Moving To Chiang Mai Soon And I'M Open For Any Tips

[villagefarang]

In my opinion it is all about your partner and little to do with anyone else. If you have a good partner and a strong relationship they won’t step out on you, regardless of opportunity, regardless of sex. If they do cheat there is something wrong with them, or the relationship, and not with members of the opposite sex. At least that is my opinion after living here for many years.

[eek]

Jelopi, you might find this interesting to watch. A farang couple who have newly arrived in Chiang Mai.

Havent watched all the episodes, but seems quite interesting so far.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

In my opinion it is all about your partner and little to do with anyone else. If you have a good partner and a strong relationship they won’t step out on you, regardless of opportunity, regardless of sex. If they do cheat there is something wrong with them, or the relationship, and not with members of the opposite sex. At least that is my opinion after living here for many years.

Define 'cheat' ?

[eek]

hey winnie, would like to offer my perspective on that one too please. I define cheating as doing something outside of your relationship that you know would be a betrayal of trust to your partner (and/or what you would hate your partner to do to you, with another person). Thus, if you have mutually agreed apon a certain amount leeway, etc, then what you do with the opposite sex in that regard isnt cheating (ie: even things like mutually agreeing on sex outside of the relationship).

[onthedarkside]

Sadly this topic has strayed way off the mark. Why do members really need to drag everyone down the same road. Cut it out or have your post removed.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Bad Eek! (Kidding; sorry for being involved in starting the diversion.. And you cast a wide net there.. )

Anyway I agree we need to get back on topic, so lets wait for some more questions or comments from Jelopi.

And I actually have a question for her: How did they hear about Chiang Mai, and make the decision to go live there for an extended period? And what came first, the wish to go live abroad, followed by a search for (a) suitable place(s), or did you learn about Chiang Mai (Or Thailand) specifically, and then develop the plan to come live here for a while?

Reason I ask is that we see Chiang Mai pop up in all kinds of lists of 'best cities', or 'places to retire', or 'retire on $<infintely_small_amount' and so on. Would like to see if people may see that and start packing their suitcases.

Edited July 18, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[TommoPhysicist]

Tommy said i cannot speak for farang men..in that light, can you really speak for farang women?

I prefer not to.

(Sorry, misread, thought you posted 'with' and not 'for' ....... Doh!)

Anyway, to the OP, don't worry, CM is a fine, fun and safe place to stay.

Edited July 18, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[sbk]

Tommy said i cannot speak for farang men..in that light, can you really speak for farang women?

I prefer not to.

(Sorry, misread, thought you posted 'with' and not 'for' ....... Doh!)

Anyway, to the OP, don't worry, CM is a fine, fun and safe place to stay.

Getting nasty about others will get you into trouble even in the Chiang Mai forum. I would suggest you heed the very public warning that was issued only a few posts up.

[onthedarkside]

As promised - posts way off the real topic are being removed .. one gone now, more on the way.

[Genericnic]

@Jelopi

Back on topic, you asked, "6. How much would it cost for classes to learn the Thai language?"

I highly recommend the Thai language program at Payap University. (http://ic.payap.ac.th/certificate/thai/about.php) It is not the cheapest option but it will give you the tools you need to learn to read, write, and speak Thai in a relatively short time. Even I, who was less studious that my fellow students, was able to learn the tones, basic reading and writing, and a good working vocabulary. I assume you two are more studious than I. LOL

It is an intensive program: 3 hours a day/5 days a week. Definitely not recommended for those that just want an Ed Visa to allow them to stay in the country.

As the others have said, welcome to Chiang Mai. It is a wonderful place with nice people, good food, and lots to do.

David

[uptheos]

Pointing your feet at some one is considered a insult by the Buddhist people.

I keep telling the young Thai's on the songtel that, but they take no notice.

[onthedarkside]

As promised - posts way off the real topic are being removed .. one gone now, more on the way.

And even more removed. Don't waste your time posting negative 'tips'

[TommoPhysicist]

Language school,

if you get a condo in Santhitham area, YMCA is at the end of the road, 2000bht for a 5 week course, mon, wed, fri for 2 hours each day.

Not a torture test like Payap or AUA.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

As promised - posts way off the real topic are being removed .. one gone now, more on the way.

And even more removed. Don't waste your time posting negative 'tips'

Positive tips.. Positive tips...

7. The best flight company from Canada is Cathay. Vancouver (or Tronto) direct to Hong Kong, then connect to Dragonair (Cathay subsidiary) direct to Chiang Mai. An alternative is Korean Air, who have direct flights into Chiang Mai from Seoul.

Also, shop at Tesco-Lotus. Anything you could possibly need as a freshy expat is sold in their stores. (I hope I can say this, let me state that I'm not a shareholder and am not Mr. Tesco or Mr. Lotus.)

Then, visit the Tiger Kingdom, tiger cubs are just the most precious and positive little beings around.

Edited July 18, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[jacktrip]

If you coming from a place like Canada or the US you should also be prepared for many of the annoyances in Thailand. Things are cheaper, however, you usually get what you pay for and the small annoyances can become irritating over time if you are not just on holiday and know you have to live with them. Some examples are:

- Mattresses that are only a couple inches thick and made of foam

- Internet, TV and electricity that cuts off

- Constantly swatting at, or keeping an eletric racket nearby, for mosquitos

- Food packages that don't open correctly and rip when you try, then don't seal

- Thin cushions on furniture and chairs, so you have to buy an extra cushion for decent padding

- Luxuries you may be used to like, razor blades or after shave at higher then western prices

- Coffee at over 10 $US a pound

- Sitting on hard seats to get that cheap train ticket

..and on and on. I could argue that Thailand is not really cheaper at all for many unless you cut lifestyle, but it depends on what you are used to. You do get to live in an exciting new place though, and that is something.

I think many of the people who move here end up running out of money because they start upgrading, and do not realize that it can cost the same as where they are moving from if they do this. Couple this with the impression that you can spend whatever you like because it's cheaper and it's easy to let your guard down.

Edited July 18, 2012 by jacktrip

[TommoPhysicist]

- Mattresses that are only a couple inches thick and made of foam

- Internet, TV and electricity that cuts off

- Constantly swatting at, or keeping an eletric racket nearby, for mosquitos

- Food packages that don't open correctly and rip when you try, then don't seal

- Thin cushions on furniture and chairs, so you have to buy an extra cushion for decent padding

- Luxuries you may be used to like, razor blades or after shave at higher then western prices

- Coffee at over 10 $US a pound

- Sitting on hard seats to get that cheap train ticket

1) Not had any mattress problem in guest-house or home.

2) Internet, best ever, power cut once a month for about an hour. I have a cheap UPS to solve that.

3) Mosquitoes don't bite after a while, or I have become immune to the poison.

4) I avoid packaged food.

5) We sit on the floor.

6) Not noticed they are any more expensive.

7) Coffee is cheap and plentiful, lots of the beans are organic and grown in the nearby mountains (Doi Suthep and Doi Saket)

8) I don't like the train, coach or fly.

Like I said, I think it's great here, but I guess some can find fault with anything.

Edited July 18, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[jacktrip]

- Mattresses that are only a couple inches thick and made of foam

- Internet, TV and electricity that cuts off

- Constantly swatting at, or keeping an eletric racket nearby, for mosquitos

- Food packages that don't open correctly and rip when you try, then don't seal

- Thin cushions on furniture and chairs, so you have to buy an extra cushion for decent padding

- Luxuries you may be used to like, razor blades or after shave at higher then western prices

- Coffee at over 10 $US a pound

- Sitting on hard seats to get that cheap train ticket

1) Not had any mattress problem in guest-house or home.

2) Internet, best ever, power cut once a month for about an hour. I have a cheap UPS to solve that.

3) Mosquitoes don't bite after a while, or I have become immune to the poison.

4) I avoid packaged food.

5) We sit on the floor.

6) Not noticed they are any more expensive.

7) Coffee is cheap and plentiful, lots of the beans are organic and grown in the nearby mountains (Doi Suthep and Doi Saket)

8) I don't like the train, coach or fly.

Like I said, I think it's great here, but I guess some can find fault with anything.

You sit on the the floor and the mosquitos don't bite you? do you practice yoga and tell them to go away? do you need to buy things like deodorant, or do you go all natural?

Edited July 18, 2012 by jacktrip

[Ulysses G.]

I could argue that Thailand is not really cheaper at all for many unless you cut lifestyle, but it depends on what you are used to.

I would argue that I have always had to change what I bought depending on where I was living. For example, lobster is cheap in Maine, but expensive in California. Smithfield hams are not expensive in Virginia, but they are out of state. When I was younger, Coors beer was cheap on the West coast, but quite expensive on the East coast. if you insist on buying all stuff imported from home Thailand is not so cheap, but if you adapt to where you are living it is very affordable to live a comfortable life.

[Gladiator]

Hi-Jack!

On the other hand.....

Depending where you lived on the NA continent... You don't get snowed in for many months of a year.

Don't have black flies to bite you when you go fishing on lakes.

Apart from occasional political strife don't have race or language issues.... learn some Thai....

Don't have tax problems.

Have cheap and diffrerent multi-cultural foods and Western if you want it.

Have a good 24/7 bus service and a good local airport.

Have a new way and look on life.

Make some good friends from around the world

Get an insight into Thai culture and Bhuddhsim.

Live in CM and experience the Oxbrixge of Thailand

Experience Loy Krathong... and other festivals

Drink interesting tea...

Are these tjhings not more important than a soft cushion,cheaper coffee, razor blades and shaving foam?

Ultimately ...We all have our choice as to where we want to be... No one and nowhere is perfect.

Where do you want to be?

Edited July 18, 2012 by Gladiator

[elektrified]

- Mattresses that are only a couple inches thick and made of foam

- Internet, TV and electricity that cuts off

- Constantly swatting at, or keeping an eletric racket nearby, for mosquitos

- Food packages that don't open correctly and rip when you try, then don't seal

- Thin cushions on furniture and chairs, so you have to buy an extra cushion for decent padding

- Luxuries you may be used to like, razor blades or after shave at higher then western prices

- Coffee at over 10 $US a pound

- Sitting on hard seats to get that cheap train ticket

1) Not had any mattress problem in guest-house or home.

2) Internet, best ever, power cut once a month for about an hour. I have a cheap UPS to solve that.

3) Mosquitoes don't bite after a while, or I have become immune to the poison.

4) I avoid packaged food.

5) We sit on the floor.

6) Not noticed they are any more expensive.

7) Coffee is cheap and plentiful, lots of the beans are organic and grown in the nearby mountains (Doi Suthep and Doi Saket)

8) I don't like the train, coach or fly.

Like I said, I think it's great here, but I guess some can find fault with anything.

I don't know about sitting on the floor? That sounds pretty uncomfortable. Just make sure you don't buy a mattress that costs less than 20K THB as it will most certainly be junk, uncomfortable and it won't last. We bought a Lotus brand for a guest room that was about 12K THB. It only lasted about 2 years before the mattress collapsed around the edges and now is a worthless piece of junk.

[hellodolly]

Hi-Jack!

On the other hand.....

Depending where you lived on the NA continent... You don't get snowed in for many months of a year.

Don't have black flies to bite you when you go fishing on lakes.

Apart from occasional political strife don't have race or language issues.... learn some Thai....

Don't have tax problems.

Have cheap and diffrerent multi-cultural foods and Western if you want it.

Have a good 24/7 bus service and a good local airport.

Have a new way and look on life.

Make some good friends from around the world

Get an insight into Thai culture and Bhuddhsim.

Live in CM and experience the Oxbrixge of Thailand

Experience Loy Krathong... and other festivals

Drink interesting tea...

Are these tjhings not more important than a soft cushion,cheaper coffee, razor blades and shaving foam?

Ultimately ...We all have our choice as to where we want to be... No one and nowhere is perfect.

Where do you want to be?

bang on except the 24/7 bus service.

[jacktrip]

Hi-Jack!

On the other hand.....

Depending where you lived on the NA continent... You don't get snowed in for many months of a year.

Don't have black flies to bite you when you go fishing on lakes.

Apart from occasional political strife don't have race or language issues.... learn some Thai....

Don't have tax problems.

Have cheap and diffrerent multi-cultural foods and Western if you want it.

Have a good 24/7 bus service and a good local airport.

Have a new way and look on life.

Make some good friends from around the world

Get an insight into Thai culture and Bhuddhsim.

Live in CM and experience the Oxbrixge of Thailand

Experience Loy Krathong... and other festivals

Drink interesting tea...

Are these things not more important than a soft cushion,cheaper coffee, razor blades and shaving foam?

Ultimately ...We all have our choice as to where we want to be... No one and nowhere is perfect.

Where do you want to be?

no, i don't like looking like crap and letting other people smell my stink, so i need shaving supplies and deodorant. i also need to have a hot shower every now and then. i had to sit by some hippy the other day who had not showered in weeks and stunk to high heaven, it almost made me sick.

if i had to smell like that and look that way i would rather miss the tea and loy krathong.

[Jelopi]

LOL. I liked Eek's post, I also appreciated Tommo's post how he has to beat women off him with a big pointy stick.

But let's skip back to what I think is the elephant in the room, which is that neither you or your boyfriend have every been to Thailand. Of course there is always a first time for everything, but if people at least holidayed here for a week or two then they have had their first impression, and a reasonable impression if they would feel comfortable living full time here. (Which may still turn out wrong, but having had feet on the ground remains better than Google)

Speaking from experience of having first-timers visit me in Thailand, I am always amazed how some people just 'click' with the place almost instantly, whereas others need a lot more time to start to feel comfortable, or never really get comfortable. It's not even the case that the most out-going, eager to try anything, can-do people necessarily click faster than those who are normally more cautious and reserved; there is absolutely no telling. From what you write you of course think that you will have an easier time adjusting, just be prepared that this may not be the case. So both of you have to be prepared to take thing as little slower when you find that the other isn't quite comfortable with the surroundings yet. It could potentially put a strain on the relatioship much more than any flirting by locals; heck, the more cautious partner will be scared to death of flirting locals. (Or tell him they all have Aids. )

So especially if this is a first plunge then you need a Plan B, and not feel like it's 'giving up' to actually move on to it. Stay flexible, don't commit to renting anything for a year from the get-go, live in a guesthouse or hotel for a couple weeks, then move on to something a bit more long term if you all still like the place. But if not, or feel that you like travel and exploring more than spending effort on rebuilding your lives, then just do so; move on, check out other parts of Thailand, other parts of Asia, or other parts of the world.

I see everyones concern, we aren't going to rent we've decided, for a while. I think we will be fine, we have been through a lot together. Moving to Thailand is much less drastic than our original plans of world travel. We really don't expect to be comfortable, if we wanted everything to be predictable we would stay home. I LOVE asian culture as does my boyfriend and we have always wanted to get to know it better so we really just want to dive in. We still have to learn about the healthcare and figure out the work permit issue whether that requires us to go to school or not cause I suspect I'd need a work permit to get the braces I want to get while I am there.

Telling him they have aids would've been a great idea haha but I'm pretty sure he read that considering he is reading this with me half the time. I'm not concerned though.

It seems much more sensible for us to come to Thailand and stay for a few months and if we like it then we can stay for how long we intended, instead of what some people do which is come for a month then leave to "think about it?" I don't know it seems like a waste of money to me. But you are right being flexible seems key, we'll treat it like a vacation for the first month then we will ease into the idea of a long stay.

[Jelopi]

We are in Canada now moving to Thailand in the fall. We are in our mid 20's. We haven't been to Thailand before, but that's how we like it

How do you know you will like it here to commit to moving here without checking it out first??? I'm just curious as sometimes (mostly on this website and this forum in particular) I hear people say that they are moving to Thailand even though they have never been here before. It can be quite a culture shock from that of the West and not for everyone. It is hot most of the time, there are millions of mosquitoes, packs of soi dogs running loose, questionable food handling/preparation, snakes, scorpions and centipedes that get in the house and garden, and on and on.

I consider myself pretty adventurous but I came to Thailand perhaps 12 times over a 17 year period of time before I decided to move here. I visited the European cities I lived in 3-5 times each before deciding to move to them. I'm not trying to discourage you in any way and think you will like Chiang Mai but really curious how a 20ish couple makes a decision like that.

We are the adventurous type, and hate how society has made it look difficult to live elsewhere and travel. We get VERY bored once we adjust to something. The only thing out of those things you listed that I'd have a problem with is the centipedes, which I heard are actually poisonous? But I'm sure it won't be much different from some of the animals here. I've lived in the mid-north of canada for a while and they have mosquitos nearly the size of birds, nothing some bug spray can't take care of and some nets. We want to experience everything the world has to offer, Thailand is just our first BIG move. We would also like to live in various locations in Europe ;D

[Jelopi]

Everything is affordable and great value for money providing the money is there to support it.

And yet, you can objectively say that it requires more funds to live in Zurich, Tokyo, Moscow or Shanghai. And it's not just because those are big expensive first world cities; most third world cities too are either more expensive or don't nearly provide the same value for money or standard of living at the same amount. Most African towns fall in that category too; the country may be messed up and poor beyond belief, but to live the regular expat lifestyle that we enjoy in Chiang Mai, you'd have to spend really a lot.

3 years ago a young couple from the States, friends of my daughter, both in they’re early 30s caught the bug and decided to live the dream in Chiang Mai. They’re aim was to stay for 15 years and perhaps retire here later on. But a few weeks ago, the guy lost his teaching job and his girlfriend who was running an online business work had dried up a year ago. They both had to return to Texas to live with relatives completely broke and the last I heard the couple had broken up.

That is a good argument for making sensible financial planning decisions in life, and I would agree with that. But it has nothing to do with Thailand being cheap or not. At any definition of 'cheap', this couple would need to make a lifestyle change. If this happened to them at any point in the past (let's say, Chiang Mai in 1985), they would still needed to make that same lifestyle change.

I have seen this happen over and over again. This couple are asking for tips regarding living in Chiang Mai, and my advice is; before they decide to plonk themselves in Thailand, first make sure that everything is well thought out, planned properly and above all, do some research on what they can do and can’t do under the Immigration laws, because there is a lot more involved to surviving long term in Thailand than many people believe, especially for such a young naive couple like these and I would tell them the same even if they were my own family.

Agreed. If they approach it as more of an extended gap year with a good Plan B (and Plan C) in place, along with proper health insurance they will be fine. Moving to a different spot on the globe for a while isn't rocket science either, these days.

Points taken, non the less we are trying to get everything figured and sorted out before we come. We don't mind if we get broke and have to come back, at least we tried. I've heard various things about health insurance, is that something you would get in Thailand or does it mean just having it set up from your home country or both?

[Jelopi]

Jelopi, regarding what men are saying about the flirt factor..

Maybe just mention to your partner that quite a lot of Thai women enjoy the flirt game (often without any desire to be with the man. I guess its an insecurity thing) and ask him how he would handle that and how it might make you feel. Work out some bounderies and whats ok and not ok (and guys will hit on you too, just that Thai guys are generally a bit more shy and the kind of girls that are used to Farangs, arent.)

Once youve had a discussion, then forget about it!

If you have a great guy, and a great partnership, a man with any real intelligence is going to see through the empty headed flattery techniques.

Ive always felt sad that there seems to be little "sisterhood" amongst a lot of Thai women with regards to men. I would hate to be a Thai woman and worry about my so-called best friend stabbing me in the back over a guy. You might get sized-up too. I hadnt even noticed women were doing that to me, until my bf pointed it out. Rather pathetic imo..but there you go.

Now thats just one negative aspect. Not ALL thai women are like that! If you are both happy. If your partner shows you respect. Then just take it in your stride.

To be honest, a lot of Thai women are quite intimidated by farang girls. You are the unknown quantity lol.

Most guys only fall for the drivel if they desperately need the ego boosting and havent had much attention in the past.

Just dont be looking out for it..dont let this negative talk plant a seed in your head, otherwise you might see things that arent even there!

As for just taking the plunge and moving here, its exactly what i did. No major regrets. Some things would have done differently. But im a taking the plunge kinda person, so that suited me fine!

There are MANY farang/farang couples living here (some who met here such as myself and my partner, and some who came together) and are very happy together.

Have a great time and look for the positives, but yes, as mentioned, just make sure you have a good backup plan finances wise.

Thank you for that. That is totally how I feel, I see NO problems at all with the flirt factor haha. He is a very smart guy and is happy with me, when he read about the flirting he laughed and mocked it in a way. He's a good looking guy with a big ego but even when he has dreams of other girls flirting with him he turns them down THAT is how faithful he is. Which is super impressive for me. I've been cheated on before and have dated guys who I knew would have cheated at the chance, but I don't feel like it's an issue with my boy now. If it was an issue I wouldn't be with him, thats way too much drama for me. I'm confident. It's nice hearing people say that it's not a bloody guarantee that someone will cheat. Luckily not all men are like that, if they were, the more intelligent women would just date each other!

All in all there is still nothing about moving to Chiang Mai that phases me ;D

[Jelopi]

Ive always felt sad that there seems to be little "sisterhood" amongst a lot of Thai women with regards to men. I would hate to be a Thai woman and worry about my so-called best friend stabbing me in the back over a guy. You might get sized-up too. I hadnt even noticed women were doing that to me, until my bf pointed it out. Rather pathetic imo..but there you go.

Now thats just one negative aspect. Not ALL thai women are like that! If you are both happy. If your partner shows you respect. Then just take it in your stride.

Almost every one of my wife's friends and relatives that felt they had a chance, gave it a go ........ from age 14 to age 50.

One night at a party I was sitting at a table, all girls, during the course of the evening they all managed to feel my leg, tell me their bf/husband didn't understand them, and tried to slip me their phone numbers. My wife has permanently banned her best friend from our house due to 'excessive interest'.

Once they got to know me, all the 'shyness' completely disappeared.

Eek, you're not a guy, you can't begin to understand how hit on, us 'decent?' white guys are. I don't make any pretense to be rich or handsome, but they just don't give up.

Most guys only fall for the drivel if they desperately need the ego boosting and havent had much attention in the past.

You are talking about almost every white guy in Thailand, suddenly we are the hunted instead of being the hunters.

That is really disturbing. Perhaps when I move there I'll make friends with other expats. That is very sad that Thai women would have such low self esteem as to act like that. I'm very glad my friends and family are nothing like that or they would all get tossed aside. Anyways I'm not concerned, he's a good man, and who's to say they won't all be hitting on me too?

[Jelopi]

Watching this thread, I'm headed out there in Sept and had a lot of the same questions. Right on!

Glad to help! ^.^

[Jelopi]

"4. Is there any tips in terms of etiquette as far as interacting with the locals? What should and shouldn't you do in your experiences?"

You should expect that some local Thai women will attempt to "steal" your boyfriend from you. Probably many. How you handle it is up to you. If this happens, do not take the law into your own hands. You may have to ignore the "politeness" recommendations in the guidebooks and make it clear that he is yours.

My guess is this will be your number one issue.

Wow really that is so weird 0_0

What kind of things do they try to do? I could see that bugging me but he is an incredibly faithful person, I'm not too sure how I'd react in a situation like that. Maybe I'll just permanently hang off his arm to let them know he's taken? That's just...so strange.

Well, the others have pretty much summed it up. My guess is unless your boyfriend has a deep religious conviction against infidelity (as opposed to just a social one) or simply finds Asian women unattractive, he will not be able to resist the temptation.

And, the reverse is not true. Young attractive farang women are all over Chiang Mai, and are not highly sought after by either Thai or farang men. So you will probably not get much attention from the opposite sex, other than your boyfriend.

I'm not saying your stay here can't work out, but as others have stated, Thai women will go after you boyfriend.

Hahah! I'm sorry that is totally ridiculous! You really think after thousands of years of evolution, that there aren't SOME men that have developed bigger brains than that? My guy is not religious and as far as I know doesn't find asians unattractive, but I know for a fact that he would never cheat let alone flirt or even wink at someone while with me, just like I wouldn't. He's not desperate. I don't know what kind of relationships everyone else is having, what is the point of even being in a relationship without trust, thats just drama that is unnecessary in life.

I really could care less if I get hit on or not while I am there, that is not why I am moving there, unlike the thousands of men that tend to flock there for that very reason. We are going for the culture and a change, we aren't going to party, he rarely ever drinks and I only go out with girls so I see no problems at all. The fact people are saying to watch my man is kind of insulting to my own judgement honestly. If I was with a guy who left me like that then good riddance, that is not someone I would want to be involved with. Anyways I am not concerned with him at all.

[Jelopi]

In my opinion it is all about your partner and little to do with anyone else. If you have a good partner and a strong relationship they won’t step out on you, regardless of opportunity, regardless of sex. If they do cheat there is something wrong with them, or the relationship, and not with members of the opposite sex. At least that is my opinion after living here for many years.

Thank you, yes I think thats a fair sum up of that issue.