Thaksin At Odds With Reds Over Call For Justice

[Crushdepth]

And as the police themselves said more than likely for export. No links to the red shirts ever found.

Thai police think the illegally made M79 grenade launcher parts seized in Ayutthaya on 13 March and more in the neighboring Samut Prakan on the next day are for the United Wa State Army (UWSA) that is currently at loggerheads with Burma’s ruling military junta over the Border Guard Force (BGF) deal, according to the news community in Bangkok.

The factory owner Cherdyod Jirawattanarak had reportedly admitted that he had already delivered over 1,000 of the parts to the arms traffickers. Police found 600 completed parts for the M79 grenade launchers. Chief of Police Region #1 Krissada Pankongchuen said his investigators had yet to conclude that the seizures were linked to the red shirt demonstrations that began on 13 March, the same day the seizure was made.

“But the huge quantity of the seizure indicates that they are likely to be more for export than for internal use,” a newsman quoted the police as saying.

Demand for arms and ammo have been on the rise since tensions between the Burma Army and the UWSA were on the rise since last year.

Though they are more easily purchased in China, with which the Wa share a common border, transporting them to the Thai-Burma border through several checkpoints set up by the Burma Army has been an unsolvable problem, according to Wa sources.

http://www.shanland....bels&Itemid=301

"Thai police think.........." Quite possibly they had a re-think when M-79 grenades started flying around Bangkok.

"....investigators had yet to conclude...." In your mind does that mean there is no link?

Even if there is NO link to this batch, how does it alter the basic fact that they WERE used by the redshirts? What are you trying to prove?

I'm not trying to prove anything .As usual you go off frothing because I had the temerity to suggest there was another side to the "story" that was being pushed - i.e 600 M79's, it must be the reds. You need to reign your neck in a bit and think before posting.

To date we have one red/black shirt (depending whether you regard Sae Daengs right hand man a red shirt or a black shirt) in prison for 35 years having being found guilty of numerous M79 attacks. Whether it was the red shirts or black shirts or somebody else responsible for the rest is not known, unless of course you evidence to the contrary.

There's plenty of documentation of M79 attacks by the 'men in black' including video footage and articles by foreign journalists who were on the receiving end. It is patently obvious that most if not all M79 attacks were politically motivated.

Trying to defend this sort of thing just makes you look stupid.

[phiphidon]

There's plenty of documentation of M79 attacks by the 'men in black' including video footage and articles by foreign journalists who were on the receiving end. It is patently obvious that most if not all M79 attacks were politically motivated.

Trying to defend this sort of thing just makes you look stupid.

If you could just make one post without being rude it would help. It would also help if you read what was being said. First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive. I don't deny there is some minimal footage of what appears to be men in black firing M79's. I have not seen any clear evidence of red shirts using m79's. I do not deny some red shirts (probably guards) were armed.

I would say all the m79 attacks were politically motivated. I reserve judgement about whether they were all carried out by the red shirts or men in black.

[Moruya]

There's plenty of documentation of M79 attacks by the 'men in black' including video footage and articles by foreign journalists who were on the receiving end. It is patently obvious that most if not all M79 attacks were politically motivated.

Trying to defend this sort of thing just makes you look stupid.

If you could just make one post without being rude it would help. It would also help if you read what was being said. First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive. I don't deny there is some minimal footage of what appears to be men in black firing M79's. I have not seen any clear evidence of red shirts using m79's. I do not deny some red shirts (probably guards) were armed.

I would say all the m79 attacks were politically motivated. I reserve judgement about whether they were all carried out by the red shirts or men in black.

"First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive"

That's a rather naive statement.

[waza]

And as the police themselves said more than likely for export. No links to the red shirts ever found.

Thai police think the illegally made M79 grenade launcher parts seized in Ayutthaya on 13 March and more in the neighboring Samut Prakan on the next day are for the United Wa State Army (UWSA) that is currently at loggerheads with Burma’s ruling military junta over the Border Guard Force (BGF) deal, according to the news community in Bangkok.

The factory owner Cherdyod Jirawattanarak had reportedly admitted that he had already delivered over 1,000 of the parts to the arms traffickers. Police found 600 completed parts for the M79 grenade launchers. Chief of Police Region #1 Krissada Pankongchuen said his investigators had yet to conclude that the seizures were linked to the red shirt demonstrations that began on 13 March, the same day the seizure was made.

“But the huge quantity of the seizure indicates that they are likely to be more for export than for internal use,” a newsman quoted the police as saying.

Demand for arms and ammo have been on the rise since tensions between the Burma Army and the UWSA were on the rise since last year.

Though they are more easily purchased in China, with which the Wa share a common border, transporting them to the Thai-Burma border through several checkpoints set up by the Burma Army has been an unsolvable problem, according to Wa sources.

http://www.shanland....bels&Itemid=301

"Thai police think.........." Quite possibly they had a re-think when M-79 grenades started flying around Bangkok.

"....investigators had yet to conclude...." In your mind does that mean there is no link?

Even if there is NO link to this batch, how does it alter the basic fact that they WERE used by the redshirts? What are you trying to prove?

I'm not trying to prove anything .As usual you go off frothing because I had the temerity to suggest there was another side to the "story" that was being pushed - i.e 600 M79's, it must be the reds. You need to reign your neck in a bit and think before posting.

To date we have one red/black shirt (depending whether you regard Sae Daengs right hand man a red shirt or a black shirt) in prison for 35 years having being found guilty of numerous M79 attacks. Whether it was the red shirts or black shirts or somebody else responsible for the rest is not known, unless of course you evidence to the contrary.

and.....

Red Shirt Protests, Thailand Latest Developments.

During the clashes on Wednesday night, police seized a haul of weapons from a Red Shirt encampment in Don Muang, Bangkok. A police officer has since been arrested and confessed to supplying the weapons to his ‘clients’. The officer confessed to possessing 63 M79 grenades and a number of launchers, that were seized from a motorbike near the national memorial. The officer panicked upon approach to an air force checkpoint, and fled the scene. Rather kindly, he left behind his police ID for investigating officers, along with the motor bike and his stash of weapons.

On Friday night, an ex-police officer and one other suspect were arrested, confessing that they had been hired to carry out an RPG attack on the Temple of the Emerald Buddha. Reports suggest that the former border patrol officer’s wife was a Red Shirt Leader from Pattaya. He was alledgedly paid in the region of 500,000 THB to carry out the attack. A number of M67 grenades were found in the suspects car, upon examination they were found to be from the same batch as grenades used in eight separate attacks.

http://www.adventurebimbling.com/thailand/thailand_protests_microsite_rss_feed.html

Edited May 24, 2012 by waza

[OzMick]

There's plenty of documentation of M79 attacks by the 'men in black' including video footage and articles by foreign journalists who were on the receiving end. It is patently obvious that most if not all M79 attacks were politically motivated.

Trying to defend this sort of thing just makes you look stupid.

If you could just make one post without being rude it would help. It would also help if you read what was being said. First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive. I don't deny there is some minimal footage of what appears to be men in black firing M79's. I have not seen any clear evidence of red shirts using m79's. I do not deny some red shirts (probably guards) were armed.

I would say all the m79 attacks were politically motivated. I reserve judgement about whether they were all carried out by the red shirts or men in black.

"First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive"

That's a rather naive statement.

someone referred to this as "casually dropping in lies"

[Moruya]

There's plenty of documentation of M79 attacks by the 'men in black' including video footage and articles by foreign journalists who were on the receiving end. It is patently obvious that most if not all M79 attacks were politically motivated.

Trying to defend this sort of thing just makes you look stupid.

If you could just make one post without being rude it would help. It would also help if you read what was being said. First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive. I don't deny there is some minimal footage of what appears to be men in black firing M79's. I have not seen any clear evidence of red shirts using m79's. I do not deny some red shirts (probably guards) were armed.

I would say all the m79 attacks were politically motivated. I reserve judgement about whether they were all carried out by the red shirts or men in black.

"First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive"

That's a rather naive statement.

someone referred to this as "casually dropping in lies"

I know how Venn would have depicted it.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Thaivisa Connect App

[rubl]

There's plenty of documentation of M79 attacks by the 'men in black' including video footage and articles by foreign journalists who were on the receiving end. It is patently obvious that most if not all M79 attacks were politically motivated.

Trying to defend this sort of thing just makes you look stupid.

If you could just make one post without being rude it would help. It would also help if you read what was being said. First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive. I don't deny there is some minimal footage of what appears to be men in black firing M79's. I have not seen any clear evidence of red shirts using m79's. I do not deny some red shirts (probably guards) were armed.

I would say all the m79 attacks were politically motivated. I reserve judgement about whether they were all carried out by the red shirts or men in black.

"First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive"

That's a rather naive statement.

In another topic NN complains "I myself came several times under fire by soldiers, to the most part in situations where there were no armed Red Shirt militants anywhere." May be we should skip the term MiB and just refer to UDD militants ?

BTW phiphidon is right, if you wear a red shirt you obviously aren't a man in black v.v.

[OzMick]

If you could just make one post without being rude it would help. It would also help if you read what was being said. First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive. I don't deny there is some minimal footage of what appears to be men in black firing M79's. I have not seen any clear evidence of red shirts using m79's. I do not deny some red shirts (probably guards) were armed.

I would say all the m79 attacks were politically motivated. I reserve judgement about whether they were all carried out by the red shirts or men in black.

"First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive"

That's a rather naive statement.

someone referred to this as "casually dropping in lies"

I know how Venn would have depicted it.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Thaivisa Connect App

“Non-violence is not a garment to be put on and off at will. Its seat is in the heart, and it must be an inseparable part of our being.” Gandhi

Some think its as easy as changing your shirt.

Edited May 24, 2012 by OzMick

[rubl]

“Non-violence is not a garment to be put on and off at will. Its seat is in the heart, and it must be an inseparable part of our being.” Gandhi

Some think its as easy as changing your shirt.

Please stick to the topic, this is not about Pheu Thai party list MP and UDD leader k. Jatuporn

[phiphidon]

and.....

Red Shirt Protests, Thailand Latest Developments.

During the clashes on Wednesday night, police seized a haul of weapons from a Red Shirt encampment in Don Muang, Bangkok. A police officer has since been arrested and confessed to supplying the weapons to his ‘clients’. The officer confessed to possessing 63 M79 grenades and a number of launchers, that were seized from a motorbike near the national memorial. The officer panicked upon approach to an air force checkpoint, and fled the scene. Rather kindly, he left behind his police ID for investigating officers, along with the motor bike and his stash of weapons.

On Friday night, an ex-police officer and one other suspect were arrested, confessing that they had been hired to carry out an RPG attack on the Temple of the Emerald Buddha. Reports suggest that the former border patrol officer’s wife was a Red Shirt Leader from Pattaya. He was alledgedly paid in the region of 500,000 THB to carry out the attack. A number of M67 grenades were found in the suspects car, upon examination they were found to be from the same batch as grenades used in eight separate attacks.

http://www.adventure...e_rss_feed.html

Quoted from the Adventure Bimbling Blog site, undated unattributed. A slightly more "newsworthy" source, The Nation states

The Criminal Court Tuesday sentenced a former policeman from Sa Kaew to 38 years in jail after convicting him of firing an RPG rocket at the headquarters of the Defence Ministry last year.

http://nationmultimedia.com/politics/Ex-cop-jailed-38-years-for-firing-RPG-rocket-at-De-30171746.html

The emerald buddha story originated from DSI Tharit and was only ever propaganda obviously used to good effect on you at least. By the way, the accomplice "caught" in your "emerald buddha" tale was never caught and is still on the run.

As far as the police officer and his 63 M79 grenades go - according to the other paper under a (in?) tense interrogation he denied any involvement with previous bombing attacks or any link to the UDD.

[phiphidon]

There's plenty of documentation of M79 attacks by the 'men in black' including video footage and articles by foreign journalists who were on the receiving end. It is patently obvious that most if not all M79 attacks were politically motivated.

Trying to defend this sort of thing just makes you look stupid.

If you could just make one post without being rude it would help. It would also help if you read what was being said. First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive. I don't deny there is some minimal footage of what appears to be men in black firing M79's. I have not seen any clear evidence of red shirts using m79's. I do not deny some red shirts (probably guards) were armed.

I would say all the m79 attacks were politically motivated. I reserve judgement about whether they were all carried out by the red shirts or men in black.

"First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive"

That's a rather naive statement.

someone referred to this as "casually dropping in lies"

Prove it's a lie or keep quite , it's simple.

[rubl]

Quoted from the Adventure Bimbling Blog site, undated unattributed. A slightly more "newsworthy" source, The Nation states

The Criminal Court Tuesday sentenced a former policeman from Sa Kaew to 38 years in jail after convicting him of firing an RPG rocket at the headquarters of the Defence Ministry last year.

http://nationmultime...e-30171746.html

The emerald buddha story originated from DSI Tharit and was only ever propaganda obviously used to good effect on you at least. By the way, the accomplice "caught" in your "emerald buddha" tale was never caught and is still on the run.

As far as the police officer and his 63 M79 grenades go - according to the other paper under a (in?) tense interrogation he denied any involvement with previous bombing attacks or any link to the UDD.

Just to clarify as it may not be that obvious for some readers here. For a while there were rumours that Pol Lance Corporal Banthit Sitthithoom had targetted Wat Phra Kaew, but hit the Defence Ministry instead. Those rumour and accusations were dropped later.

PS ask the member with the high-level Thai gossip link for more info

Edited May 24, 2012 by rubl

[waza]

and.....

Red Shirt Protests, Thailand Latest Developments.

During the clashes on Wednesday night, police seized a haul of weapons from a Red Shirt encampment in Don Muang, Bangkok. A police officer has since been arrested and confessed to supplying the weapons to his ‘clients’. The officer confessed to possessing 63 M79 grenades and a number of launchers, that were seized from a motorbike near the national memorial. The officer panicked upon approach to an air force checkpoint, and fled the scene. Rather kindly, he left behind his police ID for investigating officers, along with the motor bike and his stash of weapons.

On Friday night, an ex-police officer and one other suspect were arrested, confessing that they had been hired to carry out an RPG attack on the Temple of the Emerald Buddha. Reports suggest that the former border patrol officer’s wife was a Red Shirt Leader from Pattaya. He was alledgedly paid in the region of 500,000 THB to carry out the attack. A number of M67 grenades were found in the suspects car, upon examination they were found to be from the same batch as grenades used in eight separate attacks.

http://www.adventure...e_rss_feed.html

Quoted from the Adventure Bimbling Blog site, undated unattributed. A slightly more "newsworthy" source, The Nation states

The Criminal Court Tuesday sentenced a former policeman from Sa Kaew to 38 years in jail after convicting him of firing an RPG rocket at the headquarters of the Defence Ministry last year.

http://nationmultime...e-30171746.html

The emerald buddha story originated from DSI Tharit and was only ever propaganda obviously used to good effect on you at least. By the way, the accomplice "caught" in your "emerald buddha" tale was never caught and is still on the run.

As far as the police officer and his 63 M79 grenades go - according to the other paper under a (in?) tense interrogation he denied any involvement with previous bombing attacks or any link to the UDD.

True but you cant quote the other paper so you have to use a reference site, and I agree the BIB was a gun runner not a bomber. But he was delivering them to Red Shirts at Don Muang, somewhere where I have never heard the Ronins were active.

[phiphidon]

There's plenty of documentation of M79 attacks by the 'men in black' including video footage and articles by foreign journalists who were on the receiving end. It is patently obvious that most if not all M79 attacks were politically motivated.

Trying to defend this sort of thing just makes you look stupid.

If you could just make one post without being rude it would help. It would also help if you read what was being said. First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive. I don't deny there is some minimal footage of what appears to be men in black firing M79's. I have not seen any clear evidence of red shirts using m79's. I do not deny some red shirts (probably guards) were armed.

I would say all the m79 attacks were politically motivated. I reserve judgement about whether they were all carried out by the red shirts or men in black.

"First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive"

That's a rather naive statement.

In another topic NN complains "I myself came several times under fire by soldiers, to the most part in situations where there were no armed Red Shirt militants anywhere." May be we should skip the term MiB and just refer to UDD militants ?

BTW phiphidon is right, if you wear a red shirt you obviously aren't a man in black v.v.

Well you could call the men in black UDD militants and you'd be half right or half wrong according to the descent into chaos which people love to quote on here. They say the men in black had nothing to do with the UDD and then say they were - I suppose it's called a balanced viewpoint.

[gand]

There's plenty of documentation of M79 attacks by the 'men in black' including video footage and articles by foreign journalists who were on the receiving end. It is patently obvious that most if not all M79 attacks were politically motivated.

Trying to defend this sort of thing just makes you look stupid.

If you could just make one post without being rude it would help. It would also help if you read what was being said. First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive. I don't deny there is some minimal footage of what appears to be men in black firing M79's. I have not seen any clear evidence of red shirts using m79's. I do not deny some red shirts (probably guards) were armed.

I would say all the m79 attacks were politically motivated. I reserve judgement about whether they were all carried out by the red shirts or men in black.

"First of all red shirts and "men in black" are mutually exclusive"

That's a rather naive statement.

It sure is.

2 journalists describe that they saw armed protestors, so let's hear no more about the peaceful protest.

"They had AR-15s, TAR-21s, M16s, AK-47s" "They attacked soldiers with AK-47 and HK-33 assault rifles, and M79 grenade launchers."

http://www.hrw.org/n...98399/section/5

A journalist, who spent several days together with a group of armed militants at the Ratchaprasong protest camp, described to Human Rights Watch his experience with the Black Shirts:

The day I met up with the group, they were near Lumphini Park and the Rama IV [road] junction, living in a tent. I was not allowed to photograph them. I met about 17 or 18 of them, but they said they were part of a group of 30. They had more people helping them, helpers and their own medics. They were all ex-military, and some of them were still on active duty. Some of them were paratroopers, and at least one was from the Navy. They had AR-15s, TAR-21s, M16s, AK-47s [military assault rifles], but I didn’t see them with M79s [grenade launchers]. They told me that their job was to protect the Red Shirt protesters, but their real job was to terrorize the soldiers.

[T]hese guys were fearless. They operated mostly at night, but sometimes also during the day. They went out in small teams [to confront the army].…

They didn’t use walkie-talkies, just mobile phones and runners [to deliver messages]. I saw no interaction with the Red Shirt leaders. But these guys were contacted by someone, someone recruited them to come, I have no idea who. Someone provided them with weapons…. They rationed their bullets—when they went out they had 30 bullets [each].

They weren’t really “black” shirts—they were sometimes in green military uniforms and others dressed like Red Shirt protesters. They didn’t have any relationship with the Red Guards, and weren’t interested in dealing with the Red Shirt leaders.… They took their work very seriously. The guys I met, they knew how to move and shoot. They also had experience handling explosives.… The Black Shirts didn’t come to try and take territory—they shoot and then they leave, they hit [the soldiers] and retreat.

A Thai journalist stationed near Bon Kai junction said the Black Shirt militants he encountered during the May 17-19 clashes were well-armed, appeared to be trained in military tactics, and seemed to have a separate command line from the Red Shirt Guards:

From what I saw, the Black Shirt militants and the Red Shirt protesters were fighting alongside each other in the areas around Bon Kai junction. But they did not share the same command line. The Red Shirts seemed to be driven by anger as they saw soldiers moving in and opening fire at the protesters. They burned tires and used slingshots to shoot metal bolts, rocks, and fire crackers at soldiers. They also tried to use petrol bombs and homemade rockets, made of PVC [durable plastic] and metal pipes, to attack soldiers. But the aim of their rockets was not accurate enough to hit soldier bunkers and cause any serious damage. Some of the Red Shirts went out on foot and motorcycles to challenge soldiers to come out from their bunkers and fight openly. But they had to dash back behind the barricades when soldiers shot them with rubber bullets and live rounds. This cat-and-mouse game went on all day. I only saw two of the Red Shirts firing at soldiers with revolver pistols.

The Black Shirts, on the other hand, were well armed. They attacked soldiers with AK-47 and HK-33 assault rifles, and M79 grenade launchers. They were also very cautious when they moved around, using smoke as their cover. They appeared to benefit from the havoc created by the Red Shirts, which distracted soldiers as well. The Black Shirts did not stay in one spot for too long. They moved around, took their positions, opened fire, and then retreated. The way they operated reminded me of those with military training. Some of the Black Shirts used walkie-talkies, while others use mobile phones, to communicate with each other. Their operations seemed to be coordinated by a man who always had sunglasses on. At one point, I heard him giving orders to the Black Shirts to fire M79 grenades at the bunkers and sniper posts of soldiers. But when I asked the Black Shirts about that man, they told me I should not raise that question again if I want to stay behind their line. The Red Shirts that I talked to said they did not know who that man was either. Nevertheless, they believed that the Black Shirts were there to protect them and help them fight more effectively.

[hansgruber]

Unfortunately Taksin thinks he can return to his former glory days, but he is deluding himself. The smart man would have accepted his situation and moved on. If this whitewash ever happens it will be the terrible travesty; it will say to the world that one rich man can buy way out and make people think Thailand has no ethics or principals. A great miscarriage of justice?

A great miscarriage of lost face.

[phiphidon]

and.....

Red Shirt Protests, Thailand Latest Developments.

During the clashes on Wednesday night, police seized a haul of weapons from a Red Shirt encampment in Don Muang, Bangkok. A police officer has since been arrested and confessed to supplying the weapons to his ‘clients’. The officer confessed to possessing 63 M79 grenades and a number of launchers, that were seized from a motorbike near the national memorial. The officer panicked upon approach to an air force checkpoint, and fled the scene. Rather kindly, he left behind his police ID for investigating officers, along with the motor bike and his stash of weapons.

On Friday night, an ex-police officer and one other suspect were arrested, confessing that they had been hired to carry out an RPG attack on the Temple of the Emerald Buddha. Reports suggest that the former border patrol officer’s wife was a Red Shirt Leader from Pattaya. He was alledgedly paid in the region of 500,000 THB to carry out the attack. A number of M67 grenades were found in the suspects car, upon examination they were found to be from the same batch as grenades used in eight separate attacks.

http://www.adventure...e_rss_feed.html

Quoted from the Adventure Bimbling Blog site, undated unattributed. A slightly more "newsworthy" source, The Nation states

The Criminal Court Tuesday sentenced a former policeman from Sa Kaew to 38 years in jail after convicting him of firing an RPG rocket at the headquarters of the Defence Ministry last year.

http://nationmultime...e-30171746.html

The emerald buddha story originated from DSI Tharit and was only ever propaganda obviously used to good effect on you at least. By the way, the accomplice "caught" in your "emerald buddha" tale was never caught and is still on the run.

As far as the police officer and his 63 M79 grenades go - according to the other paper under a (in?) tense interrogation he denied any involvement with previous bombing attacks or any link to the UDD.

True but you cant quote the other paper so you have to use a reference site, and I agree the BIB was a gun runner not a bomber. But he was delivering them to Red Shirts at Don Muang, somewhere where I have never heard the Ronins were active.

He was delivering to whom? He didn't impart any information on that according the paper. Then again, there was that rather impressive display of bright shiny ordinance that was "discovered in the wat", looked like it had just come straight out of stores .

Edited May 24, 2012 by phiphidon

[gand]

Unfortunately Taksin thinks he can return to his former glory days, but he is deluding himself. The smart man would have accepted his situation and moved on. If this whitewash ever happens it will be the terrible travesty; it will say to the world that one rich man can buy way out and make people think Thailand has no ethics or principals. A great miscarriage of justice?

A great miscarriage of lost face.

Do you have to have face, to lose face?

[SomTumTiger]

He was delivering to whom? He didn't impart any information on that according the paper. Then again, there was that rather impressive display of bright shiny ordinance that was "discovered in the wat", looked like it had just come straight out of stores .

What is it about Thaksin that you admire so much Phi. The passion with which you defend him is admirable, but I can't help but wonder why you feel this way.

[bigbamboo]

Unfortunately Taksin thinks he can return to his former glory days, but he is deluding himself. The smart man would have accepted his situation and moved on. If this whitewash ever happens it will be the terrible travesty; it will say to the world that one rich man can buy way out and make people think Thailand has no ethics or principals. A great miscarriage of justice?

A great miscarriage of lost face.

Do you have to have face, to lose face?

If the face is square it's harder to lose. Can't just roll away.