New Draconian Property Law To Deport Foreigners Who "Owns" Land Illegally

[stingray]

This law have also a good side:

I personally never understand why we foreigners buy property when it's illegal (exept condos). We know this already long time. It's anyway better to rent a house than block up a couple million Baht in a dam house, which we gonna lose sooner or later anyway. Almost every foreigner lost a house or 2. BTW in my opinion the properyt prices are to high anyway. I think foreigner forget sometime that we are living in LOS, not in Europe, but property prices are almost as high as in Germany for example.

Another thing: Land prices gonna fall 50 to 70% if no foregners would buy anything and rentals gonna be lower as well.

[Arkady]

Thank you very much for the advice. My wife isn't the bar girl type, thank goodness. I could put the land in her name without worrying, but I would like to put it in my (Thai-British) children's names. They have Thai ID cards. I'm wondering if the source of the money will be investigated since the authorities are so paranoid. I suppose I could make a legal document stating that the money is a present for them. I don't know though.

This should not be a problem, unless you plan to develop the land. Children as owners cannot apply for planning permission.

Under the Civil and Commercial Code the money could be considered as conjugal property that your wife, rather than you has gifted to the children. I don't think the transfer is taxable as would be gifts outside the family but would need to double check this. In practice there is not going to be any problem under existing laws with your kids owning the land, or you wife, if you both sign the appropriate declaration. The last time Mrs Arkady felt the urge to increase her land bank I was sitting in the Land Office waiting to sign the declaration when someone came up and asked the chief what the farang was doing sitting at his desk. The chief replied that the farang was there to buy land and needs to sign this declaration to make it legal. Mrs Arkady was in fact buying land upcountry but we went to sign the bumpf at our local land office in Bangkok where they are used to foreigners with Thai wives. I think it would have been OK upcountry too.

[Arkady]

This law have also a good side:

I personally never understand why we foreigners buy property when it's illegal (exept condos). We know this already long time. It's anyway better to rent a house than block up a couple million Baht in a dam house, which we gonna lose sooner or later anyway. Almost every foreigner lost a house or 2. BTW in my opinion the properyt prices are to high anyway. I think foreigner forget sometime that we are living in LOS, not in Europe, but property prices are almost as high as in Germany for example.

Another thing: Land prices gonna fall 50 to 70% if no foregners would buy anything and rentals gonna be lower as well.

If this law really happened, the effects on prices would only be felt in resort areas where foreigners buy villas with infinity pools.

[MAJIC]

No use trying to apply logic in anything that the Thai government does when it comes to foreigners, their xenophobic ways will never change.

And foreigners who does not know anything about anything, and who always just want to complain about thai culture and thai politics will never change either...

And Thais can't really own (take "possession" of) land in the UK because they are not allowed to live there. Comes to the same thing as barring Brits from owning land here. They are at least allowed to live here!!

What nonsense,there are 30,000 permanent Thai residents in the UK,all of which have the right to buy Land and property,in their own name.Please try and be factual.

Edited June 29, 2012 by MAJIC

[bangkokheat]

invest your money and rent, its safer and if you get sick of your neighbours then pack and move

[garydubbs]

Malaysia's "My Second Home" certainly contrasts with Thai policies. They actually welcome qualified foreigners, and no, they do not have a double price system for property transfer tax. They allow you to own a home on a plot of property together with a ten year renewable visa. You can buy a locally produced car tax-free, and work part-time. In return, Malaysia gets a substantial amount of foreign capital, consumer spending, etc. Malaysia may be somewhat conservative with respect to religion, but at least they are not xenophobic and short-sighted as is their neighbour to the north.

http://www.mm2h.gov.my/index.php

Also a hell of a lot richer.. Wonder how that happened..

[Arkady]

I've been listening to the TV Lawyers on here for years,who were smugly telling us: that they had their investments tied up in the company name,and could not be got at by anyone.

Unfortunately,they didn't understand that laws and Goalposts could be shifted at anytime,only owning 49% should have told the experts on company law something.

It became very clear in 2006 that the company window was being closed and it is now in fact rather difficult to do with a new purchase, since any foreign involvement in the company whatsoever should result in an investigation of the Thai shareholders' source of funds. Suspicion of foreign involvement, e.g. a Thai major shareholder being unable to explain why he just set up a company to buy a villa with infinity pool with no plans to do any business, can and does result in the land transfer request being declined.

I don't think anyone on TV has tried to deny what has happened since 2006 because it is a fact. However, I have seen a lot of posts along the lines of "No one has coming knocking at door yet, therefore my company land ownership structure must be OK".

If they want to go after these structures and the government decides to allocate resources to do so, it will be a very simple matter. They just need to list all land owned by companies and identify those with foreign directors and/or shareholders. Then a simple perusal of the accounts would reveal whether this is a real economic business large enough to justify owning residential property for a director to reside in. Most of the companies have no operating income (rental income is not classified as operating income in the accounts) and the foreign directors have no work permits. Even companies wholly owned by Thais that have no business and own a villa in a foreign tourist ghetto as their sole asset could be investigated with advantage to see if the Thai shareholders are nominees. Neither the Land Dept nor the Business Development Dept have had the resources or the inclination to do this but that may not always be the case. Of course, if they are going to hand out rewards, they could just sit back and wait for the reports to come in from the snitches. If this ever happens, don't be surprised to see the law firms, estate agents and developers given amnesty from prosecution if they snitch on their own clients.

However, I really doubt that there will be any strengthening of the law without a viable alternative being offered, such as 90 year leases, and time to restructure. The damage to the tourism industry and the real estate sector would be too damaging.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Arkady

[Screws]

Did anyone hear if moves are afoot to apply reciprocal legislation to non resident locals? ;-)

[BigSkip]

Foreigners are permitted to buy land in industrial estates because they generate income and employment.

We're nothing but walking ATMs to these people.

concur, couldn't say it any nicer

[Naam]

the "draconian law" is one of the usual lukewarm farts of wannabes that surface once in a while. Thai politicians and big shots who pull the strings are not as stupid as some of the resident (stupid) Farang experts think. they will not kill the goose that lays golden eggs. period!

[Naam]

I don't think anyone on TV has tried to deny what has happened since 2006 because it is a fact.

i deny it because four of my friends bought landed property during the past two years. your presented facts are fiction!

[RogueLeader]

"The new law includes a reward to anyone providing information about foreigners owning land through nominees. They will get 20% of the market price of that piece of land as a reward after the plot is sold,"

Are foreigners eligible for this reward... if so, I think I'll be dam_n rich pretty fast by providing infos :-)

Yes, but you'd have to leve the area forever if you did. Even in Thailand, no-one likes a grass.

Is it any wonder that Thais are increasingly seeing foreigners as a financial target to bent over and shaft vigorously without lubes, whether it be charging double for the white skin or stabbing them for their goods. When this is the example being set by their own government??

As far as i see it, the Thai children with a farang dad is a shitload more likely to own their own land/property than a child born of pure Thai extraction.

One million foreigners living here, I wonder how many Thai children will be inheriting land or property because of that figure?

How low would land prices be if foreigners were not buying it? Building land (infill) 50K baht per rai

I think that's the point: discouraging foreigners from buying up building and agricultural land (even if it's just that land that their nominee purchase house is built on) at inflated prices will avoid a land price bubble. Many European countries are now struggling with the consequences of such a bubble. If Thailand's lawmakers are doing this to prevent one, to secure land and food security for future generations and to stabilise the economy, then they are to be congratulated on their foresight.

There is, of course, a 'but'.

Laws are only as good as their enforcement, and it seems that there are some challenges in this area that are yet to be met.

[bangkokheat]

the "draconian law" is one of the usual lukewarm farts of wannabes that surface once in a while. Thai politicians and big shots who pull the strings are not as stupid as some of the resident (stupid) Farang experts think. they will not kill the goose that lays golden eggs. period!

I have to disagree with you, they are doing it on a daily basis

[Superdude]

If you want to purchase a house in Thailand, there are 3 main ways:

1 - Illegal way: Create a company with thai nominees. Every 2-3 years there are new enforcement of the law, in mid/long term you are sure to loose the land and money.

2 - Legal ways:

* Lease 30 years: Everybody has to know that you have NO garantee that the lease will be renewed after 30 years. After 30 years you may loose your good.

* Buy the land at the name of you thai wife, but if she is a prostitute, she will may ask 50% of the value of the house and leave.

For me there are few solutions:

- If you are single or living with a prostitute ( a girl who asks x bahts per week or per month): RENT !!!

- If you are married with a normal thai girl, after 4-5 years together, you may think about buying a house at the name of your thai wife.

PS: In Pattaya I saw many new houses sold for the "farang" market and overpriced ! For instance 10 million bahts for a nice villa with a private swimming pool: when the farang owner want to resell, it's really hard to sell higher than 5 millions bahts (don't believe the real estate agencies). But what will happen with this new law inforcement... with more houses to sell ? This kind of villa will be sold at 3-4 millions bahts ???

What is the third main way?

I remember to have heard and saw on some official documents issued by my embassy that you can actually buy and own 1 rai of land legally in your name.

But like everything it is at a big price of course.

When you invest 40 miln baht in Thailand, you can actually buy land till 1 rai maximum.

Downside is that the money also needs to stay on the bank for 10 years.

So it means that 10 years you can't touch that money.

Quite pricy and not a lot of us that can achieve that, except for mega-multi-nationals.

Heads up only,39,999,999 baht to go and I have my own rai

[SouthernMan3]

Time to move. I hear Cambodia is nice.

Like we say in America.

"Love it or leave it".

Bye, have a nice trip....

[toooa]

OK....no problem...we'll breed them out. So lads (and lasses) do your bit for a falang take-over. Remember, it won't happen overnight, but it will happen. We've just gotta keep nailin' away at it...

[Arkady]

Did anyone hear if moves are afoot to apply reciprocal legislation to non resident locals? ;-)

Some countries that previously prohibited foreign land ownership have been liberalising on a reciprocal basis. In Asia Korea and Taiwan have already done this. That means that Thais can't own land there but most farangs can. Chinese, Cambodians and Vietnamese are also locked out there because, although their countries allow long leases for foreigners, they must allow freehold to qualify. The Chinese and Viets are out of luck because their countries doesn't allow anyone to own freehold including locals. I would guess that Taiwan has particularly aimed this reciprocal legislation at the Chinese and probably Korea has too but both are also very significant investors in Thailand.

Let's hope this trend of reciprocal legislation continues.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Arkady

[chrissables]

So really we are just talking about ENFORCEMENT of existing laws.

WE ALL know that it's illegal to purchase land through nominees, be that the standard dodgy companies the Pattaya crowd love so much, or the equally illegal act of giving money to your girlfriend, boyfreind or wife to buy it on your behalf.

The Alien Bussiness Act has already made it a blanket offence to circumvent land ownership laws, that's been in effect since 2003, so NOBODY has any right to start moaning now just because the law is in some danger of being enforced.

With the exception of real condos (ie ones that fall within the remit of the condominium act, not fake condos like when a couple of town houses are modifed into so-called condos) are the only safe way for most of us to get involved in property, anything else is illegal.

It's about time the phoney lawyers and consultants were punished, they hang a "law office" sign outside a shop and do business by encouraging forigners to break the law, the vast majority are not lawyers at all and many are common criminals.

And why shouldn't they deport offenders, most other countries deport offenders so why not Thailand !

They should not deprot them because, they are allowing the buying to happen, so by default they are condoning it. If it was a real sam against the country, it would be understandable. But the government, the building companies, their staff, the solicitors, the land office all knw and encourage it. So it would be a bit much to be deported because they encouraged the situation.

[BirdsandBooze]

Well, these elitist fascists need to put their own house in order first by taking back all the land given to their HiSo squatter friends who have brazenly stolen protected land from the Thai nation. If ever a country needed a clear out of the Establishment it`s this one.

[Naam]

OK....no problem...we'll breed them out. So lads (and lasses) do your bit for a falang take-over. Remember, it won't happen overnight, but it will happen. We've just gotta keep nailin' away at it...

[renaissanc]

Thank you very much for the advice. My wife isn't the bar girl type, thank goodness. I could put the land in her name without worrying, but I would like to put it in my (Thai-British) children's names. They have Thai ID cards. I'm wondering if the source of the money will be investigated since the authorities are so paranoid. I suppose I could make a legal document stating that the money is a present for them. I don't know though.

This should not be a problem, unless you plan to develop the land. Children as owners cannot apply for planning permission. Under the Civil and Commercial Code the money could be considered as conjugal property that your wife, rather than you has gifted to the children. I don't think the transfer is taxable as would be gifts outside the family but would need to double check this. In practice there is not going to be any problem under existing laws with your kids owning the land, or you wife, if you both sign the appropriate declaration. The last time Mrs Arkady felt the urge to increase her land bank I was sitting in the Land Office waiting to sign the declaration when someone came up and asked the chief what the farang was doing sitting at his desk. The chief replied that the farang was there to buy land and needs to sign this declaration to make it legal. Mrs Arkady was in fact buying land upcountry but we went to sign the bumpf at our local land office in Bangkok where they are used to foreigners with Thai wives. I think it would have been OK upcountry too.

Thank you for your reply.

The purpose of the land would be to build a house on it, so the purpose is to develop it.

[Naam]

the "draconian law" is one of the usual lukewarm farts of wannabes that surface once in a while. Thai politicians and big shots who pull the strings are not as stupid as some of the resident (stupid) Farang experts think. they will not kill the goose that lays golden eggs. period!

I have to disagree with you, they are doing it on a daily basis

submit proof of just one "daily basis" case. you can't? because it's a top secret thing your maid heard from her cousin who has a friend who knows a gardener working for a top politician?

[Naam]

Well, these elitist fascists need to put their own house in order first by taking back all the land given to their HiSo squatter friends who have brazenly stolen protected land from the Thai nation. If ever a country needed a clear out of the Establishment it`s this one.

no such thing like elitist fascist! please read again:

Ombudsmen will submit the draft to parliament this year, and Mr Siracha thinks there is backing for the bill.

[FarangTalk]

I notice they say about land being held in a nominee company, but there is no mention about condos being owned the same way? It's not like a condo owner is going to set up a paddy field in his front room is it?

Because a foreigner already CAN own a condo 100% . . . that's easy and not illegal.

Foreigners can own a condo in a building provided foreign ownership of the condos in that building does not exceed 49%.

Nothing 100% about it. Still that little clause to protect against nasty foreigners written in there.

[alanferdi]

Foreigners are permitted to buy land in industrial estates because they generate income and employment.

We're nothing but walking ATMs to these people.

Similar to credit card traps, all the smiles and promises" the more you buy the more you save" and you end up on the never never.... If they are so interested in giving land to their children, let them prove that they can make it productive.... Sounds just like mugabes desease hit thailand.

[FarangTalk]

Time to move. I hear Cambodia is nice.

Cambodia is full, I mean awful.

The last thing they need/want is more Thai ex-pats. No 7-eleven, no Tesco Lotus, no Big-C, real land grabs...

I concur.

Last thing Cambodia wants or needs is more overflow expats from Thailand.

[BirdsandBooze]

2 - Legal ways:

* Lease 30 years: Everybody has to know that you have NO garantee that the lease will be renewed after 30 years. After 30 years you may loose your good.

* Buy the land at the name of you thai wife, but if she is a prostitute, she will may ask 50% of the value of the house and leave.

Sorry Spellforce, but not totally correct... even IF she leave, YOU OWN NOTHING ... so forget the 50 percent. Same if your wife dies, property does not go to you, it goes straight to the family of your wife....except car etc, which is hopefully in your name BEFORE...after you will not have the chance to change the name in the book....same other way around, Thailaw

If you are not sure my fellow TV members, RENT is always kind of safer then buy.... YOU will NEVER own LAND in Thailand

Sorry, you`re wrong there, if your wife has a legal phi nai gam with you as the beneficiary you`ll recieve ownership of the property when she dies and have 180 days from when you receive the deeds to sell. We have one.

[moskito]

And then you have to sell it immediately . . . within 30 days?

not 100% sure here, but I think it was a year....do not forget, Farang ( cant say foreigner, because obviously they dont see Chinese as foreigners here) cant own any land in LoS. After all I know its the best to make a rent contract for your house with your spouse, even if she love you very much... in case of her departure, its easier for you to stay in your house, even if her family wants to sale it... Furtunate I am happily married since 12 years and I for myself dont have any contracts...but I know stories you wont belive...

[alanferdi]

Time to move. I hear Cambodia is nice.

Yes, a thai can go anywhere in Europe and purcjase land, even like Taksin park himself and travel the world on a passport given to him, Even buy a football team... Try that in Thailand as a foreigner, someone feels he has lost something!

[moskito]

2 - Legal ways:

* Lease 30 years: Everybody has to know that you have NO garantee that the lease will be renewed after 30 years. After 30 years you may loose your good.

* Buy the land at the name of you thai wife, but if she is a prostitute, she will may ask 50% of the value of the house and leave.

Sorry Spellforce, but not totally correct... even IF she leave, YOU OWN NOTHING ... so forget the 50 percent. Same if your wife dies, property does not go to you, it goes straight to the family of your wife....except car etc, which is hopefully in your name BEFORE...after you will not have the chance to change the name in the book....same other way around, Thailaw

If you are not sure my fellow TV members, RENT is always kind of safer then buy.... YOU will NEVER own LAND in Thailand

Sorry, you`re wrong there, if your wife has a legal phi nai gam with you as the beneficiary you`ll recieve ownership of the property when she dies and have 180 days from when you receive the deeds to sell. We have one.

However - YOU dont own anything here....and you cant pack your house in the 180days and running away with it... so even in the 180 days you can and HAVE TO SALE because its not YOURs