Bangkok: Huge Turnout Expected At Red-Shirt Rally Today

[rixalex]

Jean Charles de Menezes was shot in the head seven times by the UK authorities, not far from Piccadilly Circus, for looking like a suspect. He wasn't armed. This is an example of how seriously they are capable of dealing with people they think pose a threat. Your belief that these same authorities would refrain from using deadly force if faced with protesters armed in the way the red shirts were, is delusional.

There is a world away between the armed nutters response group who shot de Menzes whilst the UK had been hyped up to the rafters with "terrorist" threats and the British Army deploying snipers for crowd control in the UK. If you think I'm delusional so be it, I can live with the fact that you will not accept opinions that oppose your own.

If what happened in Bangkok played out in central London for week after week, that hyped up to the rafters atmosphere you speak of would seem like a candle lit dinner.

[chuang]

I can only respond with "proportionate response". If a red/black/journalist/medic were taking "potshots" at the RTA I would fully respect the RTA making a proportionate response as according to the ROE.

It can be argued, quite successfully I think, that this was not always, or even often, the case.

You seem to have the opinion that all the red shirts that were shot were innocent, and everything was the army's fault, all because a nurse got shot.

90+ civilians were killed during the turmoil...if they were not killed by the army ( opposite side ) then who killed them...

the Reds did...or better still committed suicides themselves....

[lovetotravel]

Why would it be necessary "to have to use force to crackdown on protesters.... again"

If as you imply, Thida and the red shirts wish to receive justice before unity, why can that not be acheived without the RTA being let loose again. All it takes is for the investigations into the deaths to be conducted as a priority and responsibility being accorded and accepted on both sides. No need for more bloodshed.

Of course, Abhisit could have given the TRCT some teeth in the granting of subpoena powers to the committee and we wouldn't be in this position now. The fact that he didn't says a lot about how much he was interested in the truth coming out at the time, hoping, once again Thailand will forget.

I think, hope, those days are gone and so do Thida and the red shirts.

The PTP's stance on this is a lot more nuanced. People can say that Thaksin doesn't want the truth to come out, but if that was really the case don't you think that Abhisit and his backers, if they were so sure of their innocence in all this, would want all the ammunition (pun intended) they needed to expose Thaksin?

Interesting post. It's confusing for sure. The "basic" truth is already known, just not acknowledged by any party. The reds started the mess, were armed, and killed some people. The army cracked down and killed some people. The reds were 100% backed by Thaksin in his quest to return to Thailand and get his money back. The army was brought in by the government to help restore order. Right so far?

I don't think any country in the world could have done anything much different. When one of your officers gets killed, it kinda makes things go downhill.

Seems the reds want a single person to point the finger at. And they want it to be one of the dems. Political? Absolutely.

I do find it interesting that the dems didn't deal with this quicker when they were in power. But the legal process moves very slowly here. I do believe it's still crawling along for the airport mess???

[phiphidon]

Why would it be necessary "to have to use force to crackdown on protesters.... again"

If as you imply, Thida and the red shirts wish to receive justice before unity, why can that not be acheived without the RTA being let loose again. All it takes is for the investigations into the deaths to be conducted as a priority and responsibility being accorded and accepted on both sides. No need for more bloodshed.

Of course, Abhisit could have given the TRCT some teeth in the granting of subpoena powers to the committee and we wouldn't be in this position now. The fact that he didn't says a lot about how much he was interested in the truth coming out at the time, hoping, once again Thailand will forget.

I think, hope, those days are gone and so do Thida and the red shirts.

The PTP's stance on this is a lot more nuanced. People can say that Thaksin doesn't want the truth to come out, but if that was really the case don't you think that Abhisit and his backers, if they were so sure of their innocence in all this, would want all the ammunition (pun intended) they needed to expose Thaksin?

I wonder why PTP haven't given TRCT some teeth by allowing them to subpoena witnesses.

Now, if I said that I would have the usual suspects down on me like a ton of bricks all saying

"why do keep on referring to what the democrat party/abhisit has done and not criticise what the PTP/thaksin has done"

- recognise that argument?

Did you read this part of my post?

"The PTP's stance on this is a lot more nuanced"

[Insight]

By international standards, they are complete pussycats.

Try and conduct your 2-month long "protest" in Piccadilly Circus and you'll soon start appreciating them a bit more.

Even I doubt that Abhisits Oxford chum, Dave, would deploy snipers for crowd control so if it came down to it I'd pick Piccadilly Circus but this is about Thailand not the UK.

I'll stay away from the painfully obvious refute for now.

What date did these "army" snipers you cite first become evident?

[Skywalker69]

I can only respond with "proportionate response". If a red/black/journalist/medic were taking "potshots" at the RTA I would fully respect the RTA making a proportionate response as according to the ROE.

It can be argued, quite successfully I think, that this was not always, or even often, the case.

You seem to have the opinion that all the red shirts that were shot were innocent, and everything was the army's fault, all because a nurse got shot.

90+ civilians were killed during the turmoil...if they were not killed by the army ( opposite side ) then who killed them...

the Reds did...or better still committed suicides themselves....

This picture was posted on TV during the Bangkok riots.

The TV Red Shirt lovers has not commented, the times it has been posted.

Wonder why?

[philw]

I can only respond with "proportionate response". If a red/black/journalist/medic were taking "potshots" at the RTA I would fully respect the RTA making a proportionate response as according to the ROE.

It can be argued, quite successfully I think, that this was not always, or even often, the case.

You seem to have the opinion that all the red shirts that were shot were innocent, and everything was the army's fault, all because a nurse got shot.

90+ civilians were killed during the turmoil...if they were not killed by the army ( opposite side ) then who killed them...

the Reds did...or better still committed suicides themselves....

This picture was posted on TV during the Bangkok riots.

The TV Red Shirt lovers has not commented, the times it has been posted.

Wonder why?

Got anything constructive to add or are you just baiting ?

[gand]

The red/black shirts committed the first and many subsequent acts of violence before the overly patient gov't sent the army in and even then they waited even longer before finally dealing with these criminals.

[473geo]

I suggest you all read today's column by Voranai Vanijaka in "The Other Newspaper". He lays out the entire sordid affair clearly. Its all gray areas. Both sides are right - and both sides are wrong. The problem is that the TV red shirts - Phi, and others, refuse to see that their "side" is wrong in any degree, while the TV yellow shirts see everything the red shirts do as evil and having a hidden agenda from Thaksin. Therein lies the problem No compromise means no progress.

The army killed red shirts - yes

The red shirts killed army - yes

Thaksin paid red shirts - yes

The army used live ammunition and killed innocents - yes

The red shirts fired RPG rounds and used human shields and parked NGV trucks near residential areas - yes

The yellow shirts invaded the airport and forced its closure - yes

The red shirts invaded a meeting of world leaders and forced its closure - yes

The red shirts burned down lots of buildings and invaded a hospital - yes

All these things happened. Not just some of them. ALL are at fault. ALL need to try to restore a sense of balance. I actually think Thaksin understands that. It seems the TV red shirts do not, TV Yellow shirts, and anyone else who constantly refuses to view both sides of the issue are at fault - which is most of us.

Post has been up for 5 hours - certainly both the TV reds and TV yellows have read, but neglect to comment. Compromise, and admission of partial responsibility don't work with their indoctrinated belief structure.

You ever come across two people hitting and returning a ball over a net............did you wander over and tell them it was a pointless exercise, because although they both win points the ball never actually goes anywhere.......

Did they pause and say "you are probably right"

Then continue..

That is Thai visa.............not the real life and death scenario of Thai people caught up in Thailands complex poitical evolution

[KunMatt]

The red/black shirts committed the first and many subsequent acts of violence before the overly patient gov't sent the army in and even then they waited even longer before finally dealing with these criminals.

As well as this, before the riots Abhisit held a live televised sit down meeting with 3 of the red shirt leaders to try and find a resolution before it escalated - regardless of the talks offered the same red shirt leaders started the riots the next day. They were not forced into starting the riots when they did but they had already bused in thousands of peasants from all over the country to be a paid flock of sheep to send to the slaughter for them.

Before the clampdown the red shirts were offered their demands and they were offered elections within 6 months (which is what they said they were rioting for) - they immediately changed their demands so the riots and subsequent clampdown could continue and intensify. There was never going to be any negotiation or early end to the riots, the plan all along was to burn Bangkok and kill as many people from both sides as possible and try to blame it all on the other side, which is why they were as provocative and offensive as they were while the army were holding back.

Proof of intent of the riots shown in these two videos filmed 4 months before them;

The red shirt leaders encouraged all the rioters to fight until death and they said they all intended to die there too, but as soon as the army got within shooting distance of them they threw up their hands and surrendered like the cowards they really were. If the red supporters were really there for the movement why do they still support these red shirt leaders who blatantly lied and sacrificed them all during the riots? It's probably because the only thing they actually care about is getting paid to turn up and going to a party with free food and drink.

Corrupt thugs and liars, that's all they really are. It was never (and still isn't) anything to do with any democracy or trying to help any underprivileged Thais. It's all about the cause of one man who would sacrifice his own people and burn down his own country just to get his way.

How anybody, let alone supposedly non-biased non-naive expats, cannot see what really happened is beyond me.

[lovetotravel]

The red shirt leaders encouraged all the rioters to fight until death and they said they all intended to die there too, but as soon as the army got within shooting distance of them they threw up their hands and surrendered like the cowards they really were. If the red supporters were really there for the movement why do they still support these red shirt leaders who blatantly lied and sacrificed them all during the riots? It's probably because the only thing they actually care about is getting paid to turn up and going to a party with free food and drink.

Corrupt thugs and liars, that's all they really are. It was never (and still isn't) anything to do with any democracy or trying to help any underprivileged Thais. It's all about the cause of one man who would sacrifice his own people and burn down his own country just to get his way.

How anybody, let alone supposedly non-biased non-naive expats, cannot see what really happened is beyond me.

If I am not mistaken, they ran. They didn't surrender?

Also, both sides are corrupt and liars. For the most part.

[Skywalker69]

The red/black shirts committed the first and many subsequent acts of violence before the overly patient gov't sent the army in and even then they waited even longer before finally dealing with these criminals.

As well as this, before the riots Abhisit held a live televised sit down meeting with 3 of the red shirt leaders to try and find a resolution before it escalated - regardless of the talks offered the same red shirt leaders started the riots the next day. They were not forced into starting the riots when they did but they had already bused in thousands of peasants from all over the country to be a paid flock of sheep to send to the slaughter for them.

Before the clampdown the red shirts were offered their demands and they were offered elections within 6 months (which is what they said they were rioting for) - they immediately changed their demands so the riots and subsequent clampdown could continue and intensify. There was never going to be any negotiation or early end to the riots, the plan all along was to burn Bangkok and kill as many people from both sides as possible and try to blame it all on the other side, which is why they were as provocative and offensive as they were while the army were holding back.

Proof of intent of the riots shown in these two videos filmed 4 months before them;

[media=]

The red shirt leaders encouraged all the rioters to fight until death and they said they all intended to die there too, but as soon as the army got within shooting distance of them they threw up their hands and surrendered like the cowards they really were. If the red supporters were really there for the movement why do they still support these red shirt leaders who blatantly lied and sacrificed them all during the riots? It's probably because the only thing they actually care about is getting paid to turn up and going to a party with free food and drink.

Corrupt thugs and liars, that's all they really are. It was never (and still isn't) anything to do with any democracy or trying to help any underprivileged Thais. It's all about the cause of one man who would sacrifice his own people and burn down his own country just to get his way.

How anybody, let alone supposedly non-biased non-naive expats, cannot see what really happened is beyond me.

I think it beyond a lot of us, sad,sad.

[KireB]

Perhaps a better label would be the TV Reds and the TV Anti-Reds. Same thought applies though. Neither are capable of compromise or admission that fault lies among all parties.

Quite hard to compromise after 89 or more people died! The people who started this structured and organized mayhem must be held accountable and go to jail till the end of times!

[KunMatt]

The red shirt leaders encouraged all the rioters to fight until death and they said they all intended to die there too, but as soon as the army got within shooting distance of them they threw up their hands and surrendered like the cowards they really were. If the red supporters were really there for the movement why do they still support these red shirt leaders who blatantly lied and sacrificed them all during the riots? It's probably because the only thing they actually care about is getting paid to turn up and going to a party with free food and drink.

Corrupt thugs and liars, that's all they really are. It was never (and still isn't) anything to do with any democracy or trying to help any underprivileged Thais. It's all about the cause of one man who would sacrifice his own people and burn down his own country just to get his way.

How anybody, let alone supposedly non-biased non-naive expats, cannot see what really happened is beyond me.

If I am not mistaken, they ran. They didn't surrender?

Also, both sides are corrupt and liars. For the most part.

You are very much mistaken. They negotiated a surrender over the phone while they were surrounded on their stage and then the police came through the crowds to the stage and arrested them. It was all live on television. As they were arrested they said to the crowds who were crying in disbelief some BS like "we are doing this for you because we do not want any redshirts to be hurt", despite the fact they had orchestrated the deaths of dozens of them during the preceding weeks.

[KireB]

This picture was posted on TV during the Bangkok riots.

The TV Red Shirt lovers has not commented, the times it has been posted.

Wonder why?

Got anything constructive to add or are you just baiting ?

The fact that you find this photo not constructive is absurd! The red shirt movement had an armed element that instigated the violence we saw in 2010. Photos, interviews and film material support this argument. How can evidence not be constructive? Next you're gonna tell me these photos are fake!

[Buchholz]

This picture was posted on TV during the Bangkok riots.

The TV Red Shirt lovers has not commented, the times it has been posted.

Wonder why?

Got anything constructive to add or are you just baiting ?

they still haven't, skywalker.

.

[SomTumTiger]

Perhaps a better label would be the TV Reds and the TV Anti-Reds. Same thought applies though. Neither are capable of compromise or admission that fault lies among all parties.

Quite hard to compromise after 89 or more people died! The people who started this structured and organized mayhem must be held accountable and go to jail till the end of times!

But what if both of them started it. lol

[gand]

Innocent red shirts, I don't think so.

"Bangkok redshirt grenade attack on Thai Army Troops April 2010" youtube

"Thai protest hit by grenade attacks" youtube

[FOODLOVER]

Even my red shirt friends in Issan shake their heads, and roll their eyes when I mention Yingluck. I believe they are losing patience with her lack of competence. Let us see how many show up for these rallies. Perhaps it will be a sign of how much support remains for the neophyte.

Maybe the rally is for a switch from Yingluck to her brother.

Well, ot's certainly not a switch to Abhisit who has been MIA this past week.

He's at The Four Seasons.

[metisdead]

A nonsense post advocating mass suicide has been removed as well as the replies.

[473geo]

Perhaps a better label would be the TV Reds and the TV Anti-Reds. Same thought applies though. Neither are capable of compromise or admission that fault lies among all parties.

Quite hard to compromise after 89 or more people died! The people who started this structured and organized mayhem must be held accountable and go to jail till the end of times!

The law states certain people in authority cannot face charges... an election result was pre-empted by manipulating events.......a government installed......the door was thrown open for rebellion and dissent... ..yes you are right...go to the cause not the effect.....and while you are at it look into why no charges have been laid regarding the Tak Bai incident you consistently refer to.......

[KireB]

Perhaps a better label would be the TV Reds and the TV Anti-Reds. Same thought applies though. Neither are capable of compromise or admission that fault lies among all parties.

Quite hard to compromise after 89 or more people died! The people who started this structured and organized mayhem must be held accountable and go to jail till the end of times!

But what if both of them started it. lol

It's pretty obvious who took the demonstrations to the next 'deadly' level, isn't it! Kok Wua intersection April 10th 2010, Col Romklao rings a bell?

[KireB]

Perhaps a better label would be the TV Reds and the TV Anti-Reds. Same thought applies though. Neither are capable of compromise or admission that fault lies among all parties.

Quite hard to compromise after 89 or more people died! The people who started this structured and organized mayhem must be held accountable and go to jail till the end of times!

The law states certain people in authority cannot face charges... an election result was pre-empted by manipulating events.......a government installed......the door was thrown open for rebellion and dissent... ..yes you are right...go to the cause not the effect.....and while you are at it look into why no charges have been laid regarding the Tak Bai incident you consistently refer to.......

I think that the mastermind behind the organized mayhem is no authority at all! He's actually on the run, hiding cowardly under a desert rock, using his ill gained wealth to create havoc in what was once his homeland! The rest of your post makes are not clear to me, please elaborate.

[473geo]

Perhaps a better label would be the TV Reds and the TV Anti-Reds. Same thought applies though. Neither are capable of compromise or admission that fault lies among all parties.

Quite hard to compromise after 89 or more people died! The people who started this structured and organized mayhem must be held accountable and go to jail till the end of times!

The law states certain people in authority cannot face charges... an election result was pre-empted by manipulating events.......a government installed......the door was thrown open for rebellion and dissent... ..yes you are right...go to the cause not the effect.....and while you are at it look into why no charges have been laid regarding the Tak Bai incident you consistently refer to.......

I think that the mastermind behind the organized mayhem is no authority at all! He's actually on the run, hiding cowardly under a desert rock, using his ill gained wealth to create havoc in what was once his homeland! The rest of your post makes are not clear to me, please elaborate.

I don't need to elaborate, like many, you need to accept that Thailand has not arrived at this place in time due to one man. When you can adapt and broaden your view, read a little of the information available outside Tvisa, you may understand. Thaksin has played a part in the proceedings no doubt, another massive miscalculation by the would be controllers, but you understimate the importance of the real power brokers in action. If you understand you will have noticed the shifting sands that await Thai politics yet again.......

[tlansford]

I suggest you all read today's column by Voranai Vanijaka in "The Other Newspaper". He lays out the entire sordid affair clearly. Its all gray areas. Both sides are right - and both sides are wrong. The problem is that the TV red shirts - Phi, and others, refuse to see that their "side" is wrong in any degree, while the TV yellow shirts see everything the red shirts do as evil and having a hidden agenda from Thaksin. Therein lies the problem No compromise means no progress.

The army killed red shirts - yes

The red shirts killed army - yes

Thaksin paid red shirts - yes

The army used live ammunition and killed innocents - yes

The red shirts fired RPG rounds and used human shields and parked NGV trucks near residential areas - yes

The yellow shirts invaded the airport and forced its closure - yes

The red shirts invaded a meeting of world leaders and forced its closure - yes

The red shirts burned down lots of buildings and invaded a hospital - yes

All these things happened. Not just some of them. ALL are at fault. ALL need to try to restore a sense of balance. I actually think Thaksin understands that. It seems the TV red shirts do not, TV Yellow shirts, and anyone else who constantly refuses to view both sides of the issue are at fault - which is most of us.

a remarkably balanced post

I suspect that those you would call "TV reds" or "TV yellows" would not identify themselves as such. But that point aside, (speaking for myself) it is perfectly clear that a completely peaceful protest in 2010 would have been a much better strategy IMO, as would have been better decisions on the part of the gov't regarding lethal force (ie : to not have used it).

But to go further is to go into a hypothetical discussion which is not related to the events as they happened.

Not to speak for Phiphidon or others, I am not of your opinion that posters such as these do not see the problems on all sides of the Thai political issues. Most, if not all, have even commented on / acknowledged this when the occasion has presented itself... an unusually rare occurrence.

[hyperdimension]

The law states certain people in authority cannot face charges... an election result was pre-empted by manipulating events.......a government installed......the door was thrown open for rebellion and dissent...

"rebellion and dissent" was manufactured by Thaksin and his PR machine, which consists of propaganda channels like radio stations, Satelite television stations ("Asia Update"), magazines ("Voice of Taksin", "Red Power"), and international lobbyists:

Barbour Griffith & Rogers Lobbying Report (2011-01-20)

Provide strategic counsel on U.S. government policy and assist with advancing the individual's desire to promote democracy in Southeast Asia.

Amsterdam & Peroff LLP Lobbying Report (2010-10-20)

Counsel and guidance with respect to Mr. Thaksin's interests in Washington, DC and abroad

Kobre & Kim LLP Lobbying Report (2010-07-19)

Baker Botts L.L.P. Lobbying Report (2007-08-14)

Develop and implement a strategic approach to the various international legal and political issues that confront Dr. Thaksin due to the coup of September 19. The firm will monitor the evolution of US polices towards the interim government in Thailand or the Administration's position regarding attempts by Dr. Thaksin's return to Thailand and may subsequently undertake contacts as necessary to ensure that such policies remain consistent with those currently in place.

Daniel J. Edelman (2007-01-25)

Source: Corporate-funded "People's" Movement

Also see The USA for Innovation story to read more about the extents to which Thaksin goes to in his PR / propaganda efforts.

[tlansford]

This picture was posted on TV during the Bangkok riots.

The TV Red Shirt lovers has not commented, the times it has been posted.

Wonder why?

Got anything constructive to add or are you just baiting ?

The fact that you find this photo not constructive is absurd! The red shirt movement had an armed element that instigated the violence we saw in 2010. Photos, interviews and film material support this argument. How can evidence not be constructive? Next you're gonna tell me these photos are fake!

The point is that he (skywalker) was just baiting.

The deaths of soldiers are equally depressing as the deaths of the journalists or protesters.

But the post was still just a trolling attempt.

[tlansford]

The red/black shirts committed the first and many subsequent acts of violence before the overly patient gov't sent the army in and even then they waited even longer before finally dealing with these criminals.

As far as I know, that is incorrect. If we are talking about April 10 2010, and I think we are, then the first victim was a protester shot by a sniper. The violence by the MIB did not come first.

But that does not excuse the violence by either side, does it?

[Buchholz]

^ Red Shirt violence began in July, 2007.

,

Edited May 20, 2012 by Buchholz

[hyperdimension]

the real power brokers in action.

The old elites have worked hard to hold onto their power. Thaksin has now wrestled power back to himself and his clan. But did he really need to have people die just to achieve this goal?