Interesting News From France....

[catmac]

I think the fourth paragraph of this BBC report will bring joy to a certain poster here...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18693089

[isanbirder]

I'm astonished that nobody has commented on this; are you all so US and UK centred? Here is the important sentence from the link.

"Mr Ayrault also said gay couples would be allowed to get married and to adopt children from next year - an election pledge made by President Hollande."

A great step forward for France.

[Scott]

Your right, Isanbirder, but this is only good news. The gay forum is a little better, but if you can't trash someone or their country, then it's not worth a comment!

As other countries move in the direction of full equality of gays in the area of marriage, it will be interesting to see what happens with those that don't. I believe there are treaties/international protocols which acknowledge that a marriage in one country is also a marriage in another country.

When it comes to immigration and traveling in other countries, this is a fairly important concept.

[isanbirder]

You're right, Scott, this is only good news. Even in the gay forum, where we're rather receptive to good news, especially on the marriage/civil partnership front, nobody can be bothered to comment.

More to the point, though, if somebody posts a link but doesn't say what it's about, few people will bother to read it. I'm no better; I'd read this article already.

[Jingthing]

Yes, congrats to France.

Interestingly they've got 63 percent public support for same sex marriage legalization which is quite a bit higher than the US support which is now about 53 percent.

[catmac]

Sorry, Isaanbirder, if I was a bit criptic in my original post, I mistakenly thought that a hint of mystery might encourage people to explore!

I do agree with you about the board being dominated by US affairs, but I imagine that has a lot to do with the nationality of the more prolific posters.

[Jingthing]

Sorry, Isaanbirder, if I was a bit criptic in my original post, I mistakenly thought that a hint of mystery might encourage people to explore!

I do agree with you about the board being dominated by US affairs, but I imagine that has a lot to do with the nationality of the more prolific posters.

Has it occurred to you that as an English language Thai expat forum, we don't have very many French people here? Has it occurred to you there are Thailand related forums that are using the French language?

[LeCharivari]

.... I believe there are treaties/international protocols which acknowledge that a marriage in one country is also a marriage in another country.

When it comes to immigration and traveling in other countries, this is a fairly important concept.

I'm afraid that's a common misconception, Scott.

The principle which applies by custom and practice rather than by any written convention is what is called comity or reciprocity, which is explained by Human Rights Watch as "recognition that one nation allows within its territory to the legislative, executive or judicial acts of another nation, having due regard both to the international duty and convenience and to the rights of its own citizens who are under the protection of its laws." In other words (as concerns marriage) a country will only recognize a marriage as valid if it would be valid in that country *.

That doesn't just rule out gay marriages / Partnerships in countries that don't recognize them, but it also rules out a lot of other marriages - child marriage, for example, would be legal in some countries but illegal in others; forced marriages are legal in some countries, but now illegal in the UK and a criminal offence for the parents; a very few countries allow marriage between brother and sister, some between first cousins, others second cousins, etc - Australia doesn't even allow marriage between adopted (not blood related) brothers and sisters; many Muslim countries allow polygamous marriage, but other countries only recognise the first of those marriages as the legal one.

There is a protocol (the Hague Convention,1991) but as its only been ratified by three countries (Australia, the Netherlands and Luxembourg) and signed by three others (Egypt, Finland and Portugal) its next to meaningless - particularly as since 2004 Australian law specifically only recognises marriage between a man and a woman and under Article 14 of the Convention "A Contracting State may refuse to recognize the validity of a marriage where such recognition is manifestly incompatible with its public policy". I have a UK Civil Partnership, which is the direct equivalent of a marriage in countries where such partnerships/marriages are recognised, but that doesn't include Australia (although Australia recognises it as proof of a de facto marriage / domestic partnership if we want it, as I also have Australian citizenship, permitting immigration, visas, etc for my Partner and effectively giving us all the same rights as marriage in all but name) or Thailand.

It would be nice (from a purely gay point of view) to imagine that if you have a gay marriage / Partnership in one country that other countries would be obliged to recognise it, but that would be overlooking all the questions over ages of consent, child marriage, forced marriage, polygamous marriage (with immigration rights), etc that many would see as equally (if not more) important.

* There are a very few exceptions, notably Israel where legal same-sex marriages/Partnerships made elsewhere are fully recognised as marriages in Israel, including for Israelis, although same-sex marriages are not allowed in Israel.

[endure]

Sorry, Isaanbirder, if I was a bit criptic in my original post, I mistakenly thought that a hint of mystery might encourage people to explore!

I do agree with you about the board being dominated by US affairs, but I imagine that has a lot to do with the nationality of the more prolific posters.

I expect umbrage will be along in a while....

[isanbirder]

The more countries legalise gay partnerships, the more other countries will do so. That's why I think it's so important.

[catmac]

Sorry, Isaanbirder, if I was a bit criptic in my original post, I mistakenly thought that a hint of mystery might encourage people to explore!

I do agree with you about the board being dominated by US affairs, but I imagine that has a lot to do with the nationality of the more prolific posters.

Has it occurred to you that as an English language Thai expat forum, we don't have very many French people here? Has it occurred to you there are Thailand related forums that are using the French language?

I have no idea what point you are trying to make, Jingthing. My OP refered to an article in English about France"s moves towards legalising gay marriage, a subject of interest, I would have thought, to any gay person, not just French people. What your reference to French language forums has to do with it eludes me.

[Jingthing]

I feel no need to clarify my post. If you didn't get it the first time, that's fine. It's not that hard but its not important either, so please drop it.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

The more countries legalise gay partnerships, the more other countries will do so. That's why I think it's so important.

I wouldn't put it in exactly the same way as each country is independent. However, in countries where there is hope for legalization it does help the gay activists (and allies) working towards changing the laws when the public is made aware that their country isn't doing anything revolutionary anymore, compared to the growing trend in the world. I think it is even more valuable when countries from regions reputed to be especially macho/homophobic legalize same sex marriage. So the legalizations in Argentina and South Africa would fit in that category. It is less of a surprise when a western European country like France goes this way. That said, I don't think legalization in France brings a countries like Russia, Nigeria, or Iran one tiny bit closer! So you can't really generalize about this all that much. Edited July 7, 2012 by Jingthing

[catmac]

I feel no need to clarify my post. If you didn't get it the first time, that's fine. It's not that hard but its not important either, so please drop it.

Just not on, Jingthing. Once again you post a snide comment directed at a fellow poster on this forum and seem to be unwilling, or unable, to justify what you have posted. A prime example of the ability of the "gay activist" to piss off both gay and straight people.

I take an active interest in what is happening anywhere in the world, and when I stumble across a news item that seems relevent to this forum, I do post a link to it. I have to admit, that I now wish that I hadn't.

[Jingthing]

I take an active interest in what is happening anywhere in the world, and when I stumble across a news item that seems relevent to this forum, I do post a link to it. I have to admit, that I now wish that I hadn't.

So do I! Again, you didn't even begin to understand my post and I'm just not interested in your cat fight. It is just not worth it. I asked you to drop it but you want to make a thing about it. I won't play. If I had to "clarify" every post that somebody's mental filters totally misinterpreted, well, they don't pay me enough for that (nothing) and no poster is under any obligation to do so.

However, I will say if you think I was saying don't start threads about global gay stuff --WRONG! 100 percent wrong.

I have done that many times and would be the last person to say you shouldn't. I would definitely encourage you strongly to continue to do so if that pleases you. Not that everyone would agree, that is of course just my opinion.

Some international threads I have started here:

http://www.thaivisa....y-in-the-world/

http://www.thaivisa....xi-drivers-etc/

http://www.thaivisa....edro-separated/

http://www.thaivisa....iday-in-uganda/

http://www.thaivisa....-latin-america/

You might be pleased though that apparently you made an ally by trying to pick a fight with me of our resident "it's never a bad time to disrespect gay activists" dude. It's a funny meme to hear pushed on the gay forum, but ... whatever.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Well I for one am very glad you did make the post, Catmac, as I was unaware of the French change in policy so "merci bien".

..... and very obviously the more countries that legalise gay partnerships the more others (but very obviously not all) will accept that gay partnerships are not only for those countries that favour a more progressive approach but also for those who take a more conventional line but who want to allow registered partnerships for all as a conventional human right, regardless of their sexuality.

Its interesting that France (in a similar way to some other countries that have now approved gay marriage/Partnership) will be doing so as a final step following the introduction of a legal and registered lesser commitment than marriage but with similar rights (except adoption and IVF) but lesser responsibilities that was open to same-sex partners as well as heterosexuals (PACS in 1999). 95% of the couples who "se-pacser" now are actually heterosexual, so it really is part of a steadily developing national system rather than just a reaction to the gay lobby (or its allies) who in France have played surprisingly little part in the process in spite of the general French habit of groups protesting, striking, rioting and demonstrating about almost anything they disapprove of or want changed.

[endure]

Sorry, Isaanbirder, if I was a bit criptic in my original post, I mistakenly thought that a hint of mystery might encourage people to explore!

I do agree with you about the board being dominated by US affairs, but I imagine that has a lot to do with the nationality of the more prolific posters.

I expect umbrage will be along in a while....

Unfortunately I was right again.

[Jingthing]

In France OBVIOUSLY the gay civil rights issue is historically married to the French LEFT WING. The French left wing just won some major political victories, so it makes perfect sense now is the time for them to move forward on gay civil rights. No doubt, French gay people tend to more left leaning. No. It didn't just magically happen by polite gentlemen who not only don't want to rock the boat, they don't want to get on the boat, who don't even identify as being gay or accept that gay is a POLITICAL identity group in our modern times at least in western countries.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/9966/gay-marriage-will-soon-become-legal-in-france-big-win-for-lgbt-rights-in-europe

Edited July 7, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Sorry, Isaanbirder, if I was a bit criptic in my original post, I mistakenly thought that a hint of mystery might encourage people to explore!

I do agree with you about the board being dominated by US affairs, but I imagine that has a lot to do with the nationality of the more prolific posters.

I expect umbrage will be along in a while....

Unfortunately I was right again.

Actually, you weren't right because any overreaction to one of my posts was based on a ridiculous misreading of the meaning of that post.

[endure]

Sorry, Isaanbirder, if I was a bit criptic in my original post, I mistakenly thought that a hint of mystery might encourage people to explore!

I do agree with you about the board being dominated by US affairs, but I imagine that has a lot to do with the nationality of the more prolific posters.

I expect umbrage will be along in a while....

Unfortunately I was right again.

Actually, you weren't right because any overreaction to one of my posts was based on a ridiculous misreading of the meaning of that post.

You could pick a fight in an empty room.

[Jingthing]

Well I for one am very glad you did make the post, Catmac, as I was unaware of the French change in policy so "merci bien".

I am also very glad he made the post, and I never said anything differently. Congratulations to all the gays in France (from activists to closet cases) for the fruition of their long struggle (due to a socialist political victory).

[Jingthing]

You could pick a fight in an empty room.

pot kettle black

Back to the topic, sort of, did y'all know that FRANCE was the first country ever to decriminalize homosexuality? The year was ... 1791.

Not 1971. 1791.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

"No doubt, French gay people tend to be more left leaning. No. It didn't just magically happen by polite gentlemen etc, etc"

Actually in France that's exactly how it happened which, as I pointed out and you seem blissfully unaware, is why its particularly unusual for France ..... and very few of those involved at any time at any level have been gay or identified as gay. In France, as in many Western countries, its a progression of human rights, not about gay as a POLITICAL identity group; similarly in the UK, LGBT legislation has been supported and passed (and rejected) pretty well equally by both the left and the right wing.

Its bad enough reading your ridiculous "Nobody else understands what its like being gay" on a gay forum without your extending your uninformed bias to include countries outside the US, where your knowledge is limited enough. As your mother should have told you long ago, nobody hates you just because you're gay - they never have. Take a look in the mirror and grow up.

[endure]

You could pick a fight in an empty room.

pot kettle black

Back to the topic, sort of, did y'all know that FRANCE was the first country ever to decriminalize homosexuality? The year was ... 1791.

Not 1971. 1791.

Homosexuality wasn't criminalised in the UK until the passage of the Buggery Act in 1533. It was decriminalised in 1967 after a change in public opinion after the Wildeblood prosecution. There wasn't a single activist in sight - just the Vice Chancellor of Reading University. Lawrence v Texas was in 2003 wasn't it?

[Jingthing]

...

As your mother should have told you long ago, nobody hates you just because you're gay - they never have.

...

You're so wrong it isn't even funny. Nobody hates people just for being gay? Can I ask you not to mention my mother? I hold her memory in high regard like every good gay Jewish boy, and she doesn't need such inane and insulting posthumous criticism.

This is a new high really. This outdoes the classic gay activists equals men in dresses meme. What did a gay activist ever do to you that you seem so obsessed with disrespecting the pioneers of the global gay civil rights movement?

It is no wonder I have a continued conflict with you, here, on the GAY forum. It's outrageous to suggest that gays all over the world don't face hatred for being gay. Obviously the severity of the situation varies with different countries.

The religious right in America has employed a variety of strategies in its efforts to beat back the increasingly confident gay rights movement. One of those has been defamation. Many of its leaders have engaged in the crudest type of name-calling, describing LGBT people as "perverts" with "filthy habits" who seek to snatch the children of straight parents and "convert" them to gay sex. They have disseminated disparaging "facts" about gays that are simply untrue — assertions that are remarkably reminiscent of the way white intellectuals and scientists once wrote about the "bestial" black man and his supposedly threatening sexuality.

http://www.splcenter...eology/anti-gay

BTW, I have never said France or England was the same as the USA. Don't project your mentality on me. That's your thing. To suggest the USA can do the same thing as Australia or England ... when they can't. I don't do that. I only pointed out the FACT of the linkage of leftist politics and gay civil rights progress in France. It was the French RIGHT WING that was blocking this excellent big step they just took. It too a huge left wing victory for it to happen.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Actually it was Andorra, in 1790.

Edited July 7, 2012 by LeCharivari

[endure]

This is a new high really. This outdoes the classic gay activists equals men in dresses meme. What did a gay activist ever do to you that you seem so obsessed with disrespecting the pioneers of the global gay civil rights movement?

Who are the 'pioneers of the global gay civil rights movement'? Am I supposed to have heard of them?

[Jingthing]

Actually it was Andorra, in 1790. No activists there either.

That's super. So there were no activists. And that proves what exactly? That there has never been any value to gay activists, anywhere, at any time? Really, what is your schtick about disrespecting gay activists? Edited July 7, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

This is a new high really. This outdoes the classic gay activists equals men in dresses meme. What did a gay activist ever do to you that you seem so obsessed with disrespecting the pioneers of the global gay civil rights movement?

Who are the 'pioneers of the global gay civil rights movement'? Am I supposed to have heard of them?

Yes you should have heard of them.

So you're not into history? I'd be embarrassed to admit that kind of ignorance but I admire your honesty about it. Here's a good one. Another gay Jew (with an Asian lover):

http://en.wikipedia....gnus_Hirschfeld

Dill Pickle Club? Gotta love that!

In my view, it is despicable for gay people to disrespect these pioneers. They are HEROES and modern gay people owe them a huge debt of gratitude.

It is rather odd to need to make that point on a gay forum to supposedly gay people.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Jingthing

[endure]

Never heard of him. He was born in 1868 and died in 1935. His life had no effect on me at all, nor I suspect, on the vast majority of gay folks in the UK. My heroes are Sir John Wolfenden, Leo Abse and, ironically enough, David Maxwell Fyfe. Those three really did change my life.

"I'd be embarrassed to admit that kind of ignorance but I admire your honesty about it" You just can't help taking these snide little pops can you?

Edited July 7, 2012 by endure