Thai Court Verdict 'May Spark More Violence'

[philw]

I see from the news thread three of these judges are trying to jump ship, weird that eh?

So would you if 25000 redshirts had your address and phone numbers of you, your wife and your children, given to them by a member of the cabinet.

Do you have anything, repeat anything, to support your assertion that that the judges concerned are giving in to intimidation ??

Anything ?

[philw]

I don't agree. I believe (along with a number of academics) that it's actually largely because people are becoming less subservient and more demanding that they've decided to get involved in the red movement - which is not to say that I agree with all of their actions or goals. Just the thing about them being ignorant and poor doesn't accord with reality. In general they're not the poorest of the poor anyway. They're certainly poorer than your average Democrat or PAD supporter (as studies have shown) but they're generally what Andrew Walker terms 'middle income peasants'. People from rural areas who own small businesses, and farmers who earn enough to have a mobile phone, motorbike or pick-up and perhaps a computer with internet connection. Then in the city they obviously have quite a lot of support amongst street vendors, taxi drivers, motorsai and a segment of the (mostly lower) middle class. The people that came out to fight the army seemed to be mostly folk from the slums of KT etc - the 'lumpen proletariat' - I suppose it makes sense because they have less to lose.

Yes. And their precious PTP have been in power for a year. Their precious Yingluck has avoided almost all debates in parliament, voted on 10% of motions during her visits, and her visits are very very very rare indeed. The number of bills passed by PTP in the last year are shamefully small, and none of them actually fundamentally improve infrastructure, education or anything long-term that would lead to long lasting improvements for the rural people you are talking about. We have been given short term eye-candy, like little drug fixes but no actual long-term reform agenda.

My point is that PTP is an crime-oligarchy and Thaksin is a dictator, not a communist but a modern corporate hybrid who uses maoist agrarian populism (redmob speeches on television and stage 2009/10/11 was very Maoist - down with the elites, burn the decadent capital, power to the farmers etc.) and ultimately just like Mao he never had any intention of making the poor rural people affluent or educated because then they would have no further need for his shady gang any more. PTP have not helped the redmob at all. Thats why the redmob are still angry. And that is what Thaksin wants.

If you or I agree doesn't matter. The PTP agenda has got nothing to do with helping the poor rural people you are writing about (above). PTP agenda is about making the Shinawatras extremely wealthy (far more than today) and making them a permanent feature of the state landscape for generations. You can cheer them on iif you want. Wave your red clappers. Hold aloft your red-rimmed photos of the Great Leader and his Sister. I'll go and be sick in the meantime.

So whats the difference between one group of "precious " elitists and another, if they are all cast in the same mould ??

All prominent families here are obsessed with becoming, and staying, extremely wealthy.

All.

[Yunla]

I see from the news thread three of these judges are trying to jump ship, weird that eh?

So would you if 25000 redshirts had your address and phone numbers of you, your wife and your children, given to them by a member of the cabinet.

Do you have anything, repeat anything, to support your assertion that that the judges concerned are giving in to intimidation ??

Anything ?

If they give in or not isn't really the issue. The issue is that PTP distributing the home-addresses of completely innocent tax-paying citizens, to an angry street-mob, is against Thailand's 'Privacy Laws', and also against wider laws in ASEAN and under Amnesty human-rights laws too.

The fact is that PTP broke the law, publicly, and they committed human-rights abuses, publicly, and in doing so they put families' lives in danger. And the reason they committed this act of state fascism? Because the families living at those addresses were standing in the way of 46bn baht payout for the PTP when they successfully crush Thailand's Supreme Court ruling. Handing out addresses of dissenters to jackboot-wearing thugs is also what happened in the 3rd Reich and under Stalin, by the way. PTP's great heroes.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Yunla

[ThaiOats]

Very interesting that now the UDD is being called "commies" and "Maoists". In earlier threads they were called rightwing nationalists.

How about a bit of reality and the acceptance that the UDD is an umbrella group comprising multiple groups with divergent political and social views that are united by one political goal, which is to see Thailand freed from the political interference and control of entrenched power groups such as the military?

I also note an interesting historical parallel. 30 yeas ago Canada repatriated its constitution. At the time Canada's constitution was legally controlled in the UK. When the PM of the day launched his initiative, which also included a Charter of Rights, there was serious opposition. Oh no the Conservative party screamed you can't do that, it's criminal, it's wrong blah blah blah. 30 years later, those changes and the Charter of Rights are considered cornerstones of the country's autonomy and judicial process. Thailand's current attempts to remove some of the most egregious avenues for meddling by non elected groups really is no different in concept, save for the fact that it really doesn't change much. The current claims about infringing uon the role of the monarch are spurious and are raised because the opponents really do not have the moral, nor legal basis with which to oppose the changes.

Good stuff and spot on.

Thailand is in transition, or at least the process has started and I doubt can be stopped.

There will be a few "interesting" years ahead but that genie called "awareness" cannot be put back into the bottle.

The stage is being set as we speak and why not ??

The Thai people have a voice and they have the right to use it.

Equally, the C.C. have the power to make a very big mistake in the next few days and I hope they do not.

Let's see what happens.

And in your eyes, what would be a very big mistake? I suppose it's the answer you don't want, whatever that may be,

[Skywalker69]

Such is important. As sooner people learn the right way, as less of them must be sent to reeducation centers, later when full power is established.

I just read about Mao, he had real efficient methods to ensure that everyone loves and works for the good of the revolution.

Totalitarian ideologies are like viruses. The virus that swept China in the 1930's, has been documented and analysed by history, it has been cataloged. To a certain extent we have been vaccinated. But of course viruses mutate to bypass the vaccines. The same is true of politics. In many nations hybridist politics especially corporatocratic dictatorships are the repulsive 21st century offspring of Mao's failed experiment and no-brakes capitalism. Thaksin is the poster child for this type of insane and lawless businessman dictatorship.

Wisely spoken Yunla.

[philw]

I see from the news thread three of these judges are trying to jump ship, weird that eh?

So would you if 25000 redshirts had your address and phone numbers of you, your wife and your children, given to them by a member of the cabinet.

Do you have anything, repeat anything, to support your assertion that that the judges concerned are giving in to intimidation ??

Anything ?

If they give in or not isn't really the issue. The issue is that PTP distributing the home-addresses of completely innocent tax-paying citizens, to an angry street-mob, is against Thailand's 'Privacy Laws', and also against wider laws in ASEAN and under Amnesty human-rights laws too.

The fact is that PTP broke the law, publicly, and they committed human-rights abuses, publicly, and in doing so they put families' lives in danger. And the reason they committed this act of state fascism? Because the families living at those addresses were standing in the way of 46bn baht payout for the PTP when they successfully crush Thailand's Supreme Court ruling. Handing out addresses of dissenters to jackboot-wearing thugs is also what happened in the 3rd Reich and under Stalin, by the way. PTP's great heroes.

Where do you get the idea that Hitler and Stalin are the PTP's " great heroes " ???

I am genuinely bemused by this assertion.

How Thaksin can be likened by some on here to, in no particular order, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, The loonie in Korea, Marcos, Mugabe or even Tony Blair is utterly beyond me, even after a few beers..........

And just for Gentleman Jim, i'm off to to put 3 kids, 4 puppies and a pile of ale in the car and drive home drunk.

[philw]

Very interesting that now the UDD is being called "commies" and "Maoists". In earlier threads they were called rightwing nationalists.

How about a bit of reality and the acceptance that the UDD is an umbrella group comprising multiple groups with divergent political and social views that are united by one political goal, which is to see Thailand freed from the political interference and control of entrenched power groups such as the military?

I also note an interesting historical parallel. 30 yeas ago Canada repatriated its constitution. At the time Canada's constitution was legally controlled in the UK. When the PM of the day launched his initiative, which also included a Charter of Rights, there was serious opposition. Oh no the Conservative party screamed you can't do that, it's criminal, it's wrong blah blah blah. 30 years later, those changes and the Charter of Rights are considered cornerstones of the country's autonomy and judicial process. Thailand's current attempts to remove some of the most egregious avenues for meddling by non elected groups really is no different in concept, save for the fact that it really doesn't change much. The current claims about infringing uon the role of the monarch are spurious and are raised because the opponents really do not have the moral, nor legal basis with which to oppose the changes.

Good stuff and spot on.

Thailand is in transition, or at least the process has started and I doubt can be stopped.

There will be a few "interesting" years ahead but that genie called "awareness" cannot be put back into the bottle.

The stage is being set as we speak and why not ??

The Thai people have a voice and they have the right to use it.

Equally, the C.C. have the power to make a very big mistake in the next few days and I hope they do not.

Let's see what happens.

And in your eyes, what would be a very big mistake? I suppose it's the answer you don't want, whatever that may be,

The big mistake would be to ban an elected party.

Clear enough ?

[metisdead]

A baiting post has been removed as well as a reply. If the baiting does not stop, maybe a suspension will.

[Mosha]

Very interesting that now the UDD is being called "commies" and "Maoists". In earlier threads they were called rightwing nationalists.

How about a bit of reality and the acceptance that the UDD is an umbrella group comprising multiple groups with divergent political and social views that are united by one political goal, which is to see Thailand freed from the political interference and control of entrenched power groups such as the military?

I also note an interesting historical parallel. 30 yeas ago Canada repatriated its constitution. At the time Canada's constitution was legally controlled in the UK. When the PM of the day launched his initiative, which also included a Charter of Rights, there was serious opposition. Oh no the Conservative party screamed you can't do that, it's criminal, it's wrong blah blah blah. 30 years later, those changes and the Charter of Rights are considered cornerstones of the country's autonomy and judicial process. Thailand's current attempts to remove some of the most egregious avenues for meddling by non elected groups really is no different in concept, save for the fact that it really doesn't change much. The current claims about infringing uon the role of the monarch are spurious and are raised because the opponents really do not have the moral, nor legal basis with which to oppose the changes.

Good stuff and spot on.

Thailand is in transition, or at least the process has started and I doubt can be stopped.

There will be a few "interesting" years ahead but that genie called "awareness" cannot be put back into the bottle.

The stage is being set as we speak and why not ??

The Thai people have a voice and they have the right to use it.

Equally, the C.C. have the power to make a very big mistake in the next few days and I hope they do not.

Let's see what happens.

And in your eyes, what would be a very big mistake? I suppose it's the answer you don't want, whatever that may be,

The big mistake would be to ban an elected party.

Clear enough ?

Even if that party broke the rules to get elected?

[philw]

Mosha, which rules, with regard to the current administration??

[phiphidon]

This 'intimidating red mob' are not red shirts, but rather former communist party members there to 'protect the court'. Interesting the split in the former communists*, because some of them did join the red shirts, of course. It mirrrors the split in the 'October Generation' of student leaders (many of whom later fled to the maquis). On one side you have Dr Weng, Thida, Chaturon, Phrommin, Jaran, Adisorn etc and on the other you've got Phibop, Kaewsan, Chermsak, Chaiwat etc. And those from that generation who're now academics seem similarly divided.

*assuming these guys outside the court are motivated by ideology and not just a little extra cash. probably a bit of both?

Sounds like the redmob. Ideology and a bit of extra cash. Just enough of both, to keep their hopes up for the time being. Until they are next mobilised. Rinse and repeat. Intimidate the dissenters. Pressure your relatives to join. The redmob movement is all about push & shove and maintaining pressure. PTP don't give redmob anything remotely resembling infrastructure-improvement bills in parliament, no kind of lifestyle or education improvements, Some tacky tablets. Scattered minimum wage. Nothing long term or fundamental. That is the Maoist way to keep the people subservient. If you make them smart and affluent they will change the channel during your propaganda show, to look at aspirational middle class programs instead. Keep them poor and stupid thats the way.

I don't even know where to start with this mish mash. You're told that the "intimidating red mob" are not red shirts which in the post before you implied you knew and that you were only joking. You're told again and you ignore it and say it is all about the UDD (ignoring your stupid text speak vocabulary of redmob). Then it's the PTP not doing enough in your mind for the UDD. Next you're on about the Maoist technique of keeping the people subservient so that they never learn enough to change the channel during propaganda shows? Instead they look at middle class shows depicting objects they covet but cannot afford - and thats the ideology of the PTP?

So much bitterness, it's a shame..................

[tlansford]

edit : browser burp...

Edited July 6, 2012 by tlansford

[Yunla]

Where do you get the idea that Hitler and Stalin are the PTP's " great heroes " ???

I am genuinely bemused by this assertion.

How Thaksin can be likened by some on here to, in no particular order, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, The loonie in Korea, Marcos, Mugabe or even Tony Blair is utterly beyond me, even after a few beers..........

And just for Gentleman Jim, i'm off to to put 3 kids, 4 puppies and a pile of ale in the car and drive home drunk.

I was comparing the intimidating dissidents at their homes thing, which 3rd Reich and Stalin both did. I was comparing their actions to PTP, 100% fit, but beyond that no I don't know if they were heroes I was using a dramatic flourish.

North Korea is another good example though. They have the big demagogic leader's face on red posters just like Thaksin. And serious rural poverty. I watched a program about a farmer in North Korea, he and his wife and kids were starving in a crumbling shack because of the state, but he kept a glassed and gilt-framed picture of the Dear Leader on the wall of his hovel and he shone that frame every day and hung it straight, even though he and his family were dying of hunger. This is the ultimate nightmare of totalitarian dictatorship brainwashing and intimidation.

As I've said before I actually pray that Thailand will turnaround now and become prosperous and equal, I really love my Thai friends and their families more than I love my own sick old self. So when I compare PTP to these regimes I am saying not that I want this to be true, but that it is a warning from history, and we should look to democracy for the future and not dictatorship. When you see a crowd marching with one mans face on all their Tshirts, and wearing masks of that mans face, and holding placards with his face - that is dictatorship in all but name. Democratic parties don't generally go in for that kind of stuff because you would need all the cabinet ministers faces on the same tshirt as the PM. That is just one example. PTP also rule with very authoritarian one-party tendencies, they have no time for parliamentary give-and-take at all and it worries me a lot.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Yunla

[Yunla]

I don't even know where to start with this mish mash. You're told that the "intimidating red mob" are not red shirts which in the post before you implied you knew and that you were only joking. You're told again and you ignore it and say it is all about the UDD (ignoring your stupid text speak vocabulary of redmob). Then it's the PTP not doing enough in your mind for the UDD. Next you're on about the Maoist technique of keeping the people subservient so that they never learn enough to change the channel during propaganda shows? Instead they look at middle class shows depicting objects they covet but cannot afford - and thats the ideology of the PTP?

So much bitterness, it's a shame..................

I'm not bitter. I'm concerned - very concerned indeed, and not for myself but for my Thai friends who are having their democratic nationhood subverted by a gang of on-bail criminals and on-the-run criminals and a sort of barbie doll figure with a parliament-allergy. I can't see PTP themselves or their actions as causing anything but hardship and loss in the lives of people I care about.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Yunla

[philw]

Where do you get the idea that Hitler and Stalin are the PTP's " great heroes " ???

I am genuinely bemused by this assertion.

How Thaksin can be likened by some on here to, in no particular order, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, The loonie in Korea, Marcos, Mugabe or even Tony Blair is utterly beyond me, even after a few beers..........

And just for Gentleman Jim, i'm off to to put 3 kids, 4 puppies and a pile of ale in the car and drive home drunk.

I was comparing the intimidating dissidents at their homes thing, which 3rd Reich and Stalin both did. I was comparing their actions to PTP, 100% fit, but beyond that no I don't know if they were heroes I was using a dramatic flourish.

North Korea is another good example though. They have the big demagogic leader's face on red posters just like Thaksin. And serious rural poverty. I watched a program about a farmer in North Korea, he and his wife and kids were starving in a crumbling shack because of the state, but he kept a glass framed picture of the Dear Leader on the wall of his hovel and he shone that frame every day and hung it straight, even though he and his family were dying of hunger. This is the nightmare of totalitarian dictatorship. As I've said before I actually pray that Thailand will turnaround now and become prosperous and equal, I really love my Thai friends and their families more than I love my own sick old self. So when I compare PTP to these regimes I am saying not that I want this to be true, but that it is a warning from history, and we should look to democracy for the future and not dictatorship. When you see a crowd marching with one mans face on all their Tshirts, and wearing masks of that mans face, and holding placards with his face - that is dictatorship. Democratic parties don't generally go in for that kind of stuff because you would need all the cabinet ministers faces on the same tshirt as the PM. That is just one example. PTP also rule with very authoritarian one-party tendencies, they have no time for parliamentary give-and-take at all and it worries me a lot.

This is slightly better than television in Thailand.

At least no screaming soaps.............

"I watched a program about a farmer in North Korea, he and his wife and kids were starving in a crumbling shack because of the state, but he kept a glass framed picture of the Dear Leader on the wall of his hovel and he shone that frame every day and hung it straight, even though he and his family were dying of hunger. This is the nightmare of totalitarian dictatorship.........."

Apologies for taking your quote out of context but I have seen the same in Thailand, except it was not on television.....

No more can be said.

I can't recall if it was a picture of Thaksin or not.

[tlansford]

Very interesting that now the UDD is being called "commies" and "Maoists". In earlier threads they were called rightwing nationalists.

How about a bit of reality and the acceptance that the UDD is an umbrella group comprising multiple groups with divergent political and social views that are united by one political goal, which is to see Thailand freed from the political interference and control of entrenched power groups such as the military?

I also note an interesting historical parallel. 30 yeas ago Canada repatriated its constitution. At the time Canada's constitution was legally controlled in the UK. When the PM of the day launched his initiative, which also included a Charter of Rights, there was serious opposition. Oh no the Conservative party screamed you can't do that, it's criminal, it's wrong blah blah blah. 30 years later, those changes and the Charter of Rights are considered cornerstones of the country's autonomy and judicial process. Thailand's current attempts to remove some of the most egregious avenues for meddling by non elected groups really is no different in concept, save for the fact that it really doesn't change much. The current claims about infringing uon the role of the monarch are spurious and are raised because the opponents really do not have the moral, nor legal basis with which to oppose the changes.

Good stuff and spot on.

Thailand is in transition, or at least the process has started and I doubt can be stopped.

There will be a few "interesting" years ahead but that genie called "awareness" cannot be put back into the bottle.

The stage is being set as we speak and why not ??

The Thai people have a voice and they have the right to use it.

Equally, the C.C. have the power to make a very big mistake in the next few days and I hope they do not.

Let's see what happens.

I hope not, too.

I was tempted to try a bit of humor and plead for the CC to "not ruin the high-season", but the problem is that if they do, it won't be funny for a lot of people.

[Yunla]

Wisely spoken Yunla.

Thankyou!

Edited July 6, 2012 by Yunla

[Emptyset]

Good stuff and spot on.

Thailand is in transition, or at least the process has started and I doubt can be stopped.

There will be a few "interesting" years ahead but that genie called "awareness" cannot be put back into the bottle.

The stage is being set as we speak and why not ??

The Thai people have a voice and they have the right to use it.

Equally, the C.C. have the power to make a very big mistake in the next few days and I hope they do not.

Let's see what happens.

And in your eyes, what would be a very big mistake? I suppose it's the answer you don't want, whatever that may be,

Banning 280 MPs or whatever the number is would surely be a huge mistake. It could lead to much greater violent unrest, because there are no grounds for it. Question is, when will the court make the decision? If it's in August, there's also a no confidence debate, so maybe PT will dissolve the house before that to pre-empt the decision. Because if they lose MPs during the no confidence debate then they'll lose and the Dems can select AV again (assuming the parliament still have the necessary MPs for a quorum?). But maybe they'll dissolve the house, in which case the deciding factor will be the 111.

If PT lose their MPs and YL, a lot of people will probably desert them anyway because they'll figure if we stick with Thaksin we're just going to keep getting banned. Thaksin will probably choose Chaturon as leader of the new party - but how many of the 111 will go with him I'm not sure. Rumour has it that Somkid is trying to start a new party and get people from the 111 and perhaps PT defectors involved. So potentially it could be Somkid as PM with the Democrats in a coalition? That would work out pretty nicely for the amaat... because it's all legal and fair if they're properly elected in a nationwide vote.

However, the red shirt reaction to this will no doubt be furious.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Emptyset

[ThaiOats]

Very interesting that now the UDD is being called "commies" and "Maoists". In earlier threads they were called rightwing nationalists.

How about a bit of reality and the acceptance that the UDD is an umbrella group comprising multiple groups with divergent political and social views that are united by one political goal, which is to see Thailand freed from the political interference and control of entrenched power groups such as the military?

I also note an interesting historical parallel. 30 yeas ago Canada repatriated its constitution. At the time Canada's constitution was legally controlled in the UK. When the PM of the day launched his initiative, which also included a Charter of Rights, there was serious opposition. Oh no the Conservative party screamed you can't do that, it's criminal, it's wrong blah blah blah. 30 years later, those changes and the Charter of Rights are considered cornerstones of the country's autonomy and judicial process. Thailand's current attempts to remove some of the most egregious avenues for meddling by non elected groups really is no different in concept, save for the fact that it really doesn't change much. The current claims about infringing uon the role of the monarch are spurious and are raised because the opponents really do not have the moral, nor legal basis with which to oppose the changes.

Good stuff and spot on.

Thailand is in transition, or at least the process has started and I doubt can be stopped.

There will be a few "interesting" years ahead but that genie called "awareness" cannot be put back into the bottle.

The stage is being set as we speak and why not ??

The Thai people have a voice and they have the right to use it.

Equally, the C.C. have the power to make a very big mistake in the next few days and I hope they do not.

Let's see what happens.

And in your eyes, what would be a very big mistake? I suppose it's the answer you don't want, whatever that may be,

The big mistake would be to ban an elected party.

Clear enough ?

What if, and just what if they were indeed breaking the law and got disbanded? Would that still be a mistake or have you already concluded with your irrefutable understanding of Thai laws that they indeed have not broken any. You didnt leave an option in your statement that if they do disband the party, it must be a big mistake.

[ThaiOats]

Where do you get the idea that Hitler and Stalin are the PTP's " great heroes " ???

I am genuinely bemused by this assertion.

How Thaksin can be likened by some on here to, in no particular order, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, The loonie in Korea, Marcos, Mugabe or even Tony Blair is utterly beyond me, even after a few beers..........

And just for Gentleman Jim, i'm off to to put 3 kids, 4 puppies and a pile of ale in the car and drive home drunk.

I was comparing the intimidating dissidents at their homes thing, which 3rd Reich and Stalin both did. I was comparing their actions to PTP, 100% fit, but beyond that no I don't know if they were heroes I was using a dramatic flourish.

North Korea is another good example though. They have the big demagogic leader's face on red posters just like Thaksin. And serious rural poverty. I watched a program about a farmer in North Korea, he and his wife and kids were starving in a crumbling shack because of the state, but he kept a glass framed picture of the Dear Leader on the wall of his hovel and he shone that frame every day and hung it straight, even though he and his family were dying of hunger. This is the nightmare of totalitarian dictatorship. As I've said before I actually pray that Thailand will turnaround now and become prosperous and equal, I really love my Thai friends and their families more than I love my own sick old self. So when I compare PTP to these regimes I am saying not that I want this to be true, but that it is a warning from history, and we should look to democracy for the future and not dictatorship. When you see a crowd marching with one mans face on all their Tshirts, and wearing masks of that mans face, and holding placards with his face - that is dictatorship. Democratic parties don't generally go in for that kind of stuff because you would need all the cabinet ministers faces on the same tshirt as the PM. That is just one example. PTP also rule with very authoritarian one-party tendencies, they have no time for parliamentary give-and-take at all and it worries me a lot.

This is slightly better than television in Thailand.

At least no screaming soaps.............

"I watched a program about a farmer in North Korea, he and his wife and kids were starving in a crumbling shack because of the state, but he kept a glass framed picture of the Dear Leader on the wall of his hovel and he shone that frame every day and hung it straight, even though he and his family were dying of hunger. This is the nightmare of totalitarian dictatorship.........."

Apologies for taking your quote out of context but I have seen the same in Thailand, except it was not on television.....

No more can be said.

I can't recall if it was a picture of Thaksin or not.

I know what you're implying but lets not forget what happened in 1932 and who held power and how often it changed hands. I dont believe anyone who held political power had t-shirts with their face on it except Thaksin.

Your attempt to make the connection is futile and shame on you for making that comparison or connection.

[philw]

Where do you get the idea that Hitler and Stalin are the PTP's " great heroes " ???

I am genuinely bemused by this assertion.

How Thaksin can be likened by some on here to, in no particular order, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, The loonie in Korea, Marcos, Mugabe or even Tony Blair is utterly beyond me, even after a few beers..........

And just for Gentleman Jim, i'm off to to put 3 kids, 4 puppies and a pile of ale in the car and drive home drunk.

I was comparing the intimidating dissidents at their homes thing, which 3rd Reich and Stalin both did. I was comparing their actions to PTP, 100% fit, but beyond that no I don't know if they were heroes I was using a dramatic flourish.

North Korea is another good example though. They have the big demagogic leader's face on red posters just like Thaksin. And serious rural poverty. I watched a program about a farmer in North Korea, he and his wife and kids were starving in a crumbling shack because of the state, but he kept a glass framed picture of the Dear Leader on the wall of his hovel and he shone that frame every day and hung it straight, even though he and his family were dying of hunger. This is the nightmare of totalitarian dictatorship. As I've said before I actually pray that Thailand will turnaround now and become prosperous and equal, I really love my Thai friends and their families more than I love my own sick old self. So when I compare PTP to these regimes I am saying not that I want this to be true, but that it is a warning from history, and we should look to democracy for the future and not dictatorship. When you see a crowd marching with one mans face on all their Tshirts, and wearing masks of that mans face, and holding placards with his face - that is dictatorship. Democratic parties don't generally go in for that kind of stuff because you would need all the cabinet ministers faces on the same tshirt as the PM. That is just one example. PTP also rule with very authoritarian one-party tendencies, they have no time for parliamentary give-and-take at all and it worries me a lot.

This is slightly better than television in Thailand.

At least no screaming soaps.............

"I watched a program about a farmer in North Korea, he and his wife and kids were starving in a crumbling shack because of the state, but he kept a glass framed picture of the Dear Leader on the wall of his hovel and he shone that frame every day and hung it straight, even though he and his family were dying of hunger. This is the nightmare of totalitarian dictatorship.........."

Apologies for taking your quote out of context but I have seen the same in Thailand, except it was not on television.....

No more can be said.

I can't recall if it was a picture of Thaksin or not.

I know what you're implying but lets not forget what happened in 1932 and who held power and how often it changed hands. I dont believe anyone who held political power had t-shirts with their face on it except Thaksin.

Your attempt to make the connection is futile and shame on you for making that comparison or connection.

What connection ??

[Emptyset]

What if, and just what if they were indeed breaking the law and got disbanded? Would that still be a mistake or have you already concluded with your irrefutable understanding of Thai laws that they indeed have not broken any. You didnt leave an option in your statement that if they do disband the party, it must be a big mistake.

As has been pointed out by tlansford, it's obvious that they haven't broken any laws and the whole case is completely baseless. And furthermore the fact that the court accepted the case is in itself unconstitutional. I believe Thida is correct, the judges should resign for bypassing the legal procedures in accepting the case.

[phiphidon]

Where do you get the idea that Hitler and Stalin are the PTP's " great heroes " ???

I am genuinely bemused by this assertion.

How Thaksin can be likened by some on here to, in no particular order, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, The loonie in Korea, Marcos, Mugabe or even Tony Blair is utterly beyond me, even after a few beers..........

And just for Gentleman Jim, i'm off to to put 3 kids, 4 puppies and a pile of ale in the car and drive home drunk.

I was comparing the intimidating dissidents at their homes thing, which 3rd Reich and Stalin both did. I was comparing their actions to PTP, 100% fit, but beyond that no I don't know if they were heroes I was using a dramatic flourish.

North Korea is another good example though. They have the big demagogic leader's face on red posters just like Thaksin. And serious rural poverty. I watched a program about a farmer in North Korea, he and his wife and kids were starving in a crumbling shack because of the state, but he kept a glass framed picture of the Dear Leader on the wall of his hovel and he shone that frame every day and hung it straight, even though he and his family were dying of hunger. This is the nightmare of totalitarian dictatorship. As I've said before I actually pray that Thailand will turnaround now and become prosperous and equal, I really love my Thai friends and their families more than I love my own sick old self. So when I compare PTP to these regimes I am saying not that I want this to be true, but that it is a warning from history, and we should look to democracy for the future and not dictatorship. When you see a crowd marching with one mans face on all their Tshirts, and wearing masks of that mans face, and holding placards with his face - that is dictatorship. Democratic parties don't generally go in for that kind of stuff because you would need all the cabinet ministers faces on the same tshirt as the PM. That is just one example. PTP also rule with very authoritarian one-party tendencies, they have no time for parliamentary give-and-take at all and it worries me a lot.

This is slightly better than television in Thailand.

At least no screaming soaps.............

"I watched a program about a farmer in North Korea, he and his wife and kids were starving in a crumbling shack because of the state, but he kept a glass framed picture of the Dear Leader on the wall of his hovel and he shone that frame every day and hung it straight, even though he and his family were dying of hunger. This is the nightmare of totalitarian dictatorship.........."

Apologies for taking your quote out of context but I have seen the same in Thailand, except it was not on television.....

No more can be said.

I can't recall if it was a picture of Thaksin or not.

I had exactly the same thought but then decided discretion being the best part of the wrong end of the law didn't post and certainly not as eloquently..............

Edited July 6, 2012 by phiphidon

[ThaiOats]

What if, and just what if they were indeed breaking the law and got disbanded? Would that still be a mistake or have you already concluded with your irrefutable understanding of Thai laws that they indeed have not broken any. You didnt leave an option in your statement that if they do disband the party, it must be a big mistake.

As has been pointed out by tlansford, it's obvious that they haven't broken any laws and the whole case is completely baseless. And furthermore the fact that the court accepted the case is in itself unconstitutional. I believe Thida is correct, the judges should resign for bypassing the legal procedures in accepting the case.

Is Tlansford a Thai lawyer and KNOWS for a fact or is it perhaps just his opinion? Not very obvious.

As for your belief that Thida being correct, I'm not going to say whether it's wrong or right. Just keep in mind that it's being disputed in court right now and best to wait and accept the answers. I'm willing to accept whatever answer comes out.

[ThaiOats]

[quote name='philw' timestamp='1341583166'

This is slightly better than television in Thailand.

At least no screaming soaps.............

"I watched a program about a farmer in North Korea, he and his wife and kids were starving in a crumbling shack because of the state, but he kept a glass framed picture of the Dear Leader on the wall of his hovel and he shone that frame every day and hung it straight, even though he and his family were dying of hunger. This is the nightmare of totalitarian dictatorship.........."

Apologies for taking your quote out of context but I have seen the same in Thailand, except it was not on television.....

No more can be said.

I can't recall if it was a picture of Thaksin or not.

I know what you're implying but lets not forget what happened in 1932 and who held power and how often it changed hands. I dont believe anyone who held political power had t-shirts with their face on it except Thaksin.

Your attempt to make the connection is futile and shame on you for making that comparison or connection.

What connection ??

Your last two sentences in regards to Yunla's post. Unless you'd like to tell me whose picture you've seen hanging on the wall to clear up my misconceptions. But I think you'll adhere to your 'nothing more can be said' part. So lets leave it at that.

[philw]

Thaioats, I think it could have been the picture of an elected Prime Minister, some have been popularly elected, I believe...............

Any other misconceptions I can help with ?

[Emptyset]

Yes. And their precious PTP have been in power for a year. Their precious Yingluck has avoided almost all debates in parliament, voted on 10% of motions during her visits, and her visits are very very very rare indeed. The number of bills passed by PTP in the last year are shamefully small, and none of them actually fundamentally improve infrastructure, education or anything long-term that would lead to long lasting improvements for the rural people you are talking about. We have been given short term eye-candy, like little drug fixes but no actual long-term reform agenda.

Wonder how the number of bills passed by PT compares with the number the Democrats passed in their first year? Not that it really matters, quality is more important than quantity. I'd agree that PT have no major achievements yet (but certainly at least one major screwup) - but we're judging things on a national level, from newspaper clippings. The grassroots may perceive things differently. Perhaps PT MPs may be working for them and improving their lives in ways we don't know about. Perhaps.

My point is that PTP is an crime-oligarchy and Thaksin is a dictator, not a communist but a modern corporate hybrid who uses maoist agrarian populism (redmob speeches on television and stage 2009/10/11 was very Maoist - down with the elites, burn the decadent capital, power to the farmers etc.) and ultimately just like Mao he never had any intention of making the poor rural people affluent or educated because then they would have no further need for his shady gang any more. PTP have not helped the redmob at all. Thats why the redmob are still angry. And that is what Thaksin wants.

Yes and it's a point that you seem to make fairly often in your posts. I find it pure hyperbole. Reminds me of PAD sympathiser ajarn Banjerd who said that Thaksin was actually worse than Hitler, because at least Hitler did some good things for his people. Why keep comparing Thaksin's rhetoric to that of Mao? It's typical for a populist of any stripe to oppose the elite and the people (for instance, both the Occupy movement and the Tea Party use the same rhetorical oppositions). I am ambivalent about this.

I don't think the average UDD supporter is angry because of what PT has or hasn't done... yet. Of course, they might be angry at PT if these reconcilliation bills actually pass. But of course, the amaat keep giving them new reasons to get worked up, with stupid moves like this court thing. Perhaps you're right, some of the anger which arises from their structural position in society might be sublimated into anger at the amaat, when in the final analysis, they should be angry at their own government for not moving fast enough on measures to reduce inequality. I believe this will happen eventually if people just let this government govern. Of course, they might be fully aware of their position, and just want their votes to be taken seriously for once. A lot of their anger comes from people like you dismissing them as stupid and ignorant. As I said, these people are no longer downtrodden peons there only to be manipulated and patronized. They're aspirational, eager to learn about the world and ready to exercise their new found power*. Yes, Thaksin and PT are in politics to make money - for the most part, anyway - but people voted for them because Thaksin was smart enough to recognize these aspirations and craft policies that reflected this.

*see: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/04/19/opinion/Whatever-happened-to-the-gold-legged-frog-30127387.html

If you or I agree doesn't matter. The PTP agenda has got nothing to do with helping the poor rural people you are writing about (above). PTP agenda is about making the Shinawatras extremely wealthy (far more than today) and making them a permanent feature of the state landscape for generations. You can cheer them on iif you want. Wave your red clappers. Hold aloft your red-rimmed photos of the Great Leader and his Sister. I'll go and be sick in the meantime.

lol.

[whybother]

Banning 280 MPs or whatever the number is would surely be a huge mistake. It could lead to much greater violent unrest, because there are no grounds for it. Question is, when will the court make the decision? If it's in August, there's also a no confidence debate, so maybe PT will dissolve the house before that to pre-empt the decision. Because if they lose MPs during the no confidence debate then they'll lose and the Dems can select AV again (assuming the parliament still have the necessary MPs for a quorum?). But maybe they'll dissolve the house, in which case the deciding factor will be the 111.

If PT lose their MPs and YL, a lot of people will probably desert them anyway because they'll figure if we stick with Thaksin we're just going to keep getting banned. Thaksin will probably choose Chaturon as leader of the new party - but how many of the 111 will go with him I'm not sure. Rumour has it that Somkid is trying to start a new party and get people from the 111 and perhaps PT defectors involved. So potentially it could be Somkid as PM with the Democrats in a coalition? That would work out pretty nicely for the amaat... because it's all legal and fair if they're properly elected in a nationwide vote.

However, the red shirt reaction to this will no doubt be furious.

I don't think Yingluck would be banned, because she's not a party executive. So there will be no need to elect a new PM and therefore no new government.

Also, the PTP has a better majority than PPP had, and they're unlikely to have a faction defect. After by-elections, PTP may not have a clear majority, but their coalition will probably still be intact and that will give them a majority.

[Emptyset]

What if, and just what if they were indeed breaking the law and got disbanded? Would that still be a mistake or have you already concluded with your irrefutable understanding of Thai laws that they indeed have not broken any. You didnt leave an option in your statement that if they do disband the party, it must be a big mistake.

As has been pointed out by tlansford, it's obvious that they haven't broken any laws and the whole case is completely baseless. And furthermore the fact that the court accepted the case is in itself unconstitutional. I believe Thida is correct, the judges should resign for bypassing the legal procedures in accepting the case.

Is Tlansford a Thai lawyer and KNOWS for a fact or is it perhaps just his opinion? Not very obvious.

As for your belief that Thida being correct, I'm not going to say whether it's wrong or right. Just keep in mind that it's being disputed in court right now and best to wait and accept the answers. I'm willing to accept whatever answer comes out.

You don't need to be a lawyer to understand what's going on here. In fact, the proposed new amendment specifically prohibits changing the form of state. It also prohibits any changes to section 2 (e.g. the part concerning role of the monarchy etc) of the current constitution. So where are the grounds for a case which suggest that the constitutional drafters might change the form of state or change provisions regarding the monarchy?

[Buchholz]

What if, and just what if they were indeed breaking the law and got disbanded? Would that still be a mistake or have you already concluded with your irrefutable understanding of Thai laws that they indeed have not broken any. You didnt leave an option in your statement that if they do disband the party, it must be a big mistake.

As has been pointed out by tlansford, it's obvious that they haven't broken any laws and the whole case is completely baseless.

Are Pheu Thai Party MP's defending their actions in court or tlansford?

The case hasn't been decided yet.

Thank goodness, it's not up to an anonymous internet poster to decide if the PTP have or "haven't broken any laws."

.