Are Gay Pride Parades (Globally) Good For The "Gay Community"?

[Jingthing]

In another thread, there was a lot of noise from opponents of same sex marriage equality that gay pride parades with their inevitable flamboyant characters (OMG, men in dresses!) have done great damage to the gay rights cause.

I see there is some damage, but OVERALL, I think they have been a great benefit over the years. From the commercial parties in Atlanta to Russia where they put the participants in great personal danger.

I can't imagine that the progress the gay rights movement has achieved GLOBALLY over the last decades would have happened to the degree that it did WITHOUT the visibility of gay pride parades.

We now have legal same sex marriage or powerful civil unions in a number of countries in the world. I think they gay pride parades/gay freedom days, etc. definitely have helped to make this happen. Visibility, it's a double edged sword maybe, but it's a sword that's needed.

When/if there is a gay pride parade in TEHRAN where the participants aren't rounded up and murdered, then we will know things are starting to get better there for the oppressed gay people of Iran. So they have become symbols of different nation's tolerance level.

Penny Satang (government mandated THAI content) for your thoughts?

I won't do a poll because we can just read this one:

http://www.huffingto...?ref=gay-voices

Edited June 2, 2012 by Jingthing

[cdnvic]

They've changed a lot in Canada over the years. Twenty years ago they were defiant, angry, and vey political. Marchers were often disguised as to not be recognized in their "real jobs". Today they are more like a celebration where people bring their kids, and everyone has a good time. I also find that as the parades' message has mellowed, so has the overt sexuality, which is probably why it's more of a family affair now. There's still masks worn, but it's just like any other parade with silly costumes. Rather than hiding identities from their bosses, many participants carry banners advertising their employer, union, or service club.

I think the role of the parade depends a lot on where they are held, and what the situation is in that jurisdiction regarding gay rights, and their acceptance in society. The defiant political marches I saw in the past certainly brought attention to the subject, and perhaps emboldened those in the closet to stand up. Now, when many of the battles for equality have been won the celebratory, fun parade helps people see them as just another part of a diverse community, with people appreciating the pride parade just like they would the dragons at Chinese new year. Sure the haters are still out there, but at least now it's they who must keep their opinions to themselves for fear of being shunned.

The parades have their place, and as situations change they will evolve to reflect it.

[MrRealDeal]

Yes they are good for the gay community in the same way a pep rally is good for the football team , are they good for the image of the community is an entirely different question and depends on the image the parade itself. If the plan of a typical parade is to convience people watching that they are the same as everyone else but for being gay I wound say it's not good , if the plan is to show people that they are different but no so different as to be something to be afraid of, I would say it's a sucsess or "good".

But it is what it is, and I think the question can be answered by what has happened over the course of numerous parades ..... have people learned to dislike what they see or have people learned to accept it ? I think the answer is that gay people are looked at as another microcosim of society with the ecetrentic on one end of the parade and the not quite as much on the other end, and many in the middle.......... not inspite of the parades but because of them.

If the parades were not "good" logic would say the comunity would be worse off today than before ..... could they have been better ? I would say probabbly not as opposed to saying a watered down version of a non news worthy milktoast parade would have accomplished anything at all and certianly not as much as fast.

If you want attention to something having a wacky newsworthy parade of seemingly crazy people will get the job done, and after the dust settles sensible people know that most of those people are members of their town selling them car insurance to coffee and know that in the end their parade was designed to draw attention to the cause, not to pretend that big assed ballons of mickey mouse make thanksgiving what it is.

[Jingthing]

The attendance at Pride parades in San Francisco these days is over one million people. That's hundreds of thousands more people than actually live in the city and county of San Francisco!

[David006]

Don't really think that the parades have anything to do with pride or rights it's just fun thing which most enjoy ..yes there is the shock factor that the more flamboyant wish to impart but that is part of the fun .

I really believe there is a distinct difference between those people who are the "look at me I am ..." and those who have genuine same sex predilections and wish not to be discriminated against.

In another hundred years or so, who knows, maybe we will see little boys with painted bums and cherub wings on floats....history coming full circle...lol

[isanbirder]

Quite a complex question, I think. In some places, it may polarise opinion for and against gay rights; in others it may be a great fun thing, and do nothing but good.

I'm not sure whether it would do any good in Thailand. yes, I know we have plenty of flamboyant katoeys who would revel in it, but they are rather looked down on by the rest of the Thai community. If it was purely Thai, my feeling is that it would have a generally positive effect; if farangs were involved, it might put a lot of backs up.

In a country like Iran, as you mentioned, JT, I don't think it would do any good; it might be a quick way to kill off any activists there may be there.

[geriatrickid]

The gay pride parade in Patong has most of its floats sponsored by the entertainment bars and it is heavy on the sex aspect, serving as an "advertisement" for their merchandise. Most of the participants are drawn from those bars. I think it reinforces all the negative stereotypes. In other cities, participants are drawn from all walks of life and regular companies sponsor the floats. I recall getting all sorts of freebies like lube, condoms, Mac cosmetic samples and some music cds.(My friends grabbed it all, leaving me with the pineapple flavoured condoms, which apparently no one, including me likes.) At the Toronto pride parade some years ago, kids received stuffed animals. I thought that was a nice touch.

Some parades do a good job on advocacy and education and I have been very impressed by STI, domestic violence, financial planning, family support info booths and handouts they offered. The staff and volunteers at the booths are effective and know their stuff. Even the media outlets will have booths. These events provide an opportunity to do community outreach.

I forget where it was, but I recall inadertently being in town when they had a gay pride event. There was a float filled with the usual guys with bodies I will never have, but it was followed by the klingon brigade. Ok, so what do Klingons have to do with gay pride? Nothing, and that is why it was so cool. Everyone was welcome and you just knew that in those Klingons were probably all types, which meant that they were just like everyone else. It was a party and everyone was welcome,

Now if I look at the Patong event, one is hard pressed to find the health info table and those poor guys don't get the support they deserve, The emphasis on outreach and support isn't visible in Patong and its more of an advertisement for the bars. Ideally, you would think a bank would have a booth or sponsor a float, or a real estate firm, considering the number of foreigners looking for property,, but I've not seen it. In the west, some of the airlines will sponsor events. I doubt TG would even consider such a proposal.

Pride is the only time some messages can get out to so many people in an environment where one isn't embarrassed. Unfortunately, in Patong, that opportunity is not seized. That's why I dislike the Patong event. It's just the same old opportunity to sell booze, offer crappy music and merchandise. They peel off the Happy New Year and Phuket Bike Week labels and slap on Gay Pride.

[LeCharivari]

The gay pride parade in Patong has most of its floats sponsored by the entertainment bars and it is heavy on the sex aspect, serving as an "advertisement" for their merchandise. Most of the participants are drawn from those bars. I think it reinforces all the negative stereotypes.

Pattaya had a similar parade at one time, primarily as part of the World Aids Day parade, and the "parade" was no more than a succession of floats advertising bars with young, attractive Thais and a few old, overweight, unattractive and rather embarrassing farangs. The "negative stereotypes" could hardly have been worse.

[LeCharivari]

In a country like Iran, .... , I don't think it would do any good; it might be a quick way to kill off any activists there may be there.

Agreed, IB. Sometimes the organisers appear to be deliberately seeking confrontation, as with the first Gay Pride parades in Bosnia and Budapest which were held in the middle of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

Russia has passed some some severely homophibic laws recently, but the claim that there are Gay Pride Parades in Russia which "put the participants in great personal danger" is incorrect.

Pride parades are generally banned in Russia and the one time that a parade/rally was sanctioned in St Petersburg on 17 May this year the official rally went off quietly* in Petrovsky Park, organised by Coming Out, the Russian gay rights organisation. There was one incident between a member of the rally, who was pepper-sprayed by a protester who was arrested by police, but the parade participants were heavily protected by police and even provided with police/government transport. The violence initially reported at the rally involved a passing busload of immigrants who were attacked by a group of neo-nazi skinheads.

There is no Pride Parade in Moscow, as it has been banned for the past 7 years. This year (last week) there were minor scuffles between the 30 Russian gay rights activists and the similar number of Christian Orthodox protesters who both tried to hold illegal protests outside Parliament and City Hall at the same time; 40 (from both sides) were arrested.

* http://www.advocate.com/politics/2012/05/17/protestors-face-russia-first-time-over-gay-propaganda-law?page=0,0

[Jingthing]

Oh please if they have to guarded by lots of police of course they are in great personal danger! Imagine if there was no police protecting them.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

I wouldn't have tried to draw a connection between gay same sex marriage equality and Gay Pride parades myself as there are so many variables and any connections could be coincidental, but since JT's asked so nicely .....

.... the two biggest and best known Gay Pride Parades are probably those in America (San Francisco) and Australia (Sydney); the two countries that have re-defined their marriage legislation as only between a man and a woman since the Parades began are ... America and Australia.

.... probably just a coincidence

[Jingthing]

New York is very big. New York state just legalized gay marriage.

Incremental progress. That includes SETBACKS. That is how civil rights struggles have ALWAYS been. The BIG picture is towards marriage equality in BOTH Australia and the USA. Yes, I DO draw a connection between visibility and the INEVITABLE DIRECTION of this progress which is in our favor.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Jingthing

[mca]

There's a quite flamboyant gay Thai guy down our street and the local somtam seller is a katoey who are a source of endless fascination to my daughter. She was asking me about gays and katoeys in the UK and I said that there weren't so many in the UK who "showed out" in public as in Thailand.

The next night on TV was a report from Gay Pride back home

" Daddy I thought you said...:"

[Ijustwannateach]

Unfortunately, with a very few recent exceptions- one in Bangkok that was not widely known among foreigners a couple years back, and one in Chiang Mai that was illegally harassed into stopping by the threat of violence by red-shirt a$$wipes, nearly all the gay parades/festivals I have seen in Thailand were prostitution/commerciality-dominated- not exactly a very healthy image for the gay 'community', such as there is, to be projecting. If those are the best Thailand can manage, it's probably better if they don't have them (and I am reflecting the opinion here also of my Thai friends who expressed puzzlement at past gay parade demographics here).

[Jingthing]

You have a point about these parades in Thailand.

[LeCharivari]

.... If those are the best Thailand can manage, it's probably better if they don't have them (and I am reflecting the opinion here also of my Thai friends who expressed puzzlement at past gay parade demographics here).

Agreed, IJWT - they also couldn't understand why they should be held on World Aids Day, with the unintended but all too clear inference.

[toenail]

Gay parades , unfortunately, seem to reinforce the stereotype of gays. Is there such a thing as a parade for straights?

[endure]

Gay parades , unfortunately, seem to reinforce the stereotype of gays. Is there such a thing as a parade for straights?

There's nothing stopping you from organising one.

[Jingthing]

Gay parades , unfortunately, seem to reinforce the stereotype of gays. Is there such a thing as a parade for straights?

Been there, done that.

[cdnvic]

Is there such a thing as a parade for straights?

You'd be surprised at how many people in pride parades are.

[Jingthing]

Give us a call when it's heterosexuals who are denied basic civil rights in the majority of countries in the world, and often worse. I'll be marching with them! (I love a good cause.)

Edited June 9, 2012 by Jingthing

[Suradit69]

Yes they are good for the gay community in the same way a pep rally is good for the football team , are they good for the image of the community is an entirely different question and depends on the image the parade itself.

There are probably some good things to be said for them, as you say, to raise spirits, but I don't identify with what most of them seem to emphasize and I generally don't see anything in them that makes me feel proud. They certainly seem not to be very inclusive with the main focus on youth and physical beauty, which sends an unfortunate message about priorities. Usually pride events hosted by minorities make a point of their collaborative and individual accomplishments and their contributions to the larger community.

Not saying that they shouldn't take place or that they haven't been useful, but I'm not sure if the word "pride" is necessarily applicable.

Maybe "gay youth and beauty celebration" would be a better descriptor.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Suradit69

[cdnvic]

That might vary a lot from one region to another, depending on local tastes. While there's no shortage of pretty people in the parades I've been to lately, there's no shortage of larger, older, and other "non-pretty" participants. Maybe its just that the younger, prettier ones feel more confident flaunting their physiques.

[Ijustwannateach]

Also the young & pretty are already pretty celebrated- I think it's important not to marginalise the 'non-young, non-pretty' (hee hee hee), because they are inevitably going to be the majority.

[Suradit69]

That might vary a lot from one region to another, depending on local tastes. While there's no shortage of pretty people in the parades I've been to lately, there's no shortage of larger, older, and other "non-pretty" participants. Maybe its just that the younger, prettier ones feel more confident flaunting their physiques.

I have to admit that my experience with such parades is usually limited to still photos and/or videos on the Internet or 30 second coverage on TV and I suppose the persons wielding the cameras understandably are drawn to those with the least amount of clothes, the ones who look good in or out of clothes or those in the most bizarre costumes.

Also the young & pretty are already pretty celebrated- I think it's important not to marginalise the 'non-young, non-pretty' (hee hee hee), because they are inevitably going to be the majority.

Stickman once wrote a piece in the Bangkok Post that stated, among other things, that Thai gays are especially fluffy, or something along those lines. There was a negative reaction to his whole article and he made some half-a$$ed apology. But I think his generalization suggests that when a lot of people think "gay," they think sequined, boa-ed half-naked participants in gay pride parades or silly, screaming half-wits on television soap operas.

While I personally have no objection to young, attractive, half-naked young men in parades or virtually anywhere, if gay pride parades are meant to be at least partially educational to the non-gay public,emphasizing that (e.g. photos below) just feeds the notion that all gays want to act like sexy air-heads with a very limited shelf-life following which they become invisible and suicidal.

I realize that a parade show-casing all the great gay authors, artists, entertainers, military figures, et al would probably attract about as much interest as a demonstration of water evaporating, but maybe a little dignified education could be thrown in with the mania.

I just feel absolutely no connection to this:

Edited June 13, 2012 by Suradit69

[Ijustwannateach]

Many straights- and god help them, even some gay foreigners- only recognise a gay person when he is a flamboyant poseur. There are many, many, many, many who are not like that- perhaps just as many as those who are.

[LeCharivari]

I would hope not only "just as many", but considerably more - as far as I am aware the only thing that would help someone recognise me as gay is my Partner holding my hand (his choice) or my calling him "darling" (my choice). In the past when I have been with a lady friend who also (occasionally) held my hand, or whose young daughter did, it was usually assumed that I was the husband/father.

[catmac]

I'm in full agreement with Suradit69 on this.

I can only speak for my experience in the U.K., but I fail to see how the sight of a bunch of screaming young fags, followed by a bunch of hairy old bears clad only in metal studded leather jockstraps strutting down the local high street can advance the cause of gay equality one bit.

What did help, in my opinion, was the ability of more and more ordinary people to feel able to come out and be counted as gay as the legal penalties gradually fell, a process achieved by very un-confrontational gays engaging in rational discussion with MPs such as Leo Abse. I doubt if he would have got involved if the only protaganists looked like those in Suradit69's post!

I believe that for every one of those "in your facers", there must be hundreds of ordinary gay people doing their best to dispel the ghastly stereotyping that "gay pride" marches seem bent on reinforcing.

Personally, I shudder when I see these parodies doing their thing in MY name - I'm gay, yet I feel nothing but sadness at the way my desire for equal treatment in law has been highjacked by this lot.

[Jingthing]

I have come to the conclusion that the helpfulness of these gay parades/pride events can't really be generalized internationally, and the meaning of them does change over time. So where I'm at now is that sometimes they are helpful, sometimes they are neutral, and sometimes that can be potentially harmful. (To the cause of civil rights for sexual minorities, obviously.)

Example of helpful:

Edited June 16, 2012 by Jingthing

[MrRed]

Although i am not homosexual,i often used to go down to the rembrandt and other bars in the gay area of the city in Manchester Known locally as anal street(Canal street)The gay village is now accepted as an integral part of the Manchester scene

Used to have some really wonderful times down there in the 80"s and now the gay pride event is massive every year and is a great event supported by the very easy going labour council in Manchester,things like this can only be good for the gay community and also the areas involved.

Edited June 16, 2012 by MrRed