What Would A Buddhist Do In This Situation?

[Tchooptip]

Haven't heard about this in Zoroastrianism, but the turtle story was the basis of the Voight-Kampff test in the famous opening scene of Blade Runner. It was designed to figure out who was a human and who was a replicant:

Holden: You're in a desert, walking along in the sand when...

Leon: Is this the test now?

Holden: Yes. You're in a desert, walking along in the sand when all of a sudden you look down and see a...

Leon: What one?

Holden: What?

Leon: What desert?

Holden: Doesn't make any difference what desert... its completely hypothetical.

Leon: But how come I'd be there?

Holden: Maybe you're fed up, maybe you want to be by yourself...who knows. So you look down and see a tortoise. It's crawling toward you...

Leon: A tortoise. What's that?

Holden: Know what a turtle is?

Leon: Of course.

Holden: Same thing.

Leon: I never seen a turtle.

He sees Holden's patience is wearing thin.

Leon: But I understand what you mean.

Holden: You reach down and flip the tortoise over on its back, Leon.

Keeping an eye on his subject, Holden notes the dials in the Voight-Kampff. One of the needles quivers slightly.

Leon: You make up these questions, Mr. Holden, or do they write 'em down for you?

Holden: The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over. But it can't. Not with out your help. But you're not helping.

Leon: Whatya means, I'm not helping?

Holden: I mean you're not helping! Why is that, Leon?

Holden looks hard at Leon, a hard piercing look. Leon is flushed with anger, breathing hard, it's a bad moment, he might erupt. Suddenly Holden grins disarmingly.

Holden: They're just questions, Leon. In answer to your query, they're written down for me. It's a test designed to provoke an emotional response.

Leon is glaring now, the blush subsides, his anger slightly diffused. Holden smiles cheerfully, very smooth.

Holden: Shall we continue?

Leon nods, still frowning, suspiciously.

Holden: Describe in single words. Only the good things that come to your mind. About your mother.

Leon: My mother... I'll tell you about my mother.

Seems to me that Buddhist or any religion, a person with empathy would help the turtle. Perhaps with the emphasis on compassion, Buddhists would be more likely to. If it was an ugly or dangerous animal - like a scorpion - many wouldn't, though. Many kids these days would just video the turtle dying and put the clip on Youtube.

Many kids these days would just video the turtle dying and put the clip on Youtube.

Maybe true...probably true because you write, "many kids these days" not "kid these days" on the other end from time immemorial "some" kids would have watch the turtle dying long before YouTube...and today...some kids would have proudly video helping the turtle and put the clip on YouTube.

[beautifulthailand99]

According to this link http://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/11/this-thanksgiving-feed-the-turkeys/ we would save the turtle.

"The Buddha in a former life was reborn as a Deer-king. He offers to substitute his own life for that of a pregnant doe who is about to give birth. In another previous lifetime, the Buddha sacrificed his own life to feed a starving tiger and her two cubs, who were trapped in the snow. He reasoned that it would be better to save three lives than to merely preserve his own. It is better to lose one’s own life than to kill another being."

The Buddha on Animal Rights.

“One must not deliberately kill any living creature either by committing the act oneself, instructing others to kill, or approving of or participating in acts of killing.

To completely abstain from the act of killing directly and indirectly, eat only pure vegetarian food.” ~ Buddhism

All beings-human or beast—
Love life and hate to die.
They fear most the butcher’s knife
Which slices and chops them piece-by-piece.
Instead of being cruel and mean,
Why not stop killing and cherish life? (Cherishing Life, I, 83)

[sabaijai]

Do you have a citation for this:

One must not deliberately kill any living creature either by committing the act oneself, instructing others to kill, or approving of or participating in acts of killing.

To completely abstain from the act of killing directly and indirectly, eat only pure vegetarian food.” ~ Buddhism

[beautifulthailand99]

No citation other than a quick google - maybe somebody more learned can shine light whether this is a false Buddha quote or not. The link below comes from an American University and seems to bear out the substance of the quote but they may all be fishing in the same google pond !

http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/BuddhismAnimalsVegetarian/Buddhism%20and%20Animal%20Rights.htm

[fabianfred]

Realise that all living is suffering and that the route to the end of suffering is knowing the Dhamma. Also realise that the soon the turtle will die and it's suffering will be at at an end and as it has no consciouness to follow the Buddha leave it to its fate and a quick end to further suffering. As Ajarn Chah said it is better not to be born....

Why no consciousness....it is a being existing within the 31 realms of samsara....all such beings are equal....all are capable of reaching Nibbana or even becoming Buddhas.

The Catholics like to say that animals do not have souls ( and therefore cannot go to heaven) ....which is why they don't consider it a sin to kill them...... wrong!

[beautifulthailand99]

Realise that all living is suffering and that the route to the end of suffering is knowing the Dhamma. Also realise that the soon the turtle will die and it's suffering will be at at an end and as it has no consciouness to follow the Buddha leave it to its fate and a quick end to further suffering. As Ajarn Chah said it is better not to be born....

Why no consciousness....it is a being existing within the 31 realms of samsara....all such beings are equal....all are capable of reaching Nibbana or even becoming Buddhas.

The Catholics like to say that animals do not have souls ( and therefore cannot go to heaven) ....which is why they don't consider it a sin to kill them...... wrong!

I defer to your greater knowledge of the scriptures Fabianfred - anyaway I was guessing at he answer using my deluded mind and regardless of this I should have allowed my common sense compassion once alerted to the turtle's suffering - to quickly turn it over and see it on it's merry way. Had the Buddha not had compassion for all living things I'm not sure I would have been much interested in following him anyways. Thanks for your response.

[rockyysdt]

Realise that all living is suffering and that the route to the end of suffering is knowing the Dhamma. Also realise that the soon the turtle will die and it's suffering will be at at an end and as it has no consciouness to follow the Buddha leave it to its fate and a quick end to further suffering. As Ajarn Chah said it is better not to be born....

Hi B T.

I'm not sure what the context of Ajahn Chah's statement (is better not to be born....) was.

I'm thinking that it is better not to be re born, through the process of Awakening.

If one believes in the interpretation that Re Birth is "person to person, or being to being", then one could easily fall into logic that ending an unfavorable birth is a good thing, but the downside might be starting all over again through the generation of a similar re birth until the Kharma/Vipaka has been expended.

The other consideration is that if one doesn't flip the turtle over one is displaying a lack of compassion and empathy for another creature.

This can harden ones heart and affect their own progress by setting up a mind set in which one is selfish or self consumed.

The Buddha responded to Ananda that compassion for others was everything.

[beautifulthailand99]

Realise that all living is suffering and that the route to the end of suffering is knowing the Dhamma. Also realise that the soon the turtle will die and it's suffering will be at at an end and as it has no consciouness to follow the Buddha leave it to its fate and a quick end to further suffering. As Ajarn Chah said it is better not to be born....

Hi B T.

I'm not sure what the context of Ajahn Chah's statement (is better not to be born....) was.

I'm thinking that it is better not to be re born, through the process of Awakening.

If one believes in the interpretation that Re Birth is "person to person, or being to being", then one could easily fall into logic that ending an unfavorable birth is a good thing, but the downside might be starting all over again through the generation of a similar re birth until the Kharma/Vipaka has been expended.

The other consideration is that if one doesn't flip the turtle over one is displaying a lack of compassion and empathy for another creature.

This can harden ones heart and affect their own progress by setting up a mind set in which one is selfish or self consumed.

The Buddha responded to Ananda that compassion for others was everything.

Thanks for the fulsome response rocky - the Ajarn Chah qoute is

Our birth and death are just one thing. You can’t have one without the other. It’s a little funny to see how at a death people are so tearful and sad, and at a birth how happy and delighted. It’s delusion. I think that if you really want to cry, then it would be better to do so when someone’s born. Cry at the root, for if there were no birth, there would be no death. Can you understand this?

http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/No_Ajahn_Chah:_Reflections

[A1Str8]

... everyone would help... people like to help others, thats the human default setting...

maybe you want to discuss, if one should consider this bad luck of falling onto the back as the turtles fate and accept that - and not intervene with fate...

but part of the turtles fate is also YOU, who came along...

But if helping each other is default setting then how we still manage not to care about each other?

[rockyysdt]

Realise that all living is suffering and that the route to the end of suffering is knowing the Dhamma. Also realise that the soon the turtle will die and it's suffering will be at at an end and as it has no consciouness to follow the Buddha leave it to its fate and a quick end to further suffering. As Ajarn Chah said it is better not to be born....

Hi B T.

I'm not sure what the context of Ajahn Chah's statement (is better not to be born....) was.

I'm thinking that it is better not to be re born, through the process of Awakening.

If one believes in the interpretation that Re Birth is "person to person, or being to being", then one could easily fall into logic that ending an unfavorable birth is a good thing, but the downside might be starting all over again through the generation of a similar re birth until the Kharma/Vipaka has been expended.

The other consideration is that if one doesn't flip the turtle over one is displaying a lack of compassion and empathy for another creature.

This can harden ones heart and affect their own progress by setting up a mind set in which one is selfish or self consumed.

The Buddha responded to Ananda that compassion for others was everything.

Thanks for the fulsome response rocky - the Ajarn Chah qoute is

Our birth and death are just one thing. You can’t have one without the other. It’s a little funny to see how at a death people are so tearful and sad, and at a birth how happy and delighted. It’s delusion. I think that if you really want to cry, then it would be better to do so when someone’s born. Cry at the root, for if there were no birth, there would be no death. Can you understand this?

http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/No_Ajahn_Chah:_Reflections

Thanks B T.

We really have to be careful at how such teachings can influence our lives.

Japanese soldiers during WW2 may have been influenced by such thought when they eradicated large populations.

When questioned, the Buddha never explained what Nibbhana was.

In terms of Re Birth, Buddhists are divided as to whether this is:

"Moment to Moment, and that realms are mind states, and Mara is a Metaphor for evil & greed", and that Awakening is the very best a human can aspire to.

Or both,

"Moment to Moment, & Entity to Entity, a form of reincarnation (Re Birth) involving a lineage of many lives, with many realms of existence.

Our job is to practice the 8 fold path in which we develop our levels of awareness, and through this, eventually, actually experience things as they really are.

What Awakening turns out to be will be.

Imagine, killing yourself only to find this life was it, in terms of 'You"!

It's like a Religious advocate who hangs his hat on life after death (could end up with a nasty surprise in the end).

Much better to practice, improving this life to its very best and everything else (whatever it may be) will fall into place.

Edited October 6, 2013 by rockyysdt

[ChrisB87]

Realise that all living is suffering and that the route to the end of suffering is knowing the Dhamma. Also realise that the soon the turtle will die and it's suffering will be at at an end and as it has no consciouness to follow the Buddha leave it to its fate and a quick end to further suffering. As Ajarn Chah said it is better not to be born....

Hi B T.

I'm not sure what the context of Ajahn Chah's statement (is better not to be born....) was.

I'm thinking that it is better not to be re born, through the process of Awakening.

If one believes in the interpretation that Re Birth is "person to person, or being to being", then one could easily fall into logic that ending an unfavorable birth is a good thing, but the downside might be starting all over again through the generation of a similar re birth until the Kharma/Vipaka has been expended.

The other consideration is that if one doesn't flip the turtle over one is displaying a lack of compassion and empathy for another creature.

This can harden ones heart and affect their own progress by setting up a mind set in which one is selfish or self consumed.

The Buddha responded to Ananda that compassion for others was everything.

Thanks for the fulsome response rocky - the Ajarn Chah qoute is

Our birth and death are just one thing. You can’t have one without the other. It’s a little funny to see how at a death people are so tearful and sad, and at a birth how happy and delighted. It’s delusion. I think that if you really want to cry, then it would be better to do so when someone’s born. Cry at the root, for if there were no birth, there would be no death. Can you understand this?

http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/No_Ajahn_Chah:_Reflections

It sounds from this excerpt that Ahan Chah is talking about the birth and death of our physical structure.

However, I'm sure he often spoke of the birth and death our mind experiences continuously (reincarnation). For example, when we crave for something, desire is born and therefore we are born into the realm of hell. From this point-of-view it is definitely better not to be born.

[rockyysdt]

Realise that all living is suffering and that the route to the end of suffering is knowing the Dhamma. Also realise that the soon the turtle will die and it's suffering will be at at an end and as it has no consciouness to follow the Buddha leave it to its fate and a quick end to further suffering. As Ajarn Chah said it is better not to be born....

Hi B T.

I'm not sure what the context of Ajahn Chah's statement (is better not to be born....) was.

I'm thinking that it is better not to be re born, through the process of Awakening.

If one believes in the interpretation that Re Birth is "person to person, or being to being", then one could easily fall into logic that ending an unfavorable birth is a good thing, but the downside might be starting all over again through the generation of a similar re birth until the Kharma/Vipaka has been expended.

The other consideration is that if one doesn't flip the turtle over one is displaying a lack of compassion and empathy for another creature.

This can harden ones heart and affect their own progress by setting up a mind set in which one is selfish or self consumed.

The Buddha responded to Ananda that compassion for others was everything.

Thanks for the fulsome response rocky - the Ajarn Chah qoute is

Our birth and death are just one thing. You can’t have one without the other. It’s a little funny to see how at a death people are so tearful and sad, and at a birth how happy and delighted. It’s delusion. I think that if you really want to cry, then it would be better to do so when someone’s born. Cry at the root, for if there were no birth, there would be no death. Can you understand this?

http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/No_Ajahn_Chah:_Reflections

It sounds from this excerpt that Ahan Chah is talking about the birth and death of our physical structure.

However, I'm sure he often spoke of the birth and death our mind experiences continuously (reincarnation). For example, when we crave for something, desire is born and therefore we are born into the realm of hell. From this point-of-view it is definitely better not to be born.

Precisely.

Not only does the Buddha convey his teaching succinctly, but he present it fits in such a way that those who believe in many lives and a Buddhist soul and re birth life to life, are given what they crave/believe to hear.

For those who live in the present, or practice to live in the present, it teaches moment to moment birth colored by craving, and mind realms created from this.

[anotheruser]

The Buddhists I know would pick the turtle up, put it in a pot and cook it and eat it.

[fabianfred]

The Buddhists I know would pick the turtle up, put it in a pot and cook it and eat it.

Then the Buddhists you know are not really Buddhists...because they do not practice what their teacher taught...they are just play acting.

[anotheruser]

The Buddhists I know would pick the turtle up, put it in a pot and cook it and eat it.

Then the Buddhists you know are not really Buddhists...because they do not practice what their teacher taught...they are just play acting.

Then I guess none of the Lao people in my area are Buddhists.

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[fabianfred]

One can tell oneself one is Buddhist... Perform the rituals and chanting.. Do the weekly merit making at the temple.... But if you are not bothering to keep the five precepts it is all just play acting.

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