Norway Gunman Breivik Pleads 'Not Guilty' At Oslo Trial

[Ulysses G.]

Breivik did not commit this crime because of Norway's immigration policy... he (as with other terrorists) committed this crime because he is a nutter...

As can be seen by his testimony so far and the long term planning involved in these attacks, this is not the work of a "nutter".

He killed 77 innocent children and did not help his cause or hurt his enemies' cause. No matter how you try to spin it, he is nothing but a hate-filled nut.

[folium]

In general, immigration to a country is a privilege, not a right. It needs to be up to each country to determine the number of people it wants to allow to resettle and the qualities of those people. Part of that test may very well be the ability of the person to adjust to the existing culture.

Not in all cases. Membership of the EU gives its member citizens the right to live and work wherever they choose. The big expansion in 2004 saw most countries (with the exception of the UK, Ireland and Sweden due to their chronic labour shortages) restrict this right for 7 years. But today migration within the EU is a legal right for all.

Interesting, given the audience of this forum, whether or not integration with local culture should be a hurdle for immigrants. I fear that this requirement would have a material impact on large numbers of the gallant immigrant population of Thailand. Personally I am all in favour of integration, compulsory or voluntary, and this country, and TV in particular, underlines its importance.

[folium]

Yeah Dan you make a good point however has Gentleman correctly wrote in his post #52 do you not honestly think that part of the growing problem is treating it with PC gloves ,instead of stamping it out at the offset, I just wonder on a time scale how long it would be before I was frog marched to Bangkok airport and deported, if I burned the Thai flag and screamed out that the Thai military were murderers ,with my passport stamped "NEVER TO RETURN"

So how would you go about "stamping it out at the offset (sic)"?

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed. This topic is not about rape cases in Norway.

[metisdead]

A post containing profanity has been removed, you're been warned for this before, eh.

3) Not to post in a manner that is vulgar, obscene or profane.

[ShanePashen]

I also believe there is only one fair punishment for mass murderers - a skydive without a parachute

I have never thought of that, I like it!

Seems very appropriate.

Can we add child murderers to that as well.

[ozsamurai]

Its not rocket science people, no religion or political persuasion would condone what he did, flat out murder. Pop his cork call it done and put the tax money that would be spend incarcerating him for the next 5 decades to better use. Perhaps multicultural awareness programs.. Curiosity in these kind of killers is just not healthy, but sure as day there will be a movie..

Oz

[endure]

Yeah Dan you make a good point however has Gentleman correctly wrote in his post #52 do you not honestly think that part of the growing problem is treating it with PC gloves ,instead of stamping it out at the offset, I just wonder on a time scale how long it would be before I was frog marched to Bangkok airport and deported, if I burned the Thai flag and screamed out that the Thai military were murderers ,with my passport stamped "NEVER TO RETURN"

So how would you go about "stamping it out at the offset (sic)"?

Maybe dealing with Immigrants the same as they deal with EX pats here in Thailand, were we are regarded as "ALIENS" which is very prominent on our 90 day "report" form for openers

The word 'ALIEN' is a legal term. It's got nothing to do with spaceships and green men. You'll find that you are an 'ALIEN' on any visa you obtain to visit the USA.

[metisdead]

Some more off topic posts and replies have been removed. Once again, this topic is about "Norway Gunman Breivik Pleads 'Not Guilty' at Oslo Trial", has nothing to do with rape cases in Norway. Posts which began off topic but ended relatively on topic have been removed as well. Stay on topic or your post(s) will be removed.

[Yunla]

Its not rocket science people, no religion or political persuasion would condone what he did, flat out murder. Pop his cork call it done and put the tax money that would be spend incarcerating him for the next 5 decades to better use. Perhaps multicultural awareness programs.. Curiosity in these kind of killers is just not healthy, but sure as day there will be a movie..

Oz

I agree with what you say about his crimes shouldn't be condoned & he should not get 5 decades of free meals & medical care & Playstation. If you are guilty beyond doubt, of any serious crime, you should wear leg irons and do heavy labor for the rest of your years, with no luxuries except the most basic cheap food.

As I said before I believe Breiviks attack had nothing to do with religion or immigration, it was just that he was a psychopath and his dominant pathology revolved around immigration. I'm also very interested in overpopulation globally, and immigration, and religion. but I don't kill people or even yell at them. So that means his attacks had nothing to do with those subjects & he committed those crimes only because he is a psychopath.

I would definitely amend the line about "no religions would condone what he did". The patriarchal religions are founded on smiting the unholy and dealing with opponents by killing them.

Koran 2:193: "And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah)"

Koran 9:5 "Then kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and seize them and besiege them & lie in wait for them in every ambush."

The Bible also had a lot of "by the sword" type stuff which I personally wouldn't let my young daughters read. I see the Bible and Koran as storybooks that show a snapshot of a barbaric and primitive era that is rightfully in the past & best left there. My faith is that peace comes before anything else and that the road to heaven lies within your heart & your acts of kindness to those around you, and not in the control of the material world be it land or other people.

The mainstream media saying that things like "you can't judge Islam or Christianity on what it says in the Koran and Bible" actually that is exactly how you should judge those religions because those are the instruction manuals that believers should follow as acts of faith.

Impressionable people can read those books and take them literally, just as some nazi idiot will probably read Breiviks blog and take it as 'gospel'. Books, especially religious texts, need to be treated as current documents because they are read today by young people, & not everyone reads them as a quaint piece of history, but as an instruction manual on life.

I am of the opinion that if there was a more honest debate about immigration, outdated religious practices, global overpopulation (which is reaching critical-mass), then killers like Breivik would have to find another excuse for their sick acts.

The western media's refusal to transparently debate the actual facts of global overpopulation & all aspects of religion, has contributed to the ignorance to which many bigots cling to.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Yunla

[folium]

In general, immigration to a country is a privilege, not a right. It needs to be up to each country to determine the number of people it wants to allow to resettle and the qualities of those people. Part of that test may very well be the ability of the person to adjust to the existing culture.

Cultures can and do change over time, but rapid change is generally viewed as negative and hard for everyone to adjust to.

I found the quiet of a Sunday morning as easily disturbed by the ringing of Church bells as I do for the call to prayer.

IMHO unless there is momentous change in Attitude of Government thinking both Central and local of the "host Country" it will only get worse , 15 years ago there was no Halal meat served up at school meals often without the white indigenous parents knowledge , they still had Nativity Plays in Schools at Christmas now in many schools they have been "discontinued" , they still had Nursery Rhymes like 3 little pigs and Baa baa black sheep ,we could fly the flag of St George on "our day" Without some left wing Council ordering us to take them down, we could wear a Crucifix round our necks with being suspended from work , Christmas trimmings outside ones house were not frowned upon by certain left wing councils I could go on and on writing the truth but guess I stop as the truth causes so much offence these days don't it

Hope you are wearing your red rose today.

[Colin Yai]

In general, immigration to a country is a privilege, not a right. It needs to be up to each country to determine the number of people it wants to allow to resettle and the qualities of those people. Part of that test may very well be the ability of the person to adjust to the existing culture.

Cultures can and do change over time, but rapid change is generally viewed as negative and hard for everyone to adjust to.

I found the quiet of a Sunday morning as easily disturbed by the ringing of Church bells as I do for the call to prayer.

IMHO unless there is momentous change in Attitude of Government thinking both Central and local of the "host Country" it will only get worse , 15 years ago there was no Halal meat served up at school meals often without the white indigenous parents knowledge , they still had Nativity Plays in Schools at Christmas now in many schools they have been "discontinued" , they still had Nursery Rhymes like 3 little pigs and Baa baa black sheep ,we could fly the flag of St George on "our day" Without some left wing Council ordering us to take them down, we could wear a Crucifix round our necks with being suspended from work , Christmas trimmings outside ones house were not frowned upon by certain left wing councils I could go on and on writing the truth but guess I stop as the truth causes so much offence these days don't it

Hope you are wearing your red rose today.

I could reply but it may be deemed offensive and off topic,, and instead of coming out with wisecracks why not try and discount the content of my previous post!? Edited April 23, 2012 by Colin Yai

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been deleted.

[NxaiPan]

why not try and discount the content of my previous post!?

[olsen]

Hmmm... Psychiatrists states that Breivik is not insane...

So what is he then?

[folium]

Hmmm... Psychiatrists states that Breivik is not insane...

So what is he then?

As can be seen by his testimony so far and the long term planning involved in these attacks (he appears to have started in 2006), this is not the work of a "nutter". While his actions and beliefs certainly would appear insane to any rational person capable of thought and reason, what we have is the "logical" endgame (at least to such people as Brievik) of extreme islamophobic, anti-immigration ideology.

Murdering fellow Norwegians he believed to be responsible for fostering multiculturalism and the creation of "Eurabia", makes "sense" to someone who has fallen hook, line & sinker for such drivel. Similar to the confused logic of Vietnam encapsulated in the infamous 1968 Ben Tre comment allegedly recorded by Peter Arnett; "'It became necessary to destroy the town to save it', a United States major said today. He was talking about the decision by allied commanders to bomb and shell the town regardless of civilian casualties, to rout the Vietcong."

Looks like Brievik is a fan of the Ben Tre school of operating as he has just said in court this morning that his attacks represented "a small barbarian act to prevent a larger barbarian act".

Sadly Brievik is far from alone when it comes to believing in such a dangerous, radical philosophy. The internet groans with devotees of the likes of Fjordman (Brievik's all time favourite and repeatedly quoted in his manifesto), Gates of Vienna, Vlad Tepes etc, and these devotees tend to be misfit, young males who can be "groomed" into terrorist actions by such dangerous philosophies. Luckily most never get further than their armchairs and just chew up bandwidth.

Extremists, whether they be Timothy McVeigh (and his hatred of government), Baruch Goldstein & Eden Natan-Zada (followers of Kahanism) or David Copeland, Franz Fuchs, John Ausonius, & Anders Brievik (racism/Islamophobia), all underline how a tiny but deadly minority can lapse into terrorism when they fall for simplistic, nihilistic philosophies where violent acts appear to become a "logical" extension and next step.

Edited April 23, 2012 by folium

[Ulysses G.]

While his actions and beliefs certainly would appear insane to any rational person capable of thought and reason, what we have is the "logical" endgame (at least to such people as Brievik) of extreme islamophobic, anti-immigration ideology.

I other words, a delusional nutter. Charles Manson made up a bunch of wacky reasons for Helter Skelter, but he was just trying to justify hate.

By the way, the Ben Tre "quote" has always been in dispute. Arnett would never name the "Major" who supposedly said it and many people think that he just made it up.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[folium]

While his actions and beliefs certainly would appear insane to any rational person capable of thought and reason, what we have is the "logical" endgame (at least to such people as Brievik) of extreme islamophobic, anti-immigration ideology.

I other words, a delusional nutter. Charles Manson made up a bunch of wacky reasons for Helter Skelter, but he was just trying to justify hate.

By the way, the Ben Tre "quote" has always been in dispute. Arnett would never name the "Major" who supposedly said it and many people think that he just made it up.

Looks like Brievik has now created an authentic Ben Tre quote with his "small barbarian act..." line.

Still think that "nutter" is too easy a cop-out and just distracts from the fact that he is a hate-filled person and probable sociopath, who has taken the extremist dogma to its appalling "logical" conclusion.

[Ulysses G.]

To me, a hate-filled person and probable sociopath who kills 77 children is a nutter. The extremist dogma is just an excuse to do what he wants to do anyway. If it was not this justification for killing it would just be something else.

[Scott]

I think we can drop the silly discussion of 'nutter'. If you wish to talk about insanity, and you know anything about the legal definition used in Norway, then do so.

This is going no where except baiting posters and will result in suspensions.

[Steely Dan]

Further to my post Brit1984 , yeah I agree, thankfully Brevik was indeed a crazed loner ,and now that threat has been removed from Society ,the big problem with Radical Islam is that there are tens of thousands no one really knows how many, never the less they do exist world wide who wish to destroy our religion and way of life through mass murder and intimidation (Jihad) ,that is the simple truth of the matter nothing more nothing less .

Sadly Brievik is far from alone when it comes to believing in a dangerous, radical philosophy. The internet groans with devotees of the likes of Fjordman (Brievik's all time favourite and repeatedly quoted in his manifesto), Gates of Vienna, Vlad Tepes etc, and these devotees tend to be misfit, white, young males who can be "groomed" into terrorist actions by such dangerous philosophies.

However the anti-multiculturalists have seldom harmed anyone, Breivik being the exception to the rule, whilst Islamic extremists have amassed over 18,500 terror attacks since 9/11. So tell me what the real dangerous radical philosophy is.

[Steely Dan]

As can be seen by his testimony so far and the long term planning involved in these attacks (he appears to have started in 2006), this is not the work of a "nutter". While his actions and beliefs certainly would appear insane to any rational person capable of thought and reason, what we have is the "logical" endgame (at least to such people as Brievik) of extreme islamophobic, anti-immigration ideology.

You can either accept Breiviks sanity or not, it's for the Courts and appointed experts to decide. However should you conclude rational premeditation in order to conflate his actions inaccurately with those who do not espouse violence then you are opening a Pandora's box when the misdeeds of their opponents get an airing too. As for the word Islamophobia, it is merely a cynical manipulative device to stifle free speech.

http://ricochet.com/...own-Your-Throat

Abdur-Rahman Muhammad, a former member of the IIIT who has renounced the group in disgust, was an eyewitness to the creation of the word. "This loathsome term," he writes,is nothing more than a thought-terminating cliche conceived in the bowels of Muslim think tanks for the purpose of beating down critics.

And perhaps in an environment less stifled by PC dogma Breivik might not have used violence the way he did.

P.S Just for perspective Jews are 8 times more likely to suffer racist attacks than Muslims, and 70% of those attacks are indeed by Muslims, and it's not Islamophobic to state this.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Steely Dan

[endure]

A quote from Breivik in today's court procededings. He was talking about Adrian Pracon - the son of Polish immigrants:

"Breivik said: 'Certain people look more leftist than others. This person appeared right-wing, that was his appearance. That's the reason I didn't fire any shots at him. When I looked at him I saw myself.'"

[folium]

Further to my post Brit1984 , yeah I agree, thankfully Brevik was indeed a crazed loner ,and now that threat has been removed from Society ,the big problem with Radical Islam is that there are tens of thousands no one really knows how many, never the less they do exist world wide who wish to destroy our religion and way of life through mass murder and intimidation (Jihad) ,that is the simple truth of the matter nothing more nothing less .

Sadly Brievik is far from alone when it comes to believing in a dangerous, radical philosophy. The internet groans with devotees of the likes of Fjordman (Brievik's all time favourite and repeatedly quoted in his manifesto), Gates of Vienna, Vlad Tepes etc, and these devotees tend to be misfit, white, young males who can be "groomed" into terrorist actions by such dangerous philosophies.

However the anti-multiculturalists have seldom harmed anyone, Breivik being the exception to the rule, whilst Islamic extremists have amassed over 18,500 terror attacks since 9/11. So tell me what the real dangerous radical philosophy is.

Well, right-wing extremists in recent years have not been that peaceful. Between them a selection of such criminals namely Timothy McVeigh, Baruch Goldstein, Eden Natan-Zada, David Copeland, Franz Fuchs, John Ausonius, & Anders Brievik have murdered 296 people and brought devastation to the families of their victims.

I absolutely and without reservation condemn and abhor any form of extremist, hate philosophy that inspires terroristic murders whether it be right-wing, left-wing; christian, muslim or atheist; black or white. Those who incite and feed nihilistic concepts into the minds of potential murderers are as culpable as those who actually commit the crimes. Are you prepared to condemn without equivocation all who inspire such terroristic murders?

Charles Manson was mentioned in an earlier post and he was jailed (even though he committed no murders himself) on the concept of the joint-responsibility rule, which makes each member of a conspiracy guilty of crimes his fellow conspirators commit in furtherance of the conspiracy's object. This would certainly sort out those who peddle hate speech.

Edited April 23, 2012 by folium

[Steely Dan]

I absolutely and without reservation condemn and abhor any form of extremist, hate philosophy that inspires terroristic murders whether it be right-wing, left-wing; christian, muslim or atheist; black or white. Those who incite and feed nihilistic concepts into the minds of potential murderers are as culpable as those who actually commit the crimes. Are you prepared to condemn without equivocation all who inspire such terroristic murders?

Yes. However if you choose to use Breiviks rambling manifesto of influences to determine who inspired him you have to take the lot, lock, stock and barrel as oppose to singling out a few to support an agenda, so both Thomas Jefferson and Gandhi would be included . Incidentally Baruch Goldstein, who you are so fond of mentioning led to one million Israelis marching in condemnation of his actions, I wonder how big a march there was in Saudi Arabia after the 9/11 bombings?

Edit: As for Charles Manson, did he advocate violence to support his ideology? This is where your simile blows up. There are indeed religious texts which would attract criminal sanction if they were a person being tried for so called 'hate speech'.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Steely Dan

[folium]

I absolutely and without reservation condemn and abhor any form of extremist, hate philosophy that inspires terroristic murders whether it be right-wing, left-wing; christian, muslim or atheist; black or white. Those who incite and feed nihilistic concepts into the minds of potential murderers are as culpable as those who actually commit the crimes. Are you prepared to condemn without equivocation all who inspire such terroristic murders?

Yes. However if you choose to use Breiviks rambling manifesto of influences to determine who inspired him you have to take the lot, lock, stock and barrel as oppose to singling out a few to support an agenda. Incidentally Baruch Goldstein, who you are so fond of mentioning led to one million Israelis marching in condemnation of his actions, I wonder how big a march there was in Saudi Arabia after the 9/11 bombings?

Edit: As for Charles Manson, did he advocate violence to support his ideology? This is where your simile blows up. There are indeed religious texts which would attract criminal sanction if they were a person being tried for so called 'hate speech'.

Personally I am quite free of any "agenda" apart from a revulsion of all extremists, of both the murderous and inciting types. Fjordman is as culpable as an Abu Qatada, as is anyone who simplifies reality down to confrontational philosophies which only serve to mobilize the murderous and exacerbate the overall situation.

Islamophobia, antisemitism, racism etc all revolve around hate speech and limited facts and, as can be seen throughout history, can facilitate mass murder. Brievik is just one of the latest products of such hate speech as was Mohammed Merah in France.

re Charles Manson suggest you read up on his Helter Skelter scenario where he sought to trigger a race war and the Tate-LaBianca murders were the first victims.

re Goldstein sadly some people in Israel rejoiced at his actions and his tomb became a shrine for such extremists until it was finally bulldozed by the IDF in 1999 after the Israeli government passed a law outlawing monuments to terrorism.

[Steely Dan]

Fortunately at the moment it is within the bounds of free speech to criticize a violent supremacist ideology. Though the OIC and their left wing allies are intent on eroding such rights. Seeing as you are appointing yourself as judge and jury for Fjordman I think you may like this.

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/04/23/the-norway-killer-trial-week-one/

[folium]

Fortunately at the moment it is within the bounds of free speech to criticize a violent supremacist ideology. Though the OIC and their left wing allies are intent on eroding such rights. Seeing as you are appointing yourself as judge and jury for Fjordman I think you may like this.

http://frontpagemag....trial-week-one/

Particularly enjoyed the responses to Fjordman's grotesque ass-covering distraction exercise. Seems that the Manson simile has some mileage in the Brievik case.

"It's the way Charles Manson excelled at committing murder. You simply vilify the target repeatedly, point out the target, explain how they are causing the sky to fall, publish all their information and then let your minions take up the cue. Then you can deny ever having given the order. Breivik is Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller and Peder Jensen's Tex Watson. These guys kept saying now is the time for Helter Skelter against the multiculturalists, then Breivik did their bidding."

Edited April 23, 2012 by folium

[Colin Yai]

As can be seen by his testimony so far and the long term planning involved in these attacks (he appears to have started in 2006), this is not the work of a "nutter". While his actions and beliefs certainly would appear insane to any rational person capable of thought and reason, what we have is the "logical" endgame (at least to such people as Brievik) of extreme islamophobic, anti-immigration ideology.

You can either accept Breiviks sanity or not, it's for the Courts and appointed experts to decide. However should you conclude rational premeditation in order to conflate his actions inaccurately with those who do not espouse violence then you are opening a Pandora's box when the misdeeds of their opponents get an airing too. As for the word Islamophobia, it is merely a cynical manipulative device to stifle free speech.

http://ricochet.com/...own-Your-Throat

Abdur-Rahman Muhammad, a former member of the IIIT who has renounced the group in disgust, was an eyewitness to the creation of the word. "This loathsome term," he writes,is nothing more than a thought-terminating cliche conceived in the bowels of Muslim think tanks for the purpose of beating down critics.

And perhaps in an environment less stifled by PC dogma Breivik might not have used violence the way he did.

P.S Just for perspective Jews are 8 times more likely to suffer racist attacks than Muslims, and 70% of those attacks are indeed by Muslims, and it's not Islamophobic to state this.

Indeed Dan, For sure its highly doubtful he would have carried out this heinous crime if he was Dutch and lived in his own Country!!. Edited April 24, 2012 by Colin Yai

[mca]

I feel they should leave the families of the victims with him alone in a sound-proof room for a couple of hours. Maybe have a conveniently placed table of power tools, surgical instruments etc within easy reach Let them be the judge of his sanity and views on mulitculturalism. .