Business Deal Going Bad?

[soi41]

just get out you have no chance and forget doing any business here ever if it involves a Thai now I know people who have made a business work but only when they have bought premises not rented all others in end got screwed one way or another> TIT no law will protect you but if you want to think otherwise feel free to do so. If you can get 1/2 what you paid youll be lucky

What a lot of BS. Been doing business for 10 years, one of the places all 10 years with the same Thai landlord. No keymoney, fair rent. Rentrenewal every 3 years with a raise of 5-6%. As her daughter is doing business in the same property, the landlord knows we are doing well, but never any attempts from her side to squeze us. On the other hand, she sees my once a year, when I am paying the rent. She has been very fair to us, so in return we never bother her with minor repairs, but get it fixed ourselves. Maybe we have been lucky, or maybe we have the right attitude ??

[SteveLynch]

@letitbe

I would like to agree with you but ,then we would be both wrong

Your post showsthat you have a limited knowledge of what you speak about ,you even spell farang wrong well done ,17 years here was it .

The people that get screwed over in Thailand for the most part deserve it there are plenty of successful westerners living and owning business here as another poster alluded to ,yes you chances of you been taken for a mug are higher if your not a Thai ,but I have met lots of people who seem to have no problems here ,only guys that didn't have a penny to start with ,didn't research what they were doing ,and went into business with their eyes closed

Saying you will get screwed because your not a Thai is just incorrect

[DLock]

You supposedly have a solid contract for 4 years lease of a premises.

Just politely refuse his offer, continue to pay rent on time and there is nothing he can do.

Thailand is built in intimidation. If you are going to run at the first approach, you may as well pack up and go home now.

Stand firm, use a lawyer if you feel it gives some documentation and protection and go onwards.

If the landlord comes back with an offer that is beneficial to you, then consider that on its merits.

You are holding a pair of Jacks. He's holding a King 3. It's all how you play the next few cards.

[YipYipYa123]

You supposedly have a solid contract for 4 years lease of a premises.

Just politely refuse his offer, continue to pay rent on time and there is nothing he can do.

Thailand is built in intimidation. If you are going to run at the first approach, you may as well pack up and go home now.

Stand firm, use a lawyer if you feel it gives some documentation and protection and go onwards.

If the landlord comes back with an offer that is beneficial to you, then consider that on its merits.

You are holding a pair of Jacks. He's holding a King 3. It's all how you play the next few cards.

i would say the landlord has ALL THE ACES UP HIS SLEEVE

and a 9mm on his belt

and a walkie talkie to call 400 of his mates who all have similar power

i would not gamble when i could take the 400k and leave ,i also would not feel safe worrying

if my actions costs the policeman to lose out on a few million thb

[soi41]

You supposedly have a solid contract for 4 years lease of a premises.

Just politely refuse his offer, continue to pay rent on time and there is nothing he can do.

Thailand is built in intimidation. If you are going to run at the first approach, you may as well pack up and go home now.

Stand firm, use a lawyer if you feel it gives some documentation and protection and go onwards.

If the landlord comes back with an offer that is beneficial to you, then consider that on its merits.

You are holding a pair of Jacks. He's holding a King 3. It's all how you play the next few cards.

i would say the landlord has ALL THE ACES UP HIS SLEEVE

and a 9mm on his belt

and a walkie talkie to call 400 of his mates who all have similar power

i would not gamble when i could take the 400k and leave ,i also would not feel safe worrying

if my actions costs the policeman to lose out on a few million thb

It is attitudes like that, imtimidated by this guy being a policeofficer (half of this country is police ), that creates a not level playingfield. Not because that is the way it is, but because most farangs here are unrealisticly afraid of BIB, and ofcourse they (BIB) takes advantage of that. Do you seriously believe that the OP's landlord is going to kill him in a dispute over a rentalcontract. With the help of 400 of his mates, who all are just as corrupt and lacking moral values as the landlord? Get real, ! If you knew, how often I how heard from farang (or as letitbe would say: forang ) that someone in the inlawfamily is a policeofficer, all highranking ofcourse. In all interaction with Thais, police or not, be polite but not krengjai, smile a lot but be firm. And you will find out that the law(?) of this country even is for you

[YipYipYa123]

You supposedly have a solid contract for 4 years lease of a premises.

Just politely refuse his offer, continue to pay rent on time and there is nothing he can do.

Thailand is built in intimidation. If you are going to run at the first approach, you may as well pack up and go home now.

Stand firm, use a lawyer if you feel it gives some documentation and protection and go onwards.

If the landlord comes back with an offer that is beneficial to you, then consider that on its merits.

You are holding a pair of Jacks. He's holding a King 3. It's all how you play the next few cards.

i would say the landlord has ALL THE ACES UP HIS SLEEVE

and a 9mm on his belt

and a walkie talkie to call 400 of his mates who all have similar power

i would not gamble when i could take the 400k and leave ,i also would not feel safe worrying

if my actions costs the policeman to lose out on a few million thb

It is attitudes like that, imtimidated by this guy being a policeofficer (half of this country is police ), that creates a not level playingfield. Not because that is the way it is, but because most farangs here are unrealisticly afraid of BIB, and ofcourse they (BIB) takes advantage of that. Do you seriously believe that the OP's landlord is going to kill him in a dispute over a rentalcontract. With the help of 400 of his mates, who all are just as corrupt and lacking moral values as the landlord? Get real, ! If you knew, how often I how heard from farang (or as letitbe would say: forang ) that someone in the inlawfamily is a policeofficer, all highranking ofcourse. In all interaction with Thais, police or not, be polite but not krengjai, smile a lot but be firm. And you will find out that the law(?) of this country even is for you

thats all fine until theres a few million thb at stake (which they may well be in this case )

if someone threw a matchbox of drugs over the wall and they were found on the property

the landlord could get rid of the wife ,the farang and keep the 400,000thb in his pocket

i think its a reasonable deal ,100grand gift money and your 300k deposit back

theres no way hes going to pay your projected/ guesstimated earnings for the next 4 years (circa 4 million thb )

i would love to say stay put but i think thats the wrong advice and may even be harmful

Edited May 28, 2012 by YipYipYa123

[pipo1000]

You supposedly have a solid contract for 4 years lease of a premises.

Just politely refuse his offer, continue to pay rent on time and there is nothing he can do.

Thailand is built in intimidation. If you are going to run at the first approach, you may as well pack up and go home now.

Stand firm, use a lawyer if you feel it gives some documentation and protection and go onwards.

If the landlord comes back with an offer that is beneficial to you, then consider that on its merits.

You are holding a pair of Jacks. He's holding a King 3. It's all how you play the next few cards.

i would say the landlord has ALL THE ACES UP HIS SLEEVE

and a 9mm on his belt

and a walkie talkie to call 400 of his mates who all have similar power

i would not gamble when i could take the 400k and leave ,i also would not feel safe worrying

if my actions costs the policeman to lose out on a few million thb

Corruption can only survive when it is encouraged.

[farang000999]

easy to talk shit when it is not ur 300k baht in key money.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Bottom line to me is even if you think the risk of him using violence or other mafia-like tactics to get you out are small, the potential downside is so large it's not worth taking the chance.

It's only money after all.

And everyone talking about doing your part to fight corruption in Thailand, pshaw! If you're going to spit in the wind, do it downwind not where it's going to come back in your face. Words are easy when it's not your neck on the line.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Same thing happened my x-gf father in europe

he had a house worth 50-100k and town planners decided to build a new retail park behind it

anyway ,they needed to clear his house so they could make a entrance road to the new retail park ,

he stuck to his guns and told them hed lived there for 20 years and built the house with his bare hands etc and rejected the innitial offers

eventually ,he got a million quid to let them bulldoze it (x 10-20 times the going rate for a property, big money way back then ,around 20 years ago )

of course ,this situation is very differnt since the op doesnt own the land ,he just has a short lease entitling him to trade upon it so

he cant hang on like the old man did

The biggest difference between the two cases is from your first line. The whole story took place where the law is actually respected. Here it is meaningless when one party is powerful and connected and the other isn't, the former is only restricted by their own conscience and sense of morality, not by any practical considerations.

[farang000999]

i am not expecting him to use violence but i think at some point you are risking losing your 300k baht in key money as he will create an excuse to force you out of the property. from the policemen i have seen, they dont seem to have very much respect for normal people.

[phl]

If the landlord has a bigger better offer, surely it is more than he offered, at least 10-20 times more, otherwise not worth the hassle.

Just like with anything in Thailand, it is negotiations.

He offered total of 400K, you believe its worth 4000 000, so your wife should come back with that and let him counter offer.

I believe if he offered 400k, he is willing to pay 3 times the amount.

SOI 41, You really need to brush up on your legal knowledge. Lease over 3 years does not need to be added to chanot or anything of a kind, but it should be registered with land office department, in which case landlord has to pay taxes. In 90 % of the time, landlord do not want to register with the land office and hence the problems.

When i was looking for a place, i turned down every single place where landlord refused to register, it is the only security you have, should the landlord wish to break the contract.

Edited May 28, 2012 by phl

[soi41]

If the landlord has a bigger better offer, surely it is more than he offered, at least 10-20 times more, otherwise not worth the hassle.

Just like with anything in Thailand, it is negotiations.

He offered total of 400K, you believe its worth 4000 000, so your wife should come back with that and let him counter offer.

I believe if he offered 400k, he is willing to pay 3 times the amount.

SOI 41, You really need to brush up on your legal knowledge. Lease over 3 years does not need to be added to chanot or anything of a kind, but it should be registered with land office department, in which case landlord has to pay taxes. In 90 % of the time, landlord do not want to register with the land office and hence the problems.

When i was looking for a place, i turned down every single place where landlord refused to register, it is the only security you have, should the landlord wish to break the contract.

Dr Phil. You just love to hate me. At least this time around you didn't call me an idiot. The law says:" it is enforceable only for 3 years, unless it is made in writing (exception) and registered by the competent official". So as much as it hurts me to say, THIS time you were right

[phl]

If the landlord has a bigger better offer, surely it is more than he offered, at least 10-20 times more, otherwise not worth the hassle.

Just like with anything in Thailand, it is negotiations.

He offered total of 400K, you believe its worth 4000 000, so your wife should come back with that and let him counter offer.

I believe if he offered 400k, he is willing to pay 3 times the amount.

SOI 41, You really need to brush up on your legal knowledge. Lease over 3 years does not need to be added to chanot or anything of a kind, but it should be registered with land office department, in which case landlord has to pay taxes. In 90 % of the time, landlord do not want to register with the land office and hence the problems.

When i was looking for a place, i turned down every single place where landlord refused to register, it is the only security you have, should the landlord wish to break the contract.

Dr Phil. You just love to hate me. At least this time around you didn't call me an idiot. The law says:" it is enforceable only for 3 years, unless it is made in writing (exception) and registered by the competent official". So as much as it hurts me to say, THIS time you were right

The i guess silliness of the law here, is that contract not registered with land office has no merit at all. One can not file a law suit if contract is not registered and one can not make any claims either.

The fact that its a written contract and signed by both parties has no weight at all (unless registered)

I have a 10 year lease and it is registered with the land office for 10 years, though admittedly the rental amount shown is much much less than the actual(or landlord is up for huge tax), but i am happy to go along with that, as should anything ever arise, i can still claim enough money to walk away as a happy man

I have also made clause in the contract in the event of landlord wanting to sell the building(the amounts i want to be paid out), wants to break the contract( can not do, contract is 3x3x3x1, it is made as such that landlord has already agreed and signed to renew every 3 years, while i can still cancel after each 3)

To make landlord happy and be fair, i also put a clause that should i sell for profit, i will give landlord 100k as a "thank you"

[coconutking]

The second meeting did not take place on Sunday as planned. The landlord never called to set it up, and we were not going to call him. He did however stop by our shop and talk with our manager, who told him she was very angry that he was asking us to leave, and forcing her out of a job. She went on to say that she liked working for us, and since she started working for us, that her life was overall better, and outlined the details of that. He called my wife last night and asked to see her. She went with our manager and they both told him the financial burden this would put on them and the extended affect it would have on their families and other workers that would also lose their jobs. Basically they cried. Prior to this meeting, my wife was informed by a village elder, that the landlord was having some problems with his other opportunity (perhaps why he did not call on Sunday). There are a lot more details, but no one is going to read a post that long. Bottom line is: We have our contract, and everyone is happy. He never admitted to his real plans, but did ask if he could contact us in a year or so and possibly make another offer at that time. He did not lose face, because he thinks he, looks like a big hearted hero to us. Everyone wins.

I really appreciated the honest answers I received…………Thanks.

coconutking

[SteveLynch]

Nice ,best of luck for the future

[scorecard]

Not paranoid, just concerned..........I would be inclined not to go along to the meeting tonight as your wife can use you as an excuse to not make any decisions or agree to anything. If your both there then you are on the spot.

You can't blame the policeman for wanting to cash in on an investment, so I would go in with a conciliatory attitude and listen to what he has to say. Not all negotiations need to be at daggers drawn, and you know if you go down that road you will lose.

So!!......send your wife, congratulate the landlord on this good opportunity, listen to what he has to say, get your wife to tell him that you want to help him close the deal, you will help him, tell him you will help him because you know he is a good man and he will help you and be fair with you.

Face, dear Sir, Face.......and a little bit of reverse psychology too.

edited for clarity.

Plus, your wife tells the police office that she is happy to listen, make notes then consider the situation for 48 hours, etc. Obviously she then comes home for discussion with you.

But there's possibly other ways to be looking at this:

- Is it critical that you occupy this particular premises?

- In fact, is this an opportunity to move to a better location?

- Or, would it be to your advantage to be in the next shop or close by to the chain store?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

The i guess silliness of the law here, is that contract not registered with land office has no merit at all. One can not file a law suit if contract is not registered and one can not make any claims either.

The fact that its a written contract and signed by both parties has no weight at all (unless registered)

Obviously you've managed to negotiate a very favorable contract and done the right thing by registering it.

My understanding is that a contract under three years does not need to be registered and is as enforceable as any written contract is in Thailand via recourse to the civil courts.

However a contract longer than three years that isn't registered is illegal and therefore unenforceable. Clarification if I'm wrong would be appreciated.

I would think the same would apply to a contract that was falsified for the purpose of defrauding the government of taxes, but then of course the landlord wouldn't be the one the bring that aspect up.

[phl]

The i guess silliness of the law here, is that contract not registered with land office has no merit at all. One can not file a law suit if contract is not registered and one can not make any claims either.

The fact that its a written contract and signed by both parties has no weight at all (unless registered)

Obviously you've managed to negotiate a very favorable contract and done the right thing by registering it.

My understanding is that a contract under three years does not need to be registered and is as enforceable as any written contract is in Thailand via recourse to the civil courts.

However a contract longer than three years that isn't registered is illegal and therefore unenforceable. Clarification if I'm wrong would be appreciated.

I would think the same would apply to a contract that was falsified for the purpose of defrauding the government of taxes, but then of course the landlord wouldn't be the one the bring that aspect up.

I am not 100% certain on the aspect of time frames, though something does ring a bell not needing to register under 3 years, but i would insist on registering any commercial contract.

From memory, my lawyer explained that if commercial contract is not registered, it is "void" if filing a law suit.(void could be the wrong word, but it was something along the lines)

About falsifying the actual rent, yes it is as bad as you made it sound , however if going to court tax office is not involved and you will find most if not all landlord do not want to register as they would be up for tax.

I think having contract registered plays rather a deterring role for landlord to even consider doing something or be prepared to pay a fair amount in compensation.

PS. Another thing i did and would strongly advice for anyone looking or thinking, my contract is also in English. So the "misunderstanding " or "mistranslation" can not be used as an excuse. Both English and Thai versions are signed by both party's

Not saying i am 100% safe, but sure have enough ammunition to stay the course

Edited May 29, 2012 by phl

[DLock]

Well played sir.

A lot of posters would be sitting with their money back and no business right now if they had been in your position because of their unfounded fear of the myth of Thai Police.

Sounds like he knows you have a contract and he is not in a position to buy you out or throw you out. He tried a lowball and it failed. He accepted it and may come back later if his position changes.

Hope the business does well.

[farang000999]

lol dlock his other offer fell through so you expect him to still kick them out? why?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

And remember very common here would be suddenly "things" just start happening totally unrelated of course that make it impossible to keep doing business in that location, tenant decides they have to move on their own voluntarily. And suddenly it turns out that the landlord's had a great offer after all, what a coincidence.

[theblether]

The second meeting did not take place on Sunday as planned. The landlord never called to set it up, and we were not going to call him. He did however stop by our shop and talk with our manager, who told him she was very angry that he was asking us to leave, and forcing her out of a job. She went on to say that she liked working for us, and since she started working for us, that her life was overall better, and outlined the details of that. He called my wife last night and asked to see her. She went with our manager and they both told him the financial burden this would put on them and the extended affect it would have on their families and other workers that would also lose their jobs. Basically they cried. Prior to this meeting, my wife was informed by a village elder, that the landlord was having some problems with his other opportunity (perhaps why he did not call on Sunday). There are a lot more details, but no one is going to read a post that long. Bottom line is: We have our contract, and everyone is happy. He never admitted to his real plans, but did ask if he could contact us in a year or so and possibly make another offer at that time. He did not lose face, because he thinks he, looks like a big hearted hero to us. Everyone wins.

I really appreciated the honest answers I received…………Thanks.

coconutking

Well done coconutking, good luck with the future development of your business.

Sam Walton, the man that founded Walmart, said in his autobiography that he built his first shop up to be a resounding success. However being naive at the time he only had a 5 year lease. At the end of the lease the landlord took possesion of the shop and gave it to his son, who immediately opened a copycat business in the premises.

Mr Walton never forgot the lesson taught that day, you need to drive your business forward to a point where you are the property owner, that's the new target, and when you have achieved that no one else will be able to bully you around.

[simon43]

Well done, but I don't think now is the time to sit back and do nothing.

You stated that you have a solid, 4 year lease contract on the property. As others have stated, if a 3 year+ contract is not registered at the land office, (which does also mean adding your name as leasee to the land title document), then that lease contract is illegal, because the land office is not receiving the land tax that is legally due to them. (Has to be paid at 1.2% I think of the total lease rent for the lease term). Whether you or the landlord pays is up to you both to agree on, but it has to be paid, (bit late now in your case...)

Anyway, since the lease is illegal, I cannot see how you could enforce any extension/renewal of that lease when the 4 year period is completed. So you only have limited time to relocate your business before the landlord reclaims his property without any compensation payment to you.

Just saying ...

Simon

[YipYipYa123]

The very fact that this policeman is rich enough to be owning and renting properties would be cause for concern in itself

I love it how everyone says the policeman must be a decent law abiding fellow who would never use illegal tactics to make lots of money

But policemen dont get enough salary to be ..........without.................using illegal tactics to make lots of money ............

[BigJohnnyBKK]

T

The very fact that this policeman is rich enough to be owning and renting properties would be cause for concern in itself

I love it how everyone says the policeman must be a decent law abiding fellow who would never use illegal tactics to make lots of money

But policemen dont get enough salary to be ..........without.................using illegal tactics to make lots of money ............

The very fact that this policeman is rich enough to be owning and renting properties would be cause for concern in itself

I love it how everyone says the policeman must be a decent law abiding fellow who would never use illegal tactics to make lots of money

But policemen dont get enough salary to be ..........without.................using illegal tactics to make lots of money ............

The very fact that this policeman is rich enough to be owning and renting properties would be cause for concern in itself

I love it how everyone says the policeman must be a decent law abiding fellow who would never use illegal tactics to make lots of money

But policemen dont get enough salary to be ..........without.................using illegal tactics to make lots of money ............

Some lily-white pure (stuck in nowhere posts I'm sure), some pure black-hearted yabaa dealers and hitmen for hire to anyone with the dosh, with most in the middle in nfinite shades of grey. Just because one takes bribes doesn't mean he'd use violence to break a contract.

Problem is you wouldn't ever really know most of the time, lots of "bad luck" happens here without any clear path back to the real cause.

Easy for all those saying "man up" and take your chances, IMO better to play it safe.