Bangkok BTS Proudly Achieves Tokyo-Grade Passenger Discomfort

[Deserted]

i remember riding the BTS on opening day long ago...it was free and of course the thais had never ridden a system like it before and couldn't figure out the turnstyles etc.....and it was too expensive without very many special passes etc and i remember lot of thai gals telling me "cheaper to ride bus or share taxi"... ...for the first year or so it was wonderfully empty most of the time so was sorta like having your own personal train to haul you around...then it changed, more passes and discounts and the thai people discovered it ....i also rode MRT the day it opened...seems it hasn't reached the levels of crowds of the BTS yet....

The BTS was so empty in the first year that some were saying that it was a white elephant and a complete waste of money - sort of what some said about the Airport Link when it opened the year before last - now the Cityline is also very crowded at peak.

You'll find that the MRT does get just as crowded as the BTS in peak, at some stations people have to wait a train or two before alighting.

Its sadly become a victim of its own success. I used to take the BTS all the time but seek alternative means whenever I can nowadays.

[Lakegeneve]

It would seem to be relatively simple to add more trains but i don't claim to understand what might be involved in that...so i just now try to avoid it during rush hours as best as possible..

Why have they put an extra carriage on the Silom line which only has eight stations? Would it not be better to put extra carriages on the Sukhumvit line which has twenty one stations? I suppose that's Thai mentality again.

There is a simple reason, you cannot use what you don't have.

The BTSC does not have sufficient rolling stock to service the current pax loads for the frequency required. The reason why ain't rocket science. A private operator which has been heavily indebted did not have the funds to purchase rolling stock when it was required, they in fact had to delay purchasing new trains 3 times.

Extra carriages will start to be delivered by Siemens from August this year so that all 35 3 car trains on the Sukhumvit line progressively become 4 car trains, that will help in the short term.

5 extra CNR made 4 car trains have been ordered and will arrive late 2013 for the Silom line WWY - Bang Wa ext which will open in two stages (S9 & S10: 5 Dec 12 - expect a delay, S11 & S12: 12 Aug 13). However, those trains won't be available until after the extension fully opens.

Even once those extra carriages are all in place by the end of 2013 (ie. 52 4 car sets - 35 Sukhumvit, 12 current silom plus 5 on order), it will be insufficient capacity for the expected 2013 patronage levels. Basically, the BTSC is running a few years behind what it should have for rolling stock and playing catch up all due to a lack of funds. An obvious limitation in having a private operator.

It should be noted that all BTS stations are built for 6 car trains which will be the reality probably by the end of the decade.

[Lakegeneve]

Here are a couple of quotes, with info on the rolling stock problem, from a debate on another TV forum;

The original plan circa 99 called for extra rolling stock by 03/04 when it was originally thought the WWY ext would opne and works would commence on the Chongsi to Rama III ext and the Mo Chit to Kaset ext.

However, BTSC didn't have the funds due to a singificant amount of debt and of course due to a combination of Thaksin wanting to nationalise the BTSC and the WWY ext being delayed, no exts were completed for a few years. BTSC thought they could purchase new rolling stock in 05 but they had to complete a debt restructuring which took some time so it was not until 07 that the 12 CNR sets were ordered.

Delivery was meant to be Jan 09 which was delayed until Oct 09 which was delayed further until June 10 and finally they eventually went into service at the end of 2010.

Thus, plain and simple, the extra rolling stock which should have been purchased for 03/04 was not, due to a lack of funds. Thereafter, the planned purchase in 05 was delayed until 07 due to debt restructuring and no avail funds (some politics involved as well - Taksins nationalisation plan of the BTS in 06). Then, that order in late 07 (cost US$70m) was further delayed due to late payments by BTSC and then CNR not delivering on time. So rolling stock was nearly 2 years late being Dec 2010 instead of early 09. So in total that is 6 years delay due to a lack of funds. And that was only for a quarter of the needed rolling stock.

The current order for 35 1 car sets from Siemans (US$50-) for all of the current 3 car sets on the Suk line was also a few years later than planned due to a lack of funds. The recently placed order for 5 more CNR 4 car sets for the WWY ext was also placed late which means they won't be delivered on time prior to the ext opening in Dec 2012. Add in the current order to reach the full 47 sets of 4 cars and that is 9 years delay due to a lack of funds.

I can post numerous articles from the last 7 years where the BTSC states they have had to delay purchases due to a lack of funds. Would that help?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/535008-morning-on-the-bts/page__st__25

[JohnAllan]

A pity there is so much truth in the irony!

Of serious concern is what happens when - not if - an accident occurs. Do the staff know who would be in charge? Does whoever would be in charge know the emergency procedure? Does whoever would be in charge arrange regular emergency-training sessions? Has anyone, in fact, been designated as in charge? Is there, in fact, any emergency procedure? Or training?

Does senior management, in fact, have any clue at all as to what should - never mind will - happen when such an emergency does inevitably arise? Scrub that! Senior management hasn't a clue, period!

[JohnAllan]

It would seem to be relatively simple to add more trains but i don't claim to understand what might be involved in that...so i just now try to avoid it during rush hours as best as possible..

Why have they put an extra carriage on the Silom line which only has eight stations? Would it not be better to put extra carriages on the Sukhumvit line which has twenty one stations? I suppose that's Thai mentality again.

There is a simple reason, you cannot use what you don't have.

The BTSC does not have sufficient rolling stock to service the current pax loads for the frequency required. The reason why ain't rocket science. A private operator which has been heavily indebted did not have the funds to purchase rolling stock when it was required, they in fact had to delay purchasing new trains 3 times.

Extra carriages will start to be delivered by Siemens from August this year so that all 35 3 car trains on the Sukhumvit line progressively become 4 car trains, that will help in the short term.

5 extra CNR made 4 car trains have been ordered and will arrive late 2013 for the Silom line WWY - Bang Wa ext which will open in two stages (S9 & S10: 5 Dec 12 - expect a delay, S11 & S12: 12 Aug 13). However, those trains won't be available until after the extension fully opens.

Even once those extra carriages are all in place by the end of 2013 (ie. 52 4 car sets - 35 Sukhumvit, 12 current silom plus 5 on order), it will be insufficient capacity for the expected 2013 patronage levels. Basically, the BTSC is running a few years behind what it should have for rolling stock and playing catch up all due to a lack of funds. An obvious limitation in having a private operator.

It should be noted that all BTS stations are built for 6 car trains which will be the reality probably by the end of the decade.

Hardly! The decade ends in 2020 - or, strictly speaking, 2019. It's taken them 13 years to reach their current point of operational incompetence, so it'll be an achievement if all lines are, by then, up to five cars.

[JohnAllan]

i remember riding the BTS on opening day long ago...it was free and of course the thais had never ridden a system like it before and couldn't figure out the turnstyles etc.....and it was too expensive without very many special passes etc and i remember lot of thai gals telling me "cheaper to ride bus or share taxi"... ...for the first year or so it was wonderfully empty most of the time so was sorta like having your own personal train to haul you around...then it changed, more passes and discounts and the thai people discovered it ....i also rode MRT the day it opened...seems it hasn't reached the levels of crowds of the BTS yet....

The BTS was so empty in the first year that some were saying that it was a white elephant and a complete waste of money - sort of what some said about the Airport Link when it opened the year before last - now the Cityline is also very crowded at peak.

You'll find that the MRT does get just as crowded as the BTS in peak, at some stations people have to wait a train or two before alighting.

But the MRT was better planned. And that's saying something.

[JohnAllan]

Hahah, very good article :-D

BTW I go to work by MRT and BTS. For me MRT is far worst, maybe because I take MRT before and it's already 8:30 when I use BTS. The days I need to take MRT earlier around 7:30 I have to wait 4 or 5 trains until I can get in even with the great frequency. Maybe I am lucky but I never had to wait for the next BTS (fingers crossed)

I can only think your BTS timing is exquisite.

[Narratio]

Nice piece of humour george, now do one on the Bangkok bus service.

[GreenSnapper]

A pity there is so much truth in the irony!

Of serious concern is what happens when - not if - an accident occurs. Do the staff know who would be in charge? Does whoever would be in charge know the emergency procedure? Does whoever would be in charge arrange regular emergency-training sessions? Has anyone, in fact, been designated as in charge? Is there, in fact, any emergency procedure? Or training?

Does senior management, in fact, have any clue at all as to what should - never mind will - happen when such an emergency does inevitably arise? Scrub that! Senior management hasn't a clue, period!

The security guys have whistles. Isn't that enough?

[davey26]

So some passengers are concerned about waiting for 2-3 trains to pass before they can get in? Get over it! Why are you in such a hurry? Late for work? Well leave 5 mins earlier from home.

The trains are very frequent, can't understand the problem. And as westerners, majority are slightly larger, so just muscle your way in. Or would you rather spend and extra 1hr in BKK traffic? (then they would complain about Bkk drivers). Can't please some people hey?

Melbourne is supposedly the no.1 city to live? Try catching a train peak hr there. Can't even get their ticketing system right, and they charge you a fortune to ride piss smelling and graffited trains! Not to mention the violence of some passengers, and the rough moron conducters!

I love the BTS, cheap, clean and plenty of eye candy.

[atyclb]

BTS / MRT are even more special than Japans system due to countless passengers zombie walking style, obstructing escalators and walkways, failing to keep to one side allowing others to walk, jumping queue's, walking directly into those exiting trains, slow motion entering/exiting trains while using mobiles, etc etc. I forgot to mention the at times annoyingly loud audio volume on the train tv's.

[skorchio]

I think the Skytrain is a concrete work of Art. To construct such a masterpiece in a modern city which was already overbuilt before they even started building is amazing. It must have been unbearable living there during the work. This could never have hapened in a european captial. If the BMA could get skywalk along the full length of Sukvt and surrounds, I would consider living in BKK. I hope the BMA keeps adding to the network. I took the train from the aiport into town earlier this year during a 5 hr flight layover - 45 mins from leaving the aircraft to stepping off the train on Sukvt. And the same to get back to the airport. I applaud the speed, effiiency, the price. This is not possible in most other capitals. Thailand is getting its sh1t together in this regard. Bravo and keep up the good work.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Yes BTS and MRT are world-class, BRT not bad either.

Maybe if they allowed a 10B price rise inside the core 20B outside, coupled with accelerating the expansion. . .

[Dap]

Thanks George. Made my day.

[meand]

There should be a crackdown on BTS passengers, who still try to enter trains, even if they are full already.

I have run the gamut on this. It really isn't as simple as you say.

1) when a guy has to force his way on, he knows he will have to do it, might as well be sooner than later

2) everybody has paid the same fair essentially, nobody has any more right to the space than anybody else

3) you are going to get wedged in to the maximum degree at some point anyway, so why expect somebody to wait for the next equally full train?

Anyway, I used to feel like you, now I feel for the guys that live at sau thong lo in the morning... there is just no way for them except to lodge themselves on. It is bts' fault essentially, not the riders'.

[Razzler1973]

Wonder when the groping will start...

When I arrive in a couple of weeks

[LuckyLew]

Wonder when the groping will start...

Totster

It is called "caressing" if the other person smiles

[meand]

Wonder when the groping will start...

Totster

It is called "caressing" if the other person smiles

Many times I have waited for the next train on crowded days, and then look to see maybe 4 or 5 others down the line who have done the same. All hot chicks. ha. When things get close they are def at a disadvantage.

[Nigel1500]

Having lived in Tokyo and attended highschool in Japan I find this story difficult to believe. For a start, trains on many of the lines in Tokyo, as well as the subways, are 12-15 cars long. On the Yamamote line the time between trains is often as little as 30 seconds. Trains have 4 pairs of doors on each side while Skytrain only has 3 pairs. I've travelled on the subway in Tokyo on days when my feet didn't touch the floor because we were packed in so tight. In Tokyo they've even introduced women-only cars to improve privacy on overcrowded trains.

I don't deny that BTS is crowded and popular, but these guys ARE having themselves on when they make such claims.

[pitrevie]

There appears to be enough room to allow the OP to take pictures.

[Stjohnm]

“As of now, our valued customers can ride the BTS knowing that they are packed in as tightly and miserably as commuters in some of the world’s most advanced cities like Tokyo and Osaka,” said Keeree Kanjanapas, CEO of the BTSC, citing just-released numbers that estimate the average cubic-meter/passenger average of BTS trains to be .19 during peak usage, on par with the .157 average of Tokyo’s most crowded subway lines during weekday rush hours.

“This is a great achievement for Thailand and the Thai people,” he added.

Its not something to be proud of. It highlights the fact the trains are too infrequent with not enough passenger capacity.

The Piccadilly Line on the London Underground during rush hour has a Ten car train arriving at 30-40 second intervals, they're always packed, On the BTS even during peak times some trains are 5 or 6 mins apart, and still far too short, but because some plank bought (or was bribed to) buy the wrong rolling stock we're stuck with them.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Stjohnm

[Lakegeneve]

The Piccadilly Line on the London Underground during rush hour has a Ten car train arriving at 30-40 second intervals, they're always packed, On the BTS even during peak times some trains are 5 or 6 mins apart, and still far too short, but because some plank bought (or was bribed to) buy the wrong rolling stock we're stuck with them.

Sorry but what you has written is either patently untrue or unintentionally misleading. The BTS has many problems which should be highlighted but discerning analysis with facts is always preferable to wild speculation, don't you think?

No metro in the world operates at under 1min headway, the most frequent, such a Moscow or HK, may do 85-90secs and some driverless lines can potentially operate at 65-75secs.

Really where did you pull 30-40secs out of the air from??? If the Piccadilly line was doing that it would be highly unsafe and suicidal. I believe if is more like 110-120s at peak, don't know that any Tube line can do more than 30-35 trains p/h. Piccadilly line hasn't even been upgraded yet so you have to wait a while until new signalling is introduced but even then 90s would be amazing. You should call Transport of London immediately to let them know.

It is true only on the Silom line that the headways times are 4.50 at peak (they used to be 2.40 prior to the opening of the WWY ext). The Sukhumvit line has a headway 2.20 to 2.40 at peak.

It is not a rolling stock issue on the Silom line, it is the issue with the single track at Saphan Taksin and a little to do with the signalling, nothing more. (The previous closed Siemens signalling system on the Silom line was changed for an open Bombardier system which had many glitches when the WWY opened and then again after the CNR 4 car sets were introduced). Hence the reason why the BMA says they want to demolish what was always meant to be a temporary station. You might wish to take a few mins to inform yourself and read some of this thread esp post #65, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/559468-bangkok-to-close-saphan-taksin-skytrain-station-to-ease-bottleneck/page__st__50

The CNR 4 car set rolling stock, 12 sets with 5 more to come, have problems but they were primarily purchased as they were much cheaper than the Siemens sets. There in lies the real reason - as I detailed earlier. The heavily indebted BTSC just hasn't had adequate funds to purchase sufficient sets of rolling stock to match growing pax numbers.

As for bribery, well in both Thailand and China we all assume that it is part of normal business operating costs don't we? Nothing new there.

[belg]

are they nuts? discomfort is great?

miracle thailand

[besth]

still a better experience than in most similar transports in Europe. at least in Bkk most people have showered and you may be lucky enough to be stuck against a cute girl (who would obviously describe her experience much differently)

[jinjinswing]

Thais export everything japanese or hadnt you noticed?

[jinjinswing]

ps...just got back from Japan, have to say the train travel is more comfortable but there stations are a maze, too much information everywhere and yet none applied to me

[besth]

Nice piece of humour george, now do one on the Bangkok bus service.

Bangkok bus service? oxymoron time now?

[Sayonarax]

Ride a bike. Its quicker.

[think_too_mut]

Poor George. He has not traveled much and brought this junk article to the admiring public, as a teenage googler.

Mickey Moyse BTS does as much ferrying per month as most (of many) of Tokyo rail companies do per day.

2 million passengers through Shinjuku station, daily. Daily, more than 4 months worth of the BTS mickey mouse chuggy on all stations together.

If BTS were in Tokyo, it would have had not only 4 carriages, it would have had a circular of 150km long ring composition bumper to bumper going around the city. And that would be only 1 line, out of dozens.

Edit; you can make a substandard rail system crowded anywhere, in Nairobi, without doing much value to the economy.

That's what mickey mouse BTS is. Incomplete, out of the needs, solved nothing about traffic jams.

The BTS is NOT a public transport system. More likely, a "manifestation of it".

Edited July 9, 2012 by think_too_mut

[nocturn]

Poor George. He has not traveled much and brought this junk article to the admiring public, as a teenage googler.

Mickey Moyse BTS does as much ferrying per month as most (of many) of Tokyo rail companies do per day.

2 million passengers through Shinjuku station, daily. Daily, more than 4 months worth of the BTS mickey mouse chuggy on all stations together.

If BTS were in Tokyo, it would have had not only 4 carriages, it would have had a circular of 150km long ring composition bumper to bumper going around the city. And that would be only 1 line, out of dozens.

Edit; you can make a substandard rail system crowded anywhere, in Nairobi, without doing much value to the economy.

That's what mickey mouse BTS is. Incomplete, out of the needs, solved nothing about traffic jams.

The BTS is NOT a public transport system. More likely, a "manifestation of it".

Im guessing you missed the satire.

people can be thick