Question About A "Wai"

[mangoman007]

Part 1:

-- I am 50+ years old. Farang. Lecturer at Chula (although no one knows it; I don't wear it on my sleeve like some do)

-- The head master of our kids school is a real hi-so type. Big family name etc. About 40 years old

When it comes to a wai, who "goes first". Does age trump social status? Does it really make any difference?

Part 2:

I am taking Thai classes. My "Kru" is 20 years younger than me. She knows I am a lecturer at Chula. But not hers

When it comes to a wai, who "goes first". Does her "teacher status" trump age? Does it really make any difference?

Thanks

[bkkjames]

Let them Wai you first. I tried it the other way around when meeting big wigs here, got me nothing other than asking myself questions about should I wai first of not. Now I have taken the decision process out of the equation, its much easier.

[notmyself]

Either way, I refuse to be involved in any sign which involves servitude. Before anyone starts to bang on about culture, would they be willing to treat women like chattel in a middle eastern country for example? Would they also accept FGM?

[bkkjames]

Either way, I refuse to be involved in any sign which involves servitude. Before anyone starts to bang on about culture, would they be willing to treat women like chattel in a middle eastern country for example? Would they also accept FGM?

Honestly, i tried it both ways and got no further ahead or behind. I give my wifes father a wai now and again to keep things civil at home, but the rest, nah, as long as they keep referring to me (and you) as FARANG, I will continue to not act like a Thai. Ko Jai Mai?

[Chittychangchang]

Just shake hands, no wai. They will respect you more.

[mca]

Just shake hands, no wai. They will respect you more.

I reckon an appropriate wai would mark you as a polite person who respects Thai culture. In my experience usually the only Thais who initiate a handshake with me are guys like my doctor who spent over half his life in the UK.

[notmyself]

Either way, I refuse to be involved in any sign which involves servitude. Before anyone starts to bang on about culture, would they be willing to treat women like chattel in a middle eastern country for example? Would they also accept FGM?

Honestly, i tried it both ways and got no further ahead or behind. I give my wifes father a wai now and again to keep things civil at home, but the rest, nah, as long as they keep referring to me (and you) as FARANG, I will continue to not act like a Thai. Ko Jai Mai?

Not bothered about farang myself. Just refuse to engage in actions or behaviour which indicate a standing of one human above or below another.

[Chittychangchang]

Just shake hands, no wai. They will respect you more.

I reckon an appropriate wai would mark you as a polite person who respects Thai culture. In my experience usually the only Thais who initiate a handshake with me are guys like my doctor who spent over half his life in the UK.

A farang teacher in Thailand is employed to teach English and farang cutoms only, Thais don't expect or want a Thai/farang teacher.

[mca]

Just shake hands, no wai. They will respect you more.

I reckon an appropriate wai would mark you as a polite person who respects Thai culture. In my experience usually the only Thais who initiate a handshake with me are guys like my doctor who spent over half his life in the UK.

A farang teacher in Thailand is employed to teach English and farang cutoms only, Thais don't expect or want a Thai/farang teacher.

Sorry I meant in general not specifically aimed at the OP. Apologies for the confusion.

[canuckamuck]

For the headmaster I would give on of those microsecond wais that you your hands almost don't connect before you put them down again. Just to get it out of the way. Unless you see him quite often, then I would leave it out. Eye contact and a smile mean more than the wai anyhow. One is contrived body language the other is natural.

I wouldn't wai the teacher, at least not often, but it would be smarter for you to have this conversation with her than with the trogs over here.

Edited July 26, 2012 by canuckamuck

[Semper]

Pretend that your a muslim, and shake hands.

[ajarnpot]

I think I understand this, 20 yr old female teacher, you njust need to convince her that she want s you , not the other way round, wai ing does not matter

[Kilgore Trout]

Just shake hands, no wai. They will respect you more.

Not all, but many Thais refuse to wai foreigners, or even to wai back when wai'd first. Some have even told me that its for Thai people not foreigners.

Perhaps we shouldn't shake hands with Thais then, its for westerners, not asians.....

I hear the same crap all the time, shaking hands, English language etc. is international; for everyone. Thai culture and language is for Thai people.

What a load of crap.

[yannic]

it is undisputable that many Thais think that Wais are for Thai's only. Some may think differently. But even if I integrate into the Thai culture, if I speak the language understand the culture etc. I am and will always be a Farang! I have decided for myself not to Wai to anyone. I am respectful in greating everyone, I am always smiling, even to the guards at work or at my condo. I ALWAYS say "thank you" if they open or hold me the door open. I usually nod my head and smile to any Wai. Only when a hand is offered I take it, I never offer the hand myself first.

I have a very good feeling in this. Be friendly, helpful and respectful and you will not have problems.

If it is for me, avoid the Wai, integrate into their culture but do not deny that you are a Farang!

[Trembly]

Without going into that Farang quagmire of to wai or not to wai . . .

In my experience ajahn status trumps anything else. If someone is your loogsit then that person wais you first out of ultimate respect for the fact that you're (supposed to be) imparting knowledge on them. Parents tend to accord similar respect to the teachers of their children, the logic being that the children are extensions of the parents and the parents should show respect to the people who are (supposed to be) educating their children.

When I was teaching a course to personnel at the Thai Navy HQ I had officers of flag rank wai-ing me, bringing me coffee and khrab ajahn-ing all over the place even though I am under 30 and look even younger. It was the first time I had encountered such deference from such people and I put it down to the fact that they were military and thus accustomed to deferring to the Officer Commanding of various postings or course instructors regardless of their own rank. However, when I was doing seminars for Thai government school teachers, many of whom were senior civil servants and old enough to be my parents, the same thing happened.

Without the ajahn-loogsit relationship normal social hierarchies apply.

Ultimately you can't go far wrong if you just trust your instincts about the person you are wai-ing or not wai-ing whilst still maintaining a modicum of courtesy. Only petty <deleted> get their knickers in a twist over minor social faux pas or honest mistakes.

I have views on wai-ing that may not fit very well with Thai society in general but I do think that the wai-ing the context of sincere knowledge exchange it quite a charming custom.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Trembly

[Morakot]

[Cut]

What an unpleasant reply. You might have a point, but why this terrible rudeness?

Edited July 26, 2012 by Morakot

[OxfordWill]

Unless you are speaking to them in Thai (and well, not just a "Good morning" and then switching to english) I would recommend avoiding it altogether. At your age you are going to be respected simply for being old and white, and there is unfortunately more potential for loss of face if you get things wrong, as a result of your "position" therein.

I think a handshake is probably best in your situation.

However, if you are speaking Thai to them socially then I would urge a different answer, but I think you would not be asking the question if you were, as the language is so tied into the whole idea of a hierarchy to begin with.

I would disagree with the idea that a wai is a gesture of servitude. In the west we are familiar with the idea of someone going to shake hands "first". The Thais just have a slightly more complicated version of that. The reality of it is that we kid ourselves back home that we are so modern and egalitarian, all the while judging those around us at alarming speeds.

Edited July 26, 2012 by OxfordWill

[Soutpeel]

To relate my experience when I first came to Thailand to work, we underwent "cultural sensitivity" training given by an external contracted company of real Thai culture experts, ie they were Thai ( and not self proclaimed as many of TV finest) and on the Wai debate, their perspective as follows:

Foreigners are not expected to Wai and the if Wai'ed, you can return the Wai if you so wish, but a nod of the head achieves the same effect...ie recognition/acknowlegment that the person has made the effort.

The nod of the head is the way I have proceeded over the last 10 years and appears to work with Thai nationals who are both "Junior and Senior" to me in the Thai "status" thing....In terms of my "seniors" they prefer a simple hello, how are you and shake of the hand on occasion

Therefore in conclusion, "Oxfordwill" post above is IMHO the most correct assessment of the situation

Edited July 26, 2012 by Soutpeel

[metisdead]

A rather rude and insulting post has been removed.

[bkkjames]

I dont have no arjun title in front of my name but the security guards at my building all wai at me and open the door, behind my back I am sure it's all farang this farang that....

people wai here out of default, because someone is old, wears a black jacket with some logo on it... ever seen a middle aged thai lady smile at anyone younger than herself here? it's all bitch this bitch that in a condescending tone, like hey I am 40 yrs old now and waited all my life to look important.

[villagefarang]

Mangoman, I don’t see anything wrong with asking the individuals involved, if you do it in a nice way. There are always exceptions to the rules in Thailand, so the ridged application of a rule without regard for extenuating circumstances may be counterproductive at times.

Age usually trumps social status but not always. It may depend on how much age difference or how much status difference. One person may tell you there is no need to wai them while another may be offended if you don’t. Personally I would wai my teacher unless it made her feel uncomfortable because of the age difference.

I often overhear my wife and other Thais asking about age, for example, when trying to decide who gets called Pee. If you are not sure, just ask them when no one is around.

Let me also say, I don’t see anything wrong with not using the Thai wai as a foreigner. It is not really expected or required of those from different cultures. I would feel awkward not returning the wais of those who wai me (depending of course on who it is) but that is a personal thing. For me, it also depends on whether you are interacting in Thai or English.

Edited July 26, 2012 by villagefarang

[Tywais]

I posted this several years ago so will repost it here. The full topic is here > Wai Oh Wai

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Pretty much every time this topic pops up it gets the same crowd.

1. Those who don't wai at anything

2. Those that only wai a certain category of people

3. The backpacker wai - wais everything, even the local soi dog.

4. The culturally aware, which appears to be a small minority.

I have been coming to Thailand for over 35 years, working here nearly 16 years and 99.9% of my interactions are with Thai, from the lowest class to the highest class you can imagine. I made/make an effort to know the culture and its' meaning to make my daily life more pleasant. I'm at a point where I instinctively know when, where and how to wai. Not to say that I don't occasionally make a faux pax, but when I do I usually realize it immediately and kick myself for a while for doing it (in other words, I should have known better).

I talked to a Thai ajarn friend of mine at the university regarding his thoughts on farangs and waiing or not waiing. First I asked if it was a tourist or a visiting professor and he did not return a wai, what would he think. His comment was he wouldn't think anything of it knowing the person is culturally unaware. Now he made a point though and used me as an example (as an analogy for the opposite farang group). He said if he was standing somewhere out of sight and saw a Thai approach me and waied me but I didn't return the wai, he would be quite upset.

The reason is he knows me, that I have been here a long time and understand the culture, I speak the language and have a Thai wife. In other words, there is no excuse for my behavior with this person. Same with some other Thais at the university, if you refuse to wai then you do not respect the culture or the people (again, if you have been here for an extended period and not the casual visitor).

Now these are highly educated Thais who make a distinction between the various farang categories. Now try to think of lessor educated Thais and I suspect their thoughts are a little less forgiving.

One last thing and that is waiing children. Some think it is never appropriate. My ajarn friend explained that he will return a wai to a child (he will not initiate it), his reasoning is if he doesn't the child will grow up thinking it is not important. In other words, he leads by example. Funny enough, seems I see more higher class Thais returning wais to kids then others.

Handshake vs wai. Yes, not the same thing in either meaning or effect. Though having said that, it seems I remember reading that the wai originated in the same fashion as the handshake. That is, it was to show your enemy you were not holding a weapon. I'm still trying to find the history and the where and why of how the wai started. My colleague believes it originated in India.

My 2 satangs.

[Tywais]

I'm going to give an example of something that showed me the importance of a wai.

In our moo bahn we have a mom & pop shop that I go to buy items regularly and have a good repoire with and they all know I'm an ajarn and refer to me by that. An elderly lady, in her 80's - the owner's mother, always sits out front minding the charcoal and ice. She always has a frown but I still will give her a smile whenever I see her. After a while she warmed up to me and would smile at me when she saw me.

One day as I started up the steps to the shop I looked over to my left and was startled seeing her wai me. My position was awkward to return the wai and I felt bad about not returning it. Afterwards, she was back to a frown and no more smiling at me. It bothered me enough (yes I'm a sensitive person) that I tried to think of a way to 'fix' this. Just going back and waiing her seemed too contrived so a short time later News Year arrived. First thing I did when I went to the store was walk right up to her, wai her and wished her a happy new year. Her eyes lit up and a big smile and waiied back as did the owners of the store. From then on she smiled whenever I came and we would wai each other.

My point is, that if you think Thais don't care, think again.

[h90]

Pretend that your a muslim, and shake hands.

no, bad idea....you get excluded from the drinking.....

[submaniac]

This guy here. He needs to be Wai'd. Thais find it culturally offensive if someone doesn't wai.

[Morakot]

This guy here. He needs to be Wai'd. Thais find it culturally offensive if someone doesn't wai.

It doesn't look properly done, IMHO. It looks more like some attempt of Tai Chi. Maybe as a clown one gets away with such a way to wai.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Morakot

[submaniac]

^^^^

He is the supreme overlord of the world. 9 Billion served. He gets to wai the way he wants, and we must obey him.

[Morakot]

^^^^

He is the supreme overlord of the world. 9 Billion served. He gets to wai the way he wants, and we must obey him.

Agreed -- in unity we must obey him for the better of this world. ^-^

Edited July 26, 2012 by Morakot

[canuckamuck]

I teach all my kids to wai kuhn Ronald, he has been a close friend for decades.

[submaniac]

^^^

good. good. Our master will be pleased.