New Draconian Property Law To Deport Foreigners Who "Owns" Land Illegally

[LennyW]

Stop the old company land owning LEGAL loophole and allow for residential purposes all long stay VISA holding foreigners to own say up to 1/2 Rai of land purely for their own single residential purposes. This would be in line with most other countries (and in Asia) as to say retirement homes for expats. Sensible, income earning and morally sound and fair.and would if fairly restricted and controlled to small residential plots not be more of a ripple than a small pebble dropped in the ocean as to the amount of land then so owned by foreigners. Oh for goodness sake grow up and get real Thailand and elect some grown up and capable politicians. I just truly do not see what their problem is ????????

There has been a motion on the table for quite some time along the lines of..... a foreigner can own up to one rai of land in their own name, for their own residence, the residence/land cannot be sold within 5 years (to prevent speculation),.... but unfortunately this motion has never got any further than the table!!!

[Time Traveller]

Those dam_n evil dirty good for nothing foreigners.

[hansnl]

Don't complain, I can only view this ouverture as a timely move after murdering tourists.

It is just the next chapter in the sinofication of Thailand

For the ruling class we are not only farang but most of all quailoh.

Small people will be attacked, big companies will remain untouched.

Edited June 29, 2012 by hansnl

[BKKBrit]

How do you know when a plane-load of TV members has touched down at Suvarnabhumi?

....

Because even when the engines have been switched off, you still hear whining.

[Darrel]

"When laws are clarified, she accepted Thailand may charge higher taxes on foreigner property transactions than on those of Thais."

Why?

That's simple. Because they can.

[skorchio]

I want to jail myself .....

[crobe]

It is just a continuation of the normal Thai mentality towards foreigners - it is not meant to be xenophobic but ask any Thai and they will tell you this is what they think..

There are only 2 types of foreigner that Thailand wants

- Foreign businesses to set up in Thailand and employ lots of Thai people - preferably exporting, for these we will give some incentives and tax breaks but please do not bring in too many foreign managers.

- Foreign tourists please come to Amazing Thailand and spend your money here - but when your money runs out go home and do not stay - go back, earn some more money and then come again

If you must be a foreigner married to a Thai then please GIVE them the money to buy land and house and we will not bother you, but remember you are only a temporary visitor here.

I have been here a few years now and engaged in making cooperation between foreign companies and the Thai government agencies, and this is what the majority of the people think - they do not see it as xenophobic in the least - just practical.

If other countries allow Thais to own land and house then more fool them

[thaifamilyguy]

I actually find this all rather fascinating as I am sitting here over last year deciding whether I want to take the obvious risk in buying anything as I hate throwing rent away.

I have been listening for a year about how owning property is illegal but tolerated if all you doing is buy a vacation home and do the dance on the structuring. Now quite possibly could be serious collateral damage from the rice farmers agenda.

Is the real issue here is how does all that expat-owned property get priced now? When legislation proposed, and then when legislation passed? Nice time to be Thai, I would think as there are going to be a hell of a lot of radioactive properties?

And does somebody step in at last minute to add carve out for our sort of profile? If had to own in personal name and can only own one property, for residential, x size, etc., there should be lots of ways of making it work.

Funny story in the USA when the rage was that the Japanese were buying up all the US property and there were calls for protectionism, Ronald Reagan famously told his advisors..."Well, its good they think the US is such a good investment..." Of course the Japanese all ended up buying at the height of the market and selling later as significant loss..back to Americans...

[simple1]

Am I not correct that foreigners acquiring land through Thai nominees is actually illegal under current Thai law, So those foreigners who have ignored the downside of the nominee company structure surely it's their "fault". However, what is the target of the proposed revised legislation that may/may not be passed into law? Is it private individuals with land & house, small agricultural land owners etc You would think that major foreign investors would have the investment decisions in Thailand ratified by the Board upon completion of all necessary due diligence to ensure compliance to Thai law.

[klubex99]

Is it any wonder that Thais are increasingly seeing foreigners as a financial target to bent over and shaft vigorously without lubes, whether it be charging double for the white skin or stabbing them for their goods. When this is the example being set by their own government??

As far as i see it, the Thai children with a farang dad is a shitload more likely to own their own land/property than a child born of pure Thai extraction.

One million foreigners living here, I wonder how many Thai children will be inheriting land or property because of that figure?

How low would land prices be if foreigners were not buying it? Building land (infill) 50K baht per rai

[skorchio]

How do you know when a plane-load of TV members has touched down at Suvarnabhumi?

....

Because even when the engines have been switched off, you still hear whining.

Last time I read this joke, it only mentioned the brits .....

[MikeThaison]

I just hope 75% of all you complaining and saying your moving REALLY DO! It would make TV a better place.

The target of this law isn't your small timing poor ass. It is aimed at the chinese that are buying huge plots of rice fields and messing with the commodity prices. This is not to say it can't effect the old fat expat, but it's pretty obvious the government could care less about all of you wanke_rs.

[belg]

nice... thailand is going after some NAZI regime tactis : report your neighbour and get his belongings (20% they write...)

last time i saw a cleaning lady biking around the moo bahn, with a t-shirt of ADOLF HITLER with swasticas and everything

guess she does not know what it means, only that she must have gotting it free or low priced....

ignorance...

[klubex99]

Is it any wonder that Thais are increasingly seeing foreigners as a financial target to bent over and shaft vigorously without lubes, whether it be charging double for the white skin or stabbing them for their goods. When this is the example being set by their own government??

As far as i see it, the Thai children with a farang dad is a shitload more likely to own their own land/property than a child born of pure Thai extraction.

One million foreigners living here, I wonder how many Thai children will be inheriting land or property because of that figure?

How low would land prices be if foreigners were not buying it? Building land (infill) 50K baht per rai

And while i am at it... I buy land and develop it with housing that is sold to 98% Thais, so i hold land for only a year. I build to a MUCH higher standard than any Thai developer. I use good materials, my houses will be still looking the same 20 years after Thai built housing has fallen over...

So where is there the provision for foreigners like myself who are giving higher living standards at affordable cost to Thais, as well as providing jobs to Thais???

I have 8 very well paid changs outside now hammering away... Think I will go outside and tell them that their future is no longer guaranteed.

[matteosergio]

One more reason to leave this country....i don't want to give just one more bath to this people!!!

[klubex99]

I think it is time I was looking closer at Phnom Penh. They are the new emerging capital city in SEA with a lot better attitude. I can make as much money there as here if not more, and to be honest, i think they are more deserving of what foreigners actually bring to these countries.

[Misterwhisper]

After 20 years in Thailand holding a renewable one-year visa and work permit I am still not allowed to legally own (that is, in my name) a single square metre of oh so sacred Thai land. Instead I am forced to still rent properties. I don't want to buy land FOR a Thai nominee with MY money, just to then have to "lease" it from them. We all know what sort of trouble this regularly entices. If I pay, I also want to own, it's a natural thing. Ironically, I could according to Thai law OWN the building that stands on the land I PAID for, but which in turn I CANNOT own. I am not playing along with those games and to this day am renting my residence, even though in the long run this is much more expensive than owning.

The true land grabbers are the hi-so, obscenely rich Thais themselves who buy up - often for a pittance and by intimidating Thai farmers - entire swathes of land for speculative purposes and even illegally occupy areas officially designated national park or protected area status. That practice seems to be perfectly alright, because it's not perpetrated by a foreigner. The ombusman's argument of "saving the land for our children" sounds hollow and cynical. How about those farmers' children?

What are the Thais concerns? That I might turn up in the middle of the night with a backhoe, scoop out their sacred soil down to the bedrock, fill it into sacks and ship it abroad?

A Singaporean group reportedly just invested 1.4 BILLION Baht in a new resort on Phuket. First of all, as foreigners they cannot own more than 49% in the company that probably had to be formed for that investment project. Assuming that these 1.4 billion Baht only represent 49%, can we assume that their 51%-holding Thai partners thus coughed up another 1.457 billion Baht to facilitate the project? Probably not. My guess is that either the Singaporeans came up with the entire amount and that those supposed Thai partners contributed nil (or rather, just on paper), or that these 1.4 billion Baht represent the TOTAL investment INCLUDING the land on which the property is to be built, because of course the land cannot be owned by Singaporeans. The question then arises: Have the Singaporeans possibly PAID their Thai investment partners for contributing the land, and why would they do that? Is it not customary that partners BRING IN funds or assets (such as property) to acquire 51% instead of being PAID by another party?

Meanwhile, rich Thais are buying up real estate all over the world. Many governments even actively encourage foreign investors (Thai and other) to do so, because they are aware that it generates a lot of money for the respective local economies and that land cannot be removed.

I've over the years become a staunch advocate of reciprocal legislature. If foreigners are barred from legally acquiring land in Thailand, Thai citizens should be barred from buying up real estate abroad. Then of course a storm of indignation would break lose all across the moneyed elite of Thailand, decrying the practice as "unfair" and "xenophobic".

The problem is actually very easy to solve. Introduce legislation that allows foreigners to legally buy and own land for RESIDENTIAL PURPOSES and restrict it to, say, 2 - 5 'rai', which is more than enough for any residential usage. If land bought under this provision is not graced with a residential building and occupied within, say, 2 years, the foreign ower will be required to either re-sell the property to the state (aqt a pre-determined price) or on the open market a local private entity that must not have any ties to the original buyer. If land is bought for business purposes (a factory, a hotel, etc.), similar legislation could be applied. Bying land for agricultural purposes would be excluded for obvious reasons.

Which brings me to another issue of inequality in this country that occasionally causes me heartburn: double, triple pricing. How would Thais react if they found a sign at a foreign tourist attraction that reads, for example, "Entrance Fee: Locals 2 Euros, Foreigners (including Thais) 40 Euros"? Indignant again?

[Mobi]

Over the past decade, there have been so many statements from various government officials that they are about to clamp down on foreigners owning land through illegal nominees, and that new, draconian laws will be introduced.

But apart from a few ‘scaremongering’ actions and statements from regional land offices that they are going after these land-owning ‘criminals’, little has been done to disturb the peace and tranquillity of those farangs who ‘own a property through the company/nominee system. To my knowledge, not a single farang, who lives in his own home, has ever been brought to book, and had his home seized or been forced to sell and deported from Thailand.

Therefor it is not unreasonable to assume that these new proposed laws will also die a similar death over the coming weeks and months.

Changing the land laws here is a very lengthy and complicated business, and just because one guy says he is drafting new laws, there is absolutely no reason to assume that anything is going to change any time soon – if ever.

There are so many obstacles to overcome, including partisan ‘fights to the death’ by opposing political parties on anything that smacks of controversial legislation that in all probability, it will die a death like all previous land reform proposals.

If the government wanted to clamp down on foreign land ownership, it would make far more sense to go after the ‘nominee shams’ than try to bring in new laws. They already have the necessary laws if they really want to do something.

In any event, for a vast majority of farangs who only want their dream home in paradise to eke out their remaining years, then the proposal to lengthen the lease period from 30 to 50 or 90 years would satisfy a vast majority of farang residents. The maximum 30 year lease rule has always been the major bone of contention as they would live in fear of being thrown out of their homes in their dotage, with little money and nowhere to go.

As for those who predict dire consequences for the tourist industry if such laws are passed, well quite frankly that is just laughable. The number of tourists coming to Thailand has increased year on year for decades, regardless of coups, murders and rapes of foreigners, scams, and any amount of negative publicity.

The punters will never stop coming here – no matter what the government does to the land laws or anything else, for that matter. It is fact that for every tourist who says they are not coming back, there are at least ten new ones to take their place. Get used to it, and stop making foolish, unsubstantiated, dire predictions on tourist numbers dramatically dropping.

99% of the tourists couldn’t give a hoot what Thailand does with its land laws.

But maybe these new proposals have nothing to do with the farangs who own land and homes through dubious legal devices.

It is actually highly possible that it has much more to do with the activities of an alarming trend in governments and corporations of rich countries to buy up farmland on a large scale in more than 60 developing countries to produce basic foods for export.

According to the farmers’ rights group, GRAIN, on worldwide farmland grabs, the massive rush was triggered by the food crisis in 2007 and 2008.

To protect themselves, the food-importing countries, led by the Gulf States, started to use "farming abroad" to secure direct food supplies.

According to the World Bank, about 50 million hectares of land were sold or under long-term lease to foreign governments and investors in 2008 and 2009 alone and according to Land Matrix, an online public database of large-scale land deals, 227 million hectares were involved in this global farmland grab.

That is more than 1,400 million rai of farmland, or half the land area of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations.

As a result of this global land grabbing, millions of poor farmers are being thrown off their land, local water sources are siphoned to feed giant agro-industries, and ecosystems are severely damaged by large-scale chemical-intensive plantations.

Among the main countries seeking farmland abroad are the Gulf States, China, South Korea and Japan. Closer to home are Singapore and Malaysia. For example, Kuwait is reportedly investing US$20 million to irrigate 4,500 hectares in Laos to produce rice for export to Kuwait.

While the buying up of paddy fields in Thailand has yet to be exposed, many scenic areas in resort towns are now in the hands of foreign real estate businesses.

For years, mountains in the North have been turned into chemical-intensive orange plantations by Chinese money and corn plantations by contract farm giants.

Meanwhile, forest dwellers are kicked off their ancestral land for forest officials' carbon credit money. Old communities are also evicted from the forests to make way for timber and oil palm plantations.

So concerns about massive land grabbing really have nothing to do with xenophobia.

They stem from a desire to hold the government accountable when the drive to make Thailand the so-called ‘Kitchen of the World’ ends up destroying local ecological systems, small farmers' livelihoods, and the country’s own food security.

Why don’t we just wait and see what this proposed legislation is really all about before we start to throw our toys out of our prams and indulge in unnecessary and unjustified name calling at our Thai hosts?

[catweazle]

How about a new advertisment campaign to support the ongoing efforts of Thai nationalists and take all of this to new heights: "Fly and bye!" - Foreign visitors will arrive by airplane in Bangkok or one of the bigger provinces of Thailand and enjoy a breathtaking bird's eye view from above whilst landing. Visitors will remain in the airplane and enjoy the breathtaking panorama view of the airport field while watching the efforts of the experienced airport staff. as highlight of the "Flye and bye!" trip to Thailand, visitors are called in by name to appear at one of the three airplane exits. Standing just there, of our attractive flight attendants, visitors are invited to throw cash, credit cards and valuables into one of the "Fly and bye!" collection baskets provided, while catching a glimpse of the airplane exterior and inhaling a few breaths of Thailand's wonderfully warm and humid air. If lucky, visitors will be able to catch a few rays of sunlight (tanning lotion provided) before returning to their seat. Conveniantly, no check-in, visa, nor immigration procedures are required, since visitors will be leaving shortly after the "money in the basket" ceremony is completed. After a few hours of flight, whilst enjoying a movie and the care of our beautiful flight attendants, you will be back in your home country to be welcomed by your loving family and friends...

[Geratul]

I even don't want to own land in "land of fake" for free where authorities smile and smile, because a foreigner is a walking ATM-machine. It's because of my wife that we stay here for some time in a rental house, but we own a big property in Malaysia, because that's for us the country we both love and where people as an extra also speak all English.

Instead that the government are more open towards foreigners in owning land, because they bring the money, knowledge, culture in this country, but no, they are really acting xenophobic. In Malaysia for instance foreigner can easy own land. Their policy is that around 35% of the land can be own by foreigners. That's a law since their independence in 1957. Till now (2012) around 14% is owned by foreigners.

Thailand think they are so special, well perhaps for themselves, but not for me... overreacting attitude! and besides I ask myself how foreigners can own land and even be deported in case of... well start with the Thai who give them the opportunity is it?

[skorchio]

nice... thailand is going after some NAZI regime tactis : report your neighbour and get his belongings (20% they write...)

last time i saw a cleaning lady biking around the moo bahn, with a t-shirt of ADOLF HITLER with swasticas and everything

guess she does not know what it means, only that she must have gotting it free or low priced....

ignorance...

They only know the royal family, they study only thai history, outside thailand there's nothing for them....holy ignorance

Personally I think it is more ignorant for a person WITH an education to diss people from a developing nation for their lack of education and resulting ignorance. It is about as smart as shouting at deaf children.

[newermonkey]

As far as I know any Thai person (or any other nationality) can go to the UK and buy land, the only clause as far as I know is the person must have enough money.

I don’t see why Thailand has to be so protective. Anyone know what psychological reason is behind the reasoning? or is it just a KHON THAI chest beating thing? "You falang you not KHON THAI you not understand... I Thai give me more whisky"... grunt grunt...

[Docno]

That's because, much as I love Thai people, their culture and politics are so flawed and full of holes. I think you will find that foreigners who complain are mainly justified and have been living here a long time - which makes their observations relevant. Next time, present a better argument. 1 out of ten for a bad effort.

No use trying to apply logic in anything that the Thai government does when it comes to foreigners, their xenophobic ways will never change.

And foreigners who does not know anything about anything, and who always just want to complain about thai culture and thai politics will never change either...

Sorry, I just don't get why some of them stay on if they hate the place and people so much... Can't be good for your mental well-being when you think you're surrounded by scam artists, criminals, and idiots...

[Chopperboy]

Thailand is no longer a poor country so the laws should be reciprocal - if you can't own land as a foreigner in Thailand then a Thai shouldn't be able to own it in your country either.

[lensta]

I still have a big doubt: How can possibly any foreigner "own" land throught nominees??? In any case they are renting that land, cuz the real owner is the nominee.

Imagine Company A.

It has a number of shareholders, all Thai - but they only amount to 49% of the shares.

Company A also have a Thai director.

Company B holds 51% of the shares in Company A and can thus control Company A.

Company B does not own any land, and have a foreign director.

In Company B, foreigners own at least 51% of the shares.

In above example, no foreigners own any land, however a foreigner is in control of a piece of land.

Uhh scary stuff this.. God forbit such nasty business.

Lets deport the foreigner straight away.. Bad foreigner !!

One problem with your scenario, foreigners cannot own 51% of a Thai company

[klubex99]

Thailand is no longer a poor country so the laws should be reciprocal - if you can't own land as a foreigner in Thailand then a Thai shouldn't be able to own it in your country either.

Thailand is no longer a poor country because of erm... cough cough.... the foreigners that they hate so much, and their money that they bring into Thailand to buy things like tum yam, sex and land to buy a house or to build a tourism infrastructure for these ungrateful idiots.

[Trouble]

No way would I own land through Proxies. I would be afraid that they would screw me over at the first opportunity. Further could anyone trust the constantly changing Thai governments to keep its word even if one did acquire property legally at some point in time. No thanks, there are other places to invest with less risk and were investment is appreciated.

[laurentbkk]

Its funny , in my country Thais can buy land (I know some who did) maybe its time to do the same to them as they do to foreigners here, I will call for a campaign in my country against Thais who buy properties. It would be so much better and easier to close the country like north korea. So , we pay taxes , we consume but .... Start to become too restrictive. Pay and spend money but shut up ... is that the new Amazing Thailand campaign ?

[laurentbkk]

Thailand is no longer a poor country so the laws should be reciprocal - if you can't own land as a foreigner in Thailand then a Thai shouldn't be able to own it in your country either.

well just to inform you in my country , anybody can buy lands ..I even know some thais who bought a huge property there ..... I have names if you want , so before to talk , inform yourself . And if you remove Bangkok and all major touristic spots , Thailand is still a poor country with very poor people.... maybe you never been up country in Issan area.

[laurentbkk]

Thailand is no longer a poor country so the laws should be reciprocal - if you can't own land as a foreigner in Thailand then a Thai shouldn't be able to own it in your country either.

well just to inform you in my country , anybody can buy lands ..I even know some thais who bought a huge property there ..... I have names if you want , so before to talk , inform yourself . And if you remove Bangkok and all major touristic spots , Thailand is still a poor country with very poor people.... maybe you never been up country in Issan area.

Damned I didnt read your comment perfectly .... I agree with you about thai shouldnt be able to own foreign lands .. LOL sorry ..