Wife Is Owner Of The House, Area Is Owned By Aunt -> Blackmail

[vongduern2011]

Hi all,

I know that this might be a case for a lawyer.

But maybe somebody has been in a similar situation or knows of anybody in a similar situation.

Here is the case:

My wife made a new, small house in Isaan.

She has the "Chanot Tee Din" for the area the house stands on in her possession.

On the chanot is a remark that the area is not to be sold within the first 10 years after "registration". 2 of these 10 years are already over.

The problem: The name on the chanot is not my wife's name but her aunts name (same last name).

Therefore I assume that the we have the situation that my wife owns the house and her aunt owns the area.

From what my wife told me her aunt never paid for the area. She is on the chanot because she was the only one in the family at hand when it came to "taking over" the land which was previously officially owned by nobody but always being "inhabited" by my wife's family.

And now, what a surprise: suddenly the aunt wants to have money from my wife (though the aunt herself never paid anything for the area).

The aunts says if you don't pay then I charge you for stealing the chanot and force you to go away from the area which - according to my wife - leaves her with the only option of destroying the house in order to not give it to the aunt.

If you have a family like that you don't need any other enemies.

So, my wife wants to give money to the aunt and at the same time make a contract with her - stating that the aunt is not demanding anything else and that after the 10 year "speculation period" the area finally will be my wife's area.

What do you think about this blackmail?

Should she pay?

Is the aunt right that she can do practically everything with the area that she wants - including to tear down the house (or even taking it over)?

Is a contract between my wife and her aunt really legally binding? Or do you have to do something like this on the back of the chanot?

Any help / comment is appreciated.

Thanks a lot

[TommoPhysicist]

The Thai government assigns untitled land to those who have traditionally lived there.

In this case the Aunt. The land is for local people to live on, in this case the aunt, the government prohibit sale to protect the aunt.

Some villagers do dodgy deals to buy and sell this protected land 'unofficially' between them, they shouldn't do it, against the law.

It has been known in some cases a wife and relative get together to squeeze some cash out of a daft foreigner.

Don't give wife or aunt any cash for this land, no sale or binding contract can be made on this land for another 8 years.

Your wife can't buy it, the aunt can't sell it.

If the government finds out a bogus 'sale/contract' has been made before the ten years is up (ie someone in the village complains), the government can and will take the land back and reassign the land to a more trustworthy local person.

Edited May 24, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[vongduern2011]

Thank you TommoPhysicist for your quick reply.

This is interesting. If I understand you right you say that any agreement or contract made between my wife and her aunt regarding the area is not valid or even illegal?

Well, I know since the aunt's name is on the chanot she is the legal owner of the area. That was a stupid move two years ago. My wife told me that she and her mother have been in Bangkok. But the chanot / contract had to be signed immediately if they wanted to secure the area. The only person of the family in the village (who they trusted at that time) was the aunt. So she signed but she never paid. My wife paid. Dumb move. But my wife told me they had to do it immediately or somebody else would have taken the land. Of course I cannot verify this story.

But then again ... Is there anything the aunt can do the house?

Can the aunt chase off my wife's mother who lives in the house?

Can she even take over the house since the house (owned by my wife) is on the area (owned by the aunt).

Or can the aunt demand that the house has to be destroyed saying that she wants HER area?

The fact you state that the aunt cannot sell the land does not protect my wife's house and the mother inside? Or does it?

Thank you so much for your help. I really appreciate that

[TommoPhysicist]

If the house was registered in your wifes name and the house book is in her name, she can demolish/remove the building.

Village land is assigned by the head man, then they MUCH LATER issue a chanote (with restrictions, can't sell for ten years).

I find it hard to believe the land was assigned to the Aunt and a chanote issued at the same time, that's not the way it works.

My wife was assigned 30 rai last year, she went to sign the headman's book, at a time convenient to her (about a two month window). In the next 2-10 years a chanote will be made in her name. Then she will have to sign at the land office.

Your wifes story about the aunt registering for her doesn't sound credible, her attempting to illegally buy land from the aunt does. Your wife is unlikely to tell the truth, if it makes her look stupid, 'face' is important, especially between husband and wife. She will be telling you whatever story makes her look best in this bad situation. In this case the 'I was deceived by a dishonest aunt' story.

Edited May 24, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[vongduern2011]

Thanks again.

As I said I cannot verify the whole story about how the chanot was obtained at all. But I know the aunt. And for me it is hard to believe that this aunt ever had more than 500 Baht in her pocket. So it is hard to believe for me that the aunt had the money to buy or register the area. So, what I believe is, that the aunt did not pay anything.

Nevertheless ....

The situation is as it is. And it sucks for my wife.

If there is no legal or binding way to make some kind of contract between wife and aunt then the most urgent questions still are:

Is there anything the aunt can do the house (the house is registered in my wife's name and she is also in the house book)?

Can the aunt chase off my wife's mother who lives in the house?

Can she even take over the house since the house (owned by my wife) is on the area (owned by the aunt).

Or can the aunt demand that the house has to be destroyed saying that she wants HER area?

Is there any kind of protection for wife's house and the mother inside?

Do you anything about this too?

Thanks a lot

[TommoPhysicist]

Village land is handed out free of charge to those who traditionally lived and worked the land. The Aunt paid nothing.

If your wife owned the house, she would own the house book (aka JaoBaan and not just be a name in it), so it looks like the house is not hers either.

There is nothing you can do IMHO.

Building a house on someone else's land is never a good idea.

If mother was living there, one wonders why the land was not in her name?

Edited May 24, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[vongduern2011]

Thanks again.

Maybe I have expressed that wrong. My wife owns the house book.

From my understanding (which does not have to match Thai understanding ;-) ) it should be possible to legally make a kind of contract which grants my wife and/or her mama the right to live on that area - some kind of "easement", "right to use" (I don't know the legal term for that in English).

This contract would not contradict the prohibition of sale of the area. Nobody would sell the land but my wife / her mama would get some protection of her house / home.

Or is this not possible in Thailand?

[thequietman]

you are being fleeced.

both parties were aware of the situation, both your wife and the aunt.

if you pay up you are a fool.

I have experience of this,(neighbour) it happens quite a bit to unsuspecting farangs.

Be careful out there.

[vongduern2011]

For me the financial loss would be very small.

Neither I live in this house nor I intend to do so.

But this would be a catastrophe for my wife - and that way of course would affect me immensely on a non-financial level.

[transam]

For me the financial loss would be very small.

Neither I live in this house nor I intend to do so.

But this would be a catastrophe for my wife - and that way of course would affect me immensely on a non-financial level.

Take the above advice and trust KNOW ONE, sounds harsh but some here have seen it all.

[TommoPhysicist]

Let me try and explain more clearly.

The ten year restricit on the chanote is there to prevent this situation occuring.

The land was assigned for locals to use, not your wife, she wasn't living there at the time, else she woild have been assigned the land in her name.

She wasn't there, so she can't use the land.

Her mother wasn't there so she cam't use the land their either.

This is local land for local residents use ONLY.

If you could come to a deal for the land, then so could all the other land grabbers.

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Thaivisa Connect App

[vongduern2011]

I absolutely appreciate your advices.

But I don't worry about any financial issue right now.

I worry about my wife, her mother and the house.

My major question is if there is any way to protect the house and the mother inside - maybe by the means of some LEGAL contract to grant them the right to use the area or whatsoever.

Thank you

[TommoPhysicist]

If the money means little to you, why not buy mother a house on unrestricted land. Then yoi won't be stealing from the locals and forcing them out of the ater.

Sent from my GT-P1000 using Thaivisa Connect App

[vongduern2011]

The land was assigned for locals to use, not your wife, she wasn't living there at the time, else she woild have been assigned the land in her name.

She wasn't there, so she can't use the land.

Her mother wasn't there so she cam't use the land their either.

This is local land for local residents use ONLY.

If you could come to a deal for the land, then so could all the other land grabbers.

I appreciate the clarification.

My wife's mother has been living there for the most time of her life - with a some year break.

Her husband died there, grandparents lived there too.

My wife has always been registered there though she has been staying in Bangkok for a while to attend university.

So, I would call them locals. I have translated copies of the "house register" and "family register" (sorry, I don't know how they are called in English).

The area we are talking about has been part of a rice field before.

[TommoPhysicist]

Even worse you have built on agricultural land, which is prohibited.

Anyone breaking the rules in the 10 years can lose all their land.

Mother should have made the effort to return when the land was handed out.

Wife should have returned when the land was handed out.

They didn't, and by not returning demonstrated to the authorities they were both no longer entitled to live on government assigned land.How much was the return bus fare from BK to Nakon Nowhere ...... 600bht?

Edited May 24, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[transam]

Even worse you have built on agricultural land, which is prohibited.

Mother should have made the effort to return when the land was handed out.

Wife should have returned when the land was handed out.

They didn't, and by not returning demonstrated to the authorities they were both no longer entitled to live on government assigned land.

How much was the return bus fare from BK to Nakon Nowhere ...... 600bht?

Correct.

[vongduern2011]

If the money means little to you, why not buy mother a house on unrestricted land. Then yoi won't be stealing from the locals and forcing them out of the ater.

Now, I am a little bit suprised.

I am sorry, as you can see English is not my mother language. So maybe sometimes my English can be misunderstood a little bit.

I did not want to say that money means little to me. I am just a normal average guy ;-). Not poor and not rich. I don't have a big bank account or a Mercedes. But enough for food and the occasional beer ;-) Just average.

All I said was that my financial loss would be very small if something happenend to the house.

At the same time I said that the emotional loss for my wife and her mother would be immense - which of course would also affect my feelings.

So, that's why I said that my worries regard the wellbeing of my wife in the first place and not the money.

The aunt never intended to use the area and she never had the money to make a house or anything to live in. She does not have a job or anything like that. But she has been staying in my wife's house together with my wife's mother on a regular basis - for free of course.

Now this aunt suddenly wants to have some money and demands this from my wife or .. otherwise threatens to call the police, take away the house or whatever.

So, I never intended to steal anything from anybody. I don't know how you got this impression. As a farang for me it would be impossible to own land anyway. And I don't intend to do so. The aunt did not have anything to do with the construction of the house nor did she help or was present. She never intended to use this area.

Again, I just would like to know how it would be possible to secure the house and the mother inside for the next 8 years. And after the 8 years (when the 10 years deadline) is over there should be talks about buying the land from the aunt (not by me but by my wife). Is there anything about stealing in it?

Again, unless the aunt wins the big lottery she will never have the means to construct her own house. She had her benefits from staying in my wife's house for free. But this is Thailand. And now the aunt has only money in the eyes. If the house has to be destroyed then the aunt loses her "safe garden" too. And she would have to wait for 8 more years to sell the area and see some money anyway. So makes no sense to me.

[vongduern2011]

Even worse you have built on agricultural land, which is prohibited.

Anyone breaking the rules in the 10 years can lose all their land.

Mother should have made the effort to return when the land was handed out.

Wife should have returned when the land was handed out.

They didn't, and by not returning demonstrated to the authorities they were both no longer entitled to live on government assigned land.How much was the return bus fare from BK to Nakon Nowhere ...... 600bht?

Just to clarify this: I (myself) did not build anything. My wife did.

I am just trying to get some insight and help from you guys.

When constructing a house don't you need the permission of the "government" to do so?

This is a very small area and I can see the official "measurement" on the chanot.

I would certainly assume that the purpose of the area has been changed from rice field to residential. I guess this is also in Thailand a normal procedure.

And yes, I cannot understand too why they did not make the effort to go to the village when they handed out the area. I have no idea. All I know is that is was very urgent matter to take over this land.

I like your "Nakon Nowhere" ;-)

[TommoPhysicist]

Agricultural land is for agricultural use by farmers that live in the area.

If you build a house on farm land, then a farmer can't ever farm that land again.

You have big money compared to locals, wife working in BK has big money compared to locals.

The Thai government is trying to stop people like you, your wife, and everyone else from Bangkok developing the countryside.

It's farm land for farmers, you aren't a farmer, she isn't a farmer.

Aunt doesn't need a concrete house built with 'out of town money', she can live in a shed made from sticks like all the other locals.

Positive suggestion (for person with limited money)

Give aunt 3k a month 'pension' for life on condition she registers a will at the local Amphur office, leaving property to wife.

She changes the will or turfs mum out, she loses the income.

Edited May 24, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[vongduern2011]

But my wife got the permission the construct the house. Strange. Why would the goverment want people like me (whatever that means) to stay away and on the other hand give my wife the permission to build a house on a rice field?

I am aware that a Farang or a Farang's wife is always seen as people having big money. I understand that.

But we don't live there. The house always was intended to be a safe place to live for my wife's mother in the first place and other members of the family.

The mother used to live in shack before - lacking water and electricity. She gets a monthly pension of 1000 Baht.

I don't live in Bangkok anymore. My wife did not finish her university studies and therefore cannot expect a high salary and does actually currently not get a much higher salary than somebody working at 7-eleven for example. These things are well known in the village and by the aunt.

So, I don't know where this slight hostility in this thread is coming from.

As I see that my wife made a house to give her mom a good rest of her life. And the rest of the family (including the aunt) benefitted from this too by always being welcome in the house and staying there whenever there was need. There would be space on the land to make a small shack too if the aunt wants that. But then again why not be in peace with the family and stay together in the house?

Positive suggestion (for person with limited money)

Give aunt 3k a month 'pension' for life on condition she registers a will at the local Amphur office, leaving property to wife.

She changes the will or turfs mum out, she loses the income.

Thanks for that. This is the kind of information I was hoping for.

Really guys, I am a little bit baffled by the hostility or angry mood here.

Why is the government giving away a small area (we are talking of 70 square meters) here of former rice field with direct connection to the street and houses next to if not with the idea of this area to be residential.

And if it never was intended to be residential why did the government allow to construction of the house and the residential development with water and electricity?

[transam]

You may look at it as hostility BUT you are looking for a happy answer and perhaps there isn't one. You asked a question and those who understand a bit about LOS stuff have replied.

[gamini]

You may look at it as hostility BUT you are looking for a happy answer and perhaps there isn't one. You asked a question and those who understand a bit about LOS stuff have replied.

Write it off. Unless you want to spend millions on lawyers fees. This is Thailand.

[vongduern2011]

Possible.

I guess everybody is looking for a happy answer.

I just would like to know who benefits from destroying a nice, small house that is a home to an old mother and some other family members - including the aunt sometimes and also the aunt's daugther with her newborn. As I told you this house really is a kind of safe haven to many family members.

The mother has to go back in a shack, the aunt too, and the aunt's daugther with her baby too.

Makes no sense to me. I know that many thais can handle poor conditions with great dignity. But when having the choice of staying in a solid house with TV and hong nam for most of them the choice is easy - as for farang too.

So, the aunt is up for some quick money? For what price. She does not own the house. So I guess she cannot just take it over. I don't know. Maybe she can demand that the house has to be destroyed. And then? The aunt cannot stay in the house anymore, her daughter with the baby cannot stay there anymore. Yes maybe she can make her own shack there. Though from knowing her I doubt that. The land will go back to nature.

And here again I am just looking for some input on how to handle this situation for the next 8 years.

And what is so wrong about talking with the aunt about purchasing the land from her after the 10 year deadline?

The law allows says as I understand. Nothing wrong here.

[TommoPhysicist]

Aunt can tell mum to leave, up to you if you destroy the house, if you don't she can live in it.

If aunt is already living in the house, I suspect you can't remove or destroy it either.

Land handed out in this was is for a specific use only, locals, locals who were living there when the land was handed out.

Not mum, not your wife.

Not much to do with anti-foreigner, more to do with rich city folk getting their mitts on all the land they can.

After 20 years of the game your wife is playing, the poor farmers will have nowhere left to live.

Your misses and mum is squeezing the poor out.

No-body sees your misses as poor, she has a rich foreigner to provide for all, she won the lottery and didn't need to complete her degree.

We aren't hostile towards you, we are hostile to the mis-appropriation of government land, your wife is attempting.

Wife doesn't need free land, mum doesn't need free land, you have enough money to buy unrestricted land.

Edited May 24, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[vongduern2011]

I am sorry but I still don't understand your point.

I really try to open my mind for that but I am stll having difficulties to understand what you mean by "game played by my wife".

What game is that?

I guess the problem is that I don't know enough about the way the land was obtained. This makes it difficult for me to understand who has a "right" on it.

Nobody has been living on this special part of land before. But the whole area was "inhabited" by my wife's family which of course includes her mom and her aunt. This is one family.

So please correct me now. I am just trying to put the things together.

Now as I understand it the government came to a point where they gave the people the possibility to officially own the land they have been living on long time.

The government divides some land into smaller sections and measures this land manually and by GPS and offers chanots.

Let's assume for a moment my wife's story is correct.

My wife is at university in Bankgok. Her mom has been there to visit.

The aunt is in the village. My wife's mom calls her to send the aunt to obtain a chanot.

That would mean that the only difference between the aunt and my wife's mother at this point was that aunt was there and sent to go there and mom was not there.

If the whole family was living in this area together what would the aunt give an advantage over mom?

Who is entitled to get this area? Does the government say: this land has been inhabited by family XYZ. So if you want to own this land you need the same last name? That would match.

Usually the aunt spent most of her time at her girlfriend's house in the next city. She did not care too much about the others and she certainly does not care about her daughter and baby grandchild of 5 months at the moment. If she finds some money she brings it to her girlfriend not to the daughter. Sometimes she is helping at the market but usually she is not doing anything.

Then my wife came and had the idea of making a house for mom (who like most of the rest of the family lived in a poor shack. My wife lived in this shack too when she came to visit) and other family members on this very area.

She certainly obtained some kind of permission to construct a house on this area from some government institution in her name.( Who issues the house book?)

So where is the mis-appropriation of land?

And now there is a small house and many people of the family - including the aunt - used to enjoy sitting together there eating and watching satellite TV and getting shelter when the rain came.

Where is the game or bad intent on the side of my wife or her mom?

I still don't get that.

After 20 years of the game your wife is playing, the poor farmers will have nowhere left to live.

Your misses and mum is squeezing the poor out.

If the land was inhabited by her family before anyway and now a small part of it serves as a place to live for many members of the same family then that is where they live. How is my wife or her mom squeezing the poor out. And who are the poor in this special case? (By the way: Mom gets 1000 Baht pension per month. I would call that poor)

Wife doesn't need free land, mum doesn't need free land, you have enough money to buy unrestricted land.

So if I understand you right ... if my wife had never met me than she would have been welcome to get some free land from the area her family has been living on long time? But by marrying me she lost this moral right. The same right the aunt still has because she is doing nothing in her life and therefore belongs to the poor people you are talking about? And how should mom buy "unrestricted" land? 1000 baht times 12. How many years would that take?

And as a note: I don't have the money to buy any land and I certainly, certainly don't have the money to build a house over there.

It seems as if this persistant image of the farang as an everlasting ATM is not only in the heads of the Thai people ;-)

So, don't get me wrong here. I am really trying to understand what is going on and I cannot see my wife or her mom doing anything bad. I can see them doing mistakes and dumb moves. But nothing bad. Right now there is a win-win situation for all. If my wife did not build the house then let's assume the 70 square metres as a paddy field could have brought the family 1000 baht of rice income per year (of course I don't know I just assume it is not too much). I would say having a safe house to stay in is not a bad thing for the family.

[cheeryble]

I guess the problem is that I don't know enough about the way the land was obtained. This makes it difficult for me to understand who has a "right" on it.

Nobody has been living on this special part of land before. But the whole area was "inhabited" by my wife's family which of course includes her mom and her aunt. This is one family.

So please correct me now. I am just trying to put the things together.

Now as I understand it the government came to a point where they gave the people the possibility to officially own the land they have been living on long time.

The government divides some land into smaller sections and measures this land manually and by GPS and offers chanots.

Let's assume for a moment my wife's story is correct.

My wife is at university in Bankgok. Her mom has been there to visit.

The aunt is in the village. My wife's mom calls her to send the aunt to obtain a chanot.

That would mean that the only difference between the aunt and my wife's mother at this point was that aunt was there and sent to go there and mom was not there.

If the whole family was living in this area together what would the aunt give an advantage over mom?

Who is entitled to get this area? Does the government say: this land has been inhabited by family XYZ. So if you want to own this land you need the same last name? That would match.

Usually the aunt spent most of her time at her girlfriend's house in the next city.

If what you say is true your wife or her mother may have a case against the aunt.

You have to decide if you're willing to take it up, either at the LO or the court.

Trouble is to decide on making a case you have to rely on the information your wife and her mother tell you.....something I wouldn't like to be relying on.

If not, I'd not give the aunt a penny. It would be a highly antisocial gesture in a small village to kick out her kin.

Let her do it if she wants and reap the social repercussions.

A better way may be to go to the Puyay Baan and explain to him. Generally the village people will do what he tells them. If you can get him sympathetic to you and dissociate yourself from being a source of funds ( as he will always suggest the middle path and you're a walking cash dispenser..."why don't you offer her a bit?")

Edited May 24, 2012 by cheeryble

[rizla]

Much a doo about nothing...Just tell your MIL to sit tight, the aunt wont do nothing (she hasn`t got the funds, as you said) and her time will come when she needs help.....just wait it out..

[theblether]

Much a doo about nothing...Just tell your MIL to sit tight, the aunt wont do nothing (she hasn`t got the funds, as you said) and her time will come when she needs help.....just wait it out..

What would happen if the Aunt passed away during the next 8 years?........and no I'm not suggesting a mysterious accident.

[TommoPhysicist]

The process of land distribution takes years, the allocation is done by the village headman.

Wife and mum weren't there for quite a while, not just one day as you seem to think.

Almost everyone living in Bangkok came from a small village, how long before they lose local residency?

I don't know, but mum and wife appear to have been gone for that long.

Another fairly common alternative is that aunt, mum and wife are all the best of friends and have got concocted this story to scam some money out of you.

How accurate is this scenario

Village girl goes to Bk to 'get degree', comes back to village with no degree but much older foreigner husband.

Edited May 25, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[xylophone]

Pay a little and go to see a local lawyer, and take all of the paperwork with you as well as another farang who understands Thai. Surely that's the only way that this is going to be sorted out satisfactorily, despite the excellent help of the posters above, especially TommoPhysicist who seems to be most knowledgeable on the subject.