Gay film is tremendously important, and most gay men I have met in any number of countries have an interest in it one way or another. It is an important way of demonstrating, celebrating, and discussing difference and identity among ourselves and side-by-side with straights. ....

Again, different experience (which can only be a good thing, otherwise how boring the world would be!). I can't recall ever having demonstrated, celebrated or discussed difference and identity with gays or straights, anywhere - it would be a bit like discussing, etc, why some of us had red hair or shaved twice a day. Nothing wrong with it, but it just isn't that important for some gays.

Gay film is tremendously important, and most gay men I have met in any number of countries have an interest in it one way or another. It is an important way of demonstrating, celebrating, and discussing difference and identity among ourselves and side-by-side with straights. ....

Again, different experience (which can only be a good thing, otherwise how boring the world would be!). I can't recall ever having demonstrated, celebrated or discussed difference and identity with gays or straights, anywhere - it would be a bit like discussing, etc, why some of us had red hair or shaved twice a day. Nothing wrong with it, but it just isn't that important for some gays.

I am sure there is a place for a gay character like you in the world of gay themed cinema.

Gay film is tremendously important, and most gay men I have met in any number of countries have an interest in it one way or another. It is an important way of demonstrating, celebrating, and discussing difference and identity among ourselves and side-by-side with straights. ....

Again, different experience (which can only be a good thing, otherwise how boring the world would be!). I can't recall ever having demonstrated, celebrated or discussed difference and identity with gays or straights, anywhere - it would be a bit like discussing, etc, why some of us had red hair or shaved twice a day. Nothing wrong with it, but it just isn't that important for some gays.

Which is, of course, the reason you spend so much time posting in the Gay Subforum when there's a whole, non-sexuality-differentiated forum out there- you're just not that interested in gayness per se, especially not the legal or historical or cultural aspects that you have never commented on here, especially not at length or making attempts to refer to sources like Foucault. LCV: the boy next door who's never had a discussion about gay identity.

Well, JT, I am not particularly involved on either 'side' of political support re. the whole Israeli thing because I refuse to look at it as a one-sided issue. I've had friends on both sides of the divide, though not terribly militantly. What my questions to you are about is how you feel about boycotts of cultural items in general for political reasons, and the responses I seem to be getting are 'it depends'. That's not surprising, and I'm not saying you're wrong or even that I'm different- but in that case you are going to run into these things. I'd say you make a strong case for this being an inappropriate venue for the kinds of things that are being protested, but it would really depend, wouldn't it, on how strongly you felt about those things being protested? So I can agree that it may be disgusting for you in particular, and the boycott seems to be stretching a political point, from my vantage point, and others may see it as absolutely necessary. The common point of agreement, I think, would be that the problems being protested (no matter to what extent true or to what extent important) seem to have little to do with the venue of protest. Otherwise it's back to a 'whodidwhatandhowbadtowhomwhenhowmanytimes' grind the same as what eats up bandwidth on similar political forums all over the net, which is not what we're going to do here.

I'm annoyed at your implication that you think I think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one sided. Where did you get that silly idea? Just because I support Frameline's right to show films from ALL nations? Egads. Its like you're implying that I support all Israeli policies or don't understand the motivations for the protests or the validity of Palestinian grievance. Duh. No. I would be against boycott of gay themed films from any country for any reason. If I was as mindlessly partisan as you suggest, I would be against gay themed Palestinian films being shown because of the terror supporting, anti-gay government in Gaza. Hardly. I WISH there were some gay themed Palestinian films to see. Palestinians are ... HOT. OK, that's flip but you get the idea. Bring on the Palestinian Gay Film Festival!

BTW, the thing with pinkwashing. You continue to seem to push to generalize this very valid discussion which does relate to gays and Israel. There is no other example in the world that you can possibly point to where the charge of pinkwashing is being thrown, except for Israel. Pinkwashing is about the life quality of gays in Israel being good and the accusation that the Israel government uses that for positive propaganda. I think the charge is true. Wouldn't ANY government use whatever is positive about it for PR reasons? What do these protesters want, Israel to crack down on their gays so they won't use pinkwashing?

Edited April 23, 201214 yr by Jingthing

If my description of my own position offends you through your own assumptions, I'm afraid it's entirely your problem. You were not referred to in that context, and I'm not interested in the argument.

If my description of my own position offends you through your own assumptions, I'm afraid it's entirely your problem. You were not referred to in that context, and I'm not interested in the argument.

OK, then, I apologize because I clearly took what you wrote the wrong way.

In any case, I am more clear now that this issue of pinkwashing is at the core of this controversy. Here's an interesting take on it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/23/opinion/pinkwashing-and-israels-use-of-gays-as-a-messaging-tool.html

What makes lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people and their allies so susceptible to pinkwashing — and its corollary, the tendency among some white gay people to privilege their racial and religious identity, a phenomenon the theorist Jasbir K. Puar has called “homonationalism” — is the emotional legacy of homophobia. Most gay people have experienced oppression in profound ways — in the family; in distorted representations in popular culture; in systematic legal inequality that has only just begun to relent. Increasing gay rights have caused some people of good will to mistakenly judge how advanced a country is by how it responds to homosexuality.

Some good observations but still not a justification to boycott gay themed films from a film festival. Like I said before, the protesters should have done a protest to raise awareness of pinkwashing and forget censorship of free expression in art.

Edited April 23, 201214 yr by Jingthing

Gay film is tremendously important, and most gay men I have met in any number of countries have an interest in it one way or another. It is an important way of demonstrating, celebrating, and discussing difference and identity among ourselves and side-by-side with straights. ....

Again, different experience (which can only be a good thing, otherwise how boring the world would be!). I can't recall ever having demonstrated, celebrated or discussed difference and identity with gays or straights, anywhere - it would be a bit like discussing, etc, why some of us had red hair or shaved twice a day. Nothing wrong with it, but it just isn't that important for some gays.

Which is, of course, the reason you spend so much time posting in the Gay Subforum when there's a whole, non-sexuality-differentiated forum out there- you're just not that interested in gayness per se, especially not the legal or historical or cultural aspects that you have never commented on here, especially not at length or making attempts to refer to sources like Foucault. LCV: the boy next door who's never had a discussion about gay identity.

"so much time"? A paltry 575 posts on TV, roughly one a day, compared to JT's 31,857 or your own 11,895 , including posts in such "non-sexuality differentiated" sub-forums as Plants, Pets and Vets, the Motor Forum, Bikes in Thailand, etc! .... and if I wasn't clear I was referring to discussions I have had with "people I have met" in real life rather than on an internet forum designed for the purpose. ...Foucault? He was a correspondent in Iran, which is an area of particular interest to me.

... and please, IJWT, I have never claimed to be "the boy next door", which has certain connotations (particularly in a thread about gay themed films, with one of the same name being about a male prostitute) and it is something I have never referred to or made claim to be - I would not misrepresent anyone else in such a way, whatever our differences, so I wonder if you will grant me the same courtesy?.

Hee hee hee- my comment, LCV, was literally made to be denied, so I will cheerfully deny its truth.

Hee hee hee- my comment, LCV, was literally made to be denied, so I will cheerfully deny its truth.

Glad I made you laugh, at last, IJWT!

...and it was quite a coincidence that, genuinely, the gay movie The Boy Next Door was actually about a male prostitute and "the boy next door who's never had a discussion about gay identity" - not that I'd know anything about gay movies, of course.

OK, so I caught Home, the Thai movie.

I would recommend it. Its rather more of a sophisticated, semi-hiso oriented Thai movies. No slapstick humor, etc. You can't really call it a gay themed movie and it would never make the cut at an international film festival in that regard. There is kind of a gay (emotional, nothing sexual) element to it and it was certainly enjoyable to watch. However, in a weird way it reminded me of how gay subjects would have been dealt with in the 1950's in the west. I don't want to give away too much of the plot or ending so I won't expand on that, at least yet.

Well, I voted No, because I think we have problems enough without interfering in another country's politics. A Film Festival should be a Film Festival, not a political platform.

Same here. I am totally against politicizing any arts or sports events.

Are gay films good? Well, I enjoy them but I won't say I represent any majority. At the end of the day, each film must at least bring in the cost, and as long as that happens, films (of any genre) will be made. For those who don't like them, well, then just don't watch or discuss them.

Just my 2 cents.

Well, I voted No, because I think we have problems enough without interfering in another country's politics. A Film Festival should be a Film Festival, not a political platform.

Same here. I am totally against politicizing any arts or sports events.

Would you have had the same opinion regarding the South African sports boycot in the Eighties tombkk?

Frameline would have enthusiastically welcomed a gay themed movie from South Africa during that time.

Edited April 29, 201214 yr by Jingthing

Well, I voted No, because I think we have problems enough without interfering in another country's politics. A Film Festival should be a Film Festival, not a political platform.

Same here. I am totally against politicizing any arts or sports events.

Would you have had the same opinion regarding the South African sports boycot in the Eighties tombkk?

Of course. And I did. Germany boycotted the Olympic Games 1980 in Moscow - I think that was wrong.

But then, there may be more of a discussion about sports events than about a gay film festival: These films are made by independent filmmakers who should not be punished by the world because their country's government does something other people don't like. Sports is another discussion (and therefore off-topic here) because it often requires government support.

So, let's discuss gay films here, you are free to open another topic about sports.

Here is a perfect example of the type of gay themed Israeli film you would never want ignorantly boycotted by Frameline or indeed by anyone. Although it was made in 2006, the themes are still (sadly) very fresh:

'The Bubble'

http://www.sfgate.co...7/DDMVRVMB6.DTL

Edited May 1, 201214 yr by Jingthing

Well, tombkk, at least you are consistent.

However, by the late eighties such an opinion would be very out of step with general opinion in North America or Europe. The boycott of SA was nearly universal at that stage.

The more general point is that while many people may complain that proposed boycotts "drag sport" (or film,or whatever) into the political arena, the fact is most people are all in favour of boycotts when it is THEIR cause.

This can have a slightly comical effect, as in the eighties where the strongest voices in the USA in favour of a boycott of the 1980 Moscow Olympics (conservative Republicans) , suddenly got all concerned about "mixing politics and sport" when sports boycotts of South Africa became an issue in the early eighties.

And to get back to the SF Film Festival in particular, although I am personally rather leery of boycotts in general (particulary when it effects individual film-makers who may have divergent opinions on the Palestinian occupation), in fairness to this boycott, it is obviously directly related to the government funding of the festival by Israel.

Here is a quote from the website of the group calling for the boycott:

"By continuing to accept money from the Israeli consulate, Frameline is participating in the re-brand Israel campaign, and is helping it pinkwash its negative image, its grave violations of international law, human rights, and crimes against the Palestinian people. By accepting the Consulate’s money, Frameline is actively helping to create a false positive image of Israel as a queer-friendly “democracy,” turning people’s attention from occupation and apartheid."

I will not include a link to the above as I think TV does not like links, but if you throw a bit of it into Google you will bring up the page.

They also explicitly claim that individual Israeli artists and their work are not targeted by the call to boycott.

Actually, now that i have read a few of websites on the issue, (I had never heard of the festival or boycott before) it is obvious that the whole nub of the issue for most of those supporting the boycott is about the Israeli consulate providing FUNDING to the Festival.

Looking back at Jingthing's original post, the fact the he didn't mention that AT ALL that the issue of funding was the basis for the controversy meant that the whole thread started out from completely biased premise (in that it was seen as a boycott of Israeli film pure and simple, rather than opposition to the Israeli funding of the organisation).

Not a good show, Jingthing, not a good show at all.

Edited May 3, 201214 yr by RonanTheBarbarian

Look at the link I posted in the OP. The issue of the funding is all there.

Frameline is a special event. A film FESTIVAL, not just a screening on your home computer.

Frameline (and many film festivals) openly seek support from a wide variety of entities and government consulates. It so happens the Israeli consulate was involved in bringing the director of "Bubble" and others to San Francisco. Again, look at what Bubble was actually about. It's a film everyone should see and a director everyone should hear from, in person, even better. So the consulate helped doing this good thing? So what? You would like it better if the Israeli films couldn't send their people to festivals? The U.S.A. and a number of countries labels Hamas a terror organization (the government of Gaza). Would the same people who are dissing Frameline support an objection of Hamas funding of Gazan gay filmmakers to come to San Francisco?

I just looked at some links also from the boycott promoters. I see they mention they don't wish to target specific artists but that they DO wish to stop so called pinkwashing, which again, clearly, is what I have identified as the heart of this controversy. The director of Bubble has been accused of pinkwashing by these boycotters. So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to make the connection there.

Edited May 3, 201214 yr by Jingthing

BTW, in addition to the issue of labeling gay themed Israeli films as pinkwashing, the activists against Frameline were actually calling for an even greater boycott of the entire festival! They propose that no films at all be shown as long as there is any Israeli government money in the festival.

We ask filmmakers, whether or not they are submitting to this year's festival, to support the struggle

for peace and justice by letting Frameline's directors know they cannot allow their films to be shown at an event with Israelisponsorship.

http://www.scribd.co...l-and-Frameline

Edited May 3, 201214 yr by Jingthing

Film festivals should not boycott entire countries gay or otherwise ....... It's like asking in the 50's if Freedom film festivals should boycott Russian films on freedom .... the answer is obviously NO ..... because it's censorship

The core of this film festival controversy was about so called pinkwashing. OK, I think pinkwashing is a real thing and the Israeli government finds it a useful tactic, and will continue to be interested in using it. In the case of films and cultural products, they can represent more than one thing, and do. Just the film, maybe what the film says about a country, etc. However, this story tells us just how absurdly far this anti-pinkwashing campaign can and does go:

Could one imagine a group of American liberals boycotting a group of gay Zimbabweans or Iranians - people who reside in countries whose leaders, respectively, call homosexuals "worse than dogs and pigs" and hang them from construction cranes? Boycotting individuals because of the actions of their government, over which they have no control and that they may very well oppose, is absurd. Boycotting Israeli gay teenagers because of the occupation is akin to boycotting a group of Czech beer brewers because of their nation's abysmal treatment of its Roma minority, or a French opera company because of the dismal state of the banlieues. And selectively boycotting Israelis - whether they be artists, professors or gay teenagers - is nothing short of anti-Semitic.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-fallacy-of-the-pinkwashing-argument-1.422951

Mr. Kirchick, the author of the above article (as well as being member of a neo-con lobbying organisation)claims:

"Could one imagine a group of American liberals boycotting a group of gay Zimbabweans or Iranians...".

As the boycotting stems from the alleged pinkwashing, the above example would only make sense if the Iranian or Zimbabwean government were sponsoring gay arts events in the USA to try and improve the image of their government.

Is this likely, does anybody think?

And in the vanishingly unlikely event that the Iranian government sponsored gay arts events in the US, you can be pretty dam_n sure that pro-Israel groups would kick up a stink about it, I can assure you.

Edited May 26, 201214 yr by RonanTheBarbarian

...

And in the vanishingly unlikely event that the Iranian government sponsored gay arts events in the US, you can be pretty dam_n sure that pro-Israel groups would kick up a stink about it, I can assure you.

No, they wouldn't, because an Iran like that wouldn't be the same Iran we have now.

Aside from that, Iranian films have been shown in the USA for many decades, through different regimes. I dare you to find even one incident where pro-Israeli groups in the US have attempted to nix the showing of these films. Don't you think the Iranian government sees propaganda benefit when their films win awards in America, as one recently did? (A very good film, BTW.) Of course they do and again, you won't hear one peep of protest from "pro-Israeli" groups in the USA about that.

How anyone can possibly defend what happened to this teenage gay group from Israel is really beyond my imagination.

Edited May 26, 201214 yr by Jingthing

Jingthing, again you are obscuring the fact that the target of the SF boycott is the financing coming from the PR arm of the Israeli Foreign Ministry.

Can you name one reputable Arts organisation in the USA that has accepted Iranian funding recently?

Because unless you can (and I accept that it is unlikely that the current Iranian regime would be going around looking for Arts festivals to sponsor), you are not making like for like comparisons.

I see. So bottom line based on your response, I reckon you agree with me that the way the gay teens were treated in Seattle was despicable. As far as your other example, it's you that set the test of exact like for like. Not me. Israel and the USA are the closest of friends. Iran and the USA don't even have diplomatic relations! There are plenty of Iranian Americans and they do very well there (but of course most of them are anti- Iranian regime). Look, if you bothered to reed this thread, there was a link in the OP about the funding issue, and I personally agree that a pinkwashing tactic does exist. It is a legitimate area of controversy, but I just can't get behind censorship of arts, and I know for a fact that MANY foreign governments help fund cultural events and film sharing in MANY countries, in the U.S. and Thailand.

To be clear, I have a lot of disagreement with many policies of the Israeli government, but it stops at demonizing the Israeli people as a whole, their artists, their filmmakers, their academics (who are most liberal politically), their scientists, their novelists, their musicians, etc. And especially their GAY YOUTH who guess what, don't live in a gay utopia.

Also, in case it wasn't clear, YES Frameline should take any money it can from any government to help bring in the artists live to the festivals. Running film festivals is very expensive and if the directors and actors aren't there to speak, hear the applause or hisses (San Franciscan audiences tend to hiss when they are displeased) and answer questions, it's just another movie screening! If they've selected an Israeli film, they select it because it belongs in the festival, just like any other selection.

Edited May 26, 201214 yr by Jingthing

Jingthing, as regard the Israeli teenagers, i am not defending what happened to them (as I said before, I think boycotts that affect israeli individuals are counter-productive), however there are many individual tragedies in the Israeli Palestinian situation.At least the teenagers only faced a one-day setback, which I am sure they will recover from.

The New York Times had an Op-Ed just this week from an Israeli Arab who is married to a woman from the West bank. They met in the United States, but cannot go back to live in his hometown in Israel because she wouuld be barred from living with him, simply because she was born in the West Bank.

This situation may continue for the rest of their lives.

You can read the story here:

http://www.nytimes.c...-are-equal.html

If the link is blocked here on TV, you can get to it by Googling "Not All israeli Citizens are Equal Yousef Munayyer"

I hope you will join me, Jingthing, in stating that the way the Israeli government is treating the Munayyer family is despicable.

Edited May 26, 201214 yr by RonanTheBarbarian

You're going way off topic, dude. This is the gay forum here. Tie it to the gay angle somehow, or don't go there. I picked up you want to move this thread into a general Israel/Palestinian conflict topic. That ain't gonna happen.

But I will respond this way on topic. If you're suggesting that being against boycotting Israeli cultural products and being OK with Frameline Gay Film festival taking money from ANY government, including Israel, to help fund the film festival translates into support for all Israeli government policies, that's completely wrong.

Edited May 26, 201214 yr by Jingthing

Well, Jingthing, to bring it back to the gay issue, what would be an acceptable way in your mind for opponents of "pinkwashing" to fight it?

Well, Jingthing, to bring it back to the gay issue, what would be an acceptable way in your mind for opponents of "pinkwashing" to fight it?

Speak about it. Informational pickets. I think its an awareness thing. I don't think the goal should be to suppress Israeli gay cultural products from international distribution. Those products exist for what they are. Their government may be using them for PR, so just let people know what the government is doing and to encourage people take that into account when enjoying the cultural events. Then intelligent people themselves can decide whether the creators themselves were producing propaganda. Generally, they were not! Don't punish the artists.

That is. If that's your thing. There are about 100 other governments in the world that do disgusting things. It's interesting that many leftist types are only interested in the bad things one country does -- Israel.

Edited May 26, 201214 yr by Jingthing