Changing Name On Chanoot While There Is Bank Loan

[BngkkB]

Hello;

The situation as I understand it, which means of course their may be more to it than has revealed itself at this point.

The GF purchased a piece of land (Call it Land 1) a few years ago up North for approx 100,000. Baht (Her money). At the time of purchase, she put the Chanoot (sp) in her moms name as her mom was living up North at the time and the GF was living down South. The thinking behind this was that the mother could go to the bank and take out a loan to build a simple home. She thought since she was down South it would be easier for all paper work if the land was in her moms name.

From what has been told to me the mother took out a bank loan for 33,000.00 Baht to build the home and built a small home. The terms of the loan is that the payments are made on a one time yearly payment?. The bank is now holding the Chanoot that is her mothers name as collaterial on the loan, the loan is also obviously in her mothers name.

As expected from the title, the mother can not repay the loan to the bank and is asking the GF to pay the bank. Once the bank is paid she says she will sign over the Chanoot to the GF's name. I have my doubts that everything will work so simply.

Is there a way to get the Chanoot signed over to my GF's name along with the Bank loan at the same time? I am trying to protect the GF from paying off the loan for her mother then loosing out on the ownership of the land.

Now to complicate the situation a bit more. There is no access to the land. To access the land they must cross a smaller piece of land. This small piece of land (Call it Land 2), was supposably part of the deal. The Chanoot is in possession of the GF's uncle but is actually in a distant realatives name. The distant relative is an old lady that lives near the uncle. The lady has agreed to sign over the Chanoot but has yet to do so.

I have advised the GF not to go any further in dealing with Land 1, until the Chanoot for Land 2 is signed into her name. Which to be done is that the uncle has to go to the old ladies house and have her sign? My question about this is that does the GF have to actually be present during the Chanoot signing to have it put into her name? Or can the Uncle register the Chanoot for Land 2 into the GF's name for her?

So in summary my questions are:

1) Is it common for a bank to make a loan with repayments at a one time a year yearly payment over 10 years?

2) Can the uncle have the Chanoot for Land 2 signed into the GF's name with out her present?

3) Can the uncle do a search for any other loans against either property while at the land department while getting the Chanoot in the GF's name?

4) What is the best way to get the Chanoot for Land 1 that is being held as collaterial at the bank signed into the GF's name before she forks over the money for the loan?

5) Is it possible for the bank loan to be put into the GF's name before being paid off so as she can build a credit history with the bank?

Thank you in advance for all of your help.

B

[beano2274]

The bank will hold the Chanoot until the loan is paid by the loanee.

A way to go forward might be to get the Mother to sign over the responsibility of the loan to her daughter, thus letting her have the chanoot upon clearance of the debt.

[BngkkB]

beano2774,

That sounds like what I am looking for. Any more info you can give me on that?

1) Need a lawyer to draw that up?

2) Does the Bank have the paperwork on that?

3) Once the responsability for the loan is signed over does the Chanoot still need to be signed by her mother after the loan is paid or is the Chanoot signed over as the same time as that loan is signed over?

Thank You so very much,

B

[thaihome]

The first townhouse we purchased some years ago had a loan on it by the owners. My wife went with them to the bank the day before we went to the land dept to register the change in ownership. After paying off the balance of the loand, the bank handed my wife the papers so in effect she was holding the loan until the amount was deducted from the purchase price the next day when the land signed over at the land dept.

TH

[BngkkB]

Thank You both beano2274 and thaihome,

I guess I'm a bit confussed. You have both said that the bank will hand the Chanoot to my GF if she pays off the loan, (I'm summerizing). So does that mean if your in possesion of the Chanoot itself you hold title? Or does the Chanoot have to have your name on it? If just having possesion of the Chanoot means that you have ownership, does the GF's Uncle who actually is in possesion of the Chanoot for Land 2 have to have it signed over to my GF's name? Or can he just hand it to her? I would think that the legal owners name would have to have their name on the Chanoot and have it registered in the land office? But with people buying land that they do not have legal access to except across someone elses property doesn't make much sense and that seems pretty common.

Sorry for the ignorance but I have never researched ownership of land before as I know I can not have land in my own name.

Thank you again for all the help so far and look forward to getting more.

B

[soi41]

Why do Thai people just love to make life complicated ??

To make it very simple. Yes your GF has to be present at the land office. So go to Isaan (?), get your wife, her mother and the old lady (land2) in a pickup, go to the bank, pay the loan in full (quite a small amount), get the bankofficer in with the rest of the crew into pickup. Go to the landoffice where the bankguy first transfers the land back to your MIL, and she in her turn transfers it to your GF. The old lady transfers land 2 to your wife, and your GF will leave the landoffice with 2 chanotes in her name.

A little tax to be paid, but as the land is not very valuable, it is only going to be peanuts. Make sure that everyone involved in the transactions bring a VALID Thai ID and their Thabien Ban, so you don't have to go back.

BTW there is no such thing here as land without access, adjoining neighbours have allow access according to the law. Good luck

[BngkkB]

Soi 41,

Didn't know that you had to allow people across your land to access their land.

Thank you,

B

[thaihome]

Why do Thai people just love to make life complicated ??

To make it very simple. Yes your GF has to be present at the land office. So go to Isaan (?), get your wife, her mother and the old lady (land2) in a pickup, go to the bank, pay the loan in full (quite a small amount), get the bankofficer in with the rest of the crew into pickup. Go to the landoffice where the bankguy first transfers the land back to your MIL, and she in her turn transfers it to your GF. The old lady transfers land 2 to your wife, and your GF will leave the landoffice with 2 chanotes in her name.

A little tax to be paid, but as the land is not very valuable, it is only going to be peanuts. Make sure that everyone involved in the transactions bring a VALID Thai ID and their Thabien Ban, so you don't have to go back.

BTW there is no such thing here as land without access, adjoining neighbours have allow access according to the law. Good luck

That’s about right, except I don’t think the bank people have to go.

To be honest, I think the OP is the typical farang that thinks Thias can’t do a simple land transaction without his guidance and attempts to control the whole process. He fails to realize that the thousands of such transactions happen every day in Thailand without the slightest help from any farang.

The people at the bank will know what to do, the people at the land dept know what do, his relatives likely know what to do as they have obviously bought, mortgaged, and sold land before. He is the only one that is unfamiliar with the process and he is trying to plan it.

TH

[BngkkB]

thaihome;

Not in the least! I actually don't want anything to do with it at all. It's just that the GF's family has not always been completely honest with her and are always hitting her up for money. She was trusting enough to sign the land over to her mother in the first place and now she has to pay off a bank loan that she never took out. So I am just trying to provide her with some insight on the procedure. As we are in Bangkok and she will have to fly up, by herself, to take care of it I would like to help her get an idea of everything that needs to be done ahead of time. She fully admits that she doesn't know all the in and outs of real estate dealings and unlike a lot of people is not ashamed to admit that this is out of her expertise. But she was smart enough to make the first 100,000 to buy the land and have enough in the bank to pay off her mothers loan. But again this is the only piece of land she has dealt with and she asked me if I could help. As I don't know anything about it I told her I would check on TV as there are many people that read this that have probably dealt with a situation like this previously.

So I really appreciate everyones input on the actually problem at hand. It's unfortunate that that you are pasting all farangs with the same brush.

Thank you again for all of your help.

B

[soi41]

Soi 41,

Didn't know that you had to allow people across your land to access their land.

Thank you,

B

Civil and Commercial code section 1387. Called servitude.

[PattayaPhom]

Personally, let the mother get on with it and look for another parcel of land that dosnt have bank loans, access right issues or any family ties. Not like its prime beachfront multimillion $$$$$ worth....You will pay 33,000 at least to get rid of the debt and bet your bottom $ will need to pay for access so dont bother

[BngkkB]

Soi 41,

Wasn't doubting you in the least, just thought it interesting. I look forward to reading about it. Thank you for providing the more specific information.

B

[LennyW]

Why do Thai people just love to make life complicated ??

To make it very simple. Yes your GF has to be present at the land office. So go to Isaan (?), get your wife, her mother and the old lady (land2) in a pickup, go to the bank, pay the loan in full (quite a small amount), get the bankofficer in with the rest of the crew into pickup. Go to the landoffice where the bankguy first transfers the land back to your MIL, and she in her turn transfers it to your GF. The old lady transfers land 2 to your wife, and your GF will leave the landoffice with 2 chanotes in her name.

A little tax to be paid, but as the land is not very valuable, it is only going to be peanuts. Make sure that everyone involved in the transactions bring a VALID Thai ID and their Thabien Ban, so you don't have to go back.

BTW there is no such thing here as land without access, adjoining neighbours have allow access according to the law. Good luck

Only if the land is a Chanote title, many lesser titles do not automatically grant access - pedestrian or vehicular, be aware!

[Heng]

Thank You both beano2274 and thaihome,

So does that mean if your in possesion of the Chanoot itself you hold title? Or does the Chanoot have to have your name on it? If just having possesion of the Chanoot means that you have ownership, does the GF's Uncle who actually is in possesion of the Chanoot for Land 2 have to have it signed over to my GF's name?

Physically holding on to a chanote doesn't really mean anything. The owner has his/her name on the back. If the bank is 'holding' the chanote as loan collateral, you can be sure that the current name on the back of the chanote is the bank itself. When the loan is repaid, the name on the back will be whoever took out the loan (the previous owner). I say 'previous' because the bank is the current 'owner.'

Some of the confusion may stem from the large volume of 'off the books' loans that occur in the country where people will hand over chanotes "as collateral" but those are really just a show of good faith as the action itself doesn't have any legal meaning.

[Heng]

Why do Thai people just love to make life complicated ??

To make it very simple. Yes your GF has to be present at the land office. So go to Isaan (?), get your wife, her mother and the old lady (land2) in a pickup, go to the bank, pay the loan in full (quite a small amount), get the bankofficer in with the rest of the crew into pickup. Go to the landoffice where the bankguy first transfers the land back to your MIL, and she in her turn transfers it to your GF. The old lady transfers land 2 to your wife, and your GF will leave the landoffice with 2 chanotes in her name.

A little tax to be paid, but as the land is not very valuable, it is only going to be peanuts. Make sure that everyone involved in the transactions bring a VALID Thai ID and their Thabien Ban, so you don't have to go back.

BTW there is no such thing here as land without access, adjoining neighbours have allow access according to the law. Good luck

Only if the land is a Chanote title, many lesser titles do not automatically grant access - pedestrian or vehicular, be aware!

Also, there are situations where 'access' does not have to be granted, even to chanotes, these are typically cases where a 'blind' or 'locked in' property has not been used or occupied for X years.

[how241]

Soi 41,

Didn't know that you had to allow people across your land to access their land.

Thank you,

B

Civil and Commercial code section 1387. Called servitude.

Thanks for that info.

[khunPer]

To my knowledge, the registration (move the land to another name) at the Land Department can be made by proxy - we have done that, with land we have bought. There is an official Thai standard proxy form available in book stores. Need stamps, which normally can be bought at the Land Department.

If you wish you pay the bank loan, you can make it (the balance) as a new loan on the Chanote deed and have it registered at the Land Department, just like a bank. That should also be possible with proxies. Maximum legal interest rate on private loans is 15% p.a.

To my knowledge, an uncleared access to even a Chanote land, may block your land. However, if you have used (the same) acces way via another plot for more than ten years, then you have legal access right. Better - and cheaper - to clear with the owner, than take legal action.

[BngkkB]

Thank you very much Heng and khunPer;

As I have never seen a Chanoote you have answered my a lot of my questions. More years than I would like to remember, I use to have a Mexican corporation, and the laws in Mexico said that I could only own 49%. So the stock certificate for the 51% I would have signed in blank sitting in my safe. Another words the person's name on the front of the certificate would sign the back of the certificate releasing the property to the above named person. But the above named person was left blank. So before I filled in the next persons name I would have them sign it in blank also. If the gardener only new he owned more of my company than I did?

So I am assuming that as long as the current land holder of Chanoote for Land 2 signs the back with my GF's name on it that will be good enough? Or does the current land owner have to actually sign it at the land department to be witnessed.? But until she goes there in person to work out everything with the bank in person on Land 1, she can get the proxy forms and send them to her uncle to take care of Land 2?

I am also assuming that if my GF goes to the bank with her mother she can either pay off the loan at one time or take out another loan with the property signed to her for collaterial.?

Thank you again so much to everyone for all of your help.

B

[khunPer]

BngkkB

To your first question.

Everything regarding to a plot of land has to made at the Land Department to be valid. The LD holds a semilar Chanote deed in their files, both deeds needs to be updated. You are actually talking about a land transfer from the previous owner to your GF, which needs registration at the LD. You will need to pay a (small) transfer fee and perhabs a (small) tax of the land value. The fees are normally each around 1% of land value/selling price.

The bank question in cannot answer completely, as I have never had a mortgage or loan in Thailand.

Try to ask in a/the bank, they will know the procedure. The bank will have their loan registered at the back of the land deed at LD, so they will need to unregister the loan at LD - actually transfer the land back to "the original owner" - if not, the bank is "the owner of the land".

Right of way to a plot, you can use a Servitute. That will be a document of Agreement with the owner of the land, giving you right to pass. The document need to be made in Thai (the only legal languange), but can be made in both English and Thai, but only the Thai words will have legal rights. Very often something is offered in return for a Servitute, can be money or may be to service or put concrete/tarmac on the road (mainly used, when the road service more than one plot). A Servitute can be registered at the LD on the back of the land deed, however the Agreement shall be valid without a registration, but you will need to go to Court, to claim your rights. You may need a lawyer to make a Sertute.

About 49% / 51%, the same law apply in Thailand. Nominees have often been used, but it is a question whether the setup is legal.