Books About Thailand

[OldAsiaHand]

I disagree with a point of view you expressed and your response is this kind of bitchy garbage?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You went beyond disagreeing with my point of view about his writing quality, and proceeded to assasinate the author's character ("self-promoting", "idiot", faking nomination, etc.). Following that, you then continued on by attacking my motives and character. I can take it, but you kill the discussion in your misguided efforts.

Unable to separate the point of discussion from personality issues.

Over the top.

Illogical.

Sad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said. And we still don't know which books OldAsiaHand read [if any].

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

***senseless insults deleted*** Do you really think you can demand anyone who disagrees with you prove his bona fides to your personal satisfaction?

I made one effort to go down that road in the spirit of good will and honest conversation and what response did I get? "I don't believe you."

I suppose now you want....what? Notarized affidavits? ***more senseless flaming erased***

[bannork]

One of the threads a couple of months ago started with a discussion about the books written by Pira Sudham and Old Asia Hand tore into them in a vitriolic fashion then.

I don't know Pira Sudham, and sometimes it's better not to know an artist or musician for their character may affect your opinion of their writing; but his early books about growing up in Issan are evocative of village life, the pace described as dull By OAH may be atmospheric to others.

I wonder if OAH has ever been burnt by a lady from 'the weeping plains' or nearby?

[OldAsiaHand]

One of the threads a couple of months ago started with a discussion about the books written by Pira Sudham and Old Asia Hand tore into them in a vitriolic fashion then.

I don't know Pira Sudham, and sometimes it's better not to know an artist or musician for their character may affect your opinion of their writing; but his early books about growing up in Issan are evocative of village life, the pace described as dull By OAH may be atmospheric to others.

I wonder if OAH has ever been burnt by a lady from 'the weeping plains' or nearby?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope. I just think he's a lousy, boring writer who doesn't deserve his overblown repurtation, and thanks for pointing out my consistency on the subject.

If I have sounded 'vitriolic' in any of my comments, it was probably motivated by my contempt for the Nobel Prize garbage that Sudham has been peddling through the years to a certain sort of eagerly gullible, more-Thai-than-thou foreigner. To find two gold-plated examples of the species, just read back over this thread.

[The Muji]

"Asia Hand" and others by Christopher Moore - very entertaining read, well written, suspenseful and with plenty of BKK and Thailand insiders

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Christopher Moore's books are many things but they are definitely not well written.I sat next to him a few years ago at an Oxford and Cambridge dinner in Bangkok where he seemed very out of place.He didn't seem to know anyone and anyway nobody would have been interested in his deriviative and tedious bargirl/detective tripe.He's one of those writers like Stephen Leather that is much admired by the ignorant.He's good looking though I must admit!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, despite all the bitchiness and back-biting seen on this thread (why?), as someone planning a move to LOS, I for one have gained some very useful information and look forward to researching further many of the titles suggested.

The very fact that at something like an Oxford and Cambridge dinner, which incidentally, sounds dreadful, where an author seemed "very out of place" and "not knowing anyone" will have no bearing on whether I choose to read his books, or not (oops, have I just been bitchy?)!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree my little anecdote has no bearing on what one might want to read.And you are quite right -the dinner was a dreadful occasion.However the deriviative and painfully laboured prose of the comically named "Hemingway of Thailand"may well put you off.I don't think this thread is bitchy but you might well have picked up on a certain irritation at certain hacks being wildly over praised.There will of course always be those who enjoy trash and label anything else as "pseudo intellectual".Best advice is to read for yourself and make up your own mind.There are some excellent recommendations in this thread, eg "Siam Mapped".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's with the personal attacks? You just labelled everyone who enjoys reading Chris Moore as ignorant. Please get off your high horse and realize that many educated people choose to read certain books for entertainment (as I said before). You obviously only read Hemingway, others read Moore and Hemingway and know well to distinguish between the two.

[Cassandra]

"Asia Hand" and others by Christopher Moore - very entertaining read, well written, suspenseful and with plenty of BKK and Thailand insiders

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Christopher Moore's books are many things but they are definitely not well written.I sat next to him a few years ago at an Oxford and Cambridge dinner in Bangkok where he seemed very out of place.He didn't seem to know anyone and anyway nobody would have been interested in his deriviative and tedious bargirl/detective tripe.He's one of those writers like Stephen Leather that is much admired by the ignorant.He's good looking though I must admit!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, despite all the bitchiness and back-biting seen on this thread (why?), as someone planning a move to LOS, I for one have gained some very useful information and look forward to researching further many of the titles suggested.

The very fact that at something like an Oxford and Cambridge dinner, which incidentally, sounds dreadful, where an author seemed "very out of place" and "not knowing anyone" will have no bearing on whether I choose to read his books, or not (oops, have I just been bitchy?)!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree my little anecdote has no bearing on what one might want to read.And you are quite right -the dinner was a dreadful occasion.However the deriviative and painfully laboured prose of the comically named "Hemingway of Thailand"may well put you off.I don't think this thread is bitchy but you might well have picked up on a certain irritation at certain hacks being wildly over praised.There will of course always be those who enjoy trash and label anything else as "pseudo intellectual".Best advice is to read for yourself and make up your own mind.There are some excellent recommendations in this thread, eg "Siam Mapped".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's with the personal attacks? You just labelled everyone who enjoys reading Chris Moore as ignorant. Please get off your high horse and realize that many educated people choose to read certain books for entertainment (as I said before). You obviously only read Hemingway, others read Moore and Hemingway and know well to distinguish between the two.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think I suggested anyone who read Christopher Moore's books to be ignorant.I've read a couple myself.The trouble is he's just a bit clunky and laboured, but absolutely no problem for a beach or aeroplane read.He's a lot better than the trashy Stephen Leathers but will only have sold a fraction of the latter's output.Why should I have read only Hemingway?

[toptuan]

I'm so impressed to see how emotional we all get about our literary tastes. Personal attacks, threats, name-calling! No dull discussion here!

[The Muji]

Quoting from your post:

"He's one of those writers like Stephen Leather that is much admired by the ignorant."

"There will of course always be those who enjoy trash and label anything else as "pseudo intellectual""

Your posts are somewhat judgemental. I'm trying to point out to you that there is a gray area. To give an example, my Dad has a Masters Degree in French literature from a respected European University, but when he comes to Thailand to travel with me, he loves reading Christopher Moore. You can appreciate world class literature without having to put down authors like Moore and the people that enjoy their books.

[toptuan]

"I made one effort to go down that road in the spirit of good will..."  [VIOLINS, PLEASE] 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

VS.

"...self-promoting, no-talent idiot....has been peddling...you actually fell for it?...somehow makes you morally superior to everyone else..."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OAH, at least you're entertaining!

Edited January 3, 2006 by toptuan

[gburns57au]

Firstly, Private Dancer wasn't turned down by local publishers. They would have jumped at the chance to publish a well-known, international author no matter what the book was about.

Leather tried to get the international company that publishes his action/adventure novels to publish it, but they felt that it would confuse his fans because it is so different from his normal style. They are the ones who turned it down, and Leather put it on the internet rather than put it out with a local company.

Try again.....Many best selling international authors change their style and still get published...That was not the reason why it could not get published.

You have every right to your opinion about this book - however off-base it seems to me - but insulting the intelligence of those that disagree with you, is naturally going to cause some bad feelings.

Where did I insult anyones intelligence???

I, and everyone else that I've ever met who knows about the nightlfe scene here, feel that it is quite accurate in its portrayal of much of Thailand's farang-oriented sex industry. I know a lot of people who are habitual readers - on all different subjects - and people who barely ever read, and most of them couldn't put it down, once they had started reading it. To me, that is a book worth reading.

There are a lot of hookers-with-a-heart-of-gold out there, and I have met a lot of them, however, I have lived here a long time, speak Thai fairly well - and most importantly - don't fall in love with them. If I did, I think that Leather's portrayal of them would seem even more spot on.

If you believe that the book is an accurate protrayal of all bar girls, then I feel sorry for you especially as you have lived there a long time. The reality of the average bar girl is a lot different to how it is portayed in the book. Sure they are girls like that, but it is not a true representation of the average girl. Unfortunately people who read this book without prior knowledge of Thailands nightlife perceive this to be how all the girls are, which is simply not true. I will say that it was a brave attempt to try and show both sides of a situation, but unfortunately he let the stereotypical viewpoint of jaded and disillusioned farangs get in the way of a potentially good story.

For the record, I am not a fan of Stephen Leather's action books or Christpher Moore's novels. They are just not my cup of tea, however, they are not something that I am interested in or entertained by. I don't feel that anyone who likes them, is a blithering idiot. In fact, it is obvious that many of their fans are very intelligent from the great posts that they have written here. 

Now where did I call anyone a "blithering idiot"??? along with your earlier comment, it would appear that you are trying to evoke some sort of response, unfortunately that wont work, I will debate the issue without resorting to insults. Please do not try to put words in my posts that are not there.

[Ollie]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if anyone started a book club out there (LOS), that perhaps had weekly or monthly meetings - then again, I'm not sure that anyone would actually survive the first one!!!

Phew, what a palaver!

Anyway, keep it up, its good fun for bystanders and my reading list is getting longer and longer.

[Ulysses G.]

Try again.....Many best selling international authors change their style and still get published...That was not the reason why it could not get published.

How do you know?

Stephen Leather said that was the reason on his web site. Is he a liar as well as a "bad" writer?

Where did I insult anyones intelligence???

gburns57au,2006-01-01 23:43:33]

Why doesnt it surprise me that you endorse a piece of crap like Leathers book.

Was this meant as a complement?

If you believe that the book is an accurate protrayal of all bar girls, then I feel sorry for you especially as you have lived there a long time. The reality of the average bar girl is a lot different to how it is portayed in the book. Sure they are girls like that, but it is not a true representation of the average girl. Unfortunately people who read this book without prior knowledge of Thailands nightlife perceive this to be how all the girls are, which is simply not true. I will say that it was a brave attempt to try and show both sides of a situation, but unfortunately he let the stereotypical viewpoint of jaded and disillusioned farangs get in the way of a potentially good story.

I don't agree with you, and either do a lot of other people who know a lot about the bar scene here.

Now where did I call anyone a "blithering idiot"??? along with your earlier comment, it would appear that you are trying to evoke some sort of response, unfortunately that wont work, I will debate the issue without resorting to insults. Please do not try to put words in my posts that are not there.

gburns57au,2006-01-01 23:43:33]

Why doesnt it surprise me that you endorse a piece of crap like Leathers book.

This is a rather nasty insult in my book, but remember that some of my comments were also directed at Casandra who certainly deserved them even more than you.

Edited January 3, 2006 by Ulysses G.

[OldAsiaHand]

If anyone is interested, I've started a new thread about why book threads always seem to turn out like this one.

I'd be interest tol hear what you think.......

Edited January 3, 2006 by OldAsiaHand

[gburns57au]

gburns57au,2006-01-03 17:30:32]

Ulysses G.,2006-01-03 10:42:34]Firstly, Private Dancer wasn't turned down by local publishers. They would have jumped at the chance to publish a well-known, international author no matter what the book was about.

Leather tried to get the international company that publishes his action/adventure novels to publish it, but they felt that it would confuse his fans because it is so different from his normal style. They are the ones who turned it down, and Leather put it on the internet rather than put it out with a local company.

Try again.....Many best selling international authors change their style and still get published...That was not the reason why it could not get published.

How do you know?

Stephen Leather said that was the reason on his web site. Is he a liar as well as a "bad" writer?

You have every right to your opinion about this book - however off-base it seems to me - but insulting the intelligence of those that disagree with you, is naturally going to cause some bad feelings.

Where did I insult anyones intelligence???

gburns57au,2006-01-01 23:43:33]

Why doesnt it surprise me that you endorse a piece of crap like Leathers book.

Was this meant as a complement?

I, and everyone else that I've ever met who knows about the nightlfe scene here, feel that it is quite accurate in its portrayal of much of Thailand's farang-oriented sex industry. I know a lot of people who are habitual readers - on all different subjects - and people who barely ever read, and most of them couldn't put it down, once they had started reading it. To me, that is a book worth reading.

There are a lot of hookers-with-a-heart-of-gold out there, and I have met a lot of them, however, I have lived here a long time, speak Thai fairly well - and most importantly - don't fall in love with them. If I did, I think that Leather's portrayal of them would seem even more spot on.

If you believe that the book is an accurate protrayal of all bar girls, then I feel sorry for you especially as you have lived there a long time. The reality of the average bar girl is a lot different to how it is portayed in the book. Sure they are girls like that, but it is not a true representation of the average girl. Unfortunately people who read this book without prior knowledge of Thailands nightlife perceive this to be how all the girls are, which is simply not true. I will say that it was a brave attempt to try and show both sides of a situation, but unfortunately he let the stereotypical viewpoint of jaded and disillusioned farangs get in the way of a potentially good story.

I don't agree with you, and either do a lot of other people who know a lot about the bar scene here.

For the record, I am not a fan of Stephen Leather's action books or Christpher Moore's novels. They are just not my cup of tea, however, they are not something that I am interested in or entertained by. I don't feel that anyone who likes them, is a blithering idiot. In fact, it is obvious that many of their fans are very intelligent from the great posts that they have written here. 

Now where did I call anyone a "blithering idiot"??? along with your earlier comment, it would appear that you are trying to evoke some sort of response, unfortunately that wont work, I will debate the issue without resorting to insults. Please do not try to put words in my posts that are not there.

gburns57au,2006-01-01 23:43:33]

Why doesnt it surprise me that you endorse a piece of crap like Leathers book.

This is a rather nasty insult in my book, but remember that some of my comments were also directed at Casandra who certainly deserved them even more than you. 

"Why doesnt it surprise me that you endorse a piece of crap like Leathers book"

A direct reference to some comments you made in another post......not meant as an insult but merely as an observation. It was not intended as a comment on your intelligence but rather on your narrow point of view on certain topics.

Now why would Steven tell everyone that the reason he could not get it published was because the book was considered by the publishers to be very dangerous in regard to upsetting the Thai Government. After all he didnt write it so we could read it for free on the net...he wrote it to make money. He needed for it to be published to do that....if the local publishers had of said Yes we will publish it, he would have taken the offer....after all it doesnt matter who publishes it as long as it gets on the shelves. Do you pick up a book by a known author and look at who published it, I dont think so. Now it could be the case that he was under a contract with a publisher that he was unhappy with and had to wait for that to end before he could find someone else to publish it....a very sound reason and one that would be entirely understandable to put on his website....why didnt he just say this.

Yes there are people who would agree with SL's view in the book, there are as many who disagree with it, But therein lies the point made in another topic on this book. He wrote the book to sell it.....writing about the girl who decides for whatever reason to work in the entertainment area, a girl who thinks that finding a good hearted farang can give her a better life, a girl who falls for a farang only to find he has lied to her or had no intention of following through on his promises to her, a girl who after her dreams have been shattered so many times takes a destructive course in life, will not sell as many books as the old story of a girl who intentionally sets out to rip off the good hearted farang, the old white hat and black hat syndrome of so many tacky old westerns, For every good guy there must be a bad guy...in this case the girl in the book is the bad guy.

Try sitting down with one of the good hearted girls you know and explain to her why once again the farang that she thought really loved her does not write to her, explain to her why that phone call will never arrive. She knows the answers before you can tell her but she lives in hope that the next one will be the one. This is more the reality of the average bar girl.....not the view put forward by the esteemed Mr Leather.

As for poor writing.....read the book carefully....if you do I am sure that you will find many discrepancies as I did after one read.

[Ulysses G.]

"Why doesnt it surprise me that you endorse a piece of crap like Leathers book"

A direct reference to some comments you made in another post......not meant as an insult but merely as an observation. It was not intended as a comment on your intelligence but rather on your narrow point of view on certain topics.

gburns57au,2006-01-01 23:43:33]

Why doesnt it surprise me that you endorse a piece of crap like Leathers book.

The fact that you claim that this is not an insult - when it is very obvious that it is - makes me not take anything else that you have to say very seriously. Seems like you just want to win an argument, however dishonestly.

Why don't we just agree to disagree?

[gburns57au]

"Why doesnt it surprise me that you endorse a piece of crap like Leathers book"

A direct reference to some comments you made in another post......not meant as an insult but merely as an observation. It was not intended as a comment on your intelligence but rather on your narrow point of view on certain topics.

gburns57au,2006-01-01 23:43:33]

Why doesnt it surprise me that you endorse a piece of crap like Leathers book.

The fact that you claim that this is not an insult - when it is very obvious that it is - makes me not take anything else that you have to say very seriously. Seems like you just want to win an argument, however dishonestly.

Why don't we just agree to disagree?

No really.....for it to be an insult it has to be intended as an insult and this was not the case.....as I said...it was merely an observation.

Intelligent people read crap and dumb people read classics and vice versa, I dont cast aspersions on your intelligence because you prefer a book that I do not prefer. after all it is a matter of taste.

However as it seems you have run out of debatable points and come back with the classic why dont we agree to disagree....that you no longer wish to debate the issue. It is not that I want to win anything but rather that I enjoy a good verbal joust and at the end of the day if I am proven wrong or corrected by a good and reasonable debate then I will stand up and say so.

It appears in this case that this is not the result........

so I win......

[Ulysses G.]

No really.....for it to be an insult it has to be intended as an insult

What a load of utter MANURE.

Just an observation.

[gburns57au]

No really.....for it to be an insult it has to be intended as an insult

What a load of utter MANURE.

Just an observation.

Ahhh the refuge of the last word......

Checkmate!!!!!

Edited January 3, 2006 by gburns57au

[plachon]

I've recently enjoyed reading Baker and Pongpaichit's "History of Thailand". It sensibly squeezes everything pre-1887 into one chapter and gives a very readable account of the post WW2 era in good detail. They play up the role of the Assembly of the Poor and "people's politics" as a possible alternative to the present "money politics", with a useful little profile section of the main characters in the book towards the end. Published by Cambridge University Press I think. Well worth the cover price if you see it.

By the way, Pira Sudham's books are good accounts of life in Isaan (with the exception of Force of Kharma) and realistic sketches of its people by an author who's first langauge is not English, but Thai. Therefore, I think OAH's comments are rather too personal and below the belt against Sudham, prompted it seems by nothing more than a bit of apparent self-promotion by the man - hardly a rare crime in the world of literature. Move on OAH with your personal gripe....

[Octaviousbp]

I also enjoyed Pongpaichit and Baker's "History of Thailand".

Anyone have any "academic" suggestions? I like to pretend sometimes...

[Backpack_thailand]

I liked Stephen Leather's Private Dancer, entertaining stuff and pretty close to the mark. I've read all his stuff and I like his uncomplicated style of writing.

When talking about Thai related books though, it's hard to ignore The Damage Done, powerful and scary to say the least.

I urge ALL potential visitors to LOS to read this before arriving. Once read you will NEVER do anything wrong here - I guarantee it...!!

[meom]

I also enjoyed Pongpaichit and Baker's "History of Thailand".

Anyone have any "academic" suggestions?  I like to pretend sometimes...

Jennifer Cushman: The formation of a Sino-Thai Tin-Mining Dynasty- Oxford University Press 1991

Frank Darling: Thailand and the United States- Public Affairs Press

Krirkkiat Phipatseritham: Business Groups in Thailand - Singapore Institute of Sotheast Asian Studies

Alfred McCoy: Politics of Heroin-Lawrence Hill Books 1991

Mc Vey: Southeast Asian Capitalists - Cornell University Press 1992

Victor Purcell: The Overseas Chinese in Southeast Asia - Oxford University Press

William Skinner: Leadership and Power in the Chinese Community of Thailand -Cornell University Press

Suchit Bunbongkarn: The military in Thai Politics - Institute of Southeast Asian Studies 1987

Suehiro Akira: Capital Accumulation in Thailand - Centre for East Asian Cultural Studies

[Ulysses G.]

I liked Stephen Leather's Private Dancer, entertaining stuff and pretty close to the mark. I've read all his stuff and I like his uncomplicated style of writing.

When talking about Thai related books though, it's hard to ignore The Damage Done, powerful and scary to say the least.

I urge ALL potential visitors to LOS to read this before arriving. Once read you will NEVER do anything wrong here - I guarantee it...!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I liked the Damage Done too - couldn't put it down - but not sure that I should admit it.

Have the Oxford and Cambridge crowd approved it?

[sbk]

Thank you for FINALLY gettting back on topic!!!!

Enough of the private arguments guys, shall we try to discuss books in a civilised fashion without resorting to name calling and flaming???

There is another one out there called "forget you had a daughter" which I read partway through. Never finished it as I found her excuses for smuggling to be bs and got fairly disgusted with her whole atttitude. Apparently it gets better later on but I never could get past the first chapter.

[sonnyJ]

I have also enjoyed books by Phongpaichit with Baker and Piriyarangsan. Corruption & Democracy in Thailand, and others about economics & politics..

Letters from Thailand has some great insights on expatlife, regardles of cultural background. Would recommend to all to-be-expats.

Have been enjoying reading this conversation.

What do you think of a topic "Worst books about Thailand"? That should be really fun.. There are so many...

Also, it would be some usefull information to chart I think.

[OldAsiaHand]

What do you think of a topic "Worst books about Thailand"? There are so many...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh darn............

[bina]

actually i recently found an old book in a used book store on the seasia shelf:

the ramayan as a novel (aubrey somebody or other, as 'author')

i would say anybody interested in buddhism, thailand, etc should probably read the ramayana or ramakien and not as a 'scholarly' activity but for the fun of it... i really enjoyed the reading!!

did a search on barnes and nobles for buying a version and found several including the thai (eng. trans.)one... all out of print, all expensive, some with photos from a famous wat (cant remember now) that depict the ramayana in murals--

one of the thai versions of the Ramayana

Ramayana: Masterpiece of Thai Literature Retold From the Original Version

Rama I, King Of Thailand

the jataka tales (chadok , in thai): found in english only the 'most famous ten'... am looking for the other 490!!... ... (one i found in B & N: Ten Lives of the Buddha: Siamese Temple Painting and Jataka Tales

Wray, Elizabeth, Clare Rosenfield, And Dorothy Bailey)

i know this is like saying go read the bible when asked for a book recommendation, but really: its great stuff!!! murder, mayhem, cheating, honesty, good guys, bad guys, etc... what more could anybody want in a book???

at coffee breaks S. tells me the chadok tales (in issaan thai); i love listening to oral stories and then read them...maybe someone could recommend the name of a book with pics , in thai, that i can purchase (outside of thailand?) of the ramakien and the chadok (jakata) tales -- like childrens books?? or send me used versions ??i could reimburse...

[sabaijai]

"Siam Mapped" by Thongchai Winichakul

The story of how the geographic concept of Thailand as a nation developed over time.

One of my all-time favourite books about Thailand too. Also delves into Thai identity, Thai nationalism from a social perspective as well,

[camerata]

The English translation of Tales of Sri Thanonchai, Thailand's Artful Trickster is also a good one for anyone delving into Thai culture because it's known to every Thai. And they seem to admire the hero.

[Backpack_thailand]

I liked the Damage Done too - couldn't put it down - but not sure that I should admit it.

Same here, i did it one go over about 4 hours then went straight to page 1 and started again...

[mittheimp]

books i have read are-

'Sightseeing' by Rattawut Lapcharoensap. Lots of short stories about modern Thailand, insightful, and entertaining. Perhaps some dont like it because of the subtle anti-Americanism that runs through some of the stories, but I did!

'Letters from Thailand' by Botan. Really good book about the Chinese arriving in Bangkok and how they have adapted (or not) to thailand and Thai culture. Written as a series of letters home to China.

Jasmine nights by S.P.Somtow was quite readable but some of it didn't quite ring true.

Bangkok 8 by John Burdett was fairly entertaining to read but tailed off with an implausable ending and alot of it semed a bit inaccurate

The beach by Alec Garland, must admit gave up on this as it was stupid and boring, but i had already seen the film (which i also gave up on)

The Politician and other stories by Khamsing Srinawk. Short stories set in Issan, enjoyed this too although not as entertaining as 'sightseeing'

I intend to read 'a child of the northeast' and 'four reigns' as they are sitting in my bookcase, but they look quite long and I've just been given loads of books for xmas, one day!