Divorce Agreement .... Lawyer & Advice Needed

[sk1max]

My wife and I, after being married for 10 years are calling it quits. We need to make a divorce agreement between us and think a lawyer might be needed to draw it up as we have a house and a 9 year old child. Can anyone recommend a decent person to do this in Chiang Mai. Any help advice would be greatly appreciated.

[davehowden]

I am very sorry to hear your bad news. May i suggest that before you see a lawyer you ask yourself if it cannot be sorted out without one, as I fear they will only cost you a lot of money and do nothing to help the situation. Presumably the house is hers anyway, 50% of everything that came into the marriage after you were married is hers, do you want custody of the child (you are unlikely to get it anyway), can you not agree a maintenance provision yourself?

[eyecatcher]

I agree with davehowden-

keep the lawyers out of it; it could destroy the future "friend" relationship with your wife and your children.

An acrymonious divorce will scar you for ever, and potentially your ex could try to destroy your reputation and relationship with the kids.

I have 2 divorces under my belt, on both ocassions it cost me only the court fees for the decrees £100, we both agreed a maintenance payment and 25 and 7 yrs later I am still great friends with both exes....who still give me advice on how to treat my current lady.

financially and emotionally you need to be sensible and fair then you dont need laywers fighting (that means 2 of course)

[TommoPhysicist]

I am very sorry to hear your bad news. May i suggest that before you see a lawyer you ask yourself if it cannot be sorted out without one, as I fear they will only cost you a lot of money and do nothing to help the situation. Presumably the house is hers anyway, 50% of everything that came into the marriage after you were married is hers, do you want custody of the child (you are unlikely to get it anyway), can you not agree a maintenance provision yourself?

Never, ever DIY when assets and children are involved.

If you make a stupid deal at the Amphur office without advice, it becomes legally enforceable.

For example child main by court order, 100bht a day to the person having the child plus 50/50 on health and school.

So if you do 50/50 custody (very usual) neither pays child maint.

If you use government health and school, only a couple of thousand baht a year each.

You won't believe the number of guys I meet that voluntarily gave up their right to custody (forever) for their kids, with a huge monthly pay off, and a free house and car for mum at the Amphur office. In Thailand men have rights over their children and their property, not like the west AT ALL.

If you paid for a house, you can get at least half back, no matter what papers you signed to say it was hers. If you kept records of transferring in money you may well get it all back. Same for the car, doesn't matter whose name it was in, if you were married at the time of purchase.

Edited May 16, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[ianf]

I am very sorry to hear your bad news. May i suggest that before you see a lawyer you ask yourself if it cannot be sorted out without one, as I fear they will only cost you a lot of money and do nothing to help the situation. Presumably the house is hers anyway, 50% of everything that came into the marriage after you were married is hers, do you want custody of the child (you are unlikely to get it anyway), can you not agree a maintenance provision yourself?

Never, ever DIY when assets and children are involved.

If you make a stupid deal at the Amphur office without advice, it becomes legally enforceable.

For example child main by court order, 100bht a day to the person having the child plus 50/50 on health and school.

So if you do 50/50 custody (very usual) neither pays child maint.

If you use government health and school, only a couple of thousand baht a year each.

You won't believe the number of guys I meet that voluntarily gave up their right to custody (forever) for their kids, with a huge monthly pay off, and a free house and car for mum at the Amphur office. In Thailand men have rights over their children and their property, not like the west AT ALL.

If you paid for a house, you can get at least half back, no matter what papers you signed to say it was hers. If you kept records of transferring in money you may well get it all back. Same for the car, doesn't matter whose name it was in, if you were married at the time of purchase.

My ex and myself went to see ONE lawyer to make the whole thing easy. We had our financial agreement in place and it was fully paid up and very generous. Unfortunately my Hi-So ex-wife (a civil engineer and now head of international liasion or something at the main hospital in Chiang Mai, got greedy. Went to see the lawyer on her own and started making outrageous demands. She ended up with double what we agreed. So my advice? Don't trust the baskets! Underneath it all they are all very nasty. She was a classic nutter.

[Beetlejuice]

I am very sorry to hear your bad news. May i suggest that before you see a lawyer you ask yourself if it cannot be sorted out without one, as I fear they will only cost you a lot of money and do nothing to help the situation. Presumably the house is hers anyway, 50% of everything that came into the marriage after you were married is hers, do you want custody of the child (you are unlikely to get it anyway), can you not agree a maintenance provision yourself?

Never, ever DIY when assets and children are involved.

If you make a stupid deal at the Amphur office without advice, it becomes legally enforceable.

For example child main by court order, 100bht a day to the person having the child plus 50/50 on health and school.

So if you do 50/50 custody (very usual) neither pays child maint.

If you use government health and school, only a couple of thousand baht a year each.

You won't believe the number of guys I meet that voluntarily gave up their right to custody (forever) for their kids, with a huge monthly pay off, and a free house and car for mum at the Amphur office. In Thailand men have rights over their children and their property, not like the west AT ALL.

If you paid for a house, you can get at least half back, no matter what papers you signed to say it was hers. If you kept records of transferring in money you may well get it all back. Same for the car, doesn't matter whose name it was in, if you were married at the time of purchase.

My ex and myself went to see ONE lawyer to make the whole thing easy. We had our financial agreement in place and it was fully paid up and very generous. Unfortunately my Hi-So ex-wife (a civil engineer and now head of international liasion or something at the main hospital in Chiang Mai, got greedy. Went to see the lawyer on her own and started making outrageous demands. She ended up with double what we agreed. So my advice? Don't trust the baskets! Underneath it all they are all very nasty. She was a classic nutter.

I agree.

You have to realise that during a divorce there are no niceties and your wife’s sole ambition will be to smash you into the ground and this will happen no matter how long of being together, having a child or whatever, so be prepared to see a side of her you perhaps have never witnessed before.

As far as she is concerned, her family and any lawyer she may hire, it`s winner takes all and they wont be in the market for any compromise or showing any mercy.

My advice is; do not believe that your wife will behave decently towards you and obtain the services of a reputable lawyer, because you’re going to require protection, otherwise they’ll tear you to pieces.

I know because it happened to me.

[Harley23]

I'm about to go thru with getting a Divoice , what's the go with the house that I built & paid for before we got married . I can show all money transfers . Also the pickup was paid for before marriage . Ex terminated the marriage , saying I was not good luck 5555 . We have a son together that's 18 months old . Ex has left my son in the care of her sister , I work offshore , 1 month on / 1 month off . So I have to travel up to see him , even though the ex is no where to be seen , she won't let me take my son to live with me for the month I'm back in Thailand for . Where do I stand ?

I found out ex is back working in bar . We where together for 4 years .

Cheers for any info

[DonaldBattles]

Many farangs take a woman out of the bar as some can speak English. Remember you can take the woman out of the bar but you can't take the bar out of the woman. I would guess that 90% of the farang marriages fail and this is one of the main reasons. Being at home all day is not exciting. Culturally we live on 2 different planets we should think about this seriously before we tie the noose around our necks. A quick baby because she forgot to take her pill is believed to be the path to a golden rice bowl that is never empty. When the money runs out or her friends knows where she get a better farang deal most of the times they will split. After 29 years of living here and 1 year in the university learning everything Thai the longer I live here the less I know.

[TommoPhysicist]

I'm about to go thru with getting a Divoice , what's the go with the house that I built & paid for before we got married . I can show all money transfers . Also the pickup was paid for before marriage . Ex terminated the marriage , saying I was not good luck 5555 . We have a son together that's 18 months old . Ex has left my son in the care of her sister , I work offshore , 1 month on / 1 month off . So I have to travel up to see him , even though the ex is no where to be seen , she won't let me take my son to live with me for the month I'm back in Thailand for . Where do I stand ?

I found out ex is back working in bar . We where together for 4 years .

Cheers for any info

Easy one

The sister has no right to stop the father taking the child, none at all.

You turn up, mother not there, you can take.

[Mario2008]

I'm about to go thru with getting a Divoice , what's the go with the house that I built & paid for before we got married . I can show all money transfers . Also the pickup was paid for before marriage . Ex terminated the marriage , saying I was not good luck 5555 . We have a son together that's 18 months old . Ex has left my son in the care of her sister , I work offshore , 1 month on / 1 month off . So I have to travel up to see him , even though the ex is no where to be seen , she won't let me take my son to live with me for the month I'm back in Thailand for . Where do I stand ?

I found out ex is back working in bar . We where together for 4 years .

Cheers for any info

Per above, you are the legal parent and only the mother doesn't have to give the child over to you as she has the same rights as you. Any other person must hand the child over to you, or could be prosecuted. (In reality the police will try to stay out of family disputes as this, but the law is on your side).

get a good lawyer, and document everything (especially that the mother is not taking care herself of the child) so the court will award you the prime custody over the child. Sole custody will be unlikely, unless the mother is a danger to the child.

[sharktooth]

As me old mate used to say "why get married? Just find someone you don't like and buy her a house."

[monty1412]

I am very sorry to hear your bad news. May i suggest that before you see a lawyer you ask yourself if it cannot be sorted out without one, as I fear they will only cost you a lot of money and do nothing to help the situation. Presumably the house is hers anyway, 50% of everything that came into the marriage after you were married is hers, do you want custody of the child (you are unlikely to get it anyway), can you not agree a maintenance provision yourself?

Never, ever DIY when assets and children are involved.

If you make a stupid deal at the Amphur office without advice, it becomes legally enforceable.

For example child main by court order, 100bht a day to the person having the child plus 50/50 on health and school.

So if you do 50/50 custody (very usual) neither pays child maint.

If you use government health and school, only a couple of thousand baht a year each.

You won't believe the number of guys I meet that voluntarily gave up their right to custody (forever) for their kids, with a huge monthly pay off, and a free house and car for mum at the Amphur office. In Thailand men have rights over their children and their property, not like the west AT ALL.

If you paid for a house, you can get at least half back, no matter what papers you signed to say it was hers. If you kept records of transferring in money you may well get it all back. Same for the car, doesn't matter whose name it was in, if you were married at the time of purchase.

I am so much in agreement with this... so true.. it happened to me.

If you and your wife are on reasonable terms then sketch out a settlement that you both are OK with then together go to a lwayer.. prewarn him this is not a acrimonious split and that you are both coming to just get it in place and legal.

Good luck I lost over 1.5M AUD in property on mine.. poor as a church mouse now but still whistlin....

[monty1412]

As me old mate used to say "why get married? Just find someone you don't like and buy her a house."

Or as they say why is marriage like a tornado.. at first there is allot of blowing and sucking and then you lose your house

[jonwilly]

"the longer I live here the less I know."

Very true for all Frangs.

john

[Chivas]

I am very sorry to hear your bad news. May i suggest that before you see a lawyer you ask yourself if it cannot be sorted out without one, as I fear they will only cost you a lot of money and do nothing to help the situation. Presumably the house is hers anyway, 50% of everything that came into the marriage after you were married is hers, do you want custody of the child (you are unlikely to get it anyway), can you not agree a maintenance provision yourself?

Never, ever DIY when assets and children are involved.

If you make a stupid deal at the Amphur office without advice, it becomes legally enforceable.

For example child main by court order, 100bht a day to the person having the child plus 50/50 on health and school.

So if you do 50/50 custody (very usual) neither pays child maint.

If you use government health and school, only a couple of thousand baht a year each.

You won't believe the number of guys I meet that voluntarily gave up their right to custody (forever) for their kids, with a huge monthly pay off, and a free house and car for mum at the Amphur office. In Thailand men have rights over their children and their property, not like the west AT ALL.

If you paid for a house, you can get at least half back, no matter what papers you signed to say it was hers. If you kept records of transferring in money you may well get it all back. Same for the car, doesn't matter whose name it was in, if you were married at the time of purchase.

My ex and myself went to see ONE lawyer to make the whole thing easy. We had our financial agreement in place and it was fully paid up and very generous. Unfortunately my Hi-So ex-wife (a civil engineer and now head of international liasion or something at the main hospital in Chiang Mai, got greedy. Went to see the lawyer on her own and started making outrageous demands. She ended up with double what we agreed. So my advice? Don't trust the baskets! Underneath it all they are all very nasty. She was a classic nutter.

Yes I agree with this entirely. I am in the same situation as the OP and am divorcing against my will as such.

I had previously played nice with a previous Thai wife (yes why did I do it again) and did everything amicably and I was subsequently royally shafted. Its not happening again....!!

The more nice you are the weaker you appear.....

[Harley23]

I'm about to go thru with getting a Divoice , what's the go with the house that I built & paid for before we got married . I can show all money transfers . Also the pickup was paid for before marriage . Ex terminated the marriage , saying I was not good luck 5555 . We have a son together that's 18 months old . Ex has left my son in the care of her sister , I work offshore , 1 month on / 1 month off . So I have to travel up to see him , even though the ex is no where to be seen , she won't let me take my son to live with me for the month I'm back in Thailand for . Where do I stand ?

I found out ex is back working in bar . We where together for 4 years .

Cheers for any info

Per above, you are the legal parent and only the mother doesn't have to give the child over to you as she has the same rights as you. Any other person must hand the child over to you, or could be prosecuted. (In reality the police will try to stay out of family disputes as this, but the law is on your side).

get a good lawyer, and document everything (especially that the mother is not taking care herself of the child) so the court will award you the prime custody over the child. Sole custody will be unlikely, unless the mother is a danger to the child.

Thanks for the info , How do I stand with the house & pickup , Ex has a major gambling problem which has lead to all this happening . She has sold all furniture etc , out of house . I have the Pickup , which is in her name , that I paid for. My son is not living in house he is living with sister in a small run down place that I also paid for , Stupid Farang 5555. Im sending money to sister to take care of my son , putting in her Bank Acc , so ex has no way of accessing the money. So the Police cant stop me taking my son ? All I want is the best for my son . The ex has 2 other sons , & 1 grandson . Im back in Thailand next month , any good Lawyers in Pattaya . When I have to go back to work do I have to take my son back to ex sister or can I organise for 1 of my family to look after him , I dont want him living up in that enviroment.

Cheers

[TommoPhysicist]

I'm about to go thru with getting a Divoice , what's the go with the house that I built & paid for before we got married . I can show all money transfers . Also the pickup was paid for before marriage . Ex terminated the marriage , saying I was not good luck 5555 . We have a son together that's 18 months old . Ex has left my son in the care of her sister , I work offshore , 1 month on / 1 month off . So I have to travel up to see him , even though the ex is no where to be seen , she won't let me take my son to live with me for the month I'm back in Thailand for . Where do I stand ?

I found out ex is back working in bar . We where together for 4 years .

Cheers for any info

Per above, you are the legal parent and only the mother doesn't have to give the child over to you as she has the same rights as you. Any other person must hand the child over to you, or could be prosecuted. (In reality the police will try to stay out of family disputes as this, but the law is on your side).

get a good lawyer, and document everything (especially that the mother is not taking care herself of the child) so the court will award you the prime custody over the child. Sole custody will be unlikely, unless the mother is a danger to the child.

Thanks for the info , How do I stand with the house & pickup , Ex has a major gambling problem which has lead to all this happening . She has sold all furniture etc , out of house . I have the Pickup , which is in her name , that I paid for. My son is not living in house he is living with sister in a small run down place that I also paid for , Stupid Farang 5555. Im sending money to sister to take care of my son , putting in her Bank Acc , so ex has no way of accessing the money. So the Police cant stop me taking my son ? All I want is the best for my son . The ex has 2 other sons , & 1 grandson . Im back in Thailand next month , any good Lawyers in Pattaya . When I have to go back to work do I have to take my son back to ex sister or can I organise for 1 of my family to look after him , I dont want him living up in that enviroment.

Cheers

The rules are the parent that has him, keeps him and can hide him.

Unless the other parent finds him, who can then take him from anyone except from a parent.

But you are paying the sister to keep him for/from you, and most won't give up a cash cow without a fight.

The police, if called would be required to hand him to you, unless the mother was there to say no.

(so take his birth cert with you when you snatch, and maybe some muscle, two Thai guys with tattoos work best)

Edited May 17, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Harley23]

Just another question would I have any trouble exiting Thailand with immergation , when going back to work . When my ex knows I have my son . Could or would she be able to stop me exiting when my family is looking after my son at my condo .

Thanks again for info .

[Mario2008]

No, not unless you are traveling with the child. They can deny you leaving with the child, unless you have sole parental rights.

If you leave the child with your family, the mother can of course demand the child back from your family when you are not around.

[Mapguy]

Get a lawyer!! An amicable divorce will probably cost about 10,000. Sorry, I don't feel it appropriate to recommend one. Various consulates have lists. They unfortunately are not recommendations but just lists.

Before you get the lawyer, check out Thai Law for Foreigners and a couple of the web sites provided by firms on TV. You can learn much more about the general situation and a lot of specifics that might apply in your case.

[Wombat6]

(Thanks for the info , How do I stand with the house & pickup , Ex has a major gambling problem which has lead to all this happening . She has sold all furniture etc , out of house . I have the Pickup , which is in her name , that I paid for. My son is not living in house he is living with sister in a small run down place that I also paid for , Stupid Farang 5555. Im sending money to sister to take care of my son , putting in her Bank Acc , so ex has no way of accessing the money. So the Police cant stop me taking my son ? All I want is the best for my son . The ex has 2 other sons , & 1 grandson . Im back in Thailand next month , any good Lawyers in Pattaya . When I have to go back to work do I have to take my son back to ex sister or can I organise for 1 of my family to look after him , I dont want him living up in that enviroment.)

What you had prior to the marriage is yours. You only have to share 50/50 on what assets/losses that have accumulated during Marriage

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Sole custody will be unlikely, unless the mother is a danger to the child.

Sole custody is usually quite easy and not expensive, as long as the mother is poor and trusts you to give the kids a better life than she could, she'll often sign away her rights for not much at all.

Personally I'd advise a forceful "snatch" scene for the sake of the kids.

Just approach the whole thing with calm confidence, state that you're taking the kid. Only bring up the fact that she doesn't have the right to say no if that's necessary, and do whatever you can to avoid a big traumatic scene with police or minders or whatever.

If a translator is needed then a high-class bookish type that could pass for a lawyer is better than muscle IMO.

[TommoPhysicist]

Personally I'd advise a forceful "snatch" scene for the sake of the kids.

Take the kids out for a McDonalds, just you and them, don't warn the kids in advance, don't go back.

What can she do, can't call the police as you are the dad.

[Mario2008]

Sole custody will be unlikely, unless the mother is a danger to the child.

Sole custody is usually quite easy and not expensive, as long as the mother is poor and trusts you to give the kids a better life than she could, she'll often sign away her rights for not much at all.

Personally I'd advise a forceful "snatch" scene for the sake of the kids.

Just approach the whole thing with calm confidence, state that you're taking the kid. Only bring up the fact that she doesn't have the right to say no if that's necessary, and do whatever you can to avoid a big traumatic scene with police or minders or whatever.

If a translator is needed then a high-class bookish type that could pass for a lawyer is better than muscle IMO.

If the mother agrees it is no problem, but if she doesn't agree getting sole parental rights is a big problem.

Snatching the children can be done, but the children can not be taken out of Thailand. Also the father has limited time with the children, because of his job outside of Thailand. Getting the children in a situation where they are continously snatched by the other parent might not be in the best interest of the children.

[Harley23]

Thanks for advise , I have all my sons paperwork , birth certificate , passport , all with my surname . Supposedly I was to take him & not return him , got him away from the village . Could ex be able to notify immigration to keep an eye out for him ? All my ex knows is that I'm living in BKK . She hasn't seen son for over 3 months now . I spoke with lawyer , he advises me to divoice her under the law of Misconduct , your opinions on that ! Lawyer wants to go for house , I also have paperwork for some land that I will get translated that she has bought unbeknown to me till now . There is now house book as loan sharks are holding it . I'm not worried about house . Just want my son . Cheers

[Mario2008]

Taking the child away to another country would be parental kidnapping and could have serious consequences, both in Thailand and Australia. Talk this over very carefully with your lawyer.

Your lawyer will know best which course of action to follow, as he will have more details than the memebrs on the forum. If your lawyer knows Thai family law, it is best to follow your lawyers advise.

If you are only interested about your son, then that gives you some leverage to negotiate with your wife about a settlement in which you get sole custody in exchange for you not taking your legal share in the joint property.

[monty1412]

Thanks for advise , I have all my sons paperwork , birth certificate , passport , all with my surname . Supposedly I was to take him & not return him , got him away from the village . Could ex be able to notify immigration to keep an eye out for him ? All my ex knows is that I'm living in BKK . She hasn't seen son for over 3 months now . I spoke with lawyer , he advises me to divoice her under the law of Misconduct , your opinions on that ! Lawyer wants to go for house , I also have paperwork for some land that I will get translated that she has bought unbeknown to me till now . There is now house book as loan sharks are holding it . I'm not worried about house . Just want my son . Cheers

It sounds reasonable but you cant afford to have only one opinion in my view. A second opinion from another lawyer without you predicating his advice past on what you know from current lawyer might be costly but worth it. Be careful with misconduct..... its all tow easy t draw that sword from the scabbard only to find out its double edged.... clean up your facebook and any public trace. are there photos of you around drunk or with whole lot of bar girls.. is there anything that she can turn against you.

A friend had a situation where he went misconduct route, his wife produced photos and emails that were not well lets say not your joe average citizen stuff and claimed that her actions were as a result of this and living with him had dragged her down and reason for divorce was that she didn't want to go down the cesspool with him.. it was totally unfair and unjustified but lawyers can take the sword you want to wield and cut you with it even deeper...

Make sure your public trace is squeaky clean.

Not suggesting by the way that you are a drunk or hang with bar girls but a simple picture of a friends birthday where a few drinks was had at a bar with a few girls in the photo can be turned around.

Good luck

[Harley23]

Thanks for advise , I have all my sons paperwork , birth certificate , passport , all with my surname . Supposedly I was to take him & not return him , got him away from the village . Could ex be able to notify immigration to keep an eye out for him ? All my ex knows is that I'm living in BKK . She hasn't seen son for over 3 months now . I spoke with lawyer , he advises me to divoice her under the law of Misconduct , your opinions on that ! Lawyer wants to go for house , I also have paperwork for some land that I will get translated that she has bought unbeknown to me till now . There is now house book as loan sharks are holding it . I'm not worried about house . Just want my son . Cheers

It sounds reasonable but you cant afford to have only one opinion in my view. A second opinion from another lawyer without you predicating his advice past on what you know from current lawyer might be costly but worth it. Be careful with misconduct..... its all tow easy t draw that sword from the scabbard only to find out its double edged.... clean up your facebook and any public trace. are there photos of you around drunk or with whole lot of bar girls.. is there anything that she can turn against you.

A friend had a situation where he went misconduct route, his wife produced photos and emails that were not well lets say not your joe average citizen stuff and claimed that her actions were as a result of this and living with him had dragged her down and reason for divorce was that she didn't want to go down the cesspool with him.. it was totally unfair and unjustified but lawyers can take the sword you want to wield and cut you with it even deeper...

Make sure your public trace is squeaky clean.

Not suggesting by the way that you are a drunk or hang with bar girls but a simple picture of a friends birthday where a few drinks was had at a bar with a few girls in the photo can be turned around.

Good luck

Thanks for advice Monty ,

Ive put together what I call my Divoice Pack , Photos of Sons living conditions, House etc , what ive bought over the years , Bank transfers , SMS messages . Any thing else I my have forgot ??

[RidersCorner]

You'll make it back

I am very sorry to hear your bad news. May i suggest that before you see a lawyer you ask yourself if it cannot be sorted out without one, as I fear they will only cost you a lot of money and do nothing to help the situation. Presumably the house is hers anyway, 50% of everything that came into the marriage after you were married is hers, do you want custody of the child (you are unlikely to get it anyway), can you not agree a maintenance provision yourself?

Never, ever DIY when assets and children are involved.

If you make a stupid deal at the Amphur office without advice, it becomes legally enforceable.

For example child main by court order, 100bht a day to the person having the child plus 50/50 on health and school.

So if you do 50/50 custody (very usual) neither pays child maint.

If you use government health and school, only a couple of thousand baht a year each.

You won't believe the number of guys I meet that voluntarily gave up their right to custody (forever) for their kids, with a huge monthly pay off, and a free house and car for mum at the Amphur office. In Thailand men have rights over their children and their property, not like the west AT ALL.

If you paid for a house, you can get at least half back, no matter what papers you signed to say it was hers. If you kept records of transferring in money you may well get it all back. Same for the car, doesn't matter whose name it was in, if you were married at the time of purchase.

I am so much in agreement with this... so true.. it happened to me.

If you and your wife are on reasonable terms then sketch out a settlement that you both are OK with then together go to a lwayer.. prewarn him this is not a acrimonious split and that you are both coming to just get it in place and legal.

Good luck I lost over 1.5M AUD in property on mine.. poor as a church mouse now but still whistlin....