Thailand - A Man'S World?

[Krupnik]

I think this is the most appropriate forum for this topic, but I’m interested in opinions from men as well as women. Thailand brings out the feminism in me which I never knew I had. I’m a farang woman living here and I have a Thai boyfriend of many years. I love my boyfriend deeply and hope that we will get married and live in Thailand together forever. Thailand is my chosen place to live and every place has it’s pitfalls but its true – isn’t it? It is a man’s world in a way that it isn’t when we are in the western world.

The first thing in particular that bothers me so much is that it’s OK for a man to have a wife and a bit on the side (mia noi.). A number of my boyfriend’s friends are in this situation and for me it is ludicrous that they can come out one night with the wife and the next night with the mia noi. Everyone else seems oblivious to it and I find myself having to act the same. It annoys me that my boyfriend is not more disapproving of these kinds of relationships but what can I do? I have to try to remember that it is his culture that he has known and been brought up in and I have to be grateful for the fact that he doesn’t have and never has had a mia noi (of course, if he did, we wouldn’t be together.) He seems to think it’s OK because everyone is OK (meaning, the wife and the mia noi know about each other) but I know that they can’t really be OK. The only one who is OK is the cheating husband! Western men, don’t do this, but perhaps they would, if their wives were OK with it, and maybe I’m naïve to think otherwise.

Recently while we were out with friends a guy and his girlfriend turned up whom only knew a couple of people. He was introduced to the men, but his girlfriend was not introduced to anyone and nor was I. This seems the social norm for Thais.

Often while we are out the girls will sit there and pour the guys’ drinks and themselves water, waiting to be spoken to. Now, for me, I do my bit, I cook, clean the house, I’ll even pour the drinks too. Mine included – not water, but the same as the men. I’m also not going to sit there like a second class citizen or accept a mia noi situation.

We all know that sexism went out in years ago in the Western World I wonder if the same can ever happen in Thailand. Mostly, I hope the acceptance of a mia noi situation will cease because it makes me sick.

I’m interested how others think about this...

Thanks!

[Deserted]

There's many ways of looking at it. Without sounded supercilious, I would say that Asia as a whole is a man's world. If you came here expecting equality, be it sexual or racial you have made a mistake. If it bothers you that much you should question whether you should stay in Asia.

[Lite Beer]

It works both ways.

A foreign lady with a Thai husband can stay in Thailand long term under Thai Immigration rules much easier than a Foreign man with a Thai Wife.

I also know a few Thai Ladies with Gicks.

[David48]

Apologies for all the male responses ... but Thailand is a total package ... you just can’t pick out the bits you like.

Works the same for us blokes.

[Krupnik]

Thanks for your comments guys. Yeah, I was aware of the inequality issue here and I think I am already quite accepting of it, it's the mia noi part of it that particularly bothers me, I still live with it when we go out, just won't accept it in my own relationship. A gig is different isn't it? It's just casual sex, I don't like that either but that's up to them. No-one makes any promises so no-one gets hurt. But a mia noi goes a little deeper than inequality doesn't it?

[Bangkokhatter]

I find the whole mia noi / gik set up quite bizarre. I used to go drinking with a Thai bloke that was married, only met his wife once, but must have been introduced to about 4 different ladies over a period of time. In the end i got bored with his constant talk about other women. He was always on the look-out for another one.

It does seem accepted though as the norm here, as long as wife no.1 does not find out. Thats another bizarre concept cos the wife, although not confronted with it, certainly knows it's likely that her husband has one.

[Krupnik]

I find the whole mia noi / gik set up quite bizarre. I used to go drinking with a Thai bloke that was married, only met his wife once, but must have been introduced to about 4 different ladies over a period of time. In the end i got bored with his constant talk about other women. He was always on the look-out for another one.

It does seem accepted though as the norm here, as long as wife no.1 does not find out. Thats another bizarre concept cos the wife, although not confronted with it, certainly knows it's likely that her husband has one.

Yeah, sure she knows right - but what can she do? It's not like she can just find another one who doesn't cheat. That will be hard. Unless he is a western guy..

[simple1]

I'm a male living in Thailand with Thai wife. Aside from the sexual side of a Mia Noi relationship, my understanding is it's a status issue for Thai men.

[Boo]

out of mr boos large male friend group only one has mia noi, she is never invited out & we would not be expected to socialise with her. we know he has one but he doesn't flaunt her in anyone face. his wife is aware of her & accepts it (for her own reasons) & his friends often joke around with him for having a mia noi.

as for being treated like a 2nd class citizen around his mates, when we go out, his friends are attentive to me, pouring MY drinks as much as I might pour theirs, they run off for food, make sure to ask me if I want anything at the local 7 etc, talk & joke with me & if anything they pay more attention to me than mr boo does , some of the thai gf's tend to follow the traditional habit, not drinking, sitting apart etc but I have found they are the more casual gf's, the serious or long term sit with the men too on nights out.

My advice, act as you would at home, you aren't thai, don't act like one, if you want to sit with the boys, do it, if you bf doesn't like it tell him to stick it. as for the mia nois, blank them, not your job to make them feel welcome.

[TommoPhysicist]

Feminism and monogamy are not the same thing.

Feminism is about equal rights, value and status for women.

Applying feminist rules In Thailand (which is not a monogamous society), merely means you too, as a woman, can have lovers on the side. Which many Thai women do.

Introductions with your male friends, "Hi guys, this is my wife/gf/mia noi/rental for the night", see the difficulty? Easier not to bother really. Bringing a partner out for a night with the boys is a bit of a social no no. Your SO was out of order to put you (and his friends) in to the situation you described. If one guy introduces a wife and another guy introduces a lover, the girls will fight because of status differences. (read Boo's last line, see what I mean)

Not drinking alcohol, is a Buddhist thing. Many men don't do it either.

OK so women pouring drinks for men is a bit of a sticky wicket, but generally men don't take the wives out much, and the lady in a Thai bar pouring drinks is employed to do that (and a few other things). Most Thai wives object to that sort of woman pouring drinks for their hubby, and so, edge the paid help out by doing it themselves.

Edited June 18, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[mike123ca]

Until the Thai women start to demand to have the same exact rights as Thai men otherwise this is the society you get.

[NBD]

My impression is that Thai women don't really want the same rights as Thai men, and are quite happy with what we in the west would call a more traditional role. The mia noi phenomenon is a strange thing, but it's not all that uncommon in the western world on some level, though not necessarily as overtly sexual, for a man to have a younger female confidant of some description.

I'm not so convinced that the western model of thinking that we're all the same apart from a few organs has produced such a healthy society anyway. I am a man however, so that might just be self interest talking.

[bina]

not drinking , a buddhist thing?!.........so far have only met two thai men who dont drink, one for khao pansa and one cause he really doesnt drink... even a pi/nong of hubby, 8 years a monk, de robed, arrived here last yea r to work, drinks like fish, had girlfriends all over, etc.

i never pour for the guys, its a guy thing cause its the guys giving each other the drink, its not like mixing maritnis and handing them all around; the drink thing is like a 'face' thing.. one guy gives an other guy, that guy has to drink or else there are insults. then that guy also has to pour and pass to someone (usually to 'heads' high status, good friends, settling a deal, or someone who has become a pi/nong (blood brother type)... then everyone else. and as u say, good girls dont drink, at least not when on a night out with the boys..

i always get offerred, usually decline (super cheap vodka is nasty tasting, but will slurp some beer from time to time. wine btw goes well with being an older wife).. thais not only dont introduce wifes and girlfriends, for the most part they dont introduce eachother... hubby (not very good with names anyhow) says that often no one knows the name of the person sitting with them, but they do know what changwat/muu baan he is from, and usually that he is someoens' pi/nong relationship... more often then not, they are 'the guy who cuts hair' or 'the guy who makes noodles' or etc.....btw, the pi/nong always pay more attention to me then hubby as boo says...

as for mia nois: here, overseas, ti is a standard state of living, i always know who the mia nois are since i sit with them (they are usually filipinas who speak english, the few thai women sit like clams, speaking neither thai or anything else, and they get introduced to me as 'big sister or little sister'... when ever i photograph the guys, they dont take hard copy, and they wipe out their cell phones when going home for a home visit.. btw, i was , amost 8 years ago, a mia noi for something like four years to a nong khai thai worker (sweet and a drunk,gambler, but good hearted), and the wife back home knew as i sent her and kids care packages, but again, specific situations for specific times and needs. history doesn always repeat itself. however, here also keeping a mia noi is considered expensive, status, and of course, for sanook... mutually supportive ... in thailand the story would be different.

my husband btw asked me permission, we discussed , i named criterion, no one met them (easier then saying no... and its a case of pots and kettles, or self worth and need) and yes, i considered it... that would be for an other thread some other time...

but yes, all in all, thailand is a masculine oriented society; as i s israel in many many ways (just hidden under new age, yuppie progressivish type rhetoric. we are still very orietal, near eastern even among the hi so city types)so i guess ive gotten used to it in one way or another.... pink is stil the only colour sandal u can find for a little girl. blech!!

bina

israel

[MrRealDeal]

It's not just Thailand it's an Asian thing .... From Japan to China and all points inbetween ..... and yes not drinking is a Buddhist thing just one not many people are good at.

Have you ever seen the pictures in a gym shpwing how to use the equipment ...... It says "Man equipment" lol ..... when I saw that once I thought of all the women in the usa that would rip it off the wall ! lol

But it's a different cluture and it seems to work prety well for them ..... but I am a man ! lol

Women and Men are different , different does not mean equal , in fact different means the opposite of equal. When women and children start complaining that they are the first to be saved in a shipwreck and demand equality to be saved in whatever order they get to the saving point I will believe they really want equality , until then I will believe what they really want is equality when it serves them and preferential treatment when that serves them. How about fighting for equality in paying for dates ? How about 50 percent of the couples where the woman buys the engagement ring ? How many femenists hold the door for a man ? Why are femenists not outraged that female recruits don't have to do equal excersize in the military, police academy, or fire departments ? Why can a single woman get welfare but not a single man ? ........ why ? Because they are different and not equal and therefore are treated differently as it should be. (the welfare thing aside becasue thats a mystery to me) But you won't find a femenist saying it's unjust will you ?

My point is that women deserve equal rights under law , but not always exactly equal treatment everywhere else , and recognising this makes the world a more harmonious place not a lesser place. Most women actually like it when a man opens the car door , and treats them like a woman not like there beer drinking buddy ,,,,,,,,,,,, so be carefull what you wish for unless you want to change the oil in the car , take out the trash, chase the snake away , lift heavy objects , open the lid on the jar , paint the house , mow the lawn , fix the plumbing , and other various and sundry unpleasant tasks that men do , 50 percent of the time in an "equal" world.

Edited June 18, 2012 by MrRealDeal

[Krupnik]

Tommo, thanks for your reply. I just don't see it though, with regards to introductions, how hard is it, to say this is *whatever their name is*? I see your logic but I don't think Thais think like that. Thais are hardly tactful! I think it's a case of the women just aren't seen as important enough to be introduced.

As for the buddhist thing, that I can't see at all. All of his friends are buddhist, every single one, and all of the men drink - and most of the women don't. It's like Bina said, women who drink are seen as not good girls, it's not about religion.

Thanks for your reply and advice Boo. When we go out he is always attentive to me, I don't mean to say otherwise, it's more the way that I see his friends treat their girlfriends. Sometimes the guy goes off and ignores her, leaves her sitting alone for hours - even when she doesn't know anyone. I wonder how she can put up with it. I wouldn't!

I try to ignore the mia nois, but it's also hard to know who is a mia noi and who is not! I spent a long time being nice to his good friend's girlfriend until I found out she was actually just a mia noi. It horrified me, when I realised, to be quite frank. These days I ignore her, although I feel a bit mean and sorry for her as I know it wasn't really her fault for getting in to the mess but she should know better and have more dignity self-respect.

[Carry]

Woah whats with the hostile attitude towards mia nois?! Espec. if u dont know what the deal is....so hard to be nice to someone you dont know [espec. when u also dont know the 'real' gf?!] pretty harsh to think u are so much better....

For the record, I am not a mia noi , nor does my husband have one [that I know of anyway ]

I am however always polite to the company me and my husband go out with, I dont think it is any of my business who his friends sleep with and I never think its hard to smile and have conversation with other women present, no matter what their status is.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Carry

[mike123ca]

It works both ways.

A foreign lady with a Thai husband can stay in Thailand long term under Thai Immigration rules much easier than a Foreign man with a Thai Wife.

I also know a few Thai Ladies with Gicks.

It works both ways.

A foreign lady with a Thai husband can stay in Thailand long term under Thai Immigration rules much easier than a Foreign man with a Thai Wife.

I also know a few Thai Ladies with Gicks.

Exactly because if the rules were exactly the same between Thai men and women, then we would either A) All foreign spouses would have to show money in the bank or have a job (Currently only applies to foreign husbands) or Only need Thai spouse signature and no financial requirements (Currently only applies to foreign wives).

The Thais should choose one law and let it be applied equally to both men and women.

[marstons]

Just be grateful despite not disapproving of his male friends having them that you have got the 1 out of the group who has not had and does not have a mia noi.Especially as its his culture and been brought up in it and he thinks its OK.

Its common for farangs wives to have a Thai husband or boyfriend, but if a wife of mine started hanging around with girls that did that, and she approved of it and said it was OK i would be very worried about the company she was keeping to the extent i would tell her to change her company or get lost.

If it bothers you that much stop going on the nights out with the boys with a wife one night and a mia noi the next, then he may change his attitude, maybe?

[Krupnik]

Carry - I know what you mean, it isn't fair to judge when we don't know the situation. In that particular one, I had actually met the wife (I hadn't realised who she was at the time!) and once I got to know her, I felt it was only fair to her, the one he actually married, to ignore the other girl. I have to say that I have to question the character of someone who can sleep with a man who is married to someone else, anyway, that's just me.

Marstons - thanks, not a bad idea. I'd hardly call it nights out with the boys though, it's just going to the pub/restaurant place in town that most of the locals go to. Usually, there is no way of knowing who might happen to turn up. Also, I don't want to cause a problem for my boyfriend.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Krupnik

[bina]

why would u ingnore a woman just because she is with someone who is or isnt married? i was, frankly, good freinds with a thai woman, a mia noi, a lovely woman who for whatever reasons wanted to be with P. P. has a wife. i met her and stayed in her house when i visiited thailand my first time (she thought I was the mia noi but treated me nicely all the same, only four years later someone told me about her mistake); N. the mia noi lives far away from P. and wife. apparently she has a child by him. he supports her. he supports his wife (financial support im referring to). N. was P. s mia noi for seven years here in israel until his visa finished and then hers. she was intellgent, nice, funny and older, which is why maybe she preferred the situation- she had a child, didnt have to bother with a full time husband, got fianncial support and was considered , btw, as a 'good girl' i.e. didnt smoke, drink , was actually actively buddhist in daily wei phra etc...

but that is neither here nor there; going out to a bar karoake IS considered a 'boy's night out'... hubby uses the word karoake to refer to bar/strip joints, not the same as here where it is for 30+ couples and cofffee.

i do the thai thing that if there is a guy in a group i dont like, i ignore. for the past year i dont go with hubby to all his moshav thai worker cronies and their get togethers as i am bored by the drinking smoking breakdown to shouting match style gatherings that 20-50 thai men usually turn into. and im bored by the filipinas who spend most of their time comparing financial notes about their boy friends, or complaining (rightly so) about their employers and wanting me to help. so i just dont go.

we make dates for when we do things together; and some things we do separately. i guess, with age, ie put feminist activism aside and just do 'real lifeism' - i put up with what i am willing to put up with, and either ignore or change what i dont like . mostly i ignore since u need partners for change (meaning the thai girls here, or the filipinas), and frankly, they have a vested interest in not changing. (shekels/$). im sure some of the girls work more then one guy. i dont care. if they are nice, fine. if not, i dont bother with them.

as for introductions, i dont bother. the only people i actively know are three guys that are here now who are from the same village and same extended family as hubby. they are the only ones he invites to the house, and the only ones we do trips together when possible.

bina

[Carry]

I still dont see how your judgement about Mia nois has anything to do with Thailand being a men's world...but that might be me

[Raesum]

The non introduction thing is not limited to girls/guys etc.Over the many years I have lived here hardly anyone bothers to introduce anyone else. Everyone goes around wai-ing etc but I have found that if I want to know a persons name-I ask them myself eg neices boyfriends, nephews girlfriends but then- naughtily- I don't necessarily introduce myself back 100% of the time.

As far as pouring the drinks-mostly we only drink with hubbys family so if my beer is empty then I wil go and get a new one andl take along the older brothers whiskey glass and the sisters and sister in laws glasses to replenish if need be.They do the same for me if I don't get in first quick enough.

[sbk]

Agreed, I don't get introduced but never ignored, a man who respects his partner will include her when she is sitting there and the men with him will understand this.

I should add that Thailand is hierarchical and a mia noi is not on the same level as a legal wife. Regardless of how egalitarian you feel, they do not and to treat her equally is to snub the wife.

[theblether]

To be abrupt your attitude to Mia Noi's is a whole lot of cultural baggage that you brought with you however!!!

I think it's more important to understand what is going through the Thai wife's mind. I get astounded at the reaction from my lady on this issue, as far as I can work out, and I may get flamed for this, Thai ladies don't particularly want their man to have a Mia Noi, ( as always there will be exceptions ), however based upon what my lady says, if the man decides to go down that path then " it's okay, because I am not perfect lady".

Now that may sound like a Man Heaven statement however I also my cultural baggage with me, and it knocks me back on my heels. Basically my lady is saying that if I want to get a gik or a Mia Noi it's because she's not adequate for my needs, and therefore she accepts the blame for that.

I mean, wow, try and explain that concept at a dinner party in the West.

Where does it come from? Is it a Buddhist teaching? Or merely cultural? I have no idea, though I hope someone here has the answer.

Your other issue of feeling marginalized, being a man I am normally the centre of attention when I'm in company with Thais. I felt my first girlfriend was overly attentive, overly dare I say, obedient? when we were out together. At first I was gobsmacked, I tried to pour my own drinks, take care of my own stuff but that wasn't allowed. There may have been one or two tense times when I thought this attentiveness was over the top, however eventually my then gf told me gently that I am her man, I look after her very good, and it is her duty to look after me. So I accepted it, and to be honest with you, I grew to love it.

I loved her gentleness and attentiveness, it allowed me to express my gentleness and attentiveness to her when appropriate, it made her happy to feel that she was looking after me, and I reciprocated. Excellent.

My current gf, who I'm highly committed too, is the same. I get highly amused when she holds my arm before crossing the road, like a mother with a child, and various other gentle moments. I love her little conspiracies, we will be in company with Thais and she will play along with the whole Thai culture thing then whisper me a little story, aside, or joke. However once again there is no chance of me pouring my own drinks etc.

I regard it as a bit of role playing, rather than interfere with Thai culture I go along with it. My lady knows what I think of her, and she knows I'm a gentleman, especially where she is concerned.

So you can regard this part of Thai culture as being submissive and offensive to you, however I suggest it's loving and gentle. Men adore being fussed over a little bit by their ladies, and I suggest that your man will pay you back in bucket loads for going along with that little bit of culture.

However, if he turns up with a Mia Noi one day, cut his balls off.

[ExpatJ]

Cheating/ having an affair is not seen as that big an issue in Thailand- the biggest victims tend to be foreigners who come with their western perception that 'cheating' is bad. In my @ 15 years of being in Thailand/Asia I would say that for 90% of farang/thai couples that i know (with both female and male farangs), the Thai partner has had a gik/minor wife or minor husband or other men/women on the side, the farang male partner sometimes cheats while the farang female partner cheats least of all- just my observations.

[sbk]

mmm.. in my experience this is changing and younger women in committed relationships are not happy with their husbands having gf and it does cause major marital issues. she may not leave but she does make his life hell. But then thats just my experience over many years seeing this kind of thing first hand. I do know men who have many mia nois but they are honest with the women from the get go. Its the ones who lie about it and sneak that get into trouble, since, as far as their wives are concerned, this is not what they signed up for.

[Chestnut]

I think times are slowly changing. Although I hear a lot of the old Gig-Stories and women - kind of - seem to accept it, many young women do not. They might put up with it for a while, but for most women I know the relationship failed sooner or later.

I don't know many Men who have Mia Nois... that might be because most of friends or aquaintances of me or my boyfriend aren't married yet. The only man with a Mia Noi (he got her pregnant) already split up with his wife, because of that. When his wife she accepted it at first, but finally broke things off. Her parents even moved to a different village (or so I heard) because they were embarrassed of the whole situation.

I know there is a lot of cheating going on in Thailand and of course I dislike it, but I would say my western male friends are just as bad... none of them having a Mia Noi, but many of them going to get an occasional massage or having a gig here and there.

To be on the bright side, I also know a few good (thai) guys, that don't cheat at all.

But yes, there are many situations in which women are not treated equally to men and Thailand, also, has brought up a feminism in me that I never thought I have!

[Krupnik]

To be abrupt your attitude to Mia Noi's is a whole lot of cultural baggage that you brought with you however!!!

I think it's more important to understand what is going through the Thai wife's mind. I get astounded at the reaction from my lady on this issue, as far as I can work out, and I may get flamed for this, Thai ladies don't particularly want their man to have a Mia Noi, ( as always there will be exceptions ), however based upon what my lady says, if the man decides to go down that path then " it's okay, because I am not perfect lady".

Now that may sound like a Man Heaven statement however I also my cultural baggage with me, and it knocks me back on my heels. Basically my lady is saying that if I want to get a gik or a Mia Noi it's because she's not adequate for my needs, and therefore she accepts the blame for that.

I mean, wow, try and explain that concept at a dinner party in the West.

Where does it come from? Is it a Buddhist teaching? Or merely cultural? I have no idea, though I hope someone here has the answer.

Your other issue of feeling marginalized, being a man I am normally the centre of attention when I'm in company with Thais. I felt my first girlfriend was overly attentive, overly dare I say, obedient? when we were out together. At first I was gobsmacked, I tried to pour my own drinks, take care of my own stuff but that wasn't allowed. There may have been one or two tense times when I thought this attentiveness was over the top, however eventually my then gf told me gently that I am her man, I look after her very good, and it is her duty to look after me. So I accepted it, and to be honest with you, I grew to love it.

I loved her gentleness and attentiveness, it allowed me to express my gentleness and attentiveness to her when appropriate, it made her happy to feel that she was looking after me, and I reciprocated. Excellent.

My current gf, who I'm highly committed too, is the same. I get highly amused when she holds my arm before crossing the road, like a mother with a child, and various other gentle moments. I love her little conspiracies, we will be in company with Thais and she will play along with the whole Thai culture thing then whisper me a little story, aside, or joke. However once again there is no chance of me pouring my own drinks etc.

I regard it as a bit of role playing, rather than interfere with Thai culture I go along with it. My lady knows what I think of her, and she knows I'm a gentleman, especially where she is concerned.

So you can regard this part of Thai culture as being submissive and offensive to you, however I suggest it's loving and gentle. Men adore being fussed over a little bit by their ladies, and I suggest that your man will pay you back in bucket loads for going along with that little bit of culture.

However, if he turns up with a Mia Noi one day, cut his balls off.

Thanks theblether, that's good advice. I do indeed try to fuss over him in a way that I probably wouldn't have done back in the west, infact, I make a conscious effort to do everything that I can for him - whether it be his laundry or an errand or whatever, it's easy for me anyway, as I'm not a lazy person and if I see something that that needs doing I'll do it without hesitation.

I think I have become accustom to most of the inequality issues anyway. But I won't ever relax my view on a mia noi.

Thanks sbk and Chesnut, I hope you are right, when you say that things are changing. I feel, maybe optimistically, that might be the case too. I see some women ending relationships, even marriages, because of a mia noi, I have much respect for them.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Krupnik

[farang000999]

my advice to the girl who started this topic is to get out now before you have a child. you sound delusional. your thai bf is not bothered by all his friends having mia nois and thinks it is "ok". how do you know he does not have one as well? do you really believe he will remain faithful forever? if u truly want a western style relationship i would recommend not marrying this guy. as an outsider, reading your comments, this is clear as day. i think you know the truth though, if even just subconsciously, which is probably what prompted you to start the topic. best of luck.

Edited June 22, 2012 by farang000999

[farang000999]

just to elaborate, i dont believe all thai men are cheaters but if all of his friends have mia nois and bring them about this often you have to be delusional to believe he is the lone wolf in the pack and that his attitude is not different when you are not around when he admits that he sees no problem with it at all. and not to be a jerk but it sounds like ur bf and his friends are low class.

Edited June 22, 2012 by farang000999