Norway Gunman Breivik Pleads 'Not Guilty' At Oslo Trial

[Steely Dan]

Fortunately at the moment it is within the bounds of free speech to criticize a violent supremacist ideology. Though the OIC and their left wing allies are intent on eroding such rights. Seeing as you are appointing yourself as judge and jury for Fjordman I think you may like this.

http://frontpagemag....trial-week-one/

Particularly enjoyed the responses to Fjordman's grotesque ass-covering distraction exercise. Seems that the Manson simile has some mileage in the Brievik case.

"It's the way Charles Manson excelled at committing murder. You simply vilify the target repeatedly, point out the target, explain how they are causing the sky to fall, publish all their information and then let your minions take up the cue. Then you can deny ever having given the order. Breivik is Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller and Peder Jensen's Tex Watson. These guys kept saying now is the time for Helter Skelter against the multiculturalists, then Breivik did their bidding."

I note that the discussion of Norwegian rape statistics was ruled offside for this topic, though apparently discussion of multiculturalism is considered on topic. So I think it pertinent to examine whether or not any of Fjordman's observations hold water. Whether it is crime statistics, jail populations or sundry other criteria, the answer is a resounding 'YES', so I conclude it to be fair comment, whilst had he made similar comment about say Chinese immigrants it would not have been fair comment.

But as Pam Geller stated (who is no doubt another of your favourites) - Truth is the new hate speech.

[Yunla]

Breivik, Manson etc. had no agenda at all, they were just psychotics. In Mansons case he and the 'family' were all taking regular high doses of LSD. Those kids were high as kites and exposed to the rantings of a career-criminal and unchecked psychotic. Manson pretty much hated everyone except himself & his gang. I think the black-hate thing is true but only against a background of him hating pretty much everything. Torturing and murdering an innocent pregnant white woman in her own home, doesnt actually strike a blow for white-power or for anything else.

The problem is that Breivik, if we can overlook the fact he is a mass-murderer & a genuine linear psychotic, is still not putting forward any ideas or anything that even closely resembles logical social science. If he had REALLY wanted to influence immigration, or at least educate people about it, he should have become a writer or a politician or sociologist. Geert Wilders, has influenced millions of people in the political mainstream, with his theories of immigration and Islam etc. in Northern Europe, and is now of course living under an islamic death-order & has to have bodyguards 24/7. But if you agree with him or not (I don't), he wrote books and blogs and did seminars etc. That is what you should do if you disagree with immigration or theocracy etc.

Its such a huge Logic-Fail to even talk about psychotic murderers in the context of modern sociology, when you pick up that gun or meat cleaver or whatever you also put down the right to be taken seriously in a modern logical context.

And again I feel that the Western Media has grown & nurtured this kind of dumb bigoted ignorance. If there was open logic-based social-science debate allowed in TV & newspapers etc., without the fear of "offending people" (of any faith / creed) then these subjects would not be misunderstood by so many people.

For example - why is there mass-immigration. Breivik & others say it is because "they are invading us" etc. That is not actually true. There is one real reason for mass immigration, it is the same reason as mass-unemployment. The answer is 'global overpopulation', which is the problem, there are simply too many people on Earth to provide stable jobs / food / water / land for everyone. Scientists have long said the tipping-point was 6 Billion, and that the "Boom Years" were when there was 3-4 billion. Now it is 7 billion and rising exponentially.

Huge numbers of people lowers the value of each individual, it is the law of 'supply & demand' as applied to humans. Industrialised societies with established rule of law have managed to compartmentalise and slot large numbers of people into small land areas and try to keep the whole thing ticking over with welfare for the poor etc. In undeveloped countries that does not happen, large numbers just mean that peoples' individual worth reaches null-point and they are 100% disposable playthings of despots & theocrats.

As such, the people immigrating are not the problem. The problem is that the industrial & enlightened West has failed to adress global overpopulation or even try to discuss it or deal with it on any level, we even go to these poor countries & tell them not to wear condoms or have abortions because Jesus says its sinful.

Putting up fences or detention centres or fishing sunken rafts out of the sea is not the solution, neither is discussing it as a racial issue or letting it all fester in the sphere of hatred in which psychotics like Breivik are incubated.The only actual solution is for people globally to stop over-breeding (that of course requires unprecedented mass-education) & to continue assisting the poorest nations to build up stable agriculture & law etc. in their homelands. It is a massive & complicated and urgent task, and that is why the media and politicians don't even try to deal with it.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Yunla

[Scott]

Posts containing references to Israel and Palestine have been deleted. You will have to find other examples to use. It just doesn't happen that Israel and Palestine can be used as an example without derailing the entire thread.

The discussion of others is interesting, however, please note that the thread is about Brevik and tangential discussions need to remain just that.

Added: Another off-topic post has been deleted. The population in China and Africa is not appropriate.

[mackes]

The Brevik act is a story about a misfit and probably ill man. Not about politics or immigration. He have no support in the global community at all.

So don't try to explain this with overpopulation or religion!

[Colin Yai]

Posts containing references to Israel and Palestine have been deleted. You will have to find other examples to use. It just doesn't happen that Israel and Palestine can be used as an example without derailing the entire thread.

The discussion of others is interesting, however, please note that the thread is about Brevik and tangential discussions need to remain just that.

Added: Another off-topic post has been deleted. The population in China and Africa is not appropriate.

Scott I was merely Answering Yunla's excellent post who mentioned world over population , and the answer is to globally stop world over breeding ,which is a good idea but totally impossible to implement.

[Scott]

I know what you were doing. You were taking the thread off-topic.

Posters use examples. The example, however, is not topic.

Stay on-topic and do not discuss moderation in the open forum.

[geriatrickid]

There is a big thick line that divides the definition of sanity for legal purposes and sanity as used by mental health professionals.

The fundamental issue for legal sanity is whether the accused knew right from wrong and could understand the difference. Apaprently, the accused did know right from wrong. For a layman, it's quite simple: Legally sane, but dangerously mentally ill. It's like people that do self harm, or are paranoid. They know that killing people is wrong, but their daily behaviour is hardly indicative of someone that is all there in the head.

[folium]

Fortunately at the moment it is within the bounds of free speech to criticize a violent supremacist ideology. Though the OIC and their left wing allies are intent on eroding such rights. Seeing as you are appointing yourself as judge and jury for Fjordman I think you may like this.

http://frontpagemag....trial-week-one/

Particularly enjoyed the responses to Fjordman's grotesque ass-covering distraction exercise. Seems that the Manson simile has some mileage in the Brievik case.

"It's the way Charles Manson excelled at committing murder. You simply vilify the target repeatedly, point out the target, explain how they are causing the sky to fall, publish all their information and then let your minions take up the cue. Then you can deny ever having given the order. Breivik is Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller and Peder Jensen's Tex Watson. These guys kept saying now is the time for Helter Skelter against the multiculturalists, then Breivik did their bidding."

I note that the discussion of Norwegian rape statistics was ruled offside for this topic, though apparently discussion of multiculturalism is considered on topic. So I think it pertinent to examine whether or not any of Fjordman's observations hold water. Whether it is crime statistics, jail populations or sundry other criteria, the answer is a resounding 'YES', so I conclude it to be fair comment, whilst had he made similar comment about say Chinese immigrants it would not have been fair comment.

But as Pam Geller stated (who is no doubt another of your favourites) - Truth is the new hate speech.

Whether its the fallacious spectre of the alien defiler of womenfolk that played so well in segregationist USA, or the demographically/historically flawed threat of "Eurabia" the peddlers of provocative misinformation that will inspire further Brievik's, fit nicely into the Manson mould.

Hate speech and truth rarely share the same bed, but the former has a distinct role to play. Sadly innocent people often have to pay the price for such an agenda of incitement.

[folium]

And perhaps in an environment less stifled by PC dogma Breivik might not have used violence the way he did.

So "PC dogma" now gets the blame for Brievik's murder of 77 innocent people?

A more likely causative dogma is that of the "protect indigenous people, kick out the muslims" approach, taken to its brutal conclusion where Brievik's "small barbarian act to prevent a larger barbarian act" is the endgame.

Now where have we heard/seen that dogma before?

[Yunla]

I suppose another parallel example would be Harold Shipman.

It is a well known fact that medicine and better diet have led to a huge increase in old people across the world, including the UK where Shipman was hunting. If he had claimed he had murdered countless (218 minimum) old-age pensioners because there was a massively increasing number of old people in the UK, would you consider him a sane person who was just acting on his sense of social justice in what he saw as a out-of-control rise in a that given social group. How is this different from saying 'I killed 80 people because theres a lot more immigrants in our society today". Shipman would not even been allowed to spout that type of zero-logic nonsense in court, and yet for some reason Breivik was allowed to put forward his "reasons" instead of just being put in leg-irons and sent off to work in a quarry somewhere as soon as he was caught.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Yunla

[koheesti]

There is one real reason for mass immigration, it is the same reason as mass-unemployment. The answer is 'global overpopulation', which is the problem, there are simply too many people on Earth to provide stable jobs / food / water / land for everyone. Scientists have long said the tipping-point was 6 Billion, and that the "Boom Years" were when there was 3-4 billion. Now it is 7 billion and rising exponentially.

If you could stand up each man, woman, and child on the planet - shoulder to shoulder - they would fit on Singapore (true, do the math). So over-population is not a reason for mass immigration. The people emigrating are moving from countries that don't provide the same benefits (health, education, work, freedom, - even democracy!) as the countries they are leaving. So what is the real solution?

Edited April 24, 2012 by koheesti

[koheesti]

You can either accept Breiviks sanity or not, it's for the Courts and appointed experts to decide.

Legally, yes, But personally speaking, I don't need a court or some "expert" to tell me that Breiviks is insane. No more than I need an expert to tell me someone who is crawling around the park on all fours, barking like a dog and eating dog crap is insane.

Edited April 24, 2012 by koheesti

[Steely Dan]

Whether its the fallacious spectre of the alien defiler of womenfolk that played so well in segregationist USA, or the demographically/historically flawed threat of "Eurabia" the peddlers of provocative misinformation that will inspire further Brievik's, fit nicely into the Manson mould.

Hate speech and truth rarely share the same bed, but the former has a distinct role to play. Sadly innocent people often have to pay the price for such an agenda of incitement.

Fallacious. Let us just say the wall of silence is starting to show cracks. As I posted previously, even other ethnic minorities such as the Sikhs are enraged by the grooming of underage girls by Pakistani Muslim gangs. I gave a list and defy you to produce a similar list for any other group. I will grant you this is but circumstantial evidence, however also consider the fact that Muslims comprise some 12.6% of the prison population which is overwhelmingly greater than their 3% share of the UK population would suggest merely by chance. I can give similar figures for many European Countries, so the evidence is pretty compelling.

I would add that I have no truck with vigilantism or violence of any sort, but do believe an honest airing of the issues and police protecting and prosecuting in a completely consistent way is not too much to ask for. Perhaps this is a lesson Norway should take on board.

[Colin Yai]

There is one real reason for mass immigration, it is the same reason as mass-unemployment. The answer is 'global overpopulation', which is the problem, there are simply too many people on Earth to provide stable jobs / food / water / land for everyone. Scientists have long said the tipping-point was 6 Billion, and that the "Boom Years" were when there was 3-4 billion. Now it is 7 billion and rising exponentially.

If you could stand up each man, woman, and child on the planet - shoulder to shoulder - they would fit on Singapore (true, do the math). So over-population is not a reason for mass immigration. The people emigrating are moving from countries that don't provide the same benefits (health, education, work, freedom, - even democracy!) as the countries they are leaving. So what is the real solution?

De rail the Western "gravy train" ?

[Yunla]

If you could stand up each man, woman, and child on the planet - shoulder to shoulder - they would fit on Singapore (true, do the math). So over-population is not a reason for mass immigration. The people emigrating are moving from countries that don't provide the same benefits (health, education, work, freedom, - even democracy!) as the countries they are leaving. So what is the real solution?

I agree with your general point that there is no easy solution.

RE: global overpopulation Its not really about shoulder-to-shoulder floor space. The problem is resources, farming land, fish in the sea, fuel, electric etc. You probably know that a lot of our agricultural land in the West has been over-farmed so intensively that it no longer supports healthy crops. This has been intensively farmed to feed the growing populations quickly and cheaply. Using drift-nets in the oceans to get fish for billions of people has brought many ocean species to extinction. Fossil fuels are also finite. Making plastic and other chemical items, and transport-fuel, for 7 billion people causes massive pollution, on an ecosystem already under stress.

If you only have to feed and clothe a small population, you don't have to farm the land into dust or dredge the sea or pollute everything, but that becomes a "necessary evil" when you have a massively overpopulated world like ours now is rapidly becoming.

And of course the clock didn't stop ticking at 7 billion it is growing exponentially and many cultures/religions practice male-heir patriarchy where the wife is forced to keep bearing children until there is 8~ or more sons, which can mean 20 kids under one roof. So the 7 billion number will go 'through the roof' over the next 50 years.

As for your statement, that immigration is to countries (for example Europe) where there is (percieved) better jobs & health etc., you should remember there is mass-unemployment across Europe and economic failure & high prices too. So many of those people are only going to be in the same or worse situation. Many people moved to the UK from Poland and Estonia etc. in the 90s when the economy in the UK was okay, they are moving back to Poland now because its easier to get work there in their home countries.

I was a migrant child moving across Europe with my mother. I have nothing against immigrants from anywhere, I understand that people have dreams of better lives etc. Migration is an effect though, it is not a cause, IMO.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Yunla

[koheesti]

If you only have to feed and clothe a small population, you don't have to farm the land into dust or dredge the sea or pollute everything, but that becomes a "necessary evil" when you have a massively overpopulated world like ours now is rapidly becoming.

And of course the clock didn't stop ticking at 7 billion it is growing exponentially and many cultures/religions practice male-heir patriarchy where the wife is forced to keep bearing children until there is 8~ or more sons, which can mean 20 kids under one roof. So the 7 billion number will go 'through the roof' over the next 50 years.

Of course less resources are needed for a smaller population. What should we do - mass sterilization? Promote nuclear war? That would knock out a billion here or there. Unfortunately, it would mostly kill productive people on fertile land and we can't have that. Anyway, it all starts to sound too much like the plot of Moonraker.

As for your statement, that immigration is to countries (for example Europe) where there is (percieved) better jobs & health etc., you should remember there is mass-unemployment across Europe and economic failure & high prices too. So many of those people are only going to be in the same or worse situation. Many people moved to the UK from Poland and Estonia etc. in the 90s when the economy in the UK was okay, they are moving back to Poland now because its easier to get work there in their home countries.

1) As bad as it gets in Europe, it is still much, much better than in Pakistan, Algeria and other 3rd world countries.

2) Europe's multicultural "problem" doesn't include other Europeans (Poles, Estonians) moving around Europe.

[Yunla]

[Of course less resources are needed for a smaller population. What should we do - mass sterilization? Promote nuclear war? That would knock out a billion here or there. Unfortunately, it would mostly kill productive people on fertile land and we can't have that. Anyway, it all starts to sound too much like the plot of Moonraker.

I mentioned earlier in the post you replied to, that global mass-education would be the only way. And that it is massive difficult project to undertake. I never said sterilization. I said education and even then it is not a guarantee.

I think you can extrapolate forwards on the population increase curve, it is an inevitability of disaster.

I like this website as a interesting site : http://www.breathingearth.net/

but it doesn't offer any solution beyond the simple obvious one that we need to slow down. IMO racists including Breivik are probably frightened of being overwhelmed, but my point is it is not just european-immigration fear that people have, there is a species-fear of the human race becoming so big that there becomes only animalistic & territorial conflicts, with wars over basic farming and drinking rights.

Europe's multicultural "problem" doesn't include other Europeans (Poles, Estonians) moving around Europe

You should read the UK tabloids for the last 15 years, its all about Poles coming over to steal UK plumbing & building jobs & how they undercut local workers rates. The irony now is that many East Europeans are moving back home because the Uk market is flatlining.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Yunla

[Colin Yai]

[Of course less resources are needed for a smaller population. What should we do - mass sterilization? Promote nuclear war? That would knock out a billion here or there. Unfortunately, it would mostly kill productive people on fertile land and we can't have that. Anyway, it all starts to sound too much like the plot of Moonraker.

I mentioned earlier in the post you replied to, that global mass-education would be the only way. And that it is massive difficult project to undertake. I never said sterilization. I said education and even then it is not a guarantee.

I think you can extrapolate forwards on the population increase curve, it is an inevitability of disaster.

I like this website as a interesting site : http://www.breathingearth.net/

but it doesn't offer any solution beyond the simple obvious one that we need to slow down. IMO racists including Breivik are probably frightened of being overwhelmed, but my point is it is not just european-immigration fear that people have, there is a species-fear of the human race becoming so big that there becomes only animalistic & territorial conflicts, with wars over basic farming and drinking rights.

Europe's multicultural "problem" doesn't include other Europeans (Poles, Estonians) moving around Europe

You should read the UK tabloids for the last 15 years, its all about Poles coming over to steal UK plumbing & building jobs & how they undercut local workers rates. The irony now is that many East Europeans are moving back home because the Uk market is flatlining.

Yeah Yunla in some ways you are right,but there is not a virtual army of people employed by our Security services to keep tabs on the Poles are there? ,and unless one has been living on the planet Zog for the last decade we should all know as to just who and why !.

[mackes]

This thread has turned into a debate on overpopulation in the world which means

the insane man in Norway have made his voice heard and his arguments are accepted.

This is really the danger with media today that they report everything and people can

not sort out insane ideas from reality.

This man was Norwegian and the event took place in Norway. Norway is one of the least

populated country in the world (#164 of 193) with 15 persons per square km and have one of

the strongest economies in the world with it's natural resource of oil and is not a member of the EU.

So immigration is absolutely not a big problem in Norway. Period.

[olsen]

A quote from Breivik in today's court procededings. He was talking about Adrian Pracon - the son of Polish immigrants:

"Breivik said: 'Certain people look more leftist than others. This person appeared right-wing, that was his appearance. That's the reason I didn't fire any shots at him. When I looked at him I saw myself.'"

Which tells me that Anders Breivik IS insane!

[olsen]

This thread has turned into a debate on overpopulation in the world which means

the insane man in Norway have made his voice heard and his arguments are accepted.

This is really the danger with media today that they report everything and people can

not sort out insane ideas from reality.

This man was Norwegian and the event took place in Norway. Norway is one of the least

populated country in the world (#164 of 193) with 15 persons per square km and have one of

the strongest economies in the world with it's natural resource of oil and is not a member of the EU.

So immigration is absolutely not a big problem in Norway. Period.

Exactly! Just my words!

[Yunla]

IMO internet and other media are the forum to discuss these subjects in a logical way, its healthy to discuss social issues. However I don't think Breiviks actions are related to the actual phenomena of immigration or islam despite what he says, his actions are related to him being a psychopath. I think he should be in leg-chains, and digging holes somewhere right now. And if he tries to tell the guards what he thinks about foreigners they should say "<deleted> & keep digging."

Edited April 24, 2012 by Yunla

[Steely Dan]

[Of course less resources are needed for a smaller population. What should we do - mass sterilization? Promote nuclear war? That would knock out a billion here or there. Unfortunately, it would mostly kill productive people on fertile land and we can't have that. Anyway, it all starts to sound too much like the plot of Moonraker.

I mentioned earlier in the post you replied to, that global mass-education would be the only way. And that it is massive difficult project to undertake. I never said sterilization. I said education and even then it is not a guarantee.

I think you can extrapolate forwards on the population increase curve, it is an inevitability of disaster.

I like this website as a interesting site : http://www.breathingearth.net/

but it doesn't offer any solution beyond the simple obvious one that we need to slow down. IMO racists including Breivik are probably frightened of being overwhelmed, but my point is it is not just european-immigration fear that people have, there is a species-fear of the human race becoming so big that there becomes only animalistic & territorial conflicts, with wars over basic farming and drinking rights.

Europe's multicultural "problem" doesn't include other Europeans (Poles, Estonians) moving around Europe

You should read the UK tabloids for the last 15 years, its all about Poles coming over to steal UK plumbing & building jobs & how they undercut local workers rates. The irony now is that many East Europeans are moving back home because the Uk market is flatlining.

When the music stops everyone runs for a chair, elsewhere. It's not just the Poles who want to leave

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4257682/48-of-Brits-want-to-get-out-of-Britain-says-new-Sun-survey.html

ALMOST half of all Britons are “seriously considering” moving overseas, an exclusive survey for The Sun has found.

[Colin Yai]

IMO internet and other media are the forum to discuss these subjects in a logical way, its healthy to discuss social issues. However I don't think Breiviks actions are related to the actual phenomena of immigration or islam despite what he says, his actions are related to him being a psychopath. I think he should be in leg-chains, and digging holes somewhere right now. And if he tries to tell the guards what he thinks about foreigners they should say "<deleted> & keep digging."

So in essence Yunla whatever Brevik says about Islam in his trial (or any one else world wide ) for that matter it should be completely disregarded out of hand as ultra right wing fascism .

[folium]

When the music stops everyone runs for a chair, elsewhere. It's not just the Poles who want to leave

http://www.thesun.co...Sun-survey.html

ALMOST half of all Britons are “seriously considering” moving overseas, an exclusive survey for The Sun has found.

Polls from the Sun, jeez you really are scraping the barrel now.

What will it be next, "editorials" from the Daily Mail on immigration and muslims?

[Steely Dan]

When the music stops everyone runs for a chair, elsewhere. It's not just the Poles who want to leave

http://www.thesun.co...Sun-survey.html

ALMOST half of all Britons are “seriously considering” moving overseas, an exclusive survey for The Sun has found.

Polls from the Sun, jeez you really are scraping the barrel now.

What will it be next, "editorials" from the Daily Mail on immigration and muslims?

When you are reduced to source policing you really don't have much of an argument do you? Thanks for reminding me about the Mail though as Melanie Phillips has just penned an article about the witch hunt to prosecute the president of the Danish free press society. It truly is a repugnant alliance of the far left and Islamic religious far right to destroy free speech.

In decadent Europe, freedom of speech is dying. Loudly trumpeted as a ‘human right’ for any attacks on America, Israel, Christians or on the core values of the west, it is swiftly transformed into ‘hate speech’ and the shutters are slammed down on the speaker whenever Islam is in the frame.

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1sxX80yuU

Edited April 24, 2012 by Steely Dan

[Colin Yai]

An excellent article (thanks) Dan which I suggest others read it and make any comments ,however I get the distinct feeling that no comment will be forth coming ,and whatever Brevik says if it insults Islam it will be totally disregarded .

Edited April 24, 2012 by Colin Yai

[folium]

IMO internet and other media are the forum to discuss these subjects in a logical way, its healthy to discuss social issues. However I don't think Breiviks actions are related to the actual phenomena of immigration or islam despite what he says, his actions are related to him being a psychopath. I think he should be in leg-chains, and digging holes somewhere right now. And if he tries to tell the guards what he thinks about foreigners they should say "<deleted> & keep digging."

So in essence Yunla whatever Brevik says about Islam in his trial (or any one else world wide ) for that matter it should be completely disregarded out of hand as ultra right wing fascism .

Quite the opposite. It gives the world an insight into how people are indoctrinated and motivated by rabid websites and blogs and Brievik is a classic example of "they that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind". Tex Watson rides again (to continue the Helter Skelter/Manson theme).

Quite how this whirlwind plays out will be interesting.

[Colin Yai]

IMO internet and other media are the forum to discuss these subjects in a logical way, its healthy to discuss social issues. However I don't think Breiviks actions are related to the actual phenomena of immigration or islam despite what he says, his actions are related to him being a psychopath. I think he should be in leg-chains, and digging holes somewhere right now. And if he tries to tell the guards what he thinks about foreigners they should say "<deleted> & keep digging."

Yunla I am all for discussing any subject in a "logical way " problem is here as soon as I discuss my concerns about the inexorable rise of Radical Islam in Europe I am shouted down as a rabid racist fascist without any further discussion on the subject !!. and am quoted names like Pamela Geller ,Robert Spencer and Gert Wilders as some sort of right wing loonies who have wrote books on their fears of Muslim domination , maybe you could quote me a book written by a Westerner who says its exaggerated out of all proportion and European Country's have Nothing to fear .

[Scott]

Some posters are well on their way toward getting a very long suspension if the continued Islamophobia and Islam-bashing continues.

This is a discussion forum. It is not a platform for ranting, whether done directly or subtly. A few people are turning this into an Andre Breivik appreciation thread. I find that as offensive as some of you find the left wing nutters you so frequently refer to.