Focus On PISA Test To 'Repair National Image': Thailand

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted.

[Markaew]

'Teaching to the test', is exactly what you should not do dear Deputy Secretary. Good scores on an international assessment start with a proper national assessment. And we teachers all know that the exams in this country are flawed and meaningless! Not failing students makes a lot of students lazy and not take any responsibility in learning. And that's the main reason your Education system is in shambles!

The whole Thai education system is based on what you just said.

[Xangsamhua]

Before teachers can teach students to think critically, they themselves are going to have to learn to think critically.

They need to be given some incentive to do so. I doubt the average school administrator here will really appreciate his/her teachers thinking critically.

[culicine]

This article is no surprise to anyone who has taught Mathematics here. While Thai students are often ok doing basic calculations, they are frequently baffled by word problems - which require them to figure out what the question is asking and then what steps are required to reach the answer - analytical skills, in other words!

The system is truly a mess. Take the use of calculators - banned in Thai schools, so teachers focus on teaching students to do calculations. We use calculators in our EP from M2, so we tend to focus on other things at this level (problem solving or other exercises that don't necessarily rely on calculations per se.. Calculators are simply to tool to do mathematics - the calculation isn't an end in itself. I laugh when I see my students practicing from they Thai math books - doing calculations that we would easily do with the calculator. Why don't we all go back to slide rules instead (or log tables) instead of a calculator to do logarithms - good teachers teach concepts in depth - e.g. where do logs come from (inverse functions of exponential functions), and why is this knowledge valuable (earthquake, tsunami measurements).

So to do well on PISA requires a complete rethink of the educational system - you simply cannot "teach to this test", while still holding onto their precious archaic teaching methods. From my experience, Thai students certainly have the ability, if only they are given the chance. is the country mature enough to have a critically thinking populace though?

[Xangsamhua]

These figures might indicate where change needs to be made.

Top-ranked nations/regions on PISA 2009 with corruption index scores in brackets (the higher the score the cleaner the country):

1. Shanghai region (not known)

2. Korea (5.4)

3. Finland (9.4)

4. Hong Kong SAR (8.4)

5. Singapore (9.2)

6. Canada (8.7)

7. New Zealand (9.5)

8. Japan (8.0)

9. Australia (8.8)

10. Netherlands (8.9)

50. Thailand (3.4)

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/results/#CountryResults

[khaowong1]

'MORE THAN 50 PERCENT OF THAI STUDENT WERE BELOW LEVEL 1 AT PISA TEST'

This meeans 50 percent of thai students being TOTALLY unable to analyze,deduct,thinking.

IT'S SCARING.We have to deal with those people every day...

:-) ha ha ha. and on the roads and highways. It's enough to scare the shit out of you. And remember, these people want nuclear power. Dear god, protect us.

Edited April 9, 2012 by khaowong1

[culicine]

Didn't the Philippines drop themselves from PISA recently. They fared very badly, but don't have the figures at hand.

[culicine]

Oh boy, here we go again. Another test for them to try and master without actually learning.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Thai govt will tackle the problem of improving the countries PISA score by:

1. Trying to find someone to give a large brown envelope full of money to.

failing that

2. Tell teachers they must improve but offer no advice, training or money to do this.

3. If all else fails blame farangs.

There was a bit of a scandal around the Shanghai results. It was rumored that "weaker students" were moved out of target schools, so the average PISA scored would be higher. I don't know if there is any truth behind it though and don't know how that could be achieved.

I have an external test to my M4's last year. Similar to PISA. My very best students managed 26/40. The topics they were learning in class were in the test, but the questions are framed very differently. So the problem is not so much the curriculum but how it is delivered, and certainly they involve much more thinking to a depth they are not used to. The main problem is getting old Thai teachers who are set in their ways to teach like this, which means handing some power over to students over their own learning. Good luck with that!

[BigJohnnyBKK]

BigJohnnyBKK: some good points, but foreigners will NOT be allowed to be a part of it. They will contaminate the purity of the Thai system (or question its viability). A few privileged students will be taught some little tricks that seem to show some critical thinking and it will appear in the local papers and everyone will ooh and awe and declare the education system on the right track.

Yes, I'm not holding my breath for any significant changes. I'm just pointing out that given how bad things are, there are much worse standards to use for measuring progress. If the PTB actually took it seriously and wanted to improve Thailand's PISA results, they may realize how fundamental the changes required are. That is likely to result in them tossing up their hands and giving up, but perhaps not. . .

These figures might indicate where change needs to be made.

Top-ranked nations/regions on PISA 2009 with corruption index scores in brackets (the higher the score the cleaner the country):

1. Shanghai region (not known)

2. Korea (5.4)

3. Finland (9.4)

4. Hong Kong SAR (8.4)

5. Singapore (9.2)

6. Canada (8.7)

7. New Zealand (9.5)

8. Japan (8.0)

9. Australia (8.8)

10. Netherlands (8.9)

50. Thailand (3.4)

http://cpi.transpare...#CountryResults

Both the Shanghai and Korean numbers show there is some hope here, but admittedly not much. . .

[blablablabla]

Well! Let's see if the people posting on this topic CAN think critically since there are more than happy to criticize the Thais. Let's turn the table. Let's think critically about the English language. It has the WORST letter-to-sound and sound-to-letter ratios or phonemicity of all Western languages. The English spelling system has 400 or so ways to spell 42 phonemes or sounds with 26 letters! It has 88 spelling rules, most of which have more elements in the exception column! It has not been improved in 400 years. Do you know many things that haven't? In 400 years? Especially considering this appalling record? It is so bad that if it were a car, it would not sell; if it were a paper, it would get a fail; if it were an invention, it would never get off the ground! If this was an Apple phone, do you think people would buy it? So, should we keep the same flawed system or should we change it? To help you answer that question, go to http://reforming-english.blogspot.ca/. Once you have read it thoroughly (don't miss the text under the title BTW), then let's have a discussion!

BTW, UK is 21st on the 2009 Pisa test. US, 18th, to add to the aforementioned list !

Edited April 13, 2012 by blablablabla

[blablablabla]

Well! Let's see if the people posting on this topic CAN think critically since there are more than happy to criticize the Thais. Let's turn the table. Let's think critically about the English language. It has the WORST letter-to-sound and sound-to-letter ratios or phonemicity of all Western languages. The English spelling system has 400 or so ways to spell 42 phonemes or sounds with 26 letters! It has 88 spelling rules, most of which have more elements in the exception column! It has not been improved in 400 years. Do you know many things that haven't? In 400 years? Especially considering this appalling record? It is so bad that if it were a car, it would not sell; if it were a paper, it would get a fail; if it were an invention, it would never get off the ground! If this was an Apple phone, do you think people would buy it? So, should we keep the same flawed system or should we change it? To help you answer that question, go to http://reforming-english.blogspot.ca/. Once you have read it thoroughly (don't miss the text under the title BTW), then let's have a discussion!

BTW, UK is 21st on the 2009 Pisa test. US, 18th, to add to the aforementioned list !

I meant to write "they are more [...]" BTW! Oops!

Edited April 13, 2012 by blablablabla

[Scott]

I don't believe the PISA test is an English language proficiency Exam.

[culicine]

I don't believe the PISA test is an English language proficiency Exam.

What's interesting is that Singaporean students do the tests in english and score better than students of most other countries. Thailand should look to see what their teachers are actually teaching (they curriculum) and how they present material. As I understand it, the students are hard working, and also focus more on problem solving / open ended questions, which are more like what PISA is attempting to assess.

[blablablabla]

I don't believe the PISA test is an English language proficiency Exam.

You don't believe or you don't know? I have read samples of them and the tests for the English-speaking kids are written in English. Some of the topics are literacy, Math, and or science, but if you cannot read the question, I doubt you can score well! ! I have a degree in linguistics and I am a teacher! I guess I should know before writing what I wrote! It might be worth checking the website where all of this WAS explained!

[blablablabla]

I don't believe the PISA test is an English language proficiency Exam.

What's interesting is that Singaporean students do the tests in english and score better than students of most other countries. Thailand should look to see what their teachers are actually teaching (they curriculum) and how they present material. As I understand it, the students are hard working, and also focus more on problem solving / open ended questions, which are more like what PISA is attempting to assess.

Good point! Isn't English more ubiquitous in Singapore than in Thailand (especially outside of BKK)? Is it a question of budget? How much English do kids in S. get? Who teaches English? Is English used for all subjects in the classroom whereas in Thailand it is often just an ESL course?

[culicine]

My understanding is that the exam is translated into the students language, but just so happens Singaproeans use english as their academic language. I'm sure Thai students get the equivalent exam in Thai language. So lack of english skills isn't the cause of the poor scores, rather the fact that Thai students don't learn in the manner which is conducive to good scores on this test.

[Phatcharanan]

'Teaching to the test', is exactly what you should not do dear Deputy Secretary.

I don't think you have any experience of the PISA tests? If you did.........you would know that this is NOT teaching to a test. Don't confuse these tests with the UK SAT's which are driven by specific curriculum topic.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Phatcharanan

[Phatcharanan]

I don't believe the PISA test is an English language proficiency Exam.

You don't believe or you don't know? I have read samples of them and the tests for the English-speaking kids are written in English. Some of the topics are literacy, Math, and or science, but if you cannot read the question, I doubt you can score well! ! I have a degree in linguistics and I am a teacher! I guess I should know before writing what I wrote! It might be worth checking the website where all of this WAS explained!

The PISA tests Reading, Mathematical and Scientific literacy..........not literacy 'per se' as you are probably defining it.

Also, your degree in Linguistics and its usefulness depends in some way on your own views as to how L2 is acquired. I have a dual MA in TESOL & Applied Linguistics and personally, I believe in Stephen Krashen's hypotheses & theories. Doesn't mean to say I am right in all cases though.

Teachers learn every day right?

[Phatcharanan]

My understanding is that the exam is translated into the students language, but just so happens Singaproeans use english as their academic language. I'm sure Thai students get the equivalent exam in Thai language. So lack of english skills isn't the cause of the poor scores, rather the fact that Thai students don't learn in the manner which is conducive to good scores on this test.

You are correct although to be more specific, the tests are conducted in the language of instruction. Thus, if an Indian school uses English as it's medium of instruction then the tests are in English.

If the medium is Thai....then the tests are in Thai, etc etc etc.

[KireB]

'Teaching to the test', is exactly what you should not do dear Deputy Secretary.

I don't think you have any experience of the PISA tests? If you did.........you would know that this is NOT teaching to a test. Don't confuse these tests with the UK SAT's which are driven by specific curriculum topic.

Quote from the article:"

She added that questions of PISA tests may be put in students' exercise books so they can learn to analyze these questions."

Sounds teaching and learning to the test to me!

Its true that the PISA test is said to have a non-curricular nature, but Math, Science and Reading Comprehension are core elements of any country's curriculum. The Math curriculum here in Thailand is for at least 90% similar to that in any other country.

Edited April 14, 2012 by KireB

[Scott]

Thailand would never consider it a fair test if you can't memorize the answers.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Is it a question of budget?

Found a good article on the relationship of funding levels to test outcomes

My conclusions (not just from this):

One common factor in successful systems is that great emphasis is on recruiting, training and retaining top teachers. Shanghai seems to be very much "teach to the test", very intensive to the point of being detrimental to students' health, while Finland is the complete opposite, no standardized testing, no rating of schools, minimum time spent in school, very late starting ages, focus on learning itself for its own sake not "outcomes".

BTW, UK is 21st on the 2009 Pisa test. US, 18th, to add to the aforementioned list !

Yes, educators in native-English countries are well aware that their school systems are failing to meet the needs of their societies. I am a bit more hopeful they can solve the problem if they put their minds to it though. . .

Chances are that is more likely for it to complitely fall as it is so bending over already, that can't be straightened up anymore....

That's what she said

[Xangsamhua]

The need to focus on developing teacher quality is also the main conclusion in the Grattan Institute report.

http://www.asianscie...-february-2012/

http://www.grattan.e...m_the_best.html

This report grew from a series of consultations in Melbourne in 2011 between Australian education authorities and representatives of education systems in Shanghai, Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore. The Australian Prime Minister and Education Minister also attended.

It's interesting though that Australia maintains its place in the top 10 of PISA rankings, yet university admission requirements for Education faculties continue to be lowered there. The best and brightest of Australian students are not applying to study Education. (Nevertheless, many teachers enter the profession via foundation degrees in Arts, Science, etc and then do a postgraduate Diploma in Education.)

[culicine]

My understanding is that the exam is translated into the students language, but just so happens Singaproeans use english as their academic language. I'm sure Thai students get the equivalent exam in Thai language. So lack of english skills isn't the cause of the poor scores, rather the fact that Thai students don't learn in the manner which is conducive to good scores on this test.

You are correct although to be more specific, the tests are conducted in the language of instruction. Thus, if an Indian school uses English as it's medium of instruction then the tests are in English.

If the medium is Thai....then the tests are in Thai, etc etc etc.

Yes I wasn't clear about that. Thanks.

[culicine]

The need to focus on developing teacher quality is also the main conclusion in the Grattan Institute report.

http://www.asianscie...-february-2012/

http://www.grattan.e...m_the_best.html

This report grew from a series of consultations in Melbourne in 2011 between Australian education authorities and representatives of education systems in Shanghai, Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore. The Australian Prime Minister and Education Minister also attended.

It's interesting though that Australia maintains its place in the top 10 of PISA rankings, yet university admission requirements for Education faculties continue to be lowered there. The best and brightest of Australian students are not applying to study Education. (Nevertheless, many teachers enter the profession via foundation degrees in Arts, Science, etc and then do a postgraduate Diploma in Education.)

Most western countries have workable class sizes, and cap the number of students in each class (say, up to 25/30 students). Thailand needs to address this issue first. Having 60-70 students in a class is only conducive to seat work, copying from the board, as we often see in Thai classes. There's little scope for group work, discussions, etc. We can then focus on teacher quality and training of them. Then there are a multitude of cultural impediments - can you imagine a students pointing out an error a teacher made on the board, or even simply asking questions of the teacher or their peers.

[blablablabla]

My understanding is that the exam is translated into the students language, but just so happens Singaproeans use english as their academic language. I'm sure Thai students get the equivalent exam in Thai language. So lack of english skills isn't the cause of the poor scores, rather the fact that Thai students don't learn in the manner which is conducive to good scores on this test.

Yes! Of course, ... Thais do write theirs in Thai! BUT, I was making a comment about the English-speaking students's records since it was mentioned!

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Most western countries have workable class sizes, and cap the number of students in each class (say, up to 25/30 students). Thailand needs to address this issue first. Having 60-70 students in a class is only conducive to seat work, copying from the board, as we often see in Thai classes. There's little scope for group work, discussions, etc. We can then focus on teacher quality and training of them. Then there are a multitude of cultural impediments - can you imagine a students pointing out an error a teacher made on the board, or even simply asking questions of the teacher or their peers.

It is true class sizes are too large, but I don't see how that can be solved first without doubling the number of teachers.

So if we're going to double the number of teachers, may as well make all the new ones of improved quality eh?

Places at the better schools and better teachers should be filled through competition, with the more ambitious and intelligent students.

Personally I think the starting point is completely dismantling the bureacracy and starting over, and most likely *replacing* the existing teachers, but of course that won't happen.

It does seem hopeless doesn't it. . .

[blablablabla]

Is it a question of budget?

Found a good article on the relationship of funding levels to test outcomes

My conclusions (not just from this):

One common factor in successful systems is that great emphasis is on recruiting, training and retaining top teachers. Shanghai seems to be very much "teach to the test", very intensive to the point of being detrimental to students' health, while Finland is the complete opposite, no standardized testing, no rating of schools, minimum time spent in school, very late starting ages, focus on learning itself for its own sake not "outcomes".

BTW, UK is 21st on the 2009 Pisa test. US, 18th, to add to the aforementioned list !

Yes, educators in native-English countries are well aware that their school systems are failing to meet the needs of their societies. I am a bit more hopeful they can solve the problem if they put their minds to it though. . .

Chances are that is more likely for it to complitely fall as it is so bending over already, that can't be straightened up anymore....

That's what she said

Thank you very, very much!

I was looking for budget info!

My thesis is that all that is mentioned in those reports miss the most important point of all, videlicet, that English spelling is such an irregular system that most --if not all-- speaking-countries, to merely hang in there, must spend a lot of money, deploy a lot of resources in the area of literacy and remediation! The simpler solution should be to look at reforming the spelling system NOT the kids or the teachers or the educational system! It seems that most people are missing the boat by a mile! The spelling system of English is so awful that it is very frustrating that no one wants to fix it, but lots of people are very happy to fix the kids who cannot cope with it! The blog mentioned above makes that case. WHY do people want to continue driving that old clunker of a system without doing anything about it (fix it or buy a better one)! This truly BAFFLES me ... and completely so!

Edited April 15, 2012 by blablablabla

[blablablabla]

The need to focus on developing teacher quality is also the main conclusion in the Grattan Institute report.

http://www.asianscie...-february-2012/

http://www.grattan.e...m_the_best.html

This report grew from a series of consultations in Melbourne in 2011 between Australian education authorities and representatives of education systems in Shanghai, Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore. The Australian Prime Minister and Education Minister also attended.

It's interesting though that Australia maintains its place in the top 10 of PISA rankings, yet university admission requirements for Education faculties continue to be lowered there. The best and brightest of Australian students are not applying to study Education. (Nevertheless, many teachers enter the profession via foundation degrees in Arts, Science, etc and then do a postgraduate Diploma in Education.)

Most western countries have workable class sizes, and cap the number of students in each class (say, up to 25/30 students). Thailand needs to address this issue first. Having 60-70 students in a class is only conducive to seat work, copying from the board, as we often see in Thai classes. There's little scope for group work, discussions, etc. We can then focus on teacher quality and training of them. Then there are a multitude of cultural impediments - can you imagine a students pointing out an error a teacher made on the board, or even simply asking questions of the teacher or their peers.

Those are very good points as far as Thai education is concerned! I remember listening to a violin teacher giving a recital! It must have been the most awful recital I have ever heard! The students were better, although I don't know how that could have happened!

[Xangsamhua]

Most western countries have workable class sizes, and cap the number of students in each class (say, up to 25/30 students). Thailand needs to address this issue first. Having 60-70 students in a class is only conducive to seat work, copying from the board, as we often see in Thai classes. There's little scope for group work, discussions, etc. We can then focus on teacher quality and training of them. Then there are a multitude of cultural impediments - can you imagine a students pointing out an error a teacher made on the board, or even simply asking questions of the teacher or their peers.

Average class sizes in the four top East Asian nations are as follows: Shanghai 40; Korea 35; Hong Kong 36; Singapore 35.

Compare with Australia 23; US 23, UK 21; EU 21.

Average teaching loads (hrs/wk): Shanghai 10-12; Korea 15; Hong Kong 17; Singapore (no data); Australia 20; US 30; UK 19; EU 17.

As a result, teachers in Shanghai spend many non-teaching hours each week in:

– classroom observation

– team teaching

– school-based research

– giving feedback

– identifying learning needs

– modeling good practice

– active collaboration

(Report: "Catching Up", p.15)

It should be noted that the non-teaching time of Shanghai teachers is programmed and structured. Teachers are not just left to their own devices.

In the US, by contrast, teachers have on average only 12 minutes between each class. (p.15)