Unlikely Vietnam Considers Gay Marriage

[News_Editor]

A gay Vietnamese man wears a red ribbon at a HIV/Aids awareness campaign in Hanoi on Nov. 27 (Photo: Reuters)

HANOI, Vietnam—Dinh Thi Hong Loan grasps her girlfriend’s hand, and the two gaze into each other’s love-struck eyes. Smiling, they talk about their upcoming wedding—how they will exchange rings and toast the beginning of their lives together.

The lesbians’ marriage ceremony in the Vietnamese capital won’t be officially recognized, but that could soon change. Vietnam’s communist government is now considering whether to allow same-sex couples to marry or legally register and receive rights—positioning the country to be the first in Asia to do so.

“Our love for each other is real and nothing changes regardless of whether the law is passed or not,†said Loan, 31. “But when it is passed, we will definitely go get registered. I can’t wait!â€

Even longtime gay-rights activists are stunned by the Justice Ministry’s proposal to include same-sex couples in its overhaul of the country’s marriage law. No one knows what form it will take or whether it will survive long enough to be debated before the National Assembly next year, but supporters say the fact that it’s even being considered is a victory in a region where simply being gay can result in jail sentences or whippings with a rattan cane.

“I think everyone is surprised,†said Vien Tanjung, an Indonesian gay-rights activist. “Even if it’s not successful it’s already making history. For me, personally, I think it’s going to go through.â€

Vietnam seems an unlikely champion of gay-rights issues. It is routinely lambasted by the international community over its dismal human rights record, often locking up political dissidents who call for democracy or religious freedom. Up until just a few years ago, homosexuality was labeled as a “social evil†alongside drug addiction and prostitution.

And Vietnam’s gay community itself was once so underground that few groups or meeting places existed. It was taboo to even talk about the issue.

But over the past five years, that’s slowly started to change. Vietnam’s state-run media, unable to write about politically sensitive topics or openly criticize the one-party government, have embraced the chance to explore gay issues. They have run lengthy newspaper stories and television broadcasts, including one live special that won a top award.

Video of Vietnam’s first publicized gay wedding went viral online in 2010, and a few other ceremonies followed, capturing widespread public attention. The Justice Ministry now says a legal framework is necessary because the courts do not know how to handle disputes between same-sex couples living together. The new law could provide rights such as owning property, inheriting and adopting children.

“I think, as far as human rights are concerned, it’s time for us to look at the reality,†Justice Minister Ha Hung Cuong said on Tuesday in an online chat broadcast on national TV and radio. “The number of homosexuals has mounted to hundreds of thousands. It’s not a small figure. They live together without registering marriage. They may own property. We, of course, have to handle these issues legally.â€

Globally, 11 countries have legalized same-sex marriage since the Netherlands became the first to do so in 2001. Only a few US states allow it, but President Barack Obama provided hope for many couples worldwide after announcing his support earlier this year.

The issue has remained largely off the table across Asia. In Thailand, many tourists see a vibrant gay, lesbian and transgender community, but it exists largely as part of the country’s lucrative entertainment industry, separated from politics and conservative Thai society.

Muslim-dominated nations such as Indonesia have strict laws against homosexuality. Sodomy can result in up to 20 years in jail and caning in Malaysia. But that has not stopped some from continuing to fight for more rights and visibility.

In Singapore, more than 15,000 people—double last year’s turnout—recently held up pink lights in a park at night to support acceptance of the community in a modern city-state where gay sex remains illegal, even though the law is not enforced.

In Taiwan, a 2003 bill to recognize same-sex marriage failed to receive enough support to make it law, though a lesbian couple is expected to tie the knot in August at a Buddhist monastery.

Vietnam will also hold its first public gay pride parade Aug. 5 in Hanoi. The country is socially conservative, but the government restricts the kind of politicized religious movements that typically push back against same-sex marriage in other countries. Gay pride events also seem to pose little threat to Communist Party’s dominance.

The same-sex marriage proposal still has several hurdles before it could become law. The Justice Ministry will consider opinions from the public along with government agencies before submitting its draft proposal to the National Assembly next May on whether to recommend same-sex marriage or some other type of legal recognition with rights. Then, it must be approved by a majority of parliament.

“Some people told me if Vietnam could legalize it, it would be very good example for other counties to follow,†said Le Quang Binh, head of the nonprofit Institute for Studies of Society, Economy and Environment, which is consulting on the marriage law. “People think that talking about it is a big step forward already … I hope it will lead to more openness or tolerance for gays and lesbians in Vietnam.â€

As for Vietnamese partners Loan and Nguyen Thi Chi, who share a one-room apartment down a narrow alley in Hanoi, they say their love and commitment is real, regardless of whether a law exists to recognize them when they marry next month. But they hope the new proposal will ease stigma that lingers around same-sex couples.

Chi, 20, knows the pain of discrimination all too well. She recently dropped out of college after being publicly outed by a note taped to one of her classroom doors saying she was “diseased.†She was harassed and bullied for a-year-and-a-half on campus until finally deciding that she had enough.

“Things must change,†she said. “Even though it was not a nice experience, more and more people are interested in knowing about the community. And the more people that know about it, the more people will have a different view on it.â€

Source: Irrawaddy.org

[tombkk]

Moving to gay forum.

[Jingthing]

Because of the communism thing they are not so much restricted by the Buddhism thing as Thailand in regards to a cultural problem with legalizing same sex marriage. Not saying it will pass soon but I think it will happen in Vietnam before Thailand. And that is a shame for Thailand.

The gay civil rights movement IS an international movement. I used to know gay Vietnamese in the U.S. who traveled to Vietnam and spread ideas of gay freedom there. Gay Freedom events may be totally commercialized and politically irrelevant now in some countries, but in many other countries they are still revolutionary civil rights events.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Jingthing

[tombkk]

I don't think that the reason why Thailand does not recognize same-sex marriage has to do with Buddhism. In fact, monks are known to have conducted religious ceremonies.

[Jingthing]

I don't think that the reason why Thailand does not recognize same-sex marriage has to do with Buddhism. In fact, monks are known to have conducted religious ceremonies.

I do think it does have to do with Buddhism in regards to changing the LAWS. Similar situation to why GAMBLING is not legal in Thailand. Edited August 5, 2012 by Jingthing

[hookedondhamma]

I don't think that the reason why Thailand does not recognize same-sex marriage has to do with Buddhism. In fact, monks are known to have conducted religious ceremonies.

I agree.

If the reason to not recognize same-sex marriage has anything to do with Buddhism, it has more to do with the insecurity of the person making that claim. From what I've studied and read, there is absolutely nothing with a negative connotation attached to gays in Buddhism, but a negative connotation attached latent sexual behavior one can accomplish by pushing morality under the carpet (Therevada canon), and that applies to everyone, of every type (gays, straights, teletubbies ;-), etc.). edit* there is a word called pan.daka in the canon that many interpret as a homosexual, but translation reveals it's a person who enjoys the act of oral pleasure - and that's just one of them - there are 4 other meanings as well, which can apply to both gays and/or straights.

Many monks I speak to have expressed their views, archaic and full of bravado like the reason gays weren't allowed in the military - it messes up the 'collective' unity (paraphrasing). But in reality that view is not supported in the Pali Canon, though many have taken it into their own domain and twisted it up.

But on another note, I find what you said interesting, Jingthing - could you explain more about it??

Edit* Jingthing updated his post (#5) , never mind :-)

Edited August 5, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[Jingthing]

Again, please open your eyes. With regard to the LAWS, again the LAWS, Thailand has a very DEEP traditionalist/conservative/theocratic bent and these traditions, this being a mostly Buddhist country, are rooted in Buddhism, at least as an excuse.

Consider what is illegal here:

Sex toys

Pornography

Gambling

Alcohol restrictions based on Buddhist holidays

No I am not saying a Buddhist country can't someday LEGALIZE same sex marriage under the law in a way that will always be impossible in an Islamist theocracy, just that it is an inhibiting cultural factor. So that's why I think Vietnam will be leading the way in Asean on this issue.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Jingthing

[hookedondhamma]

Again, please open your eyes. With regard to the LAWS, again the LAWS, Thailand has a very DEEP traditionalist/conservative/theocratic bent and these traditions, this being a mostly Buddhist country, are rooted in Buddhism, at least as an excuse.

Consider what is illegal here:

Sex toys

Pornography

Gambling

Alcohol restrictions based on Buddhist holidays

No I am not saying a Buddhist country can't someday LEGALIZE same sex marriage under the law in a way that will always be impossible in an Islamist theocracy, just that it is an inhibiting cultural factor. So that's why I think Vietnam will be leading the way in Asean on this issue.

This post made me think a bit:

no sex toys, pornography, but Pattaya and specialized massage venues?

gambling, but lotto tickets?

The face factor always gets me here, lol

Edited August 5, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[tombkk]

The laws are not made by the clerics. Buddhist teachings has nothing against gay people. That Thai politicians are not thinking of changing the law (at the moment) has nothing to do with the predominant religion, which happens to be Buddhism.

It is a political question, not a religious one.

[Jingthing]

The laws are not made by the clerics. Buddhist teachings has nothing against gay people. That Thai politicians are not thinking of changing the law (at the moment) has nothing to do with the predominant religion, which happens to be Buddhism.

It is a political question, not a religious one.

I calls them as I sees them. Religion and governmental structures are closely related in many countries, including Thailand. It is very naive to suggest religion, politics, and culture are cleanly separated here. They most definitely are not. OK, now, agree to disagree.

BTW, I also think you are probably wrong that there is nothing in Buddhist teachings against gay people. Is it not taught that homosexuality is sexual misconduct?

A very relevant snippet, I think:

Despite all this, in practice, Theravada Buddhist countries are not terribly open to homosexual practice. This has much to do with cultural norms, as well as the notion of karma, which remains strong in countries such as Thailand. From this viewpoint, a person's characteristics and situations are a result of past sins or good deeds. Homosexuality and other alternative forms of sexuality are often seen as karmic punishments for heterosexual misconduct in a past life. Thus far, the gay rights movement has not had great success in Theravada Buddhist countries.

http://www.religionf...ty/buddhism.htm Edited August 5, 2012 by Jingthing

[tombkk]

You didn't get my meaning. Whether or not politics and religion are intertwined, I doubt that Buddhism in Thailand is the force that rejects gay marriage. Did you ever hear any Thais say that gays shouldn't marry because it is against their understanding of Buddhist teaching?

Of course, as the website you linked, there are always people who work hard on interpretations of any religion to prove their anti-gay points. We do not need to adopt those viewpoints from the website (at least the Thai people don't, fortunately).

[Jingthing]

I think you are invested in defending Buddhism and are revealing a defensive personal bias. Again, the evidence is there and I guarantee you that if some Thai politician actually does have the courage to introduce same sex marriage legalization legislation that the pushback will come from religiously based cultural traditionalists. If the rose colored glasses please you, be my guest. It's academic anyway as for some weird reason gay activists in Thailand are practically non-existent. The action seems to be from the ladyboys and they have different issues.

[hookedondhamma]

The laws are not made by the clerics. Buddhist teachings has nothing against gay people. That Thai politicians are not thinking of changing the law (at the moment) has nothing to do with the predominant religion, which happens to be Buddhism.

It is a political question, not a religious one.

I calls them as I sees them. Religion and governmental structures are closely related in many countries, including Thailand. It is very naive to suggest religion, politics, and culture are cleanly separated here. They most definitely are not. OK, now, agree to disagree.

BTW, I also think you are probably wrong that there is nothing in Buddhist teachings against gay people. Is it not taught that homosexuality is sexual misconduct?

A very relevant snippet, I think:

Despite all this, in practice, Theravada Buddhist countries are not terribly open to homosexual practice. This has much to do with cultural norms, as well as the notion of karma, which remains strong in countries such as Thailand. From this viewpoint, a person's characteristics and situations are a result of past sins or good deeds. Homosexuality and other alternative forms of sexuality are often seen as karmic punishments for heterosexual misconduct in a past life. Thus far, the gay rights movement has not had great success in Theravada Buddhist countries.

http://www.religionf...ty/buddhism.htm

The homophobic are not terribly open to 'homosexual practice.' Lol, there is no distinction between homo and heterosexual practice in Buddhism, as those of us who are Buddhist practice without conventions such as that, as they don't exist.

Oh yes, I've seen my fair share of corrupt temples and monks, but it's on both sides as well.

Thai Buddhism is somewhat off from the teachings in the Pali canon if judging by the customs that go on in many of the temples here; much of what is not understood is re-interpreted and introduced to the new generation, meshing into the culture even more. Thai Buddhism is what it is. There are well-practiced temples that blow this designer Buddhism out of the water, but they are located away from the major cities and popular areas - as a result the public gets a different view, especially tourists who come to Thailand, entranced with 'Buddhist' tattoos and such.

Karma is a whole 'nother issue. I've heard explanations from those who want re-birth in a higher realm to those who want a re-birth in which wealth is imminent (sp?) - contrary to what the practice of Buddhism is about - the reaching of a state where there is no more re-birth, no more suffering and stress (which is inevitable taking the earlier two examples into consideration).

Sorry about that (it makes me cringe any time I hear anyone speak of gays recieving opposition in Buddhism - it's like one is putting their intellect to death, oh-so-slowly .... )

But back on topic, Buddhism is very much incorporated into the government. I'm not sure about other countries, but when you have monks who have undergone a sex-change to be a man, and then who are ordained by the same head monks who voice their opposing views on homosexuals in a jiwarn, one begins to wonder just how much Buddhism is in Thai Buddhism.

I think it's very possible that marriage of all types can come to fruition in Thailand - the tolerance for 'alternative lifestyle' (sorry for that, I cringed when I used it, just don't know what other word to use right now) seems fairly high (at immigration I was greeted by a lady with the most masculine voice I've ever heard), though it may be on a slow decline as Thailand is being conquered by Western ideals. That could possibly explain as to why it wouldn't be permitted here.

edit* fixed quote range

Edited August 5, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[Jingthing]

Again, compare to gambling legalization.

There are powerful forces who want to have casinos here.

But they can't. Why not? Strong conservative Buddhist culture in the deeply ingrained power structures in Thailand.

There is NO WAY I am buying the reason that Thailand doesn't have legal same sex marriage is to be blamed on westerners! If anything the exact opposite is true! Thais can see this is now happening in many countries all over the world, why not Thailand?

There is also MONEY to be made with legalization. Marriage ceremonies, household formations, gay tourism, etc.

I do think Thailand WILL have it, but they won't be the first in Asean.

My guestimate at this point is 20 years.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Jingthing

[tombkk]

I think you are invested in defending Buddhism and are revealing a defensive personal bias. Again, the evidence is there and I guarantee you that if some Thai politician actually does have the courage to introduce same sex marriage legalization legislation that the pushback will come from religiously based cultural traditionalists. If the rose colored glasses please you, be my guest. It's academic anyway as for some weird reason gay activists in Thailand are practically non-existent. The action seems to be from the ladyboys and they have different issues.

Thanks for your attempt at analyzing me and the defense and bias, as perceived by you. Quite interesting.

Where did you get the prediction that religious zealots will push back, rather then conservative minds? I do agree that it would need a courageous politician to bring gay marriage up in Thailand at this stage, but that certainly has nothing to do with how Buddhism is understood and practiced in Thailand. You just insist on blaming this on the religion, which simply does not apply.

Never mind how often you want to repeat it, or get personal with me.

[tombkk]

Again, compare to gambling legalization.

There are powerful forces who want to have casinos here.

But they can't. Why not? Strong conservative Buddhist culture in the deeply ingrained power structures in Thailand.

There is NO WAY I am buying the reason that Thailand doesn't have legal same sex marriage is to be blamed on westerners! If anything the exact opposite is true! Thais can see this is now happening in many countries all over the world, what not Thailand?

I do think Thailand WILL have it, but they won't be the first in Asean.

My guestimate at this point is 20 years.

Gambling is another discussion, off-topic here.

[Jingthing]

Like I said, we can agree to disagree. You have done absolutely nothing to change my perception of what's going on in Thailand related to this SOCIAL issue. Gay marriage being ONE of a number of social issues that deeply ingrained conservative Buddhist culture here is resistant about.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

BTW, I also think you are probably wrong that there is nothing in Buddhist teachings against gay people. Is it not taught that homosexuality is sexual misconduct?

NO, it is NOT "taught that homosexuality is sexual misconduct".

Homosexuality is sometimes seen as "karmic punishments for heterosexual misconduct in a past life" but that has NO connection with homosexuality being a sin, any more than being born poor is a sin - it is simply a punishment, for those who see it that way, that makes life more difficult.

[Jingthing]

BTW, I also think you are probably wrong that there is nothing in Buddhist teachings against gay people. Is it not taught that homosexuality is sexual misconduct?

NO, it is NOT "taught that homosexuality is sexual misconduct".

Homosexuality is sometimes seen as "karmic punishments for heterosexual misconduct in a past life" but that has NO connection with homosexuality being a sin, any more than being born poor is a sin - it is simply a punishment, for those who see it that way, that makes life more difficult.

This is why I don't like religions of any kind. Call it sexual misconduct. Call it punishment. Either way, sounds like guilt city, so who needs it?

[LeCharivari]

..... I guarantee you that if some Thai politician actually does have the courage to introduce same sex marriage legalization legislation that the pushback will come from religiously based cultural traditionalists..... It's academic anyway as for some weird reason gay activists in Thailand are practically non-existent. The action seems to be from the ladyboys and they have different issues.

As I have pointed out before*, sexual equality legislation (which would have included gay marriage) has ALREADY been introduced and debated here, twice, when the constitution was last reviewed. The first time it failed to be passed due to confusion over the inclusion of reference to a "third sex"; the second time, when it had been re-written to include attalaktangpet (sexual identity) instead it was passed by a majority of 60 out of 100 but it was rejected as Bills cannot be voted on twice in the same session. Not only was there NO "pushback ... from religiously based cultural traditionalists", but there was NO "pushback" at all even though the entire debate was televised.

Getting back to the original topic, I am a little surprised that Vietnam should be considered so "unlikely". Although homosexuality has been considered a "social evil" it has never been illegal there and Vietnam is one of the few countries in Asia to allow British subjects to register Civil Partnerships at the UK Embassy/High Commission with either a British or foreign (but not Vietnamese) partner.

* http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/555752-homophobia-and-prejudice-its-time-to-kill-the-hate-thai-opinion/

[LeCharivari]

This is why I don't like religions of any kind. Call it sexual misconduct. Call it punishment. Either way, sounds like guilt city, so who needs it?

It has NOTHING to do with "sexual misconduct" and NOTHING to do with "guilt". According to Buddhist teachings there's NOTHING wrong with being born gay, just as there's NOTHING wrong with being born poor, and NOTHING to feel "guilt" about.

Whether you "don't like religions of any kind" is irrelevant, although it may explain why you are trying to make gay marriage in Thailand a Buddhist issue when it very clearly is not and never has been.

[Jingthing]

This is why I don't like religions of any kind. Call it sexual misconduct. Call it punishment. Either way, sounds like guilt city, so who needs it?

It has NOTHING to do with "sexual misconduct" and NOTHING to do with "guilt". According to Buddhist teachings there's NOTHING wrong with being born gay, just as there's NOTHING wrong with being born poor, and NOTHING to feel "guilt" about.

Whether you "don't like religions of any kind" is irrelevant, although it may explain why you are trying to make gay marriage in Thailand a Buddhist issue when it very clearly is not and never has been.

There are different sects of Buddism, dear. The Dalai Lama has been clear in his sect, homosexuality is regarded as sexual misconduct and he feels there is no choice but to teach it as his religion dictates.

If there indeed is no pushback in Thailand against same sex marriage equality, so what are they waiting for? My prediction that Vietnam beats Thailand on this stands.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

This is why I don't like religions of any kind. Call it sexual misconduct. Call it punishment. Either way, sounds like guilt city, so who needs it?

It has NOTHING to do with "sexual misconduct" and NOTHING to do with "guilt". According to Buddhist teachings there's NOTHING wrong with being born gay, just as there's NOTHING wrong with being born poor, and NOTHING to feel "guilt" about.

Whether you "don't like religions of any kind" is irrelevant, although it may explain why you are trying to make gay marriage in Thailand a Buddhist issue when it very clearly is not and never has been.

There are different sects of Buddism, dear. The Dalai Lama has been clear in his sect, homosexuality is regarded as sexual misconduct and he feels there is no choice but to teach it as his religion dictates.

If there indeed is no pushback in Thailand against same sex marriage equality, so what are they waiting for? My prediction that Vietnam beats Thailand on this stands.

I agree with you that the Dalai Lama represents a different "sect" of Buddhism, Thailand has their own brand.

Of course there is a pushback in Thailand. But that's not because of the Thai brand of Buddhism.

[NomadJoe]

Again, please open your eyes. With regard to the LAWS, again the LAWS, Thailand has a very DEEP traditionalist/conservative/theocratic bent and these traditions, this being a mostly Buddhist country, are rooted in Buddhism, at least as an excuse.

Consider what is illegal here:

Sex toys

Pornography

Gambling

Alcohol restrictions based on Buddhist holidays

No I am not saying a Buddhist country can't someday LEGALIZE same sex marriage under the law in a way that will always be impossible in an Islamist theocracy, just that it is an inhibiting cultural factor. So that's why I think Vietnam will be leading the way in Asean on this issue.

Production and sale of pornography is illegal, purchasing and possessing is not, just FYI.

[LeCharivari]

There are different sects of Buddism, dear. The Dalai Lama has been clear in his sect, homosexuality is regarded as sexual misconduct and he feels there is no choice but to teach it as his religion dictates.

So what?

Even if you were correct the Dalai Lama has little relevance to Buddhism in Thailand, but , unsurprisingly, you are COMPLETELY WRONG about what the Dalai Lama has said. He has made it very clear, repeatedly, that there is NOTHING wrong either in his view or according to Buddhist teachings with homosexuality. As long ago as 1994 he said, in an interview with Out Magazine, that "If someone comes to me and asks whether homosexuality is okay or not, I will ask 'What is your companion's opinion?'. If you both agree, then I think I would say, 'If two males or two females voluntarily agree to have mutual satisfaction without further implication of harming others, then it is okay.'" ".

Two years later in his book Beyond Dogma, he said that "A sexual act is deemed proper when the couples use the organs intended for sexual intercourse and nothing else... Homosexuality, whether it is between men or between women, is not improper in itself. What is improper is the use of organs already defined as inappropriate for sexual contact."

His point was that homosexuality is NOT regarded as sexual misconduct - what is misconduct is ANYONE, gay or straight, using their organs in an "inappropriate way", and that includes hands and mouths. A year later he clarified things even further when he explained that this was a traditional Buddhist belief rather than one based on anything the Buddha had written, and that the term "sexual misconduct" and "some of the teachings" ... "may be specific to a particular cultural and historic context" and hence were open to both interpretation and review.

If there indeed is no pushback in Thailand against same sex marriage equality, so what are they waiting for?

"They" are "waiting" because marriage of any sort in Thailand simply isn't as important as it is elsewhere so its not a priority. Its a relatively recent formal institution and it confers very little of those things that those generally campaigning for "same sex marriage equality" see as important (tax, inheritance, hospital visitation, pensions, etc) that they either don't already have as a result of co-habitation or that nobody has. The only reason some of my in-laws have got married is because it makes getting visas to visit their husband's family abroad easier. If marriage generally isn't that big an issue then its difficult to make gay marriage that much of an issue either.

[onthemoon]

^ Not sure what you want to say. First you say that the Dalai Lama has little if any influence on Buddhism in Thailand, then you say he preaches to use the "missionary" position only. That's something he would not know anything about IMHO, but then, it has no impact on Thailand anyway.

So, what exactly was your point?

[Jingthing]

In any case, in Thailand we are dealing with an orthodox form of Buddhism. So it's very naive to assert that the very core of this culture won't have an impact on the rapidity that Thailand may adopt same sex marriage equality.

This link from 2005 has proved to be CORRECT in its prediction that gay marriage is NOT coming to Thailand anytime soon. Thai culture IS resistant to civil rights legislation of many kinds and Thai culture is deeply rooted in their kind of Buddhism.

I think eventually Thailand will have same sex marriage rights but it will just take longer. They will do so under influence from civil rights successes in other countries, typically inspired by GAY ACTIVISTS.

http://www.buddhistc...70,1429,0,0,1,0

This does not mean that Thai Buddhists are supportive of gay rights and homosexual marriage, or that liberal activists will be successful in their social campaign. Human rights issues have always received poor attention in Theravada countries, as the culture is rooted in the belief in the Law of Karma, which is more popular among Thai Buddhists than philosophical and advanced scriptural studies in Buddhism.

Many monasteries and monks advocate their lay followers to see the world through the lens of karma, i.e., every person is born to pay back their sins. According to their explanations, all homosexuals and sexual deviants were once offenders of the Third Precept (prohibiting sexual misconduct) _ at least in their past lives, and they must pay off their past sins in their present life. Therefore, they deserve all that society gives to them. This belief system creates strong conservative values in Theravada Buddhist culture. For these reasons, it is unlikely that Buddhists will easily approve a law to allow gay marriage. Gay and lesbian activists in Thailand will not be as successful as their fellows in European countries or Canada.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

In any case, in Thailand we are dealing with an orthodox form of Buddhism. So it's very naive to assert that the very core of this culture won't have an impact on the rapidity that Thailand may adopt same sex marriage equality.

This link from 2005 has proved to be CORRECT in its prediction that gay marriage is NOT coming to Thailand anytime soon. Thai culture IS resistant to civil rights legislation of many kinds and Thai culture is deeply rooted in their kind of Buddhism.

I think eventually Thailand will have same sex marriage rights but it will just take longer. They will do so under influence from civil rights successes in other countries, typically inspired by GAY ACTIVISTS.

Making a link between Theravadan Buddhism and the lack of gay marriage legislation in Thailand and then concluding that one is therefore the cause of the other is like saying that 99% of Thais have brown eyes and black hair, so because no countries where the majority of the population have brown eyes and black hair have gay marriage yet this must be the reason why Thailand has no such legislation.

There may be such a link, but there is NOTHING to indicate that such a link exists and every indication that it doesn't.

Your link, from 2005,has already been PROVED to be wrong in its predictions - in 2006 "Buddhists" DID "approve a law to allow gay marriage", with NO public outcry, NO objections and NO "pushback". FACT - IT HAPPENED.

You really do need to check your facts a bit more - and to read the opinions of those "gay activists" you bang on about ad nauseam who raised the issue when the last constitution was debated, who admitted that their initial insistence on including references to a "third sex" was why it failed to be passed initially, and who said when interviewed by the International gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission* that:

"Religion is not an important barrier here. The way Buddhism deals with sexuality is different. .... Islam and Christianity seem to promote a particular type of sexuality. In Buddhism, there’s no promoting of procreation and no Adam and Eve stories. We talk more about the cycle of life and death. .... Not to say Buddhism is not prejudiced because although there’s no singling out of one sexuality over another, there’s the underlying assumption that what is normal is heterosexual."

(Anjana Suvarnananda, founder of the Anjaree Foundation and Thailand's leading gay activist)

* http://www.iglhrc.org/cgi-bin/iowa/article/takeaction/partners/438.html

[LeCharivari]

.... Thai culture IS resistant to civil rights legislation of many kinds and Thai culture is deeply rooted in their kind of Buddhism.

I think eventually Thailand will have same sex marriage rights but it will just take longer. They will do so under influence from civil rights successes in other countries, typically inspired by GAY ACTIVISTS. ....

This view is NOT supported by the "civil rights legislation" introduced over the last decade which has been both far-reaching and introduced to highly popular political support, such as free medical cover for all, free education for 12 years, state pensions, higher minimum salaries, etc.

"Civil rights successes in other countries" had NO "influence" on their introduction in Thailand - these were introduced and are now supported by ALL Thai political parties because they are populist policies, popular with the majority of the population, and essential to winning any democratic election. Thailand is well ahead of the field with civil rights legislation both locally in Asia and globally - that some of that legislation has yet to be fully effective has nothing to do with any cultural or religious resistance, but is simply because the rich are resisting the emancipation of the poor.

The idea that the inevitable "gay activists" from "other countries" will have any effect on or "inspire" things here is as boring as it is laughable. Paisarn Likhitpreechakul and Anjana Suvarnananda, Thailand's leading LGBT campaigners, have already achieved considerable successes with specifically "Thai" LGBT issues and the National Human Rights Commission of Thailand has already raised the issue of LGBT rights, including at ASEAN in 2011. Thailand doesn't need any outside help with gay rights, and any such "influence" could be counter-productive.

[Jingthing]

Civil rights issues in Thailand.

Some include age discrimination.

Discrimination against handicapped.

Discrimination against the darker skinned.

Discrimination against hill tribes.

Discrimination against Muslims.

Discrimination against women.

Discrimination against transgendered.

Discrimination against homosexuals. Contrary to what was implied above, same sex marriage is not legal under the laws of Buddhist dominated Thailand.

A target rich environment.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Jingthing