'Secrets Bar & Hotel' Raid Leads To American Manager's Arrest: Pattaya

[Rimmer]

Libellous post removed

[BigJohnnyBKK]

You gotta be kidding! One does not bar fine the staff one bar fines bar girls. Except ..... I don't think I should go into it, too specific might offend some some people. Well I guess I could say that staff are not meant to be bar fined except sometimes when...... and bar girls are meant to be barfined. Normally in some places at least it's easy to tell the difference, look up on the stage at the people trying to shake those things off. Well at least before certain times. Look up on the wall for those big signs.

I realize all of the below is old hat to most readers, so just ignore, more for newbies and to help clarify the confusion I find in the above.

A typical gogo/beer bar in Thailand has different types of staff. Some staff are "service only", cashiers waitresses etc, not explicitly intended/advertised to be barfined. The girls wearing numbers, here referred to as "bar girls" are the ones you're "supposed to" barfine. But they're all staff.

In my experience, if you get friendly enough with the service staff and they like the look of you, they are frequently available as well, and personally I much prefer these girls to the explicit bar girls. Depending on the management and their policies, you might have to wait for their shift to end and just deal direct - IOWs you're not allowed to barfine them. However sometimes the barfine is simply set higher, usually high enough to discourage skinflints like me. And sometimes it's the same price, but whether or not the mamasan allows depends on how busy the place is at that time.

But all of these are staff of the bar.

Then you have freelancers who are definitely not staff of the bar, free to come and go and have to pay for their drinks or get the male customers to pay for them. These are usually not allowed to solicit in places and go-go's beerbars with explicit bar girls on staff, and no barfine is required.

The waitresses, bartenders and cashiers in those places are likewise usually available (again if they fancy you) to be barfined, but (again) the price is usually set higher than normal to discourage it, make it worth management's while to overstaff to handle such contingencies.

And just to make things more confusing, many people would call all of the above "bar girls", just use it as a euphemism for sex workers in general, or even (IMO totally inaccurately) to girls that don't explicitly engage in p4p but are fellow customers just out for a good time and may or may not hook up with a guy without expecting an explicit payment.

This confusion results as well from the fact that many girls that are in fact pro's try to masquerade as the latter and don't talk about payment until the deed's been done, both in the hope of preserving face and that they might be able to wangle a higher rate than the usual going one. However they usually target only the true noob tourists, speak a little Thai and away they run. . .

[brewsterbudgen]

Lot of unsubstantiated allegations going on here...

I think it is time members took stock of the facts..

and for my two pennies worth, IMHO am I not correct in thinking Secrets is probably the biggest conspicuous commercialized pimping operation in Pattaya?

and can anyone name any Pattaya newspaper (hard copy or on-line) with any creditability?

No. you would be incorrect. It's a bar/restaurant/hotel.

Yes, it is a bar/restaurant/hotel and it is has made no secret that staff can be "Bar Fined"...

Yes, but how is that "pimping"? Girls can be barfined and then taken out to dinner, to the movies, shopping, for ice cream - for any purpose that the barfiner chooses. Sometimes a girl is barfined by themself or their 'sister', if they don't want to work that particular night.

If a someone chooses to have sex with the person they barfine, that is totally up to them and the girl who's been barfined.

Edited June 20, 2012 by brewsterbudgen

[kerryk]

You gotta be kidding! One does not bar fine the staff one bar fines bar girls. Except ..... I don't think I should go into it, too specific might offend some some people. Well I guess I could say that staff are not meant to be bar fined except sometimes when...... and bar girls are meant to be barfined. Normally in some places at least it's easy to tell the difference, look up on the stage at the people trying to shake those things off. Well at least before certain times. Look up on the wall for those big signs.

I realize all of the below is old hat to most readers, so just ignore, more for newbies and to help clarify the confusion I find in the above.

A typical gogo/beer bar in Thailand has different types of staff. Some staff are "service only", cashiers waitresses etc, not explicitly intended/advertised to be barfined. The girls wearing numbers, here referred to as "bar girls" are the ones you're "supposed to" barfine. But they're all staff.

In my experience, if you get friendly enough with the service staff and they like the look of you, they are frequently available as well, and personally I much prefer these girls to the explicit bar girls. Depending on the management and their policies, you might have to wait for their shift to end and just deal direct - IOWs you're not allowed to barfine them. However sometimes the barfine is simply set higher, usually high enough to discourage skinflints like me. And sometimes it's the same price, but whether or not the mamasan allows depends on how busy the place is at that time.

But all of these are staff of the bar.

Then you have freelancers who are definitely not staff of the bar, free to come and go and have to pay for their drinks or get the male customers to pay for them. These are usually not allowed to solicit in places and go-go's beerbars with explicit bar girls on staff, and no barfine is required.

The waitresses, bartenders and cashiers in those places are likewise usually available (again if they fancy you) to be barfined, but (again) the price is usually set higher than normal to discourage it, make it worth management's while to overstaff to handle such contingencies.

And just to make things more confusing, many people would call all of the above "bar girls", just use it as a euphemism for sex workers in general, or even (IMO totally inaccurately) to girls that don't explicitly engage in p4p but are fellow customers just out for a good time and may or may not hook up with a guy without expecting an explicit payment.

This confusion results as well from the fact that many girls that are in fact pro's try to masquerade as the latter and don't talk about payment until the deed's been done, both in the hope of preserving face and that they might be able to wangle a higher rate than the usual going one. However they usually target only the true noob tourists, speak a little Thai and away they run. . .

Since you have gone this far you might as well also tell them that there are ###### short time hotels in Pattaya and almost every bar has one above, below, next to, to the left of, or to the right,under the DJ stand, or just down the street!

[elliss]

NO ,, i am not that FRIGING old ,,

i thought the yankie boys , using pattaya for RnR ,

were responsible for intoducing the thai ladies to an alternative, and easier way of earning a living ,

IN A HORIZONTAL POSITION .

.

p.s.. thanks guys, much appreciated ,

[kerryk]

NO ,, i am not that FRIGING old ,,

i thought the yankie boys , using pattaya for RnR ,

were responsible for intoducing the thai ladies to an alternative, and easier way of earning a living ,

IN A HORIZONTAL POSITION .

.

p.s.. thanks guys, much appreciated ,

Actually it was the Thai boys but if you want Farang it was the Portuguese and the French.But give credit where credit is due. The industry is now and always was 90% Thai with Thai. Actually the first large Army to occupy Thailand was the British in 1946. The Japanese were here 4 years before but not as occupiers.

[Gary A]

There are several Amazing Thailand things that continue to amaze me. One is the amount of people who CLAIM never to have been in Pattaya who know everything there is to know about fun city. Then there are those who HAVE been to Pattaya but since they are now married to Hi So Thai Chinese ladies are forbidden to ever visit again.

Another thing are the number of scam artist, wealthy thieves who continue to operate their businesses. These are people who have stolen millions of baht from naive investors by masquerading as upstanding citizens of Pattaya. The police would do a LOT more good arresting these people for outright fraud than by harassing bar owners who are operating exactly the same as nearly all the rest of the Thai bars.

HM could reveal lots of names and crimes but he doesn't want to go to jail or be sued for telling the truth. Making enemies of connected Pattaya businessmen is not a good or smart thing to do.

[TommyDee]

Lot of unsubstantiated allegations going on here...

I think it is time members took stock of the facts..

and for my two pennies worth, IMHO am I not correct in thinking Secrets is probably the biggest conspicuous commercialized pimping operation in Pattaya?

and can anyone name any Pattaya newspaper (hard copy or on-line) with any creditability?

No. you would be incorrect. It's a bar/restaurant/hotel.

Yes, it is a bar/restaurant/hotel and it is has made no secret that staff can be "Bar Fined"...

Yes, but how is that "pimping"? Girls can be barfined and then taken out to dinner, to the movies, shopping, for ice cream - for any purpose that the barfiner chooses. Sometimes a girl is barfined by themself or their 'sister', if they don't want to work that particular night.

If a someone chooses to have sex with the person they barfine, that is totally up to them and the girl who's been barfined.

all of this happens an awful lot more often than many imagine. Many, especially older, guys BF a girl or two or three, just for their company, to go to dinner, chat or see a show. I am constanlty amazed when I talk to some ladies who have no reason to lie

[RealisticRon]

Yes, but how is that "pimping"? Girls can be barfined and then taken out to dinner, to the movies, shopping, for ice cream - for any purpose that the barfiner chooses. Sometimes a girl is barfined by themself or their 'sister', if they don't want to work that particular night.

If a someone chooses to have sex with the person they barfine, that is totally up to them and the girl who's been barfined.

It's only the noobs that think otherwise what you said is how it is. Pattaya is full to the brim with 2 week millionaire know it all noobs.

[Spoonman]

Lot of unsubstantiated allegations going on here...

I think it is time members took stock of the facts..

and for my two pennies worth, IMHO am I not correct in thinking Secrets is probably the biggest conspicuous commercialized pimping operation in Pattaya?

and can anyone name any Pattaya newspaper (hard copy or on-line) with any creditability?

No. you would be incorrect. It's a bar/restaurant/hotel.

Actually their website says its a Bar/Nightclub/Hotel.

[manarak]

To many of you are believing the story printed by the Pattaya Times. Understand that the Times has almost zero credibility. If I were to make an educated guess, it would be that Secrets either dropped advertising in the Times, or refused to advertise in the Times. The whole story makes no sense to anyone that has been a customer at Secrets. They do not do business as described in the story. The two Times story's don't match up with each other, much less anyones elses experience at Secrets.

The whole part of an underage maid is nothing more than unfounded accusations by the paper. Admittedly steeming from a forum poster who has some sort of a grudge with Secrets, and made accusations about them back in 2009. How much credibility can we give a a forum poster that makes an accusation in 2009 about Secrets employing an underage girl, years before that? What does that have to do with June 2012?

Had the editor of the Times not been accused of black mailing other business owners under threat of publishing false stories before, there could be some credibility to the story.

what about the photo?

What about the photo? Was there one of the supposed underage maid??

no...

Lovedog was insinuating the story is made up.

Two photos of Larry were published showing him lead into the police station and another sitting at the table with a proud lt-col of the bangkok police posing behind him.

So the photos clearly show that Larry really has been arrested.

[manarak]

I can't speak for Lovedog, but I don't think he was saying the raid and arrest didn't happen - just the stories about 14 year old maids and underage nonsense.

Maybe I interpreted his post too narrowly, for me the main story is that Larry was arrested on pimping charges, the story with the 14 yo being just a detail in the broader picture.

Edited June 20, 2012 by manarak

[MarkCyr]

I always find busts like this funny. ALL of the bars on WS have short time rooms and they ALL sell sex. Secrets just happened not to pay the tea money to the Boys in Blue. Anyway, Secrets has a history of dicking over biz partners, so I guess this is karmic reward?

I just wish Thailand would come up with one policy. Either paying for sex is legal or it isn't. In the meantime, the corrupt police will allow anybody who pays the requisite fees to thrive and arrest the rest.

[manarak]

I always find busts like this funny. ALL of the bars on WS have short time rooms and they ALL sell sex. Secrets just happened not to pay the tea money to the Boys in Blue. Anyway, Secrets has a history of dicking over biz partners, so I guess this is karmic reward?

I just wish Thailand would come up with one policy. Either paying for sex is legal or it isn't. In the meantime, the corrupt police will allow anybody who pays the requisite fees to thrive and arrest the rest.

Paying for sex is legal, as well as receiving money for sex.

Too obvious solicitation, pimping and any business extracting revenues from prostitution isn't.

Edited June 20, 2012 by manarak

[striderman]

i find most of this a joke.

i like the secrets bar but mainly for watching footy although the screens need renewing. nobody bothers me for a LD in there unlike almost everywhere else on or near walking st.

yes you can barfine girls but so is the case in almost every bar in pattaya, and there are no shows no showing no nothing going on in the bar.

I know walking st and the gogo's and the seedy places and secrets would not feature on that list.

the foods not bad though

[pauljones]

At 2nd Road and Soi 13 is a bar, underpaying staff, selling prostitutes, operating after hours and on restricted days.

Why are they still allowed to operate?

I do see Police a couple of police motorbikes parked there all the time.

[phl]

At 2nd Road and Soi 13 is a bar, underpaying staff, selling prostitutes, operating after hours and on restricted days.

Why are they still allowed to operate?

I do see Police a couple of police motorbikes parked there all the time.

may be you should report it

[pipo1000]

At 2nd Road and Soi 13 is a bar, underpaying staff, selling prostitutes, operating after hours and on restricted days.

Why are they still allowed to operate?

I do see Police a couple of police motorbikes parked there all the time.

may be you should report it

Paul can report it to the bar owner, she in return will forward it to her police boyfriend.

[brewsterbudgen]

I always find busts like this funny. ALL of the bars on WS have short time rooms and they ALL sell sex. Secrets just happened not to pay the tea money to the Boys in Blue. Anyway, Secrets has a history of dicking over biz partners, so I guess this is karmic reward?

I just wish Thailand would come up with one policy. Either paying for sex is legal or it isn't. In the meantime, the corrupt police will allow anybody who pays the requisite fees to thrive and arrest the rest.

Paying for sex is legal, as well as receiving money for sex.

Too obvious solicitation, pimping and any business extracting revenues from prostitution isn't.

Correct. I wonder why people persist in stating that paying for sex is illegal in Thailand when it isn't?

[kerryk]

I always find busts like this funny. ALL of the bars on WS have short time rooms and they ALL sell sex. Secrets just happened not to pay the tea money to the Boys in Blue. Anyway, Secrets has a history of dicking over biz partners, so I guess this is karmic reward?

I just wish Thailand would come up with one policy. Either paying for sex is legal or it isn't. In the meantime, the corrupt police will allow anybody who pays the requisite fees to thrive and arrest the rest.

Paying for sex is legal, as well as receiving money for sex.

Too obvious solicitation, pimping and any business extracting revenues from prostitution isn't.

Correct. I wonder why people persist in stating that paying for sex is illegal in Thailand when it isn't?

I would imagine it is because most posts about Pattaya have an anti sex agenda and those people have never been to Thailand let alone Pattaya. You see them a lot in the general forum too complaining about how bad the old guys are.

[thaibeachlovers]

I'm wondering whether the raid had anything to do with the current visit to Pattaya by the Home Secretary, Chalerm, or the forthcoming visit to Pattaya by the PM, Yingluck Shinawatra...

Most of the bars charge a bar fine as compensation for the bar losing a member of staff for the night (similar to the EWR (Early Work Release) in The Philippines), what the two do afterwards is purely a matter of negotiation between them. It could be a game of tiddlywinks (though some of the girls are rather naughty and tiddle when they should be winking). Of course this is rather unlikely and all bar owners know what actually goes on, but it gives them "plausible deniability".

You gotta be kidding! One does not bar fine the staff one bar fines bar girls. Except ..... I don't think I should go into it, too specific might offend some some people. Well I guess I could say that staff are not meant to be bar fined except sometimes when...... and bar girls are meant to be barfined. Normally in some places at least it's easy to tell the difference, look up on the stage at the people trying to shake those things off. Well at least before certain times. Look up on the wall for those big signs.

Unless things have changed since I've been "off the market", it is indeed possible to barfine the service girls. The only time it wouldn't be possible would be if too many had already been barfined, and that would apply to the dancers as well ( referring to Gogos ). THe ordinary barbeers would only have the mamasan and the cashier that couldn't be barfined.

[marinediscoking]

I think Howard is now being confused as being the "impregnated 14 year old maid".

[manarak]

Has Larry left Secrets?

[Jayman]

Who's Larry?

[flyingsporran]

I love the way the fabricated story about the underage maid has changed from being a 14 year old to a 16 year old in the "update" and now some BREAKING NEWS, take a look at the PT article and I am now appearing as the author. I quote:

"HOWARD MILLER CRIME SUPPRESSION DIVISION, CSD 19.06.2012 02:18"

So are they implying I was behind the raid.........are they implying I was the author of the article.....Are they implying I am somehow connected to the CSD......hilarious!

Yes and what about the Penthouse which advertises here as Pattaya's 'Adult Hotel'?

[Jayman]

I love the way the fabricated story about the underage maid has changed from being a 14 year old to a 16 year old in the "update" and now some BREAKING NEWS, take a look at the PT article and I am now appearing as the author. I quote:

"HOWARD MILLER CRIME SUPPRESSION DIVISION, CSD 19.06.2012 02:18"

So are they implying I was behind the raid.........are they implying I was the author of the article.....Are they implying I am somehow connected to the CSD......hilarious!

Yes and what about the Penthouse which advertises here as Pattaya's 'Adult Hotel'?

good point.. as I remember you could watch the gogo on CCTV in your room and order birds up from the front desk. For sure that gogo it attached to the hotel.. And foreign owned.

[KeyserSoze01]

Who's Larry?

He is the manager of Secrets that was arrested on pandering charges. Please do try to keep up.

[Jayman]

Who's Larry?

He is the manager of Secrets that was arrested on pandering charges. Please do try to keep up.

oohhh Larry.. Now I follow... My next question was going to be .. What about Larry?.. but you have stole my thunder... thanks mate.

But seriously though.. what's with all that bad words towards Larry? Seems those that know him only speak well of him. Did he poop in someones hat or something?

Edited June 21, 2012 by Jayman

[Thaddeus]

I love the way the fabricated story about the underage maid has changed from being a 14 year old to a 16 year old in the "update" and now some BREAKING NEWS, take a look at the PT article and I am now appearing as the author. I quote:

"HOWARD MILLER CRIME SUPPRESSION DIVISION, CSD 19.06.2012 02:18"

So are they implying I was behind the raid.........are they implying I was the author of the article.....Are they implying I am somehow connected to the CSD......hilarious!

Yes and what about the Penthouse which advertises here as Pattaya's 'Adult Hotel'?

good point.. as I remember you could watch the gogo on CCTV in your room and order birds up from the front desk. For sure that gogo it attached to the hotel.. And foreign owned.

By a succession of different foreigners.

[pauljones]

Larry should be forgiven. Hundreds of nearby businesses openly doing the exact same thing.

Some are operated by Police in fact.