FYI, caste in India refers to "Any of the hereditary, endogamous social classes or subclasses of traditional Hindu society, stratified according to Hindu ritual purity, especially the Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaisya, and Sudra castes." - again these are social strata.

[Noel]

I would say the 'correct' term would be half-caste, but I doubt that would be deemed acceptable by the high-minded 'politically correct' brigade...

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Half-caste is a term i heard a lot in the UK, and it doesnt bother me in the slightest. But the 'correct term'? I would dispute that.

Look up the definition of caste.

Here's one i found: " A social class separated from others by distinctions of hereditary rank, profession, or wealth."

There are other definitions but none of them mention race. Which is why mixed race is much more appropriate because its meaning is indisputable and it has no negative connotations.

And i dare say the term half-caste was coined by the British in India to refer to offspring of parents from different castes. FYI, caste in India refers to "Any of the hereditary, endogamous social classes or subclasses of traditional Hindu society, stratified according to Hindu ritual purity, especially the Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaisya, and Sudra castes." - again these are social strata.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree, there is a social status/class derivation/connotation.

I was actually thinking back from the Thai 'look kreung' expression and came up with half-caste or half-breed. The latter sounds more like a term applied to an animal so I dismissed it. Both terms seem to have a condescending overtone whether intended or not.

I'll therefore go along with 'mixed race'.

[skylar]

But the literal translation is half child. There's nothing derogatory about that.

[tom yum goong]

But the literal translation is half child. There's nothing derogatory about that.

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Literal transaltion of what? Dont mean to be pedantic but your post isn't very clear.

Luk krueng? Yes, that means half child and as you say, not derogatory at all.

Half-caste? Does not literally mean half child - I refer you to my previous post. I would suggest that does have negative conotations, although personally i do not find it offensive. Others might though.

[udon]

tom yum goong... Good posts, thank you.

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

"Hybrid' is bad word to describe someone's children.

I have only seen it used to describe animals & birds, never humans.

Eurasian or just 'mixed race' is acceptable.

OP , is English your primary language?

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Just because you have only seen it used in a zoological context dosn't make it bad. I have seen in used to describe all manner of living things from plants to animals. Why are we so much better to need a different word to annotate the same Idea?

And Eurasian only covers two continents, and mixed race is well, I don't know...just don't like the ring of it. I would much rather some one refer to me as a hybrid when they speak of my biological make up. Just sounds sharper and more accurate. Cause race often gets intermingled with culture, and I'm not a mixed culture my blood is mixed my culture is not. But at this point we are probably splitting hairs

[tom yum goong]

tom yum goong... Good posts, thank you.

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thanks

Capt. - I was using eurasian to refer to someone in my situation. Obviously this can't apply to all mixed race people. I also feel that race/ethnicity and culture are two very seperate issues.

Getting away from definition of terms, which could go on forever, I would love to hear input from the OP and other luk kruengs/eurasians on this topic.

Any more of us on Thai Visa?

[jumbo]

tom yum goong... Good posts, thank you.

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thanks

Capt. - I was using eurasian to refer to someone in my situation. Obviously this can't apply to all mixed race people. I also feel that race/ethnicity and culture are two very seperate issues.

Getting away from definition of terms, which could go on forever, I would love to hear input from the OP and other luk kruengs/eurasians on this topic.

Any more of us on Thai Visa?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well as I stated at my post earlier I am half Indonesian half Dutch, never felt anything than satisfaction when I was on teh beach and saw everybody work hard and burn to get my natural type of tan. Discrimination as I have encountered was mostly in situations where thigs were not normal like during a sportsgame and when I got the better of it, during a prefight verbal fight and the racial remark was usually the trigger for me to start punishment and other situations where som ###### just was jealous enough to suddenly convert to racial issues....

sad people, very sad.....

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

"Your kids would be a mix of 3 races, so I guess that would cause even more confusion for people trying to guess where they are from. But I would be willing to bet that they would be great looking kids.

My advice to you, for what its worth, is that if you do bring them up in Thailand, you must bring them up to be western (American, or whatever) and give them an education that goes with that. That way, they will have much more of an advantage in life than if they were brought up Thai. Of course thats not to say that they shouldn't have a love and understanding of their Thai roots as well."

Hey man thanks for the complement. Yeah your right I will definitely need to bring them up as American. The cool thing about being a American is that you can be any color or have any cultural back ground and you are still American. Unlike say England for example, you can have a British passport but unless your Anglo Saxon you will never be a Englishman.

I want them to have it all, The best education our cash can buy, All the fun of the Thai holidays and culture mixed with The American sense of competitiveness and independence. Who knows with any luck they can get the Thai entrepreneurial sprit but with a American "Think Big" mind state and be rich and wealthy and take care of Mom and Dad when we get old

[kat]

It's really a question to ask those who are Eurasians. Parents of Eurasians are in no real position to classify their children but simply observe the mixed lifestyle that comes with being brought up in a 2 culture household.

Similarly myself I can't answer the question with any accuracy but if I was to guess, a Thai Eurasian brought up in Thai society is more likely to feel Thai, a Thai Eurasian brought up in an expat society in Thailand can feel either - or really confused - and a Thai Eurasian brought up in Western society will feel more Western. Whether people in either societies agree with them is a different kettle of fish and has caused many Eurasians anguish! For example, Morris K and Joey from Bazoo.. can you imagine what these guys went through at school... they just look black, not half anything.

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I agree with Skylar. It is how we define ourselves that matters.

I've met many Eurasians like myself. In general, those who have been brought up and educated exclusively in Thailand seem to be more Thai and I would guess feel more Thai in themselves. I've also met Eurasians brought up and educated exclusively in the UK as well as other European countries, and they appear very European in manner and outlook. Again i would guess that they feel more western/European in themselves.

But of course i am only guessing.

However, i also think that how you view yourself is greatly influenced by how you are perceived by those around you, especially when you are young.

For those kids brought up in Thailand, a lot will depend on their appearance, whether they are able to pass for Thai or not. Outward appearance is very important in Thailand, so even if a kid who is very obviously mixed, or even very farang-looking, was brought up as a Thai, i doubt they could ever feel like they are Thai. They would be constantly reminded by those around them, either directly or indirectly, that they were not. At best they would always be "luk krueng".

If they look pretty much Thai, and i have met a few of these, then they have a much better chance of being accepted as Thai. Consequently they may grow up to view themselves as Thai. This appears to be the case with those i have come across.

If you look very farang, like me, then you have very little chance of being accepted as Thai. I actually have to keep insisting that i am not a farang, especially when they try to charge me farang prices .

I speak Thai and try to act as Thai as I can when i'm in Thailand because i find it helps to ingratiate myself to people around me. But I don't feel very Thai, and i'm not bothered that i am not viewed by others as a Thai. Being treated as a foreigner in my own country used to bother me when i was younger, but i have learnt that the advantages of being in my position far outweigh the disadvantages.

Apologies for rambling on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quot

tom yum goong... Good posts, thank you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thanks

Capt. - I was using eurasian to refer to someone in my situation. Obviously this can't apply to all mixed race people. I also feel that race/ethnicity and culture are two very seperate issues.

Getting away from definition of terms, which could go on forever, I would love to hear input from the OP and other luk kruengs/eurasians on this topic.

Any more of us on Thai Visa?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This has been a really good discussion for me. Thanks to all of the above and Capt. Money for your comments. I especially appreciate that there are other people out there that understand how race and culture are two different things. I seriously think that mixed-race/heritage people have a lot to teach humanity in regards to that issue. As for myself, I've suffered a lot for it - in the past, anyway. I've somewhat accepted and grown into my soul's position as a lone wolf -- or, as a fierce, little, independent snow leopard on some distant mountain. :D

Anyway, I can't go into it now. Let's just say, as a biologically mixed-race (and not even that part is clear cut), adopted person that grew up in another mixed-race household and culture, I know what all of you are talking about. Especially when you say that WE are the ones who define ourselves, not others. The problem is, race and culture doesn't just belong to us, so our identities get tangled up into other people's imposition of who we are.

A tough - but unique and character-building - experience.

Kat

Edited December 22, 2005 by kat

[chuchok]

Hey man thanks for the complement. Yeah your right I will definitely need to bring them up as American. The cool thing about being a American is that you can be any color or have any cultural back ground and you are still American. Unlike say England for example, you can have a British passport but unless your Anglo Saxon you will never be a Englishman.

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Nassar Hussain former England Cricket Captain

Jason Robinson Current England Rugby Captain

Can't get more English than those two blokes.Where do you get your information?

Edited December 22, 2005 by chuchok

[tom yum goong]

Can't get more English than those two blokes.Where do you get your information?

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I have to agree. England (Britain) may be far from a perfect society and still very class-based, but i don't think you have to be white to be able to call yourself English.

I was in England for 13 years and no one ever told me i wasn't English because i was half-Thai/Chinese. But of course there are racist idiots everywhere you go and in that respect, the UK is no different.

[skylar]

The cool thing about being a American is that you can be any color or have any cultural back ground and you are still American. Unlike say England for example, you can have a British passport but unless your Anglo Saxon you will never be a Englishman.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where did you get that from? I'm English even though I am not pasty pale and don't have any of the sharp features of an Anglo-Saxon.

Your kiddo will certainly look good. I found a picture of a famous Thai African American (Joey of Bazoo) but as you can see from the pic, the only Thai bits are the eyes and nose! And look at the Morris k book cover - it's a bit small, but you can't see any thai in him from that pic!

I was reading a book entitled Multiethnic Japan, which outlined that Japanese luk kreungs are referred to as hafu (half!), but the more PC term is daburu (underscoring the double heritage).

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

Ok let me clarify,

Yes all the people you mention are all very BRITISH.... but English?...That may be up for debate. lets look at the Authority on the English Language (Oxford English Dictionary) and see what it says about it.

I will happily admit to being wrong if indeed I am, however....

English

• noun the language of England, now used in many varieties throughout the world.

• adjective relating to England.

— DERIVATIVES Englishness noun.

— ORIGIN Old English, related to ANGLE

Mmm Origin? related to Angle? What dose it say about this....

Angle

• noun a member of an ancient Germanic people who came to England in the 5th century ad and founded kingdoms in Mercia, Northumbria, and East Anglia.

— ORIGIN Latin Anglus ‘inhabitant of Angul’ (in northern Germany); related to ANGLE2 (because Angul’s shape resembled a fishing hook) and ENGLISH.

Why so defensive about the truth of this Term? Is their a Bias in England for or against this term or the Term British? having never been there I don't know. I just remember being told by a venerable English gentlemen that he was not British. He said he was a Englishman, a Anglo Saxon, and if you were not this, while you could indeed be British, technically you could not call your self a Englishman. He was adamant in his assertion of this point and the Oxford English Dictionary seems to back this up as well. So unless someone can share some pertinent information to the contrary, I would agree with him.

[chuchok]

Ok let me clarify,

Yes all the people you mention are all very BRITISH.... but English?...That may be up for debate. lets look at the Authority on the English Language (Oxford English Dictionary) and see what it says about it.

I will happily admit to being wrong if indeed I am, however....

English

  • noun the language of England, now used in many varieties throughout the world.

  • adjective relating to England.

  — DERIVATIVES Englishness noun.

  — ORIGIN Old English, related to ANGLE

Mmm Origin? related to Angle? What dose it say about this....

Angle

  • noun a member of an ancient Germanic people who came to England in the 5th century ad and founded kingdoms in Mercia, Northumbria, and East Anglia.

  — ORIGIN Latin Anglus ‘inhabitant of Angul’ (in northern Germany); related to ANGLE2 (because Angul’s shape resembled a fishing hook) and ENGLISH.

Why so defensive about the truth of this Term? Is their a Bias in England for or against this term or the Term British? having never been there I don't know. I just remember being told by a venerable English gentlemen that he was not British. He said he was a Englishman, a Anglo Saxon, and if you were not this, while you could indeed be British, technically you could not call your self a Englishman. He was adamant in his assertion of this point and the Oxford English Dictionary seems to back this up as well. So unless someone can share some pertinent information to the contrary, I would agree with him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you been to England?

I'm almost 100% +ve that the people in the photos would call themselves English first rather than British.

If you want to go by your dict def, then why not call them Germanic

Regardless of what a dictionary says, your comment was "unless your Anglo Saxon you will never be a Englishman. "..that's complete &lt;deleted&gt; and really a mis-informed generalisation.

Edited December 22, 2005 by chuchok

[Guest endure]

Born & raised in Bolton -

[Guest endure]

Angle

  • noun a member of an ancient Germanic people who came to England in the 5th century ad and founded kingdoms in Mercia, Northumbria, and East Anglia.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Things have moved on in the past 1600 years. Englishmen/women are people who have been born in England, Welsh in Wales, Scots in Scotland. 'British' is a blanket term used to describe them all.

Edited December 22, 2005 by endure

[Neeranam]

My dear little daughter  looks like .............

daddy!  Perhaps the eyes have an asian touch and slightly tanned skin.

I´m slavic-celtic

Same as mine - but I'm Glasgow Celtic

My daughter is told that she has the best of 3 worlds - Thai, Indian, and Scottish.

[Prakanong2005]

Excellent thread and one in which with the subject matter could have turned into tripe but due top the intelligence of the posters has become very informative.

Capn Money made some excellent points too but the white to be English was slightly off.

Many blacks and other people of colour do consider themselves English -they support england at football, Rugby and cricket etc and if asked would say English before British in many cases.

This is probably growing stonger over the years as we have only really had mass immigration following WW2 - the first generations may have still had allegiances to their home nation but as we now reach 3rd and 4th generation the links while still strong in some communities with the so called home country many consider themselves as English.

Same as people from Wales, Scotland or Ireland.

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

Ok guys fair enough. As I said before I never have been there, and apparently the scores of British I meet here aren’t exactly the foremost authority on the subject.

I was under the belief that you had to be white to be English.

So my apologies on that if I offended anyone...

Just a funny off topic story how I came to believe this,

It was my first stay in Thailand that turned out to be for 6 1/2 months. I had to go on my visa run from Pattaya to Cambodia on this crappy little mini van. I had the most hideous case of the runs and each bump was killing me. The guy sitting next to me was a old Englishman. I asked him "Hey man, say do you know if this bus stops at a rest room or something?" He replies in a very dignified English accent "Why, have the trots do you?" I looked puzzled for a second never having heard that t erm before and when I figured it out I nodded emphatically "Well you should grab yourself some Kaline and Morph it will dry you right up. We usually stop someplace were you can use the loo" Then I asked him "Say your British huh?" he looked sternly at me and said "NO, I am a Englishman" I looked at him with that same puzzled expression that I gave him when he mentioned the word "trots". I finally asked "Um excuse my ignorance sir but I have not traveled much, what’s the difference?" His nose literally started to rise in the air as he lectured me with imperialist pride "Well, far to many Indians and Pakis (he almost coughed out the word Paki's") come to England and claim British nationality but they will never be a Englishman, a Englishman is a Anglo-Saxon native of the island of mostly Germanic and Roman decent, the True people of England" At this point he started talking about St Georges Cross and a bunch of stuff I can't remember but that part stuck in my mind.

Oh well live and learn

Thanks

[chonabot]

Captain , you are you correct in so much as many older Englishmen/woman have that attitude. Thankfully it has diminished somewhat these days.

[kat]

Yeah, live and learn Capt. Money. But, as a fellow American, please allow me to chide you just a little.

Just on a comparative basis, you should know that there is a big difference between an American like you or me, and one who belongs to the KKK, or the DAR (Daughters of the Revolution), or the NRA (National Rifles Association).

Big difference

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

Ummm Actualy Kat I am a life Member of the NRA, but then again I'm also a life member of the NAACP.... But hey thats a topic for a whole other thread