What Does "'greng Jai" Mean To You?

[siamesekitty]

Not necessarily. It's not uncommon for people to actually say "grengjai" to the person's face. It's a way of showing that though you appreciate the offer, you really don't want to incovenience him/her. (as in Totster's case, where the guy would actually have to go through the trouble of killing a pig just for him)

Edited December 29, 2005 by siamesekitty

[BambinA]

im greng jai to say ....siamesekitty ..u need only 6 posts then u can reach to bedlam!!!

ps..u look cute in a person!!

Edited December 29, 2005 by BambinA

[Patex]

Not necessarily. It's not uncommon for people to actually say "grengjai to the person's face. It actually shows that though you appreciate the offer, you really doesn't want to inconvenience him/her.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sk,

I know, but it isn't really "Grengchai"

Never mind, Patex

Edit: Just think about that poor Thai - in the early morning, after he drank himself sober with this delicious Black Label, he recognize 20 bottles premium Singha Beer and 2 1/2 empty bottles of the beloved Nam Dam... shocked about the waste of money, he offers a pig to the host, for not loosing face... in the hope the host will be generous again and find a nice excuse for not accept the offer... Replying "Greng chai" is a little above

Edited December 29, 2005 by Patex

[Tippaporn]

Not necessarily. It's not uncommon for people to actually say "grengjai to the person's face. It actually shows that though you appreciate the offer, you really doesn't want to inconvenience him/her.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sk,

I know, but it isn't really "Grengchai"

Never mind, Patex

Edit: Just think about that poor Thai - in the early morning, after he drank himself sober with this delicious Black Label, he recognize 20 bottles premium Singha Beer and 2 1/2 empty bottles of the beloved Nam Dam... shocked about the waste of money, he offers a pig to the host, for not loosing face... in the hope the host will be generous again and find a nice excuse for not accept the offer... Replying "Greng chai" is a little above

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this topic is quite interesting. The concept of greng jai has been explained to me by a Thai after my first trip here many years ago. Too much time has gone by to recall her explanation. Since I've been living here I haven't made it a point to learn the application of the concept, though I tend to be polite and respectful, even jolly in my interactions with khon Thai. And I always thank taxi drivers and any others who provide me with a service and my wife has never made mention of it.

From reading the above quotes I can see the logic of both SK and Patex. It seems that they could both be correct. So that leads me to a question. If the answer is "yes" then it will only serve to add to the confusion (maybe a khon Thai can answer this). Is it possible that the concept is practised differently even among the Thais? Maybe there is a more or less universal agreement as to the application in some obvious situations whereas in other situations there's more subtlety in it's application?

Also, and this may be a slight departure, my wife has told me that I say "sawatdee khrup" and wai way too much. Does that become mai greng jai at some point?

[Totster]

Not necessarily. It's not uncommon for people to actually say "grengjai to the person's face. It actually shows that though you appreciate the offer, you really doesn't want to inconvenience him/her.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sk,

I know, but it isn't really "Grengchai"

Never mind, Patex

I just double checked with my wife in case I made a mistake.. I didn't.. it's definately Greng Jai

Edit: Just think about that poor Thai - in the early morning, after he drank himself sober with this delicious Black Label, he recognize 20 bottles premium Singha Beer and 2 1/2 empty bottles of the beloved Nam Dam... shocked  about the waste of money, he offers a pig to the host, for not loosing face... in the hope the host will be generous again and find a nice excuse for not accept the offer... Replying "Greng chai" is a little above 

The point was Patex, that him killing a pig was too much trouble just for me, killing a pig warrants a better/larger occasion. It's not that i didn't want to go and eat with him, it was I didn't want him to go to so much trouble for me.

In the end, as I said previously we went to his house and ate some very tasty Gai Yaang for lunch, which he purchased in the local market.

now I know the expression I hear it many times, only yesterday in fact.. we were sat in the shop and someone came to buy some beer and snacks. The person saw her friend who was sat with us who had just come from BKK..the conversation went something like this..

person - bpai gin bia tee baan (go drink in house)

friend - bor bpai (no)

person - bpai.. layo layo (go ! quickly )

friend - bpai lort (No... you go [alone])

person - bpai (go!)

friend - greng jai self explanatory

It may not be totally accurate, I may have made mistakes.. but the sentiment is the same.

totster

[siamesekitty]

Khun totster khao jai tuuk tong ka

The word "grengjai" is rather difficult to explain, as I found out when I was in college. One of our computer classes required us to correspond with people from another university, and somehow I got to explaining the Thai trait of "grengjai". Turned rather nasty when the guy got offended and accused me of implying that only Thais are considerate people.

Anyway, examples of situation which can be described as "grengjai":

- not accepting someone's offer to do something for you, because you don't want to be a burden to them

- not asking for/accepting a loan from somebody even though you really really need it

- not wanting to wake somebody up while they're sleeping

- not allowing someone to pay for your meal/movie/etc.

- trying to refuse an obviously very expensive gift from someone

- not making a racket when someone has a pounding headache

- not being crude in front of your friends' girlfriends/wives (as opposed to your behaviour when it's just you and the boys)

- not wanting to call the waitress over to ask for ANOTHER bowl of sauce (as she's already brought more sauce 98 times already)

- the feeling that makes you give someone a gift in return for their previous hospitality

it's not really:

- saying "please" and "thank you"

- the act of wai-ing

- smiling or being pleasant in general

- helping somebody do something (unless you felt obliged from a previous action of theirs)

[Tippaporn]

Thanks for that SK. Especially the examples. But . . . is greng jai interpreted by all Thais the same, or are there differences in it's application?

[Ned]

Concepts like kreng jai or honesty are applied only when it suits. Being honest when it could lead to a problem is for idiots. Being kreng jai to someone who can't damage you is for wimps. If there's an advantage to lie (ie to be less than honest) then that's okay. If you want to build a pig pen five feet from someone else's kitchen , and that person's not in a position to do anything about it , then stuff kreng jai. Superficial, superficial, superficial. Bend like the bamboo mate! Kreng jai's a very excuse for not doing something though. ...Kreng jai khun.

[meadish_sweetball]

Thanks for that SK.  Especially the examples.  But . . . is greng jai interpreted by all Thais the same, or are there differences in it's application?

Come on, you should know the answer to that already. No two people interpret things exactly the same, and all Thais do not exhibit 'kreeng jai' even though I remember some TV commercial saying that 'if you are not kreeng jai, you are not Thai'.

My own observation is that it generally applies only in face to face situations, or where a relationship has already been established to some degree. Very rarely (in my limited experience) does it extend to complete strangers.

SK's explanation fits in with my own idea about kreeng jai to 90%.

However, the one about the waitress and the sauce only seems to apply if the waitress has *literally* brought the sauce 98 times (up until the 97th time it's fine to ask her for this or that without saying thanks or even noticing her, which from my own upbringing and values looks very inconsiderate).

Most of the Thais I know and have known unfortunately do not extend a great deal of greeng jai to service people, especially if the service people are younger than themselves. As always there are some exceptions though.

[Tippaporn]

Thanks for that SK.  Especially the examples.  But . . . is greng jai interpreted by all Thais the same, or are there differences in it's application?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Come on, you should know the answer to that already. No two people interpret things exactly the same, and all Thais do not exhibit 'kreeng jai' even though I remember some TV commercial saying that 'if you are not kreeng jai, you are not Thai'.

My own observation is that it generally applies only in face to face situations, or where a relationship has already been established to some degree. Very rarely (in my limited experience) does it extend to complete strangers.

SK's explanation fits in with my own idea about kreeng jai to 90%.

However, the one about the waitress and the sauce only seems to apply if the waitress has *literally* brought the sauce 98 times (up until the 97th time it's fine to ask her for this or that without saying thanks or even noticing her, which from my own upbringing and values looks very inconsiderate).

Most of the Thais I know and have known unfortunately do not extend a great deal of greeng jai to service people, especially if the service people are younger than themselves. As always there are some exceptions though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Meadish, for further explanation. I most certainly would assume that the application varies from individual to individual, yet I was wondering if there are situations where it is almost universally applied.

Again, I haven't paid much attention to the concept, though I don't seem to have any problems. If I could exercise it better then I would be willing to do that. Of course, I'd ultimately use my own judgement over mindlessly following any cultural protocol.

[DJ Pat]

Kreng Jai, quite frankly, is a pain in the arse.

[raro]

After reading all this intersting threat, the wife and me went to a large Moo Kata place in Bangkok. There was a teenage-birthday party going on and after a while some of the girls seized the Karaoke stage and did some earsplitting renditions of whatever-it-was. No, they did not really practice that at home before going public.

I asked the wife why do they not do some greng jai now and go back to their seats. The reply was: "...but they enjoy" (in fact, they did...). The greng jai part would be actually on my side.

So next time you hear my guitar blaring over Maprachan, hand out some greng jai to me as you can be damned sure I enjoy it!

[Sheryl]

To be greng jai is to be considerate or deferential - to act in such a manner as not to cause offence, loss of face, discomfort or embarassment to another person.

yes, that's the definition and contrary to what is often said, there is nothing at all hard for most Westerners to understand in the concept. Certainly being considerate has always been a strong value of mine and my family and friends.

It's in the application of the principle that the problems set in. One problem is that sometimes the Thai notion of what is considerate behavior often differs from what would strike us as considerate...just a cultural difference. (I dearly wish, for example, that it would extend to telephone calls in the middle of the night or break of dawn!) Another problem is that for Thais its application is heavily influenced by status, and the obligation to demonstrate appropriate recognition of people's status...so that what constitutes being considerate is different depending on who the other party is. Which to a western mind would mean that it's not consideration but a mixture of consideration and deference.

The last problem and the one that I must admit irritates me is that in actual practice Thais often use greng jai to explain/justify highly inconsiderate behavior that is meant to avoid discomfort for themselves only...e.g. not telling someone something they really need to know, and will suffer bad consequences for not knowing, because hearing it is likely to make them unhappy in the short run which will make the first party uncomfortable. We would define being considerate as forcing ourselves to deliver the bad news since it is in the other person's best interest even though it will make us uncomfortable. I find many Thais do not. There are other examples as well but the same basic idea...calling it " greng jai" when it is really " protecting myself at the other person's expense". Happens a lot.

(I love Thailand & its people, don't misunderstand. But one of the advantages of this forum is that it lets us get things like this off our chests without offending as we would certainly do if saying it to a Thai!)

[raro]

The last problem and the one that I must admit irritates me is that in actual practice Thais often use greng jai to explain/justify highly inconsiderate behavior that is meant to avoid discomfort for themselves only...e.g. not telling someone something they really need to know, and will suffer bad consequences for not knowing, because hearing it is likely to make them unhappy in the short run which will make the first party uncomfortable. We would define being considerate as forcing ourselves to deliver the bad news since it is in the other person's best interest even though it will make us uncomfortable. I find many Thais do not. There are other examples as well but the same basic idea...calling it " greng jai" when it is really " protecting myself at the other person's expense". Happens a lot.

(I love Thailand & its people, don't misunderstand. But one of the advantages of this forum is that it lets us get things like this off our chests without offending as we would certainly do if saying it to a Thai!)

Right on! I also had more than often the impression that Thais use Greng Jai as an excuse for avoiding discomfort for themselves rather than the other person, thus turning this noble principle as absurdum.

[jomama]

I agree that it is often used as a means of avoiding many things...such as honest discussion.

Also the literal translation is interesting: "Fearful heart."

I much prefer the concept of nam jai, which is difficult to translate, but means honest compassion and consideration of other people; to be helpful.

[raro]

I much prefer the concept of nam jai, which is difficult to translate, but means honest compassion and consideration of other people; to be helpful.

Equally interesting! Can we elaborate on that one a little more? Some examples?

[steveromagnino]

I much prefer the concept of nam jai, which is difficult to translate, but means honest compassion and consideration of other people; to be helpful.

Equally interesting! Can we elaborate on that one a little more? Some examples?

To me, num jai is to have generosity or consideration. e.g. to see a driver trying to pull out and let them in even though they are in the wrong lane; to help out a work colleague after hours to get their work done etc.

Greng jai is often misunderstood because sometime it is used as an excuse for laziness, not doing things etc. And often it is the use of this that makes people mistakenly understand that greng jai is a bad thing. It is not; without greng jai it would be hard for a lot of people to live in close proximity without problems. Japanese understand greng jai from what I understand, even though no doubt they have some other word for it.

To me, the easiest way to understand greng jai is to understand that it is change in our own actions that we would otherwise not have done, in order to consider or take into account the well being of someone else in a way which may be of increased inconvenience to ourselves, with or without the other person's knowledge.

e.g. I see my friend is hungry, and even though I want to stay at the nightclub listening to DJ Pat's delightful 80s house mix, I claim I am tired and we should eat, so that he will be happy to leave and get something to eat; knowing that if I don't say anything, he also won't say anything and he will remain hungry.

e.g. My boss invites me to dinner at his house, but I am worried I will not be able to converse comfortably with all his other friends, and am aware that will make him need to look after me. I therefore claim I am not free for dinner, and thus provide an excuse to get out of the dinner even though in my heart I would like to eat the free flow caviar and lobster thermadore that he apparently serves for appetisers.

e.g. Other staff in the office are all working really hard and haven't gone for lunch yet. I am not busy, and normally eat at my desk. However, today I eat out so that I don't make them feel worse that they are working and I am not.

e.g. my friends from when I studied Cambodian language in Siam Reap invite me for dinner, and even though I am very tired and don't really want to go, I worry they won't enjoy themselves and think I am a snob since I got my new promotion working as drivethru specialist at KFC so I reply 'chok jeea grok kinnear' and go meet them for the hi so dinner at that pretentious restaurant Koi

None of these are exclusive to Thai people; in fact many western people are extremely greng jai while many Thai people are not at all. However, in terms of language, I'd say one language has a word for it, and the other does not. And if pushed, I'd say in general, western cultures focus on the individual more than the group; this is reflected in academic literature like the collectivism quadrant of Hofstede in the cross cultural comparison research in the workplace (where H measured the importance of the the group vs. individual) and also in the way people think - in fact there is some book review in The nation today about this very subject. The more focus on the group, the more time is spent worrying about keeping everything harmonious; hence why greng jai is so important. If really pushed, I'd say the people I have met from New York seem to be least aware of what anyone around them might be thinking or feeling and when we look at how successful the individual is there, perhaps they are super high on the individual stakes, and thus have less need for 'greng jai'.

[jomama]

I heartily (no pun intended) agree with steveromagnino about greng jai.

I think the key phrase is "to keep harmonious relationships."

It is polite and important for everyone to understand where they lie in the social strata; that they get their due immediate respect; that they have a comfort zone when dealing with each other; that lower strata people feel comfortable (and know how) when dealing with the higher-ups by exhibiting the formal signs of greng jai.

One can see it in the terms used: nong for younger; phee for older; luang (uncle) for an old male not really related to you, etc. It's superficial respect so everyone stays comfortable.

Nam jai, or the other hand, could be likened to "Christian kidness" in farang culture, in which people will be kind to strangers because it's the right thing to do, not because you have to kiss someone's ass to make them comfortable. (And before you flame me I'm no missionary).

Like the U.S Spreme Court's ruling of pornograpahy -- "We can't define it, but we know it when we see it" -- nam jai is hard to define, but the Thais showed it well during the tsunami, with poor village people giving nearly naked farangs their sandals while the Thais walked barefoot. That was done out of the genuine kindness of their heart.